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Thread: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Part 1 - No More Decisions
    Background ("the fat: chew at own risk")

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Preamble of the Constitution states that "the Curia serves as an advisory group to, and an awards committee for, the site."

    Arguably, the Curia fulfils the second part of that. However, while the Curia claims to be an advisory group, the reality is that the Curia holds no extra influence in the suggestions it occasionally brings forward. This has been affirmed many a time by various members of Hex. Indeed, Hex has always been free to veto Decisions.

    "Decisions", as defined in Section II, Article III as "suggest[ed] changes to the site", are oftentimes reasonable ideas which are discussed and debated, perhaps beginning life unofficially in the CVRIA main forum, before moving on to the Prothalamos as official proposals, where members may declare support or opposition. If three Citizens declare their support, the Decision may then move to vote. If in the subsequent poll it achieves a two-thirds (66.66% recurring) majority of "Yes" votes, it passes. Depending on the contents of the Decision, it would then, most likely, be submitted to Hex for their consideration.

    As most would know, the Prothalamos (Proth) was relocated from inside the CVRIA main forum, which is for Citizen-only posting, to become its own index-level forum, and it was opened for posting by non-Citizens (a.k.a. Peregrinus). In addition to hosting Decisions, the Proth is also the place where awards proposals (a.k.a. "Nominations" in the Constitution), Votes of No Confidence (VoNCs) of Curial Officers or Staff Members, and Amendments to the Constitution, take place.

    Given that the Proth is now open to posting by all members of the site, non-Citizens, currently, may state their own support of or opposition to any of the above types of discussion. The caveat is that, effectively, their support does not count to the three-member prerequisite required for a proposal to move to vote, and they also are not allowed to vote (as the voting takes place in the Curia Vote sub-forum of the CVRIA).

    While one may argue that Decisions brought forward by the Curia have, theoretically, at least, received a great deal of formal discussion, debate and consideration before passing, this system is also flawed. As mentioned, even if a Decision passes, there is still every possibility that Hex may choose to veto it, as is fair enough. Additionally, and perhaps not always considered, is that the high scrutiny and placed upon Decisions during the discussion phase can, and often does, lead to ideas dying in their infancy, being abandoned by, I'd argue, frustrated proposers who may have been shut down before their own ideas were allowed to develop and manifest in their own head, let alone in anyone else's.

    What sticks out to some is the glaring fact that, two spots on the index above the Proth, and immediately above the CVRIA, lies a forum called Questions & Suggestions. Its description states "This is [...] the place for your suggestions and comments to help us improve TWC."

    Perhaps in contrast to the Proth, with its not-so-inviting name to the uninitiated ("Prothalamos", what a mouthful!), Questions & Suggestions' (Q&S) name and purpose are quite plain and obvious. One could argue that having a hard to understand name is no reason to do away with it, and sure, it isn't; the reason to do away with it, or at least, to do away with Decisions, is that we have two places for the same purpose, and one is a lot more obvious than the other.

    Decisions are no longer necessary for either the Curia, or for Total War Center (TWC). While they are guaranteed to be much-debated, this is not necessarily reflective of their higher quality than "regular" suggestions; indeed, they could well be just plain dumb or impossible ideas. Decisions carry no more weight than regular suggestions, either. We'd be delusional to believe otherwise. Hex is just as likely to implement or ignore Decisions as they are to implement or ignore any suggestion made by Joe Peregrinus in Q&S. Ultimately, Decisions serve no obvious positive purpose, and if they aren't even implemented, they are just big wastes of time.
    Suggestion ("the trimming of the fat")

    This proposal suggests that, going forward, all suggestions for the site, including suggestions for the Curia, can go through Q&S.
    Part 2 - No more Constitution (or Curial Officers, except Magistrates)
    Background ("the bloat: consume at own risk")

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Constitution, in its own Preamble, states that it contains "the principles of the Curia and of Citizenship". Section I, Article I, further, reads "Citizenship is the fundamental award given by the Curia for contributions to the site and community of TWC". Going briefly back to the Preamble, the Curia is defined as, in addition to the "advisory group" mentioned in Part 1 of this proposal, "an awards committee for the site."

    So, the Curia is, in practice (particularly if this Decision passes) no longer an advisory group, no matter how much it wants to be. Therefore, the Curia is an awards committee, period, by its own definition. The Constitution contains the principles of Citizenship, which itself is defined as an award.

