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Thread: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    House Cup 2.0

    This proposal in a nutshell:


    • Citizens earn ‘House Points’ passively through their daily, routine activities, and actively through participating in regular competitions and events run through the Curia. Members of the House receiving the most points get to wear a custom badge on their profile for one year.
    • The Curia keeps its current functions, but new subforums are added to accommodate House groups, which will provide an ancillary form of social interaction for citizens. A committee is elected from members of each House to help assist the Curator in planning and running regular competitions.


    Well it’s been six years since we last discussed this. Doom and gloom has permeated the Curia for many, many years now, as we’ve struggled to find a way forward. For my part, I believe this is the best thing we could do. I’ve been up and down off my soapbox for the better part of three years now, talking about what I want the Curia to be, but without ever putting my money where my mouth was.

    So here you are, here’s an actual proposal, with what I believe the Curia should do and how it could go about doing it. I don’t believe it will garner much support, seeing as similar ideas have failed before – and we’re even farther removed from such ancient traditions as Houses now than we were even back then. I still think it would be best if there was a thread where every citizen, Curialist or not, got together and gave their own opinions on what they want out of the Curia, but I’m sceptical of that happening, despite the valiant efforts of a few. So before the Curia votes itself out of existence, let me at least offer an alternative vision, just so I can say that I tried.

    Bold parts are the important tl;dr stuff.


    House Points and the House Cup

    Key Points

    • Every citizen earns House Points through their daily activities on the site
    • Every year, the House with the most points wins the ‘House Cup’, and its members can wear a custom badge on their profile
    • Additional points can be earned through participation in specific competitions and events, held regularly throughout the year


    House Points

    Through participating in their daily activities on the site, citizens can accrue points for their House, which, at the end of the year, will be tallied to decide who wins the annual House Cup. The benefit of this system is that citizens who do not wish to be directly involved can still participate through doing their ordinary activities on the site. Although the exact maths might require some work, here are some things we could consider:

    • Placing 3rd in a regular competition (TotW, MAARC, MCWC, PotF, POTW etc): 3 point
    • Placing 2nd in a regular competition: 5 points
    • Placing 1st in a regular competition: 10 points
    • Releasing a mod as a mod leader: 100 points
    • Releasing a mod as a team member: 50 points
    • Releasing a sub mod as a mod leader: 50 points
    • Releasing a sub mod as a team member: 25 points
    • Releasing a mod patch: 10 points per everyone involved
    • Winning a yearly member award: 25 points
    • Winning a large award: 50 points
    • Winning a medium award: 25 points
    • Receiving a staff award: 10 points per tier
    • Receiving a competition medal (Writers’ Study, PotW, Guessing Game etc): 10 points per tier
    • Writing a blog post: 5 points (limited to once a month)
    • Having an article archived in the Scriptorium: 10 points
    • Creating a wiki page: 1 point*
    • Editing a wiki page: 1 point*
    • Updating an AAR or other story: 5 points (limited to once/twice a month)
    • Posting a strategy guide: 5 points
    • Publishing an article for a content publication: 10 points

    *Obviously with some discretion with regard to the amount of work actually put in; not sure how to quantify it though, maybe some kind of word count.

    Naturally I’m sure we could think of many more ways to earn points, but all of the above require no additional involvement in the Curia or the House system by the individual citizen. So those citizens who don’t wish to be directly involved don’t have to be, whilst those who do gain an additional incentive to do what they were already doing in the first place, and are able to go one step further and contribute even more to the site in order to benefit their House.

    An ongoing points tally will be maintained publicly by the Curator and the Curial staff over the course of the year, to be updated every month, with daily/weekly updates in the month preceding the awarding of the House Cup.

    House Cup

    At the end of the year, the House with the most House Points wins the House Cup. This would be like an annual member award, but for the collective citizens of a House, rather than an individual member. Naturally I’m sure most people don’t like the idea of giving every member of a house their own version of the award to be displayed on their profile, so this can instead be something that is recorded in a House-specific thread (see below). However, the benefit of winning the House Cup is that every member of that House gets to wear a customised House badge for the following year, identifying them as a member of the winning House. So instead of wearing a citizen badge, you could wear a specific House of Caesars, or Imperial House of Hader badge, for example. If your House wins the following House Cup, you may keep it, but otherwise the winning House gets this honour, and you will lose access to the appropriate user group.

