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Thread: Recruitment suggestions

  1. #1

    Default Recruitment suggestions

    As of now (2.35), there are some units that probably have too much recruitment, which might pose problems for accuracy or gameplay in general. This list probably doesn't cover all of them (mainly focusing on western factions), just some I've noticed.

    -Balearic slingers: These are the most notorious (and have been already noted in other threads). As a player who plays Carthage a lot, I've noticed that once you get the reforms you are always drowning in Balearic slingers. These guys, even outside of Iberia, are available with 3, 4, even 5 units in a settlement. Considering that historically the Balearic Isles weren't that populated and that there could only be a couple thousand of these men at most, having the capability to make armies of these slingers seems silly. Generally only one unit of slingers is available in a settlement, and due to the limited nature of these slingers it should definitely not exceed this in settlements outside of the Balearics.

    -Gallic Noble Cavalry: With a confederation, you can get two units of these cavalry at a time in one settlement. The problem I've noticed is that once I've captured Gergouia/Bibrakte, I never need to use light cavalry again. Although they cost quite a bit more, the economy is good enough that it's not too crippling. I think that these should be restricted to one per settlement. They also appear in the Belgae allied state settlements despite not being in any other allied settlements (were they a placeholder for the Belgic medium cavalry?).

    -Belgic medium cavalry: It may be just me, but I've always thought that the armor they've been equipped with warrants another armor point. As far as recruitment goes, three of them can be recruited with an allied state (along with a Gallic Noble Cavalry). That's a lot in one settlement, I would think it has at least one too many (and perhaps the gallic nobles should be removed). It's also not available in the other Belgae populated settlement (Nemetokena), which is a bit weird.

    -West Celtic Light Cavalry: Not really recruitment related, but they have free garrison upkeep which is unusual for cavalry.

    -Liby-Phoenician units: By the mid to end game, a carthage player is able to recruit two of each in the main phoenician settlements with the council administration governments. They are both good units (and will get better if the liby-phoenician cavalry get the extra point of armor) which is good for the player, but I was under the impression that liby-phoenicans were rarely used outside of Africa. Having in one settlement leads to situations like my current campaign, in which I can get an endless supply with a little management. They should be a limited population, and should probably stay at one. It might also be a good idea to limit their recovery to prevent overuse.

    -Libyan cavalry: As of now, the number of them is kind of ridiculous. There are 6 in Qart-Hadast and Atiq by the mid to late game, which is kind of excessive considering you can also recruit two Numidians and two Numidian nobles as well. Currently this unit isn't very good so the amount doesn't matter as much, but come improved armor (and perhaps other armor) and the removal of Carthaginian noble cavalry this unit will be a lot more important.

    -Other Libyan units: There are a lot of Libyan units available to Carthage. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it means that Carthaginian players rarely need to consider manpower. I never need to use numidian infantry or import iberians since I have so many libyan professionals.

    -Numidian nobles: Getting 2 (in the late game) each of the core African provinces of Carthage means even after I exhaust my Liby-phoenicians, I still never need to incorporate lower quality units. Especially considering how good Numidian nobles get, I think they should be limited like the Liby-phoenicians.

    -Equites: I guess spamming high quality units is sort of the trademark of Rome, but there are too many equites. With a Latin constitution, you can recruit more units of equites (5) than any of the infantry classes (4). The number should probably be dropped by one or two.

    -Triarii: I've stated this before in other threads, but I think the unit size should be increased by 1.5 (to 120) and upkeep adjusted, since 80 (one the largest setting) is a bit too small to use effectively. This would also mean a decrease in recruitment. This is less historical so I doubt it will be implemented.

    -Greek Elite Hoplites: In the later game I've found that higher level governments allow the recruitment of two elite hoplites. The problem with this is that the available distribution of those governments is very widespread. This can lead to entire armies of these troops being available, and I'm not sure if this was intentioned to happen.

  2. #2
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    I agree with everything except for the Triari xD

  3. #3

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    I dont know about the Liby-Phoenicians. Those 4 provinces are the core of Carthage and you are talking with fully developped settlements well past what carthage reached historically. Liby-Phoenicians arent elites or anything. Capable units yes, but they are the equivalent of hoplites and the cavalry is on a simialr level of been a good medium level unit. In fact, specially in the case of infantry, its recruitment availability its notably smaller than the equivalents for other factions. Getting 2 units on your "best" regions once those are highly developped doesnt feel like a ton. Also i beleive they were used outside of africa. Just in a smaller proportion than other factions used their core units. Phoenicians the ones that were used very rarelly outside africa and sicily (except in the navy).

