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Thread: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 26)

  1. #141

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Just some feedback on battle - usually I've been able to tie down multiple units with one of mine, but in a seige I had a unit of Hastati tying up a number of garrison units on a lane and to my surprise, I saw a couple of enemy units phase through and run through my unit like it wasn't even there and then re-engage while they were completely enveloped. Needless to say it insta decimated the Hastati. I've seen enemy units move around the sides as per usual but I havent' seen an enemy unit run though a packed unit in battle like that....

    In saying that it wasn't common but it was quite unwelcome.

  2. #142

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredz View Post
    Just some feedback on battle - usually I've been able to tie down multiple units with one of mine, but in a seige I had a unit of Hastati tying up a number of garrison units on a lane and to my surprise, I saw a couple of enemy units phase through and run through my unit like it wasn't even there and then re-engage while they were completely enveloped. Needless to say it insta decimated the Hastati. I've seen enemy units move around the sides as per usual but I havent' seen an enemy unit run though a packed unit in battle like that....

    In saying that it wasn't common but it was quite unwelcome.
    This has been a common occurance as well, also it seems Hoplites and Pikes are barely effected by getting surrounded by sword infantry. I had a battle against a Carthage and Syracuse army which both had a combined force of seven hoplites. I killed both generals, they were being shot it in the flanks by slingers for much of the game and had been surrounded completely, but would pull through my men, "surround" them and routed them! Needless to say I ragequit the battle that I had otherwise easily won and cursed the entire DEI team for about ten minutes. Seriously guys, what the gives?

  3. #143
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Both are engine issues.

    Hoplites are super easy to win, you can do that with rather small casualties but never just leave them surrounded. Game for some reason often forces units to engage phalanx units in1v1, which means that often they do not get penalties for being flanked. From front all phalanx attacks are unblockable and fully ingore melee defence, because for game they are collissions and not actual melee attacks. That being said even thureos swords parked at the back of higher tier hoplites kill few of them for own single casualty, if you cycle charge that is even easier to pull of with minimal casualties. Only way for phalanx units not to walk thorough others (since game forces them to ingore model collission after one of last CA patches) is to use Alternative Pike/Hoplite phalanx submod but it is not compatible with Beta, I will update it once Beta is released.
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  4. #144

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Both are engine issues.

    Hoplites are super easy to win, you can do that with rather small casualties but never just leave them surrounded. Game for some reason often forces units to engage phalanx units in1v1, which means that often they do not get penalties for being flanked. From front all phalanx attacks are unblockable and fully ingore melee defence, because for game they are collissions and not actual melee attacks. That being said even thureos swords parked at the back of higher tier hoplites kill few of them for own single casualty, if you cycle charge that is even easier to pull of with minimal casualties. Only way for phalanx units not to walk thorough others (since game forces them to ingore model collission after one of last CA patches) is to use Alternative Pike/Hoplite phalanx submod but it is not compatible with Beta, I will update it once Beta is released.
    Its alright KAM, I know "Pullthrough" is an issue with Warscape that was only "fixed" in Attila which made units have zero melee defense while moving. But in previous patches I never really noticed the enemy AI do pullthrough so consistently, like every single battle they either run from engagements or into my formations.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    You might be unlucky now I've seen that only once so far so not really sure what could have even influenced it. If that happens, could you list specific units that do that or take screens and PM them to me? Might be easier to find it. Could be that it does not happen in sutation A, B, C but happens always for D, E, F, etc.
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  6. #146

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Im getting beaten pretty bad by any sort of hoplites/spears formation units. Playing as Rome. I play Hard campaign and Normal battle. I can't win 1vs1 battle without taking massive casualities. I even checked my battle difficulty few times. Epirus is destroying me with their hoplites. I surround them and still get more casualities then they do. I also never seen my units rout so fast/often. Battle gameplay feels like its Very Hard difficulty.

  7. #147

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Freud View Post
    Im getting beaten pretty bad by any sort of hoplites/spears formation units. Playing as Rome. I play Hard campaign and Normal battle. I can't win 1vs1 battle without taking massive casualities. I even checked my battle difficulty few times. Epirus is destroying me with their hoplites. I surround them and still get more casualities then they do. I also never seen my units rout so fast/often. Battle gameplay feels like its Very Hard difficulty.
    Are you leaving your units in formation attack?

  8. #148
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    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    There is no formation attack in DeI Dardo.

    I will check out hoplites today.
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  9. #149

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    There is no formation attack in DeI Dardo.

    I will check out hoplites today.
    He probably means the "disciplined formation". I never used it before the beta update - never really felt like its needed. But I just gave it a try and it seemed to work better than the default formation. I still take causalities but little bit less than before which lets units stay there longer without routing. Are Romans supposed to use the disciplined formation all the time? I even liked it - fighting feels somewhat better, more tactical somewhat. I never tried it because default one was working - I would usually engage enemy hoplities face to face and then flank with another unit from behind and it would work. Another problem for Romans in the beginning of campaign when facing hoplites is that they lack proper sword units IMO (unless you build AUX barracks very fast or just wait for first reform)

    Also I saw few times what other guys reported - enemy units disengaging and running through my units without taking causalities and then attacking from behind. I think what happens is that AI tries to pull some of the units somewhere else where they see a threat, but when the unit gets behind AI sees the opportunity for the rear attack. At the same time it works sometimes too! For example: I was flanking with my cav, was on the way to hit enemies in their rear. AI disengaged one heavy spear unit and positioned it pretty well in my cav line of advance - I had to stop the cav and look for better opportunity! I loved it! Never saw it happen before.
    Last edited by Mr.Freud; June 15, 2020 at 03:50 PM.