    House Competitions

    The House Point system naturally rewards Houses with the most members, so additional competitions and events can be run throughout the year, wherein those Houses with a smaller core of active members can earn more points for winning than their peers in larger Houses. These competitions should have some structure and rigidity – for example, one annual competition and one quarterly competition, with additional one-off or special competitions to be held at the discretion of the Houses and the Curia.

    The nature of these competitions can be discussed, but I think it is imperative that they have some link to the Total War franchise, which is what binds all of us together, regardless of our House or the areas of the board we frequent. Perhaps sometimes we could have non-TW competitions, but otherwise it’s good for us to stick to our roots. Some potential competition ideas could be:


    • A Total War speedrun competition: how fast can you complete the objectives of a Total War campaign? This could maybe be done in a baton fashion, wherein one citizen plays for an hour, before passing the save file over to another person in their House. Whoever completes a campaign with the fastest time wins.
    • A Total War bracket tournament (what it says on the tin), perhaps with each House putting forward a number of citizens to play in a team format, or each House electing a ‘champion’ to fight on their behalf.
    • A special screenshot or video competition, akin to PotW, but perhaps with some additional twists to allow cooperation between citizens of the same House.


    Again, I’m sure we could think of many more if we put our minds to it. Depending of the nature of the competition though, the amount of points awarded to the winning teams would differ depending on the size of their House. Perhaps Houses with <25 members could be Tier A, Houses with 25-50 members could be Tier B, and Houses with 50+ members could be Tier C. Whilst if we have one larger annual competition and several smaller quarterly/seasonal ones, the annual one should award more points, but to demonstrate this system, let’s say:


    • 1st Place: A – 500 points, B – 250 points, C – 100 points
    • 2nd Place: A – 250 points, B – 100 points, C – 50 points
    • 3rd Place: A – 100 points, B – 50 points, C – 25 points


    Whilst this seems unfair, it allows smaller Houses to compete against the larger Houses that will be accruing more ‘daily’ House Points through their regular activities. Also, larger Houses are still encouraged to compete, as even if they gain less points that smaller Houses, by winning they will still be denying those extra points to their smaller rivals.

    House Events

    Alongside competing, I think it would also be beneficial for Houses to earn points on their own initiative, by launching events of their own. Whatever events these were would have to be green lit by the Curator/Curia, but could allow for Houses to earn points by hosting events of a non-competitive nature for the site. For example, a House could host a 24 hour livestream, where they play Total War games for a full day, perhaps to raise money for the site. Or perhaps a House could cooperate to create a mod together over the course of a year. I think there are a lot of opportunities for members to cooperate with each other to do good for the site, outside of a competitive setting, and we could get very imaginative with what these events are. This is also an opportunity for Houses to work together with each other for the benefit of TWC, rather than solely competing against each other.

    The Curia and the Curator

    Key Points:

    • Curator is an impartial overseer and final arbiter, mediates between Houses
    • Curators forgoes House affiliation and ability to earn points for the year in which he/she has served a term. Other Curial officials cannot earn points whilst in office
    • Curia otherwise retains much of its current function


    The Curator and Curial Officials

    I don’t envisage much of a change in role of the Curator/Consul, who will still have the function of overseeing and administering the Curia. However, on top of this role, they will now be invested with the power to mediate between and coordinate the various Houses. As such, the Curator and their staff will be responsible for tallying House points, making sure no one tries to ‘overclaim’, providing objective and impartial assistance in the running of any competitions or events, as well as having the discretion to permit or deny any House initiatives that fall outside of whatever structure we might eventually agree upon. Also, any problems that may arise between Houses can be resolved through the office of the Curator.