    They do get a lot of lybians though, thats for sure. They are also getting some garrison scripts next patch though. So we will have to wait for those to see the actual manpower available. I dont know how historical the exact manpower is though, but I know they were able to pull quite the big armies consistently.

    I do agree about the balearic slingers though. I may be wrong but I beleived them to be sort of a reginonal "elite" unit. Of course relativelly widespread due to their common work as mercenaries, basically something akin to the cretans. But I feel they are indeed quite accesible. I think they should be 1 unit in most places with maybe a few been able to reach 2.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  4. #4
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Be in mind that the reason why there are so many Balearic slingers is, as Quintus explained, due to them being a placeholder of the future ligurian slingers which will replace them in many regions.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Jervaj, I understand this is going beyond what they achieved historically, but it is meant to have a historical base. Liby-Phoenicians aren’t well recorded, and a lot is speculative. From what is known, it’s unlikely that they were as major of a force in even the early game of EB2. I’m not saying they were never used outside of Africa, only rarely. I think only 450 Livy-Phoenician cavalry are mentioned as far as I know (I think mentioned by Polybius). In EB2 terms, that’s maybe 1 unit. I think Trarco even stated that they weren’t intended to be used that often outside of Africa.

    Lusitanio, I know that the range of them is partially due to Ligurian slingers. I was pointing out the quantity. In the Iberian settlements, a Carthaginian player can recruit 3,4, or even 5 units from a single settlement. Even in areas where they represent Ligurian slingers, they are still available in large numbers. Most other slingers in the game are limited to one, maybe two in some cases, per settlement.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    I'd also like to add that the concept of "Satrap's retinue" (or Tyrannos, or Basileus, or any other monikers in EDB) allows for far too many elite units. For example, the Satrapy building for Pontos is buildable almost everywhere in former Seleucid regions. That building also provides a unit of Iranian Household Cavalry, a unit even more powerful than the Hetairoi. As a result you can field 5+ units of them per army if you so choose. I suggest that the refresh rate be increased to one unit per 100 turns, except for provinces where retinue units are native. For example, you can semi-consistently recruit Iranian Household Cavalry deep in the former Persian Empire, but can only occasionally retrain them in frontline provinces.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoebopp View Post
    I'd also like to add that the concept of "Satrap's retinue" (or Tyrannos, or Basileus, or any other monikers in EDB) allows for far too many elite units. For example, the Satrapy building for Pontos is buildable almost everywhere in former Seleucid regions. That building also provides a unit of Iranian Household Cavalry, a unit even more powerful than the Hetairoi. As a result you can field 5+ units of them per army if you so choose. I suggest that the refresh rate be increased to one unit per 100 turns, except for provinces where retinue units are native. For example, you can semi-consistently recruit Iranian Household Cavalry deep in the former Persian Empire, but can only occasionally retrain them in frontline provinces.
    IIRC the Iranian Heavy Cavalry gets a change in 2.35A, they'll now be AoR available in some regions to many factions.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    Jervaj, I understand this is going beyond what they achieved historically, but it is meant to have a historical base. Liby-Phoenicians aren’t well recorded, and a lot is speculative. From what is known, it’s unlikely that they were as major of a force in even the early game of EB2. I’m not saying they were never used outside of Africa, only rarely. I think only 450 Livy-Phoenician cavalry are mentioned as far as I know (I think mentioned by Polybius). In EB2 terms, that’s maybe 1 unit. I think Trarco even stated that they weren’t intended to be used that often outside of Africa.
    Umm, I dont know. I actually asked the team about some army compositions not that long ago, and they mentioned that this unit was the one that represented best the heavy african infantry the Barcas had and employed in Iberia and the second punic war. Maybe this unit in game represents more than exactly liby-phoenicians. I cant argue for and against actual numbers because I hoenstly dont know them and its hard to know givent he lack of sources when it comes to the punics.

    The main difference the team mentioned was always the numbers. To compare with the most similar troops, where your usual KH stack would have 4 standard hoplites, here you would often use just 2 Liby Phoenicians in a carthaginian historical army composition, at least from the team's input. And a faction like KH has much more than double the recruitment availability of this kind of troop (specially pre reforms) needing much less investment.

    About the cavalry, well honestly I very rarely fielded more than 1 of those in a stack in the campaign I played, so I guess it matches. Maybe in africa 2 in a cavalry heavy army. Though I didnt got that far as you to see maybe the overflow.

