[PUBLIC BETA] 1.2.5c Released! (Updated June 26)

[malachi82]

They are absolutely killing machines!

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

Yeah, these guys are amazing, my fav unit in the normal Epirus roster. Super versatile. I use them as some sort of hastati (with the Apulii as Principes) in my imitation maniple system. And most of the time, there´s not much left to kill for the Apulii.

[texass]

Does anyone else play with primarily cav? Ive played primarily the steppe factions(full stacks of shock and bow cav) and noticed that charges seem to cause almost no damage(can initiate routes from the back, but really dont cause as many casualties as it should). Ive played since Rome1, so have some background on the other titles. I tried TK recently and couldnt continue as the cav charges seemed way over compensated, just way too arcadey. Love the mod, The elephants seem great, definitely dont think the cav should be that strong but at least going 3-4 ranks deep when hitting units in the back seems right. Also if you dont hit a unit that is "stationary" charges are even less effective. When i try to charge into the back of an infantry spear unit that is running away from me(not routing, just moving away from me) instead of following through on the charge they seem to be engaging the back units and then stopping and starting regular melee rather than running straight over/through the back of the unit. Same with charging a melee unit that is running towards you, rather than knocking individual units down that are out of formation and continuing into charging the formation (as they can get rather scattered out of the rectangle/square when sprinting/charging ) they instead run past the unit semi making contact, which causes them to slow down and then it fizzles out into a melee rather than a charge. Just seems super ineffective. At the moment there doesnt seem to be a reason to recruit more expensive shot cavalry as ill get nearly same result with light bow cavalry. Dont know if this is something that can be changed or not, i know some things are limited due to the engine.

[Mr.Freud]

Yes, I noticed it too. Something is wrong with charges in beta patch.

[malachi82]

Been playing around with Athenai for the last couple of days (when became their roster that good? :p), here are some suggestions/observations:


- the last upgrade for the Athena temples is the Akropolis. Imo it would make more to sense to call it Temple of Athena Parthenos or just Parthenon. And it seems that the temple looses it's research bonus, which may make the upgrade rather detrimental.
And I don´t know if it´s possible, but it would be nice if the last upgrade could be branched out into Athena Parthenos and Athena Nike (giving military boni)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- is it possible to add the Theatre of Dionysos the corresponding Agora tree (after the Hippodrome) ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- the Mistophoroi Epilektoi have the same unit card as normal Thureophoroi, while sporting much more armour (and being awesome in general )

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- the Mistophroi Thorakitai are the only hellenic thorax unit (IIRC) to have 'Disciplined Formation'. Not that I'm complaining, but is this working as intended?

- Athenai Mistophoroi Epilektoi seem to be a veteran hoplite unit, but have thorax/thureophoroi unit card and description.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- the Logades elite hoplites look a bit...bland compared to their non-elite brethren (and curiously have more phrygian helmets than attic ones)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Logades on the right side, normal hoplites left. Speaking of the basic athenian hoplites, they have the generic hoplite unit card.



Anyway, the beta has been a blast to play so far, keep up the good work and thank you so much guys!!!!

Adding some more:


1.The Athenai Toxotai have the same unit card as the Psiloi Toxotai, making things a bit confusing when looking at the cards in battle/campaign.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2.The Athenai bodyguard cav is the standart hippeis unit, not the better epilektoi version. Working as intended?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

3.The Thureophoroi Mistophoroi have a unit with a rectangular shield representing them on their unit card.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

4.Some of the Seleukid Hetairoi Kataphraktoi have no helmets

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

5. Bad lighting (looks like inversed normals) on the helmet of some of the lower tier Qart Hadasht units.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

6. Thacian Hypaspists have lower armour values than their hellenic counterparts, but also the same low stamina. Maybe updgrade it to average or good?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Dresden]

@malachi82 Thanks for all the detailed feedback. We will probably be looking at Athens overall in an upcoming update but the help is always appreciated! I will check all of this out for the future, some of these like the missing helmets should be fixed next patch.