    It is thus vital that the Curator remains impartial and unaffiliated with any House. As such, when the Curator takes office, they forgo their House for the remainder of that year, up until the House Cup has been awarded. As such, the Curator will not accrue any House Points for their House, will not be allowed to participate in any competitions on behalf of their House, or receive the benefits of a custom badge should their House win the House Cup. Whilst I think it would be best that the Curator serves for a one year term in this instance, I know this might not necessarily be palatable or even realistic. As such, even if a Curator only serves one four-month term and we have three Curators in the space of a single year, none will be able to earn House Points after taking office, even after they have resigned their position – nor will they enjoy any of the rewards their House may receive for winning the House Cup.

    As for Curial staff (assistants, Consuls and Praefects etc), they will be unable to earn any House Points or participate in activities as members of their House whilst they are in office, but after leaving office they may return to their normal status. If it is found that any Curial officer has conspired to influence Curial proceedings for the benefit of their House or to the detriment of another, they may be subject to Ostrakon.

    Given that the burdens on the Curator will be increased, I see no reason why they couldn’t increase the size of their staff to aid them in their endeavours if needed.

    The Curia

    I see no problem with the Curia retaining its current function, in terms of Magistrate elections, putting forward proposals, and voting on awards and citizen applications, although as this proposal is already proposing to add something new in its place, then I personally don’t mind if some current Curial functions are dissolved and moved to other parts of the site (i.e. the QS). Truth be told, from a practical standpoint, they could mostly all be scrapped without affecting this initiative. If there is anything the Curia currently does that conflicts with the fundamental nature of my proposition (or could do further that would benefit it), then I am of course open to discussion on that. Ordinarily, I wouldn't countenance the idea of scrapping the Curia, but that's the way the wind has been blowing lately. As such, this proposal is designed to function either way: if we keep things as is, the Houses and the House Cup are a supplementary addition that doesn't get in the way of things; if we scrap everything, then we can shift the focus onto Houses as being the new Curia, with a solely social function as opposed to an administrative one.

    Houses and the Curia

    Key Points:

    • Each House elects a leader, who assumes responsibility and authority over their House, subject to individual House rules and traditions, and Curial oversight
    • Each House elects a Curial representative, who sits on a House Council with the Curator and Primus Praefect, in order to run competitions and facilitate inter-House communication and cooperation
    • Each House receives a private subforum in the Curia, in which its members can communicate and coordinate with each other, whilst maintaining a public ‘House thread’, detailing histories, genealogies and other pertinent information


    House Leaders

    I think it’s important that every House has a leader, and someone who will take authority over and responsibility for that House – if only symbolically. However, whilst the Curia can set a definition and limit on the power of any such individual, I think each House should have some autonomy over how they elect their leader and the scope of their leader’s authority. Naturally I don’t know all the traditions and cultures of the other Houses, but these are important to revive and maintain (or even to create from scratch if need be), and it will be up to each House leader to both embody the spirit of their House and make efforts to oversee it. Some Houses may have their original founder active, and will see him/her as an eternal leader who will always maintain control over the House. Some active founders may wish to devolve their power and have someone lead in their stead. Other Houses without their founder active may wish to democratically elect a leader to serve permanently or for a fixed term. Other Houses may wish to be a republic of sorts, who have no leader at all. Obviously sorting all this out, especially when Houses have been left by the wayside for so long, would take time and effort, but this process can be overseen, aided and coordinated by the Curator and his staff.

    The House Council

    It’s not the CdeC, trust me! I know whenever anyone sees the term ‘council’ they get a bit scared, but this body would have no Curial authority. Instead, its members are simply ambassadors to the Curia from each House, who will sit together to help coordinate events and competitions for the benefit of the site. Each House can nominate a member to sit on this council, who will be the House’s representative in the Curia. Sitting with the Curator, the Primus Praefect and maybe a member of Hex, these Councillors can relay information to the Curator about the state of their Houses (especially when it comes to the tallying of House Points every month), and feed back Curial information to their Houses, as well as be involved in setting up and running inter-House competitions and events, assisting the Curator and his/her staff. As such, they are the link between the Houses and the Curia. It is a fact that many citizens don’t like the Curia as it is now, and it may take a long time to change that. It is also the case that many may not like or be interested in this House system, so I think it’s important to have at least one member of a House who can go to the Curia in their stead and represent them when they would rather not ‘get their hands dirty’. For smaller Houses, the leader of the House could take on this responsibility, but larger Houses could elect their own Councillors for a fixed term. Unlike Curial officers, they could still accrue House Points, but if they are involved in the setting up and running of any House competition, they could not participate in them.