    Still, something to have in mind is that is quite easy to have ahistorical composition in general with any faction, given the ability of the player to "pool" manpower together and put it "anywhere", i nan era where armies often were much more regional, barring some exceptions in important campaigns. You can combine forces from different provinces that historically would have very rarelly combined troops in the same army. Or just do things like empty Carthage's recruitment pool, put it together in one stack and ship a full african army to italy. Historically that pool would have never been emptied to start with (except maybe in the case of an attack on Carthage itself), then from the actual recruited troops a share would have stayed in or around Carthage as garrisons, and then the rest would have been diluted in several different armies.


    Edit: Revised actual numbers in the data files and putting them here for comparison:

    Liby-Phoenicians: Non reform governments (which require a good degree of colonziation first) give you 1 of each liby-phoenician unit tops always. Then colonies can give you a second but only in what the mod considers the most punicised areas (what it calls Punic Core and Punicised numidia). In carthage itself , in the government pool, the units are replaced by their elite phoenician versions. so they dont go past one, though you have 2 in total with the mroe phoenician ones. Without colonization you only get in the post reform governments one of each in the Barcid capital and in some specific places swith the kleruchy. Factions other than carthage can usually get 1 unit of each in the areas with the most punic presence with allied or native factional governments. Basically where either the punic colonies or the kleruchy would give you one

    Hellenic/ized units: With just a level 2 poleis and the lowest level colony (or any hellenic factional government instead if your KH) any hellenic or pseudo hellenic faction can get 4 equivalent/similar infantry and cavalry units. This can increase up to 5-6 of each in the most developped places, and is much less georaphically restricted, as long as you can get the infrastructure in place. And less not forget, that this is only for the most similar units. These same sources give you a smattering of other also hellenic/hellenistic units of different stratas. So with that same basic infra you are getting 13-19 units (depending on geography) which can reach close to 30 in developped and appropiate areas.
    The only thing that may skew the impression is that after reforms (which come relativelly early for hellenistic factions) hellenic/ized populations get further divided between several more units, which may give the impression they are more scarce because the units individually dont have bigs pools. Although 2 is reached by a lot.


    I guess saving up and pooling several cities you can amass a bunch of them, but this is true for almost everything but the most elite units. A relative comparison with other similar units (like the one done above) shows they are indeed scarce recruitment wise, which represent their lower numbers and the lower intent of use of Carthage itself of them in its land armies (as you see it doesnt even get much more than other factions of them). Is important to remember that the 2 units commented are most if not all the representation of liby-phoenicians when counting up how present they are versus others.

    Fine tuning might be needed, but I feel that right now EBII is representing quite well different availabilities and approaches to war. Hellenistic powers get many more of their "core" units if the proper infra is present at the cost of less locals. Only if they are not using hellenistic settlers can they use "foreign" colonies to get natives in good quantites. Which shows the bigger population pool and notable settler efforts, and also how the weight of war fell preferably in these pops whenever they were available. Rome gets amazing italian recruitment representing the huge manpower the peninsula had, but little outside of it until it reforms. Celts rely on confederations or faction specific structures they can later develop, with other forms of control only given token recruitment. Nomads get their core mainly from camps with later reforms allowing some later in settled places. Carthage gets its scarce factional troops where it colonizes due to its low numbers and reluctance to use them, but a lot of natives and mercenaries to form the bulk of their armies. Every faction really comes alive in its own way.

    Just as a last note, given carthage administration is getting reworked, I think it may be better to wait ebfore reevaluating where liby-phoenicians end. But I dont feel like they are in a bad place now.
    Last edited by Jervaj; May 14, 2020 at 05:30 AM. Reason: See edit

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  9. #9

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Agreed with Liby-Phoenician units being too plentiful. At maximum development you can get double digit numbers of recruitable units in a single pool, which makes the military side of getting the Barcid reform trivial. You can just dump 2000+ armies of heavy infantry onto Italia and gun for the biggest stack or most garrisoned city. Fighting the Libyans is also trivialized in this way. I don't mind them being plentiful, but the numbers ought to be tweaked.

    Though on the other end, I find some units are too rare. As far as I know you can't recruit Belgae swordsmen outside of Boioi Colonies.

    I believe the Uazali description claims that they are common mercenaries but they are quite a pain to maintain. With 1 or 2 unit pools available at best,

    Thureophoroi are also less well armed than Hoplitai, but have smaller pools. That might be thanks to splitting the population between the standard Thureophoroi and the Machairaphoroi variant, but split pools are generally weaker than singular ones. The end result is that Thureophoroi are harder to replenish and recruit than Hoplitai.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Hellenic thureos troops are hard enough to train and replace that most of the time I'm prioritizing regular and levy hoplites instead.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  11. #11

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Ironically this does force the player to use them on their historic role, as support flank troops. If you are greek, your army will be mainly hoplites and phalanx, nothing to do about it.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Ironically this does force the player to use them on their historic role, as support flank troops. If you are greek, your army will be mainly hoplites and phalanx, nothing to do about it.

