Missouri bill seeks to ban terminating life-threatening ectopic pregnancies

[Coughdrop addict]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...ic-pregnancies

Missouri state Rep. Brian Seitz (R) introduced a bill in the state House that would ban the termination of ectopic pregnancies.
These pregnancies, which occur when a fertilized egg implants and grows outside the uterus, most often in the fallopian tube, can be life-threatening for the pregnant person if left untreated, and the fetus can't survive being carried to term, according to Mayo Clinic.
The bill, if passed into law, would make performing, inducing or attempting to perform or induce an abortion for such a pregnancy a class A felony. Insider reported that such a charge could carry a sentence of up to 30 years in prison.

In other words he forgot to include even the fig leaf of feigned concern for the unborn and outright wants to kill women.

In my opinion he misjudged the room. While women are generally seen as subservient baby-factories on the far right, the idea of them being outright disposable and replaceable is still a step to far. I hope.

So what do you all think? Should a woman with an ectopic pregnancy be forced to carry to term and die?

[alhoon]

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-w...ic-pregnancies



In other words he forgot to include even the fig leaf of feigned concern for the unborn and outright wants to kill women.

In my opinion he misjudged the room. While women are generally seen as subservient baby-factories on the far right, the idea of them being outright disposable and replaceable is still a step to far. I hope.

So what do you all think? Should a woman with an ectopic pregnancy be forced to carry to term and die?

I am pro-life.

I find this bill horrendous. For starters, you're not saving the kid. Nope. You are just forcing a woman to go elsewhere for a potentially life-saving procedure or seek illegal aid in the state if she can't afford it.
I.e. for poor women the choice is "Die" or "risk going to prison".
Think: "die from cancer" or "seek chemotherapy that the state made illegal for the lulz."

And it also puts a lot of guilt on women that are told they have to do the abortion.
Telling a mother "unfortunately, the pregnancy has to be terminated or your life will be in danger; the fetus will not survive anyway and by the time your body mismarries, you may get irreparable damage. " is bad enough. Adding "Oh, and it is a felony to do something about it." is adding guilt to the poor woman, making her think "for that to be a felony, the lawmakers must know better; perhaps there's a way for me to carry the pregnancy to term!"

It is absolutely horrendous.

Again: I am pro-life. And that includes the life of the mother too. And the life of the other children that woman may have in the future if an abortion saves her uterus from irreparable damage.


Can't the $$$$ing conservatives get that pro-life doesn't mean "kill women"?
I am against a woman in her 28s having an abortion without the consent of the father of the child to be killed just because the child is inconvenient at this time for her career.
I am more ambivalent when it comes to a 17-years old teen although I am "slightly against".
Rape victims forced to drop their lives and bear the children of their rapist have me going "ehh... no. The woman didn't choose to take the risk of unprotected sex."

But this?! THIS?! You are not saving the child. That child cannot survive. It is like forcing a woman to carry to term a pregnancy when the fetus has a poorly developed heart and is expected to die within moments outside the womb. Also, it puts the woman in big risk.
What
the
feck ?


And speaking about stupid crap faux-pro-life idiots push:
Stop preaching "abstinence only". It's not going to happen. That ship has sailed. Stop teen pregnancies by having contraceptives over the counter at every state, that a woman can get with a few dollars without ID or anything. Give them out in the pharmacies, supermarkets, gas stations.
And have the "the morning after" pill as a very legal and very affordable option. And explain to girls and boys how those things work.

And go after the buttholes that don't use condoms or stealthily remove them before you go after the teens seeking abortions.

[Coughdrop addict]

The only reason I can see him proposing such a law is he wants to get in good with a certain kind of voter. The type who see women as a necessary evil at best, who would be all for mandatory female genital mutilation if not for it's association with Islam, who plot to kidnap and murder female governors for daring to endorse mask-wearing or invade the capital and drag out the any Democratic representatives for lynching.

You probably know the type I mean.

[Cope]

I am pro-life.

I find this bill horrendous. For starters, you're not saving the kid. Nope. You are just forcing a woman to go elsewhere for a potentially life-saving procedure or seek illegal aid in the state if she can't afford it.
I.e. for poor women the choice is "Die" or "risk going to prison".
Think: "die from cancer" or "seek chemotherapy that the state made illegal for the lulz."

And it also puts a lot of guilt on women that are told they have to do the abortion.
Telling a mother "unfortunately, the pregnancy has to be terminated or your life will be in danger; the fetus will not survive anyway and by the time your body mismarries, you may get irreparable damage. " is bad enough. Adding "Oh, and it is a felony to do something about it." is adding guilt to the poor woman, making her think "for that to be a felony, the lawmakers must know better; perhaps there's a way for me to carry the pregnancy to term!"

It is absolutely horrendous.

Again: I am pro-life. And that includes the life of the mother too. And the life of the other children that woman may have in the future if an abortion saves her uterus from irreparable damage.