    As I anticipate this being a sticking point, let me address the question of whether or not another one of those darn committees is a good thing or not. Firstly, the Curia has traditionally always been the place of committees, where we could draw upon the knowledge and expertise of a cross-section of the community to better improve the site. We scrapped them all a few years ago because streamlining, so newer members might be forgiven for not knowing this. But committee doesn't equal CdeC (which is the only one anyone ever seems to remember), and they aren't inherently bad. Secondly, I don't think the Curator and his/her staff should have to bear the burden of organising everything alone, and it would be good for individual Houses to chip in and do their bit. Thirdly, without this, and some kind of House infrastructure to back it up, I feel that having a House Cup and these kind of competitions will be quite vapid, as we won't really be interacting with each other much otherwise. Yes we could have House Points and people could earn them just by doing their usual thing, but it isn't really a platform to build upon, it would just simply exist. Having the Houses be actively involved in creating and sustaining them is a better impetus for continued change, giving them more agency. Lastly, it is House members, rather than the Curator, who stand to gain from making sure competitions run regularly, so they will have motivation and cause to see this task is carried out, and as such should be involved in their administration.

    Public and Private House Spaces

    I think it would be good to have an official private subforum for each House, wherein its members could communicate and coordinate their activities. Obviously we have Groups, but this is quite an outdated and limited system. I’m sure this idea will bump into resistance from a technical stand point, but I still think it would be for the benefit of this proposal overall if Houses could have an official private space of their own on the forum. If a House doesn’t meet a certain threshold of active members, then they can be denied this privilege. But through having this space for themselves, Houses can function with autonomy and agency and can do things as a unit, coming up with their own initiatives and projects.

    Having a public sticky thread somewhere in the Curia would also be useful, to record and display any information a House might like to make known; a history of the House, or traditions, members, awards and what not, and serving also as a recruitment ground of sorts for non-citizens who might wish to join a specific House. It can also be a place where individual Houses can make announcements about their events or their general goings-on.

    Moving and Building Houses

    Key Points

    • Houses prepare and submit a document outlining their identity and function moving forward
    • Citizens without a House who would like to join one, or citizens who wish to change House may do so after discussion with the Curator and leader of the House they wish to join
    • Citizens may create a new House at the discretion of the Curator
    • Citizens who don’t want to be in a House can opt out


    Building a House

    It has been a long, long time since Houses were last relevant. I imagine many citizens don’t even know what House they belong to, what their House represents or its history. As such, it is an important first step for current Houses to take the time to figure these things out. Whilst we can build upon much of PikeStance’s historical and genealogical work, as well as old wiki articles and LHF and Symposium threads, many of these ancient identities might not reflect the current makeup of a House. As such, a period of time should be set aside for Houses to rediscover their roots and/or define a new identity for themselves. This would involve discussions held amongst members of each House (before, during and after they would elect their leader), and some kind of document submitted to the Curia – perhaps forming the basis of their public House sticky thread. Herein they can perhaps outline the members of their House, past and present; the history of the House, why it was created and what it represents; and the future of the House going forward, as decided by its modern members. The Curator and perhaps a select group of ‘historians’ can be on hand to help out with this process. Importantly however, for citizens who don't currently care about their House or the House system, this is a chance for them to approach it with a clean slate, and create something that reflects them and the modern TWC, whilst giving them the chance also to make some new friends along the way.