  10. #150

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Yeah, he usually corrects me on that :p, turning it off makes them fare better against hoplites and pikes since they tend to surround the better, that is if you are focused on killing them, leaving them in disciplined formation will make them deal less damage against hoplites/pikes but also take less in my experience.

  11. #151

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dardo21 View Post
    Yeah, he usually corrects me on that :p, turning it off makes them fare better against hoplites and pikes since they tend to surround the better, that is if you are focused on killing them, leaving them in disciplined formation will make them deal less damage against hoplites/pikes but also take less in my experience.
    Yes. thats how I used to fight hoplites in default formation but it doesn't work anymore so I have to use disciplined to win me some time and hope I can get behind them and do some damage. But they somehow do a lot of damage even to the unit hitting them from behind.

  12. #152

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Agreed, Phalanx type infantry are monsters to try and face in any and all situations where a clean heavy cav charge to the back is unavailable. I propose maybe reducing the lethality of their attack but also maybe drastically increasing morale penalties of flanks and moreso for rear, even without cav charge to reflect how 'one trick pony' the phalanx formation actually historically was. To save a whole rework maybe adjusting lethality values but retaining their defensive values could be fine if the compensation is a morale rework that is weighted heavily to flank/rear attack shocks.

    In game Phalanxes are still quite mobile as a formation even though historically it wasn't but I think the morale penalties of even engaging them from sides and front would compensate and 'narratively' feel better as it fits the one key weakness of the formation.

    Aka greeks need to invest 150% into flank protection if they want to wield their wall of death.
    Last edited by Fredz; June 15, 2020 at 10:35 PM.

  13. #153

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Could it be that in beta campaign difficulty somehow messes up battle difficulty even when battle difficulty is set to normal?

  14. #154

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    I just gave up on the patch. I just saw heavy cav unit disengage/pull through 2 of my spear units without taking casualties and hit it from behind annihilating it. I tried to accept the fact that enemy inf units do it all the time (which is still a bug that needs to be fixed or the feature needs to be removed) causing a lot of damage and broken lines, but CAV now?... At the same time my cavalry struggles even against light missile units with no armor for some reason, they only inflict causalities when charging. As soon as charging phase ends - they getting killed by slingers LOL. Right now am looking at Apulii Extraordinarii (Epirus) destroying 3 units (535 kills so far) of my Early Principes - while being surrounded from all sides. They have 75 men left out of 200 and don't even waver, nowhere near routing. I have to engage them with levies in melee to hold them off. Overall its very hard to rout any enemy unit unless it's garrison militia.
    At first I thought - ok, I need to revisit my tactics now, this combat AI is great (which it really is) but there's no way to beat those heavy spears/phalanx/hoplites/very heavy inf units even if they are surrounded - they dont seem to notice it all - and their ability to run through and engage from behind is game braking.
    I've been playing DEI since it was first released. I love how AI is "smarter" now but there serious balancing issues somewhere IMO. Overall I would describe it like I'm playing on very hard battle difficulty where AI gets unbalanced buffs to the stats. I love the new features but it's unplayable.

  15. #155

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    I'm playing very hard campaign w/ normal battle and it also feels to me like the mod is bugged in some way and set it to very hard battle difficulty. Even garrison troops are proving hard to crack, including bloody mob. Note that in custom battles I haven't had nearly the same issues with enemies not routing, so I'm convinced its a bug with the campaign difficulty.

  16. #156

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Perhaps the VH Campaign only. Played some battles at N/N and H/N, and work as intended.

    Hoplites and Phalanx formation break very quickly when attacked at the flanks, but are monsters at the front, specially the Phalanxs.

  17. #157

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Same here, playing with Epirus since the beta launched (N/N), encountered no unusual behaviour when fighting phalanxes - pike or normal. Takes ages to take them down from the front, but they rout very quickly when hammer-and-anvil'd ( with cavalry or - more often in my case - threspotian infantry).

    Btw, the Apulii Extraordinarii are pretty much the best unit Epirus has until the thorax reforms kick in.

  18. #158
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Maybe campaign has someething to do with it.

    At least in custom battles, 2 units of worst Sean swords beat Athenian Logades, with unit attacking from front taking 3 losses for 1 killed hoplite and swords attacking from back killing 5 hoplites for 1 dead Sabean. That is without cycle charging, once they were in melee, the stayed till the end of battle.

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  19. #159

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    yes, something is wrong with campaign difficulty, it somehow messes up battle difficulty even if you change it to normal.

  20. #160

    Default Re: [PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 5)

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi82 View Post
    threspotian infantry
    THESPROTIAN YOUR DIRTY BARBARIAN! (Sorry love them, couldn't let that pass xD)

    They are absolutely killing machines!

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