    Well, I'm barely using them at all except for the cities where they get a free garrison upkeep. Flank troops often suffer heavier casualties than the center line holders, so in case the opposing faction can't be finished fast (which is the usual in EB 1 & 2) it's better to use light and medium flankers that are easier to replenish.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  13. #13

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Then Greeks are out of luck, the only factions that get good numbers of skimishers are Barbarians and Romans. Even the lowliest Akontistai is relatively rare. I guess faithful slaves are that hard to gang-press into service, while there's lot o citizens with inherited panoply at home just waiting to be called in. Which seems reasonable, just makes a bit difficult to make armies.

    I use them to bolster my defensive armies solely because I can't get quite enough Hoplites out of South Greece. Otherwise I wouldn't use them at all. Is not that I think they are bad, but with their bellow-hoplite quality, and such pitiful numbers (at least for most of the game), there's not much point.

    You can complement your numbers with mercs, though.
    Last edited by RodriguesSting; May 14, 2020 at 02:05 PM.

  14. #14
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    As of now (2.35), there are some units that probably have too much recruitment, which might pose problems for accuracy or gameplay in general. This list probably doesn't cover all of them (mainly focusing on western factions), just some I've noticed.

    -Balearic slingers: These are the most notorious (and have been already noted in other threads). As a player who plays Carthage a lot, I've noticed that once you get the reforms you are always drowning in Balearic slingers. These guys, even outside of Iberia, are available with 3, 4, even 5 units in a settlement. Considering that historically the Balearic Isles weren't that populated and that there could only be a couple thousand of these men at most, having the capability to make armies of these slingers seems silly. Generally only one unit of slingers is available in a settlement, and due to the limited nature of these slingers it should definitely not exceed this in settlements outside of the Balearics.
    As already mentioned, they're standing in for Ligurian slingers all over the place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Gallic Noble Cavalry: With a confederation, you can get two units of these cavalry at a time in one settlement. The problem I've noticed is that once I've captured Gergouia/Bibrakte, I never need to use light cavalry again. Although they cost quite a bit more, the economy is good enough that it's not too crippling. I think that these should be restricted to one per settlement. They also appear in the Belgae allied state settlements despite not being in any other allied settlements (were they a placeholder for the Belgic medium cavalry?).
    They become more common after the Celtic Twilight reform, because Celtic cavalry got heavier.

    They're available in all western Celtic settlements with an Allied Government after the late reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Belgic medium cavalry: It may be just me, but I've always thought that the armor they've been equipped with warrants another armor point. As far as recruitment goes, three of them can be recruited with an allied state (along with a Gallic Noble Cavalry). That's a lot in one settlement, I would think it has at least one too many (and perhaps the gallic nobles should be removed). It's also not available in the other Belgae populated settlement (Nemetokena), which is a bit weird.
    They're an alternative to Eporeda Akus in Belgic settlements, thus have their numbers. The high availability of cavalry for Celtic factions is intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -West Celtic Light Cavalry: Not really recruitment related, but they have free garrison upkeep which is unusual for cavalry.
    All the light Celtic cavalry have this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Liby-Phoenician units: By the mid to end game, a carthage player is able to recruit two of each in the main phoenician settlements with the council administration governments. They are both good units (and will get better if the liby-phoenician cavalry get the extra point of armor) which is good for the player, but I was under the impression that liby-phoenicans were rarely used outside of Africa. Having in one settlement leads to situations like my current campaign, in which I can get an endless supply with a little management. They should be a limited population, and should probably stay at one. It might also be a good idea to limit their recovery to prevent overuse.
    They only appear in one-point pools, where they aren't retrain only. They're also doubling up as Punic settlers in specific places, like Shardin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Libyan cavalry: As of now, the number of them is kind of ridiculous. There are 6 in Qart-Hadast and Atiq by the mid to late game, which is kind of excessive considering you can also recruit two Numidians and two Numidian nobles as well. Currently this unit isn't very good so the amount doesn't matter as much, but come improved armor (and perhaps other armor) and the removal of Carthaginian noble cavalry this unit will be a lot more important.