    Joining a New House

    If this system were to be implemented, there may be active citizens who: do not care for their current House; have no especial attachment to their House; are the sole member of their House; or do not have a House at all. As such, within a certain grace period of a few weeks or months, it should be permissible that any such individuals who wish to change House be allowed to do so, provided they receive permission from both the Curator and the Leader of the House in question. As such, they could transfer their citizenship to a willing patron in another House, thereby becoming a member of a new House. Any ‘children’ of such citizens may follow their patron in moving House, thereby retaining their family line, or have their citizenship automatically transferred to their ‘grandparent’, thus remaining in their current House. Or they could even go about...

    Creating a New House

    It may also be the case that likeminded citizens may wish to form a new House; either as a group of equals, or as a family line. Should anyone wish to form a new House they can apply to the Curator, who will ratify it according to a set of regulations and restrictions we would have to discuss beforehand. Open to ideas on that one.

    Who Would Want to Live in a House?

    Citizens who don’t want to be a part of a House or be involved in this scheme at all can opt out. Although the point of this is to inspire them to get involved, I know it’s not for everyone, and no one should be forced into this is they don’t want to be.

    Conclusion

    Pros

    • Non-intrusive. No one is forced to participate if they don’t want to, but their contributions to the site can still make a difference.
    • Actually fun. No elitism, or arguing, or political drama; just a fun new way to experience the site.
    • Benefits the site. House Points provide a new incentive to contribute to the site, generating activity.
    • Total War. We might actually feel more like a TW fansite if we ran some regular site-wide TW competitions, encouraging people to pick up the games again.
    • Low-effort(ish). Whilst it would take a lot to organise from an administrative perspective, it doesn’t ask a lot of ordinary citizens, who can just do what they’ve always done, but with some new extra things to participate in if they want to.
    • Brings people together. It gets citizens to interact with the other people in their Houses more, as well as giving people the potential to get to know those in other Houses through events and competitions.
    • Revitalises Citizenship. Gives Citizens something to work towards, and something to do with their Citizenship beyond the Curia.
    • Encourages patronisation. I mean, you'd be getting more potential points for your House. Not the best reason to patronise, but hey, there are plenty worse.
    • Retains Curial history and tradition. By re-imbuing Houses with a purpose, we can keep alive the legacy of our forebears, whilst nevertheless still having the opportunity to modernise them and use them as a platform for activity and change to suit the current membership.
    • Improves the public image of Citizenry and the Curia. Maybe, I hope?
    • Groundwork has already been laid. Thanks to the efforts of PikeStance in particular, as well as a few others, we have a much better handle of who's who in the Curia and who belongs in which House, so it wouldn't be as difficult as it once was to get people together into the correct groups in order to compete.
    • Doesn’t infringe upon staff. Everything is designed to work within the current site apparatus, without taking authority or agency away from the official staff. Any additional competitions run by the Curia are ‘for fun’, and need not detract from anything staff does. In fact, having the Curia actually get up off its proverbial rear and run some site-wide competitions and events might take some of the burden off staff's shoulders.


    Cons

    • Asks people to care. Houses are an ancient tradition, which many people have forgotten about – if ever they even cared about them in the first place. This initiative could struggle if people refused to buy into it. I've tried to make this as palatable to the broadest cross-section of the Citizenry as possible, from those who really like Houses, to those who are curious about or ignorant of them, to those who aren't really bothered either way, but obviously I cannot force people to care.
    • Could ostracise people who don’t want to participate. Even if they are not being forced to participate in anything, those citizens who don’t want to be involved with their House might still feel aggrieved if decisions are being made about them by others members of their House. Could also create conflict within Houses between people who disagree on how they should be run.
    • Potential to divide communities. Whilst Houses gather together members of certain Houses, pitting them against each other could create animosity and division. I’d hope to balance competition with cooperation, but dividing people up into their Houses has as much potential to push people away as it does bring them together, if not done in the right spirit.
    • Requires sustained effort. This couldn’t be a one-off proposal, it would be the future of the Curia and the site writ large, and would require the continued participation and acceptance of everyone moving forward, otherwise it would fail. Whilst ordinary members and citizens can enjoy their day regardless, Curial officials and House representatives would need to put in serious work year on year to sustain this.
    • Creates bureaucracy. Expands upon Curial administration and throws in a new committee to boot. Whilst appealing to some of the old guard, I know a lot of other people won’t like that.
    • Could create technical problems. With the absence of GED and our tech support, this could create technical issues when it comes to implementing badges, user groups, subforums and permissions.
    • Excludes non-citizens and ordinary members. Given that Houses are by definition the domain of citizens, such a proposition excludes non-citizens, who wouldn't get to participate in this system as it currently stands. Whilst we could hope it inspired people to become citizens, it could have the reverse effect.