Can't the $$$$ing conservatives get that pro-life doesn't mean "kill women"?
I am against a woman in her 28s having an abortion without the consent of the father of the child to be killed just because the child is inconvenient at this time for her career.
I am more ambivalent when it comes to a 17-years old teen although I am "slightly against".
Rape victims forced to drop their lives and bear the children of their rapist have me going "ehh... no. The woman didn't choose to take the risk of unprotected sex."

But this?! THIS?! You are not saving the child. That child cannot survive. It is like forcing a woman to carry to term a pregnancy when the fetus has a poorly developed heart and is expected to die within moments outside the womb. Also, it puts the woman in big risk.
What
the
feck ?


And speaking about stupid crap faux-pro-life idiots push:
Stop preaching "abstinence only". It's not going to happen. That ship has sailed. Stop teen pregnancies by having contraceptives over the counter at every state, that a woman can get with a few dollars without ID or anything. Give them out in the pharmacies, supermarkets, gas stations.
And have the "the morning after" pill as a very legal and very affordable option. And explain to girls and boys how those things work.

And go after the buttholes that don't use condoms or stealthily remove them before you go after the teens seeking abortions.

Feel free to read the text. The bill addresses the trafficking of "abortion inducing devices or drugs" (principally to target backroom/unlicensed abortions). The termination of ectopic pregnancies is treated as a felony only if the abortion was knowingly "performed, or induced or was attempted to be performed" with trafficked materials. This, presumably, is because of the danger posed by the termination/attempted termination of ectopic pregnancies by unlicensed persons. At no point does the bill attempt to prohibit the ending of ectopic pregnancies by licensed medical professionals.

[Coughdrop addict]

Feel free to read the text. The bill addresses the trafficking of "abortion inducing devices or drugs" (principally to target backroom/unlicensed abortions). The termination of ectopic pregnancies is treated as a felony only if the abortion was knowingly "performed, or induced or was attempted to be performed" with trafficked materials. This, presumably, is because of the danger posed by the termination/attempted termination of ectopic pregnancies by unlicensed persons. At no point does the bill attempt to prohibit the ending of ectopic pregnancies by licensed medical professionals.

So it's not banning ending ectopic pregnancies, just criminalizing the tools needed to do so as a roundabout way of killing women. It's a "wink wink" to his voters, who want women to suffer and die.

[Cope]

So it's not banning ending ectopic pregnancies, just criminalizing the tools needed to do so as a roundabout way of killing women. It's a "wink wink" to his voters, who want women to suffer and die.

False. The bill seeks to criminalize the use, or attempted use, of illegally/improperly (i.e. trafficked) produced, acquired, transported etc. abortion devices or drugs. There is nothing in the text which suggests that licensed clinics/hospitals in compliance with existing regulations would be prevented from ending ectopic pregnancies.

A person or entity commits the offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or drugs if such person or entity knowingly imports, exports, distributes, delivers, manufactures, produces, prescribes, administers, or dispenses or attempts to import, export, distribute, deliver, manufacture, produce, prescribe, administer, or dispense any instrument, device, medicine, drug, or any other means or substance to be used for the purpose of performing or inducing an abortion on another person in violation of any state or federal law.

https://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills221/hlrbillspdf/5798H.01I.pdf

[Sir Adrian]

The thread title is dangerously misleading. I urge everyone to read the text before replying or reacting.

[Coughdrop addict]

False. The bill seeks to criminalize the use, or attempted use, of illegally/improperly (i.e. trafficked) produced, acquired, transported etc. abortion devices or drugs. There is nothing in the text which suggests that licensed clinics/hospitals in compliance with existing regulations would be preventing from ending ectopic pregnancies.

Fact. The phrase "in violation of any state or federal law" is the giveaway. This law will be the one that is violated if any such medications and devices are used to end an ectopic pregnancy, as any use will be illegal and thus "trafficking".

I assume that the bill's supporters are very confused by all the outrage. 'So what if your wife or girlfriend dies? Just get a new one. I mean, you all are acting like women aren't replaceable and interchangeable.'

[Cope]

Fact. The phrase "in violation of any state or federal law" is the giveaway. This law will be the one that is violated if any such medications and devices are used to end an ectopic pregnancy, as any use will be illegal and thus "trafficking".

I assume that the bill's supporters are very confused by all the outrage. 'So what if your wife or girlfriend dies? Just get a new one. I mean, you all are acting like women aren't replaceable and interchangeable.'

It's the "giveaway" that the claim made in the thread title (borrowed from a misleading headline) is false. Though by all means, do cite the state/federal law which prohibits, either directly or indirectly, the ending of ectopic pregnancies.

[Coughdrop addict]

That's what this bill will prohibit. Saying "Oh no, it's just to prevent abortions." is just a way to work around current laws and avoid outright saying "Women are disposable chattel to us."

Should ectopic pregnancies be terminated? Or are women merely objects to be tossed aside once they cannot perform their sole function as baby-factories?

[Cope]

That's what this bill will prohibit.

Untrue. See above:

The termination of ectopic pregnancies is treated as a felony only if the abortion was knowingly "performed, or induced or was attempted to be performed" with trafficked materials. This, presumably, is because of the danger posed by the termination/attempted termination of ectopic pregnancies by unlicensed persons. At no point does the bill attempt to prohibit the ending of ectopic pregnancies by licensed medical professionals.

