Botched No-Knock Warrant Raid Leaves Woman Dead

[Vanoi]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-home-n1205651

A woman was shot and killed in her Louisville, Kentucky, home by police executing a "botched" search warrant who forced their way in, surprising the woman and her boyfriend who thought the officers were burglars, her family says in a lawsuit.

The lawsuit — filed by the family of the woman, Breonna Taylor, an EMT worker — says she and her boyfriend thought they were being burglarized and he fired at the officers in self-defense. The lawsuit accuses the three officers of "blindly firing" more than 20 shots into the apartment.

What i find odd about this is that the police were really looking bring down a trap house that was 10 miles away and yet also decided to include this house in the warrant even though they never observed any drug activity at that apartment. Also find it odd the police claim they knocked and announced themselves when they went out of their way to get a no-knock warrant so they wouldn't have to do that.

Walker has been charged for attempted murder for shooting at the police. Honestly think that charge needs to be dropped since there is legal precedent to do so in this specific case.


Real problem for me though is the no-knock warrants. This isn't even the first time an incident like this has taken place during a no-knock warrant. These warrants shouldn't be used as they endanger the lives of civilians and the officers having to conduct them.

[B. W.]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-home-n1205651



What i find odd about this is that the police were really looking bring down a trap house that was 10 miles away and yet also decided to include this house in the warrant even though they never observed any drug activity at that apartment. Also find it odd the police claim they knocked and announced themselves when they went out of their way to get a no-knock warrant so they wouldn't have to do that.

Walker has been charged for attempted murder for shooting at the police. Honestly think that charge needs to be dropped since there is legal precedent to do so in this specific case.


Real problem for me though is the no-knock warrants. This isn't even the first time an incident like this has taken place during a no-knock warrant. These warrants shouldn't be used as they endanger the lives of civilians and the officers having to conduct them.

I absolutely agree. No-knock warrants should be abolished. It is a battlefield wartime tactic and I think there is a good argument that they are unconstitutional.

Too much bad has come from them no matter how much law enforcement claims they are needed. In this day and age there are simply too many tools at the disposal of police to justify the use of these warrants, especially since this has happened so many times. Look at how many times people have been "swatted" by perps looking to hurt someone.

There is an open case in Houston where a narcotics detective used the same thing and several police and innocent people where killed. It turned out the detective was "dirty" and now hundreds of cases are going to be possibly overturned because of one bad apple.

When police engage in these activities they are at a heightened state of mental alarm and that, unfortunately leads to a lot of bad events. If someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night or anytime really, your first reaction isn't going to be "its Ok, it's just the police". The first reaction is to defend your life and property and therein lies the potential for mistakes on the part of police.

[Surgeon]

Actually cops do have to announce themselves when executing a no-knock warrant... after they've kicked your door in. How do you tell if it's cops busting in vs. an intruder shouting he's a cop? GLHF

I think in this case the cops were also in plain clothes and not wearing body cams. The entire thing just stinks.

[B. W.]

Actually cops do have to announce themselves when executing a no-knock warrant... after they've kicked your door in. How do you tell if it's cops busting in vs. an intruder shouting he's a cop? GLHF

I think in this case the cops were also in plain clothes and not wearing body cams. The entire thing just stinks.

It's a good point. I remember one dark and scary night when I was a young soldier. Me and another member of my unit were at our post and we knew someone else was out there and we worked our way towards one another as silently as we could. It was only at the last second when we showed our-self to each other, guns ready to fire that we realized who the other actually was. It was a split second decision. The thing that stopped us from shooting each other, I think, was the recognition of the uniform we were wearing. It was a heart pounding few moments but I'm glad I waited that fraction of a second before I pulled the trigger. and so was he. we argued later about who took up the wrong position, but that's another story.

In the real world, if someone kicks your door in, it can be safely assumed it is a bad guy...unless it isn't.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Looks like an absolute procedural up to me.

[B. W.]

According to the local postal inspector the police didn't even bother to confirm where the packages were being delivered.

The package should have been x-rayed to determine its contents before any warrants for arrest were issued. After that, the police should have been waiting to see who picked up the package and uniformed police should have been there to make the arrest in the middle of the day.

Personalty, I think this middle of the night BS is in most cases designed to elicit some sort of response. Why chance having a shootout in the dark? This is just crazy and poor police work.

[RedGuard]

it doesn't help that many cops are militarily trained, so their response to civilians shooting always seems to be fire back blindly and don't care what you hit- even though thats precisely what you aren't supposed to do in an urban environment.

the cops definitely weren't expecting the house to be prepared for a fight. So in effect, the no-knock warrant actually put them in more danger than a normal warrant would have.

but yeah I think the concept should be done away with completely

[B. W.]

it doesn't help that many cops are militarily trained, so their response to civilians shooting always seems to be fire back blindly and don't care what you hit- even though thats precisely what you aren't supposed to do in an urban environment.

the cops definitely weren't expecting the house to be prepared for a fight. So in effect, the no-knock warrant actually put them in more danger than a normal warrant would have.

but yeah I think the concept should be done away with completely

Military Police are not trained to fired back blindly. How often do you hear about a MP shooting someone. They are very target specific.