    Note: I post this in the Prothalamos not because I want to vote on it right now, but because I feel people will interact with it more here, and because I hope it will also garner the attention and insight of certain non-citizens, particularly as to whether or not they would think more positively of the Curia if it moved in this direction. It’s also just a rough collection of my thoughts at 5am, rather than anything concrete. Much discussion and deliberation would be required to refine this, if anyone even found it palatable. There was more I wanted to add about linking Houses to specific sections of the site, and having Curial ambassadors to represent different communities, but it didn't really mesh with how this idea panned out in the end; ideally I'd like the Curia to benefit the whole site, not just citizens, but even if this proposal doesn't do that right now, maybe it can be a step in that direction. Plus this is already 4,000 words long, and that's probably enough to be getting on with for the time being.

    Much obliged.
    Last edited by Hitai de Bodemloze; April 19, 2020 at 09:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Support. Great proposal Hitai.

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  3. #3
    makanyane's Avatar Content Director
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    That's a very impressive proposal + rep

    it's much too impressive to try to reply to all of it - there's a couple of points that stuck out on first glance;
    Non-intrusive. No one is forced to participate if they don’t want to, but their contributions to the site can still make a difference.
    I'd suggest you'd really need the people you're counting the contributions for to opt-in on a deliberate basis. But, that could also make it easier to do the actual counting, and limit the issue with large historic houses, and members who've probably got no idea they've been claimed by one...

    Creating a wiki page: 1 point*
    Editing a wiki page: 1 point*
    nooooo - that's like doing things based on post count - not every addition of words is actually useful! You could asign points for winning a level of the wiki medals (and similar special contribution medals).


    On the technical level - could much/some of this work by using the bits of the site that everyone can access without needing tech staff? e.g. use Social Groups for house discussions, allow use of a certain logo in your sig "winning house 2020.jpg" ?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    I didn't quite the letter of acceptance to the Hogwarts but this seems the closest way for me to attend the house competitions, haha.

    Very nicely crafted proposal by the way!

  5. #5
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    A great idea in principle. It's clear you've put a lot of time and effort into putting this together, so well done and +rep for that. I'm a fan of Houses, and wish they had greater relevance than they do, but I doubt that there are enough Citizens active in the Curia for this particular concept, which seems quite large-scale, to be maintained, let alone actively participated in. There are, say, 20 members active in the Curia these days at most (including non-Citizens)? That equates to a few active members per house, minus those who are ineligible to actually participate because they are the ones actually organising the activities (the Curator and the committee members). It seems like a lot of work on its own for a Curator and their team they have with them to check every member of every house (I'm assuming any Citizen who is currently active on TWC is included in this, not just the ones who are active in the Curia) to see who has fulfilled the criteria to accrue points. I admire whoever puts their hand up for that job, and that's just the beginning of this proposal.
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  6. #6
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    I was just writing this as I read it, so I've noticed you subsequently addressed some of these issues

    - I reckon the winning team getting to wear a special badge for an entire year is too long, it should be 4 or 6 months.
    - It seems like heaps of work to collate the points. Maybe each House could appoint someone from it who would help the Curator with it? If your House appointee doesn't help out, your House doesn't get any points.
    - I reckon the Houses should be remade so they're full of active members. Barely anyone actually cares about the House of Wilpuri or House of WBK.
    - I don't think there should be individual House rules

    Ultimately I reckon it'll create too much bureaucracy, and there aren't enough citizens to support it or who would even care though.