    -Other Libyan units: There are a lot of Libyan units available to Carthage. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it means that Carthaginian players rarely need to consider manpower. I never need to use numidian infantry or import iberians since I have so many libyan professionals.
    The availability of Libyan Hoplites has been reduced somewhat in the patch; more broadly all recruitment from Carthaginian governments has been pared down by two points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Numidian nobles: Getting 2 (in the late game) each of the core African provinces of Carthage means even after I exhaust my Liby-phoenicians, I still never need to incorporate lower quality units. Especially considering how good Numidian nobles get, I think they should be limited like the Liby-phoenicians.
    It's late game recruitment in places you've fully developed. I'll note they're down to one point in the reduced schema.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Equites: I guess spamming high quality units is sort of the trademark of Rome, but there are too many equites. With a Latin constitution, you can recruit more units of equites (5) than any of the infantry classes (4). The number should probably be dropped by one or two.
    I think the last tier of colony is too generous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Triarii: I've stated this before in other threads, but I think the unit size should be increased by 1.5 (to 120) and upkeep adjusted, since 80 (one the largest setting) is a bit too small to use effectively. This would also mean a decrease in recruitment. This is less historical so I doubt it will be implemented.
    As you note, given the historical reason for their size, not going to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    -Greek Elite Hoplites: In the later game I've found that higher level governments allow the recruitment of two elite hoplites. The problem with this is that the available distribution of those governments is very widespread. This can lead to entire armies of these troops being available, and I'm not sure if this was intentioned to happen.
    Is this for KH, you're talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Then Greeks are out of luck, the only factions that get good numbers of skimishers are Barbarians and Romans. Even the lowliest Akontistai is relatively rare. I guess faithful slaves are that hard to gang-press into service, while there's lot o citizens with inherited panoply at home just waiting to be called in. Which seems reasonable, just makes a bit difficult to make armies.
    Greek psiloi only come from the polis (or Allied Governments) for the most part, and they're balanced as a grouping. So you won't just get Akontistai, but Toxotai and Sphendonetai too. Akontistai are usually 2 points.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Then Greeks are out of luck, the only factions that get good numbers of skimishers are Barbarians and Romans. Even the lowliest Akontistai is relatively rare. I guess faithful slaves are that hard to gang-press into service, while there's lot o citizens with inherited panoply at home just waiting to be called in. Which seems reasonable, just makes a bit difficult to make armies.

    I use them to bolster my defensive armies solely because I can't get quite enough Hoplites out of South Greece. Otherwise I wouldn't use them at all. Is not that I think they are bad, but with their bellow-hoplite quality, and such pitiful numbers (at least for most of the game), there's not much point.

    You can complement your numbers with mercs, though.
    Greeks get hemithorakitai, though. They eventually get enough of them for only rarely having to use akontistai.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; May 15, 2020 at 10:01 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  16. #16

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    They don't skirmish and are too slow. I need skirmishers because I like to use them in the traditional TW fashion - wasting the time of any flanking infantry, taking them away from battle. While the Hemithorakitai are faster than hoplites, they are MUCH slower than skirmishers, so the odds of them actually outrunning any opponents are slim.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    They don't skirmish and are too slow. I need skirmishers because I like to use them in the traditional TW fashion - wasting the time of any flanking infantry, taking them away from battle. While the Hemithorakitai are faster than hoplites, they are MUCH slower than skirmishers, so the odds of them actually outrunning any opponents are slim.
    They don't need to run, though. They have the basic minimum for stand and fight and they don't instantly rout and die from the cavalry. They're also not hard to replace, both from the cities and from the mercenary pools.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




  18. #18

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    Do you really need javelin skirmishers? Sphendonetai work better than any light javelin skirmishers.

    If you really want javelin skirmishers, you've got tons around your homeland, they just won't be Greek. Illyrians got decent and cheap medium skirmishers, capable of at least surviving more than a second in melee, and Thracian Peltenai are top of the line heavy skirmishers.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    And Kretan archers, and Skythian foot archers, and Hippoakontistai (less ammo, MUCH faster and better at kiting), and etc...

    There's plenty of options if you go for mercs or skew your definitions of what a skirmisher is. But if you go by the definition that is a unit with the skirmish capability and on foot, that leaves, regarding native recruitment, only the Akontistai (and Euzenoi), capped at 2 and thus not very available.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Recruitment suggestions

    What's wrong with using non-Greek skirmishers when that's what Greeks themselves were doing? I mean, thureos troops are scarce before advancing a city into an agricultural reform, but akontistai seems to be ok in terms of numbers. If you need more then you have to look for outsiders. Thracian or Illyrian mercenaries never were anything exotic for Greeks.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; May 16, 2020 at 08:13 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.




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