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Thread: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

  1. #1

    Default Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    I'm into Turn 100 and here are some observations on the Carthage campaign.

    1) Carthaginian Council seem to always declare peace after a few turns of not fighting (4 turns)...

    Example,I declared war on rebel settlements by blockading their ports, went through the formalities of choosing War Leader. I then had to have all my generals descend upon Carthage to obtain the position of Rab Sheni, which could take a few turns. By the time i had a few Rab Sheni and started assembling my army which would take 4 to 5 turns and NOT COUNTING the time it takes to travel all the way to Iberia, the Council declared peace. Obviously something is not right here. The war mechanics doesn't seem aligned at all. What is going on?

    2) And what is the rate of gaining Rab Sheni per turn? It seems to be taking a whole lot of time. I have 10 eligible candidates in my capital and it could take more than 10 turns for the last guy to get the appointment. I try my best to play the game properly by only having a confirmed general or Rab Sheni lead my armies to battle but the game does not seem to facilitate such an approach at all.

    3) War declared against Rebels, while am getting 3 to 5 turns ready an army, I declared war on the Egyptians by invading Kyrene, two turns later, than Carthaginian Council declares peace due to inactivity.. What's going on?

    4) Am fighting more and more factions at the same time but only one War Leader?? Can't we have more??

  2. #2

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    1) I don't have access to the scripts file (namely, don't know what file is, and don't know how to read it), but I presume it is by chance.

    2) This I KNOW is by chance. Every electable Rab Sheni have a chance every turn to become a Rab Sheni.

    3) Further evidence it is by chance? Regardless, you have to know how to keep the violence escalating in order to show the council the war is more than a formality at that point. Siege settlements, blockade ports, send agents (no success needed) whenever you get a message the momentum is going cold. That will reset it. Never had it going cold during the Sicily wars, for example.

    4) Well, yes. The point of the war leader is to give you the chance of have initiative in a war by being able to name a frontline general. If multiple front wars seem unfair to Carthage... well, they are. Get that diplomacy working.

    Finally, have in mind you don't *need* a War Leader or Rab Shenri or even... Recruitment Officer to lead an army. While your command state will tank HARD if you are not an elected officer, your Confidence can still be fairly high. If you fight personally on the battle map, that's the most important stat.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    2) This I KNOW is by chance. Every electable Rab Sheni have a chance every turn to become a Rab Sheni.

    3) Further evidence it is by chance? Regardless, you have to know how to keep the violence escalating in order to show the council the war is more than a formality at that point. Siege settlements, blockade ports, send agents (no success needed) whenever you get a message the momentum is going cold. That will reset it. Never had it going cold during the Sicily wars, for example.
    I don't mind it is done by chance but does it have to take that long? Can't they increase the rate of appointment? The tight time frame should just be done away with coz it just doesn't make sense at all. How am i going to get my generals from Carthage to Britain in 4 turns? Seems counter-intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    4) Well, yes. The point of the war leader is to give you the chance of have initiative in a war by being able to name a frontline general. If multiple front wars seem unfair to Carthage... well, they are. Get that diplomacy working.
    You missed the point.. My concern has nothing to do with diplomacy or not wanting to have multiple wars.. My point is why limit the number of war leaders?

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Finally, have in mind you don't *need* a War Leader or Rab Sheni or even... Recruitment Officer to lead an army. While your command state will tank HARD if you are not an elected officer, your Confidence can still be fairly high. If you fight personally on the battle map, that's the most important stat.
    I'm aware of that.. but i'm really impressed by the work done in fleshing out the characters and the RPG dimension of the game. The efforts of the modders have not gone to waste on my game because I really enjoy taking time to develop my characters and progress them through the game but it seems like certain aspects aren't aligned at all which is why i'm pointing them out... Is it due to game restrictions or something else? Would be nice to know the logic behind these observations..
    Last edited by qwertykov; May 15, 2020 at 11:50 AM.

  4. #4
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    I have a great understanding of this mechanic so I can explain everything that you need.

    When you start a war as Carthage you get war points which place you on war stage. Those points increase according to the offensive actions that you take (some of them don't count like naval battles or field battles against the rebels). It decreases every turn if you do not take any offensive action.

    The system is far from perfect but it's not that bad, you can just raid a rebel port to increase the points when you want to keep the war state. Besieging settlements also work.

    As Rodrigues said, you can see what Generals are eligible for the generalship but it all ends up being on chances.

    About the war Leader, I never really understood that one but normally you would get one. It's still accurate, there is a War Leader then you can have multiple Main and Secondary Generals.