  7. #7
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    I read this proposal diagonally, so excuse me if this is already addressed, but how do you ensure fairness and prevent parts of this from becoming a popularity contest. What is to stop a house from voting against someone or not voting honestly in site competitions just so they are the ones to get the award. If the largest house block-votes its own members regularly it can be enough to derail both the cup and whatever competition is being voted on.


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  8. #8
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I read this proposal diagonally, so excuse me if this is already addressed, but how do you ensure fairness and prevent parts of this from becoming a popularity contest. What is to stop a house from voting against someone or not voting honestly in site competitions just so they are the ones to get the award. If the largest house block-votes its own members regularly it can be enough to derail both the cup and whatever competition is being voted on.
    It is a valid question, although I don't think much can be done to prevent it turning a popularity contest. Then again I wouldn't be too concerned about now; I'd give it a try and we can see what happens. It's been a long since I was here on the site so I don't have the facts but I kinda assume that the activity on the competition front have been a bit lower than what it used to be back in the days. If the House Cup brings more attention and people participating within those communities, it could be worth a try. It will be easy to monitor if the votes will be hijacked by some voting blocks, then some corrective action can be decided.

  9. #9
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    aha great idea, takes me back to secondary school lol. support
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    I wish I could support, but... managing overhead in executing this, the already clearly present and overwhelming bias to one house, and my experience with people involving themselves in things like this even if it's 'low effort' on their end (which it certainly isn't at a management level) produce significant drawbacks.

    Perhaps with volunteers who would want to put substantial time in this, I could say 'eh, give it a go', but as it stands, I cannot support this initiative, because I believe it is destined to die early if it even manages to live at all. Call it pessimism; I call it my experience with member-managed tabulation and competition based on activity with tight-knit groups that easily take the overwhelming share of participation. And there is no easy way for TWC to really even out the balance without significant change to the proposal and the houses themselves.

    Yeah, I know, I'm a pooper. Get one more person to definitively say 'support' and it's still viable to try out, I certainly don't mind being proven wrong when it comes to assessments like these.

  11. #11
    Flinn's Avatar The power of the Dark Side is unlimited! (cash)
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I wish I could support, but... managing overhead in executing this, the already clearly present and overwhelming bias to one house, and my experience with people involving themselves in things like this even if it's 'low effort' on their end (which it certainly isn't at a management level) produce significant drawbacks.

    Perhaps with volunteers who would want to put substantial time in this, I could say 'eh, give it a go', but as it stands, I cannot support this initiative, because I believe it is destined to die early if it even manages to live at all. Call it pessimism; I call it my experience with member-managed tabulation and competition based on activity with tight-knit groups that easily take the overwhelming share of participation. And there is no easy way for TWC to really even out the balance without significant change to the proposal and the houses themselves.

    Yeah, I know, I'm a pooper. Get one more person to definitively say 'support' and it's still viable to try out, I certainly don't mind being proven wrong when it comes to assessments like these.
    pretty much this.. a similar project needs the work of a lot of people, so in lack of a group of them who will volunteer in advance, this is going no where

    always remember the PotF lads; very nice idea, but after it got approved it was dropped.. I came in and managed to involve some people (a few citizens and mishkin), and it took us 6 months just to make it a reality.. then if not for the hard work of Aexodus before and of Legio_Italica after (with the occasional back up of Love Mountain- Sukiyama and, my admin work) it would have ended in nothing.. and the PotF is far less complex and demanding work-wise, than this idea
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    pretty much this.. a similar project needs the work of a lot of people, so in lack of a group of them who will volunteer in advance, this is going no where

    always remember the PotF lads; very nice idea, but after it got approved it was dropped.. I came in and managed to involve some people (a few citizens and mishkin), and it took us 6 months just to make it a reality.. then if not for the hard work of Aexodus before and of Legio_Italica after (with the occasional back up of Love Mountain- Sukiyama and, my admin work) it would have ended in nothing.. and the PotF is far less complex and demanding work-wise, than this idea
    Pretty much the nail in the coffin, when making that comparison.

    It's not even it being hard. Just a matter of people being willing to keep up and go through every little potential thing, even if several of the more problematic trackers were removed. The proposition that brings engagement up should not depend on a level of energy that doesn't currently exist in order to make that happen.