The problem is police training in some departments. I like the police, but one bad or stupid cop or a poorly run department with poor training gives a lot of good cops a bad name.

[Gaidin]

No knocks have their uses. They're legit. But they're used way too much. A properly planned operation has the operation actually executed for the last 2% of the operation. The rest of it is investigation, intelligence gathering, observation, and getting a warrant. You should be using no knock warrants to arrest suspects that are actual physical danger to the arresting teams. In other words, they'd be executing with a mostly career SWAT team that spends most of their time practicing tactics. They get used when someone's holding someone, but that's not what is getting discussed right now.

The same tactics shouldn't be used to keep someone from flushing drugs down the toilet. Why? Because if there's not enough drugs it takes them a short enough time to flush it down the toilet you're executing a search warrant to take down a drug ring on the wrong place. If there are enough drugs to take down the drug ring, you really don't need a dynamic entry to stop them from flushing all the drugs down the toilet anyway. Aside: You may need a dynamic entry for the kind of level of force they'll keep to keep storage of mass of drugs safe, much less to keep people from running, but that's different than saying "we want to keep people from destroying drugs".

Back to the beginning. We've found out that there were no drugs at Breonna Taylor's house. We've found out they were on the other side of town no less. Let's say you can justify a dynamic for something like this. How much time did you actually spend putting together this information saying where these drugs were and what kind of dealers would be at this place and exactly how dangerous they were that you would actually need a dynamic entry? LMPD spent so much time putting this information together that they got it in the wrong place no less. Nevermind they probably don't know just how much level of force they actually needed for this.

[B. W.]

No knocks have their uses. They're legit. But they're used way too much. A properly planned operation has the operation actually executed for the last 2% of the operation. The rest of it is investigation, intelligence gathering, observation, and getting a warrant. You should be using no knock warrants to arrest suspects that are actual physical danger to the arresting teams. In other words, they'd be executing with a mostly career SWAT team that spends most of their time practicing tactics. They get used when someone's holding someone, but that's not what is getting discussed right now.

The same tactics shouldn't be used to keep someone from flushing drugs down the toilet. Why? Because if there's not enough drugs it takes them a short enough time to flush it down the toilet you're executing a search warrant to take down a drug ring on the wrong place. If there are enough drugs to take down the drug ring, you really don't need a dynamic entry to stop them from flushing all the drugs down the toilet anyway. Aside: You may need a dynamic entry for the kind of level of force they'll keep to keep storage of mass of drugs safe, much less to keep people from running, but that's different than saying "we want to keep people from destroying drugs".

Back to the beginning. We've found out that there were no drugs at Breonna Taylor's house. We've found out they were on the other side of town no less. Let's say you can justify a dynamic for something like this. How much time did you actually spend putting together this information saying where these drugs were and what kind of dealers would be at this place and exactly how dangerous they were that you would actually need a dynamic entry? LMPD spent so much time putting this information together that they got it in the wrong place no less. Nevermind they probably don't know just how much level of force they actually needed for this.

Agreed. This police operation was a complete and total mess. Whoever organized and authorized it should be held accountable.

[RedGuard]

Military Police are not trained to fired back blindly. How often do you hear about a MP shooting someone. They are very target specific.

The problem is police training in some departments. I like the police, but one bad or stupid cop or a poorly run department with poor training gives a lot of good cops a bad name.

not talking about military police specifically, im talking about the average joe in the military that thinks getting out of the military means a free pass into the police force, not unlearning all of the tactics from the military enough to where the new police tactics overrule his or her muscle reflex. Military is made to cause as much damage as possible, police are supposed to deescalate the situation because the "enemy" is the public.

like you say the problem is training, but Im sure its also because the police have been militarized to such a degree to where they often have the same gear as the marines just with "police" written on their flak jacket.

[Cope]

not talking about military police specifically, im talking about the average joe in the military that thinks getting out of the military means a free pass into the police force, not unlearning all of the tactics from the military enough to where the new police tactics overrule his or her muscle reflex. Military is made to cause as much damage as possible, police are supposed to deescalate the situation because the "enemy" is the public.

like you say the problem is training, but Im sure its also because the police have been militarized to such a degree to where they often have the same gear as the marines just with "police" written on their flak jacket.

Military personnel are more disciplined and far better trained in deescalation and situation management than the police are. The idea that these sort of incidents are the consequence of trigger happy ex-military cowboys is simply wrong.

[RedGuard]

The idea that these sort of incidents are the consequence of trigger happy ex-military cowboys is simply wrong

its a combination of factors, but as a former trigger happy ex-military cowboy I knew many that I was honestly afraid that they were planning to become police officers

[Gaidin]

Agreed. This police operation was a complete and total mess. Whoever organized and authorized it should be held accountable.