Does anyone else play with primarily cav? Ive played primarily the steppe factions(full stacks of shock and bow cav) and noticed that charges seem to cause almost no damage(can initiate routes from the back, but really dont cause as many casualties as it should). Ive played since Rome1, so have some background on the other titles. I tried TK recently and couldnt continue as the cav charges seemed way over compensated, just way too arcadey. Love the mod, The elephants seem great, definitely dont think the cav should be that strong but at least going 3-4 ranks deep when hitting units in the back seems right. Also if you dont hit a unit that is "stationary" charges are even less effective. When i try to charge into the back of an infantry spear unit that is running away from me(not routing, just moving away from me) instead of following through on the charge they seem to be engaging the back units and then stopping and starting regular melee rather than running straight over/through the back of the unit. Same with charging a melee unit that is running towards you, rather than knocking individual units down that are out of formation and continuing into charging the formation (as they can get rather scattered out of the rectangle/square when sprinting/charging ) they instead run past the unit semi making contact, which causes them to slow down and then it fizzles out into a melee rather than a charge. Just seems super ineffective. At the moment there doesnt seem to be a reason to recruit more expensive shot cavalry as ill get nearly same result with light bow cavalry. Dont know if this is something that can be changed or not, i know some things are limited due to the engine.

Yes, I noticed it too. Something is wrong with charges in beta patch.

I believe KAM is aware of the current issues with charge, especially charging fleeing units and other issues like that. I think he is working on it currently. Thanks for the feedback.

[PwnageEngage]

I was wondering if you guys would consider doubling or tripling the cost of agent actions? Also horse upgrades are stupid cheap and could be balanced.

My problem is that I usually have no problem with Economy when playing either as Averni or Rome once i hit my first 2 provinces. More expensive agent actions would make for interesting strategic choices in the early game I think.

Also when can we expect the patch on the steam workshop? I'm considering starting a new playthrough but i'd rather just wait for the new patch :3

[gesuntight]

The Etruscans are not playable in the main campaign for me anymore with the AFP submod.
Might be something on my end though since I messed with their tables in the main mod.

[KAM 2150]

I have some new ideas to change cavalry charge dynamic and some issues that caused other weird results. I will share them once I test them but it should help with the issues.

One other thing I noticed is how fatigue impacts charges. Basically, fatigue has a stat that lowers unit bracing...but it is not bracing, it is unit mass. So this caused cavalry to drop their mass value heavily, causing them to be rather weak especially later on in battle. I will tweak these values.

[Mr.Freud]

One other thing I noticed is how fatigue impacts charges. Basically, fatigue has a stat that lowers unit bracing...but it is not bracing, it is unit mass. So this caused cavalry to drop their mass value heavily, causing them to be rather weak especially later on in battle. I will tweak these values.

Exactly what I feel. As soon as unit drops bellow 80% it does less damage and its most noticeable with CAV. Another thing I might have noticed, but Im not 100% sure, is that angle of attack somehow messes with damage done. I think its most noticeable when unit in a formation (wedge, disciplined etc). For example - I place cav unit in wedge behind enemy unit. I charge and it does almost no damage. I disengage, place it in straight angle again and now it does damage when charging. Here's what I mean https://imgur.com/Vnw8Bnt

p.s. Maybe we should make a petition to CA to upgrade Rome 2 with the latest engine version they used for Three Kingdoms? That would make Rome 2 playable for many years, and they could make more money from it.

[Iskandar]

@KAM

I have a couple of questions/suggestions. Regarding thorax spears in general and Carthaginian ones in particular - what's the point of them? When compared to the thorax hoplites, they don't have phalanx, which makes them perform decidedly worse in direct combat and the only compensation for that is slightly higher speed (not even a full point bump). This might be an issue with the phalanx formation itself being too strong, but as it is, there is no incentive to switch from hoplites to thorax spears. Perhaps a full point speed bump to 3, adding precursors (some Greek Thorax Spears have them), adding disciplined formation or some combination of the above might ameliorate the situation.

I would also argue for adding disciplined formation to the Thorax Swords, since they are based on Hannibal's Italian veterans, which gradually shifted toward Roman equipment and more flexible/adaptable formations (which were anyway native to the Samnites and Bruttians from which he had to replenish his ranks later on) . It would certainly place them on more equal footing with the principes, as evidenced by the later stages of the Italian campaign and the battle of Zama.