  13. #13

    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    I like Harry Potter, I like competition, I like ideas that make the Curia and TWC relevant again, and I like internet awards and accolades to a fault. There's nothing not to like here, why not support?

  14. #14
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    And you like Harry Potter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    People want to be pandered to. That's really what identity politics is about.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    And you like Harry Potter
    I'm an American millenial, liking Harry Potter is as essential as living in my mom's basement and eating chicken tendies three times per week, let's get real.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    If you don't like Harry Potter I will fight you.

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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    I support on principle, but as things are now, citizenship is of little importance. We need to reignite the vigor of patronizing.
    People put into the signature belongings in a particular house but it is generally done with little or no understanding of what it is or its history.

    If you look at the list of the houses, some groups or fragmented, while one is glued" from various members. They tell a story, a story that is hard to discovered unless one is committed to learning it. I learned this stories because I was more interested in the genealogy of patronage. Whatever course of action taken here, a new story will need to be written, new houses (families) form morphing into a new understanding of belonging.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Apologies, I've been kept a little busy these past few weeks - being stranded on a tropical island has its drawbacks as well as its perks! Thank you everyone for your comments, both negative and positive. The overarching concern seems to be that it creates a level of bureaucracy that will be simply too much work. Not sure if I'm an optimist or just naive, but I'm not sure tallying points would be that difficult, with a requisite system in place to efficiently spread the workload; I've seen other forums run sustained site-wide competitions like this with a skeleton staff, so I think it's doable. Having the Curia or some Curial body plan and run specific events I would imagine would take more effort, but we're always saying how the Curia should do more for the site; I'm not sure there's an easy, low-effort way for us to do that - at some point we will have to pull our socks up and do some work, if that's truly what we want. The benefit of this proposal, in my eyes at least, is at least that work can be fun and entertaining for us.

    Although this proposal was designed to be low-tech, is there anything we could do with the forum software to help automate any parts of this proposal? It's been a while since I've used an admincp, but there should be some cool gadgets out there for this kind of stuff. As the bureaucracy in particular is a key sticking point, it would be interesting to discuss what options there are built into vBulletin that could help mitigate it.

    Otherwise, for those opposed, I am also of course open to hearing ideas on how some of the core concepts and ideas I've proposed here could be made workable from your perspectives, in terms of giving the Curia an alternate purpose and sense of direction. My proposal isn't one set in stone, and it isn't the only way a House or Curial competition system could work - even if that means creating entirely new Houses, as has been alluded to. The thread is labelled 'Discussion' for a reason I merely tried to demonstrate a system that would be workable in theory, even if there might be stumbling blocks in practice. It seems, so far at least, no one is actually opposed in principle? That the idea of doing something with Houses and Curial events/competitions is at the very least something people would be willing to play around with? If that's the case, I think that's wonderful, and that's a good platform to build on, and honestly a better result that I was initially anticipating. If the specifics I have proposed are impractical, then let's discuss what could be practical.
    Last edited by Hitai de Bodemloze; May 14, 2020 at 01:50 PM.

  19. #19
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    Although this proposal was designed to be low-tech, is there anything we could do with the forum software to help automate any parts of this proposal? It's been a while since I've used an admincp, but there should be some cool gadgets out there for this kind of stuff. As the bureaucracy in particular is a key sticking point, it would be interesting to discuss what options there are built into vBulletin that could help mitigate it.
    Sorry to pour cold water, but software changes require active back-end site admins, which we don't have at the moment.

    As for other ideas, I've not got any currently.
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  20. #20
    Imperator Majora's Avatar Wub.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] House Cup 2.0

    The question is not for software changes or significant backend adjustments, rather looking at features built into VB that can be achieved by any hex with the blessing and means to wander about their admin-level kits. Either through a logistical hack that uses something existing to track or whatever, or some other obscure feature that hasn't been used much or yet.


    That said, having poked through the manual, I'm not aware of any that would be relevant to the proposal. Didn't look deeply, so it's still possible of course.

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