Saying "Oh no, it's just to prevent abortions." is just a way to work around current laws and avoid outright saying "Women are disposable chattel to us."

It was not claimed that the bill intended to "prevent abortions". It was claimed that the bill intended to prevent abortions performed with trafficked materials (which is obvious to those who have read the text).

From the bill (for those in the EU who cannot access):

A person or entity commits the offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or drugs if such person or entity knowingly imports, exports, distributes, delivers, manufactures, produces, prescribes, administers, or dispenses or attempts to import, export, distribute, deliver, manufacture, produce, prescribe, administer, or dispense any instrument, device, medicine, drug, or any other means or substance to be used for the purpose of performing or inducing an abortion on another person in violation of any state or federal law.

The offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or drugs is a class A felony if:

The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy.

[Coughdrop addict]

We seem to be talking past each other here:

A person or entity commits the offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or drugs if such person or entity knowingly imports, exports, distributes, delivers, manufactures, produces, prescribes, administers, or dispenses or attempts to import, export, distribute, deliver, manufacture, produce, prescribe, administer, or dispense any instrument, device, medicine, drug, or any other means or substance to be used for the purpose of performing or inducing an abortion on another person in violation of any state or federal law.

This is the part that will make terminating ectopic pregnancies illegal. It will be illegal to get these devices and drugs. Any attempt to get them at all will be considered trafficking. So this bill is anti-abortion, with the deaths of women with ectopic pregnancies just a nice bonus as far as it's supporters are concerned.

[Cyclops]

Does Missouri have any legal abortion for ectopic pregnancies? That is, are their any materials drugs etc that are legal for the purpose? If not this looks like an attempt to kill women for votes.

[Coughdrop addict]

At this point why even bother with the fig leaf? Just call it the Gilead fugitive breeding slave law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...supreme-court/

I'm sure that, like most conservative women, State Rep Mary Elizabeth Coleman assumes that once women are reduced to chattel, SHE will somehow be exempt. It has never occurred to her that the jackboot thugs these laws are meant to empower will turn against her once they no longer need her.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

As if the maternal death rate with 23,8 per 100000 life births wasn't already high enough in the US for a western industrialized country.

Maternal Mortality Rates in the United States, 2020 (cdc.gov)

In 2018 17,4 per 100000 life births, worser than Canada (8,6 per 100000) and for example Germany (3,2 per 100000).

Health Status : Maternal and infant mortality (oecd.org) (set the variable to maternal mortality!)

[Coughdrop addict]

As if the maternal death rate with 23,8 per 100000 life births wasn't already high enough in the US for a western industrialized country.

Maternal Mortality Rates in the United States, 2020 (cdc.gov)

In 2018 17,4 per 100000 life births, worser than Canada (8,6 per 100000) and for example Germany (3,2 per 100000).

Health Status : Maternal and infant mortality (oecd.org)

It's similar to the way the American right relies on appealing to racists. They need to throw a little red meat at their misogynist voters from time to time, and letting women die from ectopic pregnancies will doubtlessly please them.

Still, there is hope. I have heard stories that people are calling the Texas fugitive slave, er...illegal abortion hotline and falsely reporting prominent conservatives. This forces these jackboot thugs to waste time and money on wild goose chases, and causes inconvenience for their GOP overlords when they get reported.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

[Muizer]

From the bill (for those in the EU who cannot access):

"A person or entity commits the offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or drugs if such person or entity knowingly imports, exports, distributes, delivers, manufactures, produces, prescribes, administers, or dispenses or attempts to import, export, distribute, deliver, manufacture, produce, prescribe, administer, or dispense any instrument, device, medicine, drug, or any other means or substance to be used for the purpose of performing or inducing an abortion on another person in violation of any state or federal law."

The combination of "knowingly" and "to be used" would on the face of it make it almost impossible to prove. Except of course if you let a jury decide. Then anything is possible.

[Cope]

Does Missouri have any legal abortion for ectopic pregnancies? That is, are their any materials drugs etc that are legal for the purpose? If not this looks like an attempt to kill women for votes.

I have seen no evidence that treatment for ectopic pregnancies is unavailable in Missouri by licensed physicians (the termination of an ectopic pregnancy would not generally be classified as an abortion under state law because the fetus is outside of the womb and/or is likely deceased when detected). This legislation does not propose "banning" the termination of such pregnancies. It revises existing abortion/abortion-related regulations to criminalize the use of illegal abortifacients to treat a woman experiencing an ectopic pregnancy.

For those interested in Missouri's abortion/abortion-related regulations, see here.

[Bande Nere]

For those interested in Missouri's abortion/abortion-related regulations, see here.

Wow, these guys wrote a knowingly uncostitutional law and simply added "it will go in effect once Roe Vs. Wade is rejected by the Supreme Court".

Some real defenders of the Constitution.

Considering what some GOP "Holier than thou" led states have been doing lately about reproductive rights, making it illegal to give medical treatment of the kind DOES sound like another workaround for lawmakers to make abortion practically impossible to be obtainable by "legal" means, safely.