You commented earlier that they should be abolished. I think a better solution would be to tweak policy by law instead of having departments tweak policy themselves, by the way. Drag all departments in kicking and screaming instead of waiting department by department to come along to something reasonable for what they should be used for. And departments tweaking policy themselves could later tweak it back if they desired.

[Cope]

its a combination of factors, but as a former trigger happy ex-military cowboy I knew many that I was honestly afraid that they were planning to become police officers

If you are a former solider of recent conflicts then you will know that the military places significant emphasis on deescalation to the point where the rules of engagement in places like Afghanistan are often more restrictive than those followed by the police.

[RedGuard]

If you are a former solider of recent conflicts then you will know that the military places significant emphasis on deescalation to the point where the rules of engagement in places like Afghanistan are often more restrictive than those followed by the police.

oh trust me I know all about how restrictive an ROE can be. That doesn't mean theres not hundreds of incidents that go unreported or under-reported every month even in currently tame Afghanistan. A Marine friend of mine was shot at by National Guardsmen that were supposedly under strict ROE orders to ask for permission to open fire at anything, and also separately ask to confirm next if friendly's were in the area, both of which were ignored.

you'd think the military is full of well-disciplined and steadfast people, but usually its not. And if they are well trained they are never well trained enough

Im not trying to villify soldiers that do become police officers, its just that even though it may seem a likely career path if the military doesn't work out, its a lot different than what they expect I've been told. Ironically in my experience two of the three people that I knew that became police officers were some of the Marines I knew, the other was one of the best.

I'm just making the point that perhaps the thinking that the military makes the best police is the wrong way to go about policing in the U.S., However most get fed up within a few years any way when they don't get the respect they feel they deserve.

[Common Soldier]

You commented earlier that they should be abolished. I think a better solution would be to tweak policy by law instead of having departments tweak policy themselves, by the way. Drag all departments in kicking and screaming instead of waiting department by department to come along to something reasonable for what they should be used for. And departments tweaking policy themselves could later tweak it back if they desired.

As long you allow them, you are going to get abuse. Anytime you kickdown the door first, people inside whether guilty or innocent are likely not going to hear an announcement "It's the Police" and react in self defense, which can turnnout badly for both the occupants and the police. Even guilty drug dealers are more likely to peacefully surrender than fight and get killed in a hail of police bullets. They might get convicted for drugsnbut that beats getting killed. It is simply better to risk that evidence be destroyed than people getting killed, especially innocent ones.

And less face ir, it they managed to flush down all the drugs in the short time after the police knock and they bust in, they were not very big dealers.


There are some very scary way that police are being trained as reported here: https://www.theatlantic.com/national...rguson/383681/. I find ir scary that cops operate by the moto "Better to be judged b 12 than carried by 6." I find it frightening in that cops are being trained to shoot me if they think I reaching a gun while I wasnafuwlly reaching into thr glove to get my registration.

A cop job is dangerous, it goes with territory, the cop moto should be "Bette dead than an innocent life lost" If that puts cops at a slightly greater risk, well it goes with the job, and if they have a problem with that, then they should not be cops. Cops are paid to take risk, the public is not. Right now cop training is saying the lives of cops are more important than that of innocent people, and I don't accept that.
Op

[Gaidin]

As long you allow them, you are going to get abuse. Anytime you kickdown the door first, people inside wherher guilty or innocent are likely not going to hear an announcement "It's the Police" and react in self defense, which can turnnout badly for both the occupants and the police. Even guilty drug dealers are more likely to pewcefully surrender than fight and get killed in a hail of police bullets. They might get convicted for drugsnbut that beats getting killed. It is simply better to risk that evidence be destroyed than people getting killed, especially innocent ones.

Intelligence gathering. If you kick down the door for someone wherein its not worth taking the risk kicking the door down for its on the department. No knock warrants should only be executed on people that you need that kind of surprise on. And you should actually have intelligence on them. You shouldn't be executing them on small time parts of drug rings. Which, when you look at the subject of this warrant, in the wrong place, would theoretically not need a no-knock warrant anyway. And like I said, they should be executed by teams that actually train to deal with them.

If the department tries to use them so much it's going to fall on teams that are merely SWAT-certified instead of teams that are actually full-time SWAT. That's when you start having these problems. And its like I said. If LMPD can't even hold their patience enough to verify their intelligence, you're not really going to make a good case against what I'm saying. You need departments that actually pull this off well, and STILL can be argued to use it too much to be able to make a case.

[antaeus]

Is this individual incident representative of a trend or ongoing issue?

[Gaidin]

The question is both what is the press being loud about and what is the police doing wrong and what is the police doing right.

This particular event was something to attract the press.

But for something that I don't think the police should use a no-knock warrant on, the probably do correctly more often than not. Or we'd see dramatic reports more often than not.