The other thing is concerning the Numidian cavalry. They seem to have been excellent skirmishing cavalry, despite being in general not armored, relying on repeated charge and disengage cycles. They did outperform the Roman cavalry on most occasions in the 2nd Punic war, which was definitely much better equipped, even if of lesser numbers and horsemanship. Given the limitations of the RTW engine, it's kinda hard to simulate that, since they get so many casualties on disengage, plus anything better than basic skirmishers in terms of infantry is able to overwhelm them. I've fared somewhat better when using the Numidian mercs from Numidia and Mauretania's merc pool (they have 11 armor, vs 4 for the Numidians in the basic roster, otherwise comparable stats) but access to them is quite limited. Now that I think about it, the Arverni Light Horse performs better than the Numidians from the Carthage base roster, which should not be the case.

And last one, can anyone recommend a good book on Alexander thoroughly examining him as a general and a statesman? Ditto for Phillip.

[KAM 2150]

Thorax spears are in the middle of revamp, I havent finished it yet but they will get own formation that is usable by both player and AI.

As for Numidians, they also come with few unique abilities tho keep in mind that they were not noted for melee, rather hit and run tactics and deadly javelins. They also have quite high combat stats. I will focus a bit more on their easier disengage, they already have fastest acceleration from all cavalry units.

[texass]

Do yall know of any bugs with Scythian Reforms? I knocked the roxolani out relatively quick, confederated them within maybe 10-15 turns. Own all the steppe areas, pushed bosphorus into the caucasus mountains. Advanced all the way to starting area of the Sauka but did not press into their territory. Im on turn 197 and no reforms have kicked in, the unit that requires them says i need a different reform level. Any ideas?

[Fluke]

Thorax spears are in the middle of revamp, I havent finished it yet but they will get own formation that is usable by both player and AI.

My Thureos spears also feel underpowered once engaged in melee when facing (supposedly obsolete by that time frame) hoplites.

[Big_guy_4_you]

Regular Thureos Spears? Against Regular Hoplites? Bro Thureos Spears are basically light spearmen with skirmishing capabilities, and are used to screen the army against cavalry and attack at the flanks. Hoplites are much more heavily armored, and less mobile. They are proper heavy infantry, outmoded not because of being inferior in brawls but because of a lack of tactical flexibility (Unlike the Thureos spears).

[Dresden]

Do yall know of any bugs with Scythian Reforms? I knocked the roxolani out relatively quick, confederated them within maybe 10-15 turns. Own all the steppe areas, pushed bosphorus into the caucasus mountains. Advanced all the way to starting area of the Sauka but did not press into their territory. Im on turn 197 and no reforms have kicked in, the unit that requires them says i need a different reform level. Any ideas?

Its possible you haven't reached the battle counter but I am pretty sure its only 10 battles against other factions of that type. The confederation may have negated that part. I haven't tested those reforms in a long time. If I remember there is a territorial component also but it could be not working. If you post your save I can investigate it. Thanks!

[texass]

Thanks! Ill attach the save. I ended up starting a new campaign cause i was so frustrated lol on the new campaign i did not confederate anyone and i ended up getting the reforms on turn 93. My assumption would be that the confederation bugged it somehow.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LQX...ew?usp=sharing

[juanplay]

Do the horse mass and class changes affect the empire divided campaign factions?

[Paavontius]

Thank you for the amazing mod! I have played it for years and now is the first time I've encountered an issue I think you should be aware of.

I am playing as Atropatkan with the latest version of the beta patch. I confederated with a persian faction called Harauvatis, but the name of my faction did not change. As far as I understood confederating with a faction as Atropatkan should change it to Eranshah. Is it a bug or an oversight?

[Dresden]

Thank you for the amazing mod! I have played it for years and now is the first time I've encountered an issue I think you should be aware of.

I am playing as Atropatkan with the latest version of the beta patch. I confederated with a persian faction called Harauvatis, but the name of my faction did not change. As far as I understood confederating with a faction as Atropatkan should change it to Eranshah. Is it a bug or an oversight?

I thought I had it setup to change properly, I will investigate thanks!

Thanks! Ill attach the save. I ended up starting a new campaign cause i was so frustrated lol on the new campaign i did not confederate anyone and i ended up getting the reforms on turn 93. My assumption would be that the confederation bugged it somehow.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LQX...ew?usp=sharing

Yep I bet it did somehow bug it, I will still try to see whats up. It should be either battles (which didnt happen due to confederation) OR territory held. I think the territory part is currently bugged so I can use this save to fix it. Thanks!

Do the horse mass and class changes affect the empire divided campaign factions?

It should affect all units.

[RollingWave]

I've managed to get to the final scythian reform in my most recent campaign but I also note that in other campaigns I had trouble getting there as well.