    Regarding these limitations, I worked a bit on it for my submod and added new military offices which will allow you to not be that dependant on this mechanic.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    I think it is deliberate, to represent Carthage's bureocracy of having a state army, in order to reflect the struggles Hannibal went through on the final days of the city state.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    I think it is deliberate, to represent Carthage's bureocracy of having a state army, in order to reflect the struggles Hannibal went through on the final days of the city state.
    Sure but wouldn't it be better to apply it sparingly or only on Hannibal Barca himself instead of institutionalizing it into a faction-wide liability...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Well, it kind of was a faction-wide liability. It started to show as soon as the end of the First Punic War when the Sicilian troops were willing to keep fighting but the state couldn't/wouldn't pay for a new fleet. Carthaginians always were very wary about an individual acquiring too much power or even the slightest prospects of a dynasty appearing on the horizon, hence the habit of limiting their generals.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  8. #8
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Satapatiš View Post
    Well, it kind of was a faction-wide liability. It started to show as soon as the end of the First Punic War when the Sicilian troops were willing to keep fighting but the state couldn't/wouldn't pay for a new fleet. Carthaginians always were very wary about an individual acquiring too much power or even the slightest prospects of a dynasty appearing on the horizon, hence the habit of limiting their generals.
    That's not true mate. There were several family dynasties in Carthage that controled the military and political power of their period. We had the Magonnids, Hannonids, the later Barcids, etc. There weren't any limitations like those, they elected their Generals and during the Second Punic War we can clearly see that Hannibal was the main general in Italy, Hasdrubal was for some time the main general in Iberia and other generals were in Africa, Sicily and Sardinia.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    That's not true mate. There were several family dynasties in Carthage that controled the military and political power of their period. We had the Magonnids, Hannonids, the later Barcids, etc. There weren't any limitations like those, they elected their Generals and during the Second Punic War we can clearly see that Hannibal was the main general in Italy, Hasdrubal was for some time the main general in Iberia and other generals were in Africa, Sicily and Sardinia.

    They still could be ordered back or left to themselves, though.

    Although the turn limit for keeping the hostilities going could be longer. It can take more to assemble and ship the army.

    Or one can keep a few light cavalry units and a fleet handy just for the purpose of warmongering...
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  10. #10

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post

    Regarding these limitations, I worked a bit on it for my submod and added new military offices which will allow you to not be that dependant on this mechanic.
    Yeah sure i'll check it out.. whats the name of your mod? do you have a link?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Then consider it was done out of a gameplay consideration, and maybe having more than one player-chosen general called at the moment of a war would be impossible/impractical for the script system.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Satapatiš View Post
    They still could be ordered back or left to themselves, though.

    Although the turn limit for keeping the hostilities going could be longer. It can take more to assemble and ship the army.

    Or one can keep a few light cavalry units and a fleet handy just for the purpose of warmongering...
    The problem is that it's really hard to balance that because sometimes the peace period also takes too much time to arrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertykov View Post
    Yeah sure i'll check it out.. whats the name of your mod? do you have a link?
    Will only be available after the next patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Then consider it was done out of a gameplay consideration, and maybe having more than one player-chosen general called at the moment of a war would be impossible/impractical for the script system.
    Still, there can be several Main generals which already give them great bonus!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Satapatiš View Post
    Or one can keep a few light cavalry units and a fleet handy just for the purpose of warmongering...
    Then that's just gamey...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertykov View Post
    Then that's just gamey...

    Why? Even with a realistic roleplaying there will be a certain degree of raiding and harassing between the two warring states. Keep 'em occupied chasing your raiders instead of walking those armies into your lands.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; May 21, 2020 at 11:18 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  15. #15
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    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Satapatiš View Post
    Why? Even with a realistic roleplaying there will be a certain degree of raiding and harassing between the two warring states. Keep 'em occupied chasing your raiders instead of walking those armies into your lands.
    Indeed. Under some conditions it would be considered pretty much historical. And the next patch will make raiding with navies more profitable thanks to my new maritime raids mechanic x)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Indeed. Under some conditions it would be considered pretty much historical. And the next patch will make raiding with navies more profitable thanks to my new maritime raids mechanic x)
    Is this going to be more effective for traditionally naval factions like KH or Carthage, or with fleets recruited in certain regions (currently there isn't much difference to the Liburnian ships except for the flavor of their unit card)?
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  17. #17
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    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Satapatiš View Post
    Is this going to be more effective for traditionally naval factions like KH or Carthage, or with fleets recruited in certain regions (currently there isn't much difference to the Liburnian ships except for the flavor of their unit card)?
    There is no way we can differentiate fleets recruited in certain regions. But it will be a mechanic available for all factions.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Probably piracy and stuff. Which would be quite neat. Things are pretty expensive in this mod, alternate sources of income would be more than welcome.

    Regarding using ships to store armies... well... guess this was a good use for fortresses after all.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Some questions on Carthaginian war mechanic..

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    There is no way we can differentiate fleets recruited in certain regions. But it will be a mechanic available for all factions.
    Can its effectiveness be linked to the class of ships, though? Giving the players reasons to keep raiding and Liburnian light ships for this purpose instead of switching to the warship fleets? I think that Liburnian ships are already restricted by their availability zones. Also, Celtic and Germanic ships could be more useful for coastal raiding.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; May 26, 2020 at 10:59 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




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