    What, in practice, does Citizenship entail? Section I, Article I again states "Citizenship allows members to post in the Capitol* and propose other members for Citizenship. [...] Citizenship can only be revoked by the Curia or the Administration."

    *The Capitol, as a section of TWC, no longer exists. It used to house the CVRIA, and its various index-level siblings, over the years, before it became an only-child and was moved to the section called Site Administration. Therefore, in practice, "The Capitol" can be considered to refer to the CVRIA, and to the Prothalamos, which used to be a CVRIA sub-forum.

    It goes on, "Citizens elect and can run for Curial Officer positions: Consul, Censors, Praefects, and Magistrates."

    This Decision assumes that you, the reader, know the definition of each Curial Officer position, and what they do. It is a fact that, beyond the CVRIA and Proth, only the Magistrate has relevance to the wider-site, as part of the Tribunal. This Decision intends that, after the removal (or significant reduction in the scope of) the Constitution, Magistrates will continue to be elected from the Citizenry, by votes which take place in the CVRIA or an appropriate sub-forum.

    As for the other Curial Officers, let's start with Praefects. Section III, Article I, states that "Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner". This "rule" of Citizenship is often referred to as the "higher standards". The Constitution does not, at any point, attempted to define what constitutes exemplary behavior, though it provides an extensive system by which Citizens may be prosecuted for perceived violations of such standards.

    On the contrary, Section I, Article II, Footnote 7 actually claims that "Due to the nature of the Curia, Praefects recognize that off topic and personal references are allowed, within reason." This appears to suggest that elements of the Terms of Service (ToS) are actually somewhat more lax than elsewhere. Furthermore, the ToS itself states "Outside of the Administrative Forums, personal references, whether implicit or explicit, are off-topic." One assumes that this rule must apply to both the CVRIA and the Proth, because, as mentioned earlier, they are located within the Site Administration section.

    Confused? It gets better (worse). Section II, Article I, states "Violations of Forum Rules and of the Terms of Service in [the Curia Forum, including the Proth] are considered to be doubly serious." So, taking into account the fact that some "reasonable" off-topic personal references are permissible as per both the Constitution and the ToS, all other rules apply to Citizens at undefined higher standards than they do to other members.

    Praefects must navigate this unmarked maze, which I suggest is symptomatic of years of confusion and conjecture on the subject of "higher standards". As per Section I, Article II, Footnote 10, Praefects do require some experience with either Site Moderation or the Tribunal, which is logical, but does not equate to additional training or instruction of what, exactly, are the higher standards by which they are to hold their peers.

    The Citizen's Handbook provides "Behavioural Guidelines" for Citizens, but these are not binding. While they are good rules to live by, receipt of the award of Citizenship, nor the removal of said award, are not dependent upon these guidelines.

    By simply receiving the award (again, as it is defined by the Constitution) of Citizenship, Citizens are subject to unclear additional rules (or levels of rules), whilst being exempt from some other rules. Their behaviour is policed by other Citizens who have nothing more than their own opinions and experience by which to interpret these undefined higher standards.

    Next: Consuls, and their assistants, Censors. Excluding their role in the above-discussed policing of Citizens and the Curia, these members are responsible for (respectfully, as someone who held the role(s) for nearly a year) the janitorial management of the Curia: organising elections, and managing proposals (creating polls, updating archives, etc.).

    Whether or not Consuls need to exist is debatable. Indeed, certainly someone needs to perform the day-to-day tasks, however the election of a Citizen to this role seems superfluous, considering the other changes proposed in this Decision. Indeed, if Consuls (and, by extension, Censors), as well as Praefects as per the above arguments, no longer existed, the only elections which would ever need to be organised going forward are those of Magistrates. This equates to no more than six elections per year.

    Is it not reasonable to assume that the duty of organising elections could be adopted by Hex? In addition, the updating of archives can easily be managed by Hex and/or Moderation as part of their own day-to-day activities.

    With all these changes, Votes of No Confidence are rendered redundant. Like Decisions, issues with any member(s) of TWC Staff can be raised with equal consideration in Q&S, or privately via Private Messages (PMs) or the Report button, as has always been the case and is arguably more appropriate, and the same is true for Magistrates.
    Suggestion ("the draining of the bloat")

    This proposal suggests that, because Citizenship is an award, and because the higher standards are undefined (perhaps, undefinable) and somewhat dubious, that this system of policing Citizen behaviour be totally abolished. Moderation of the Curia reverts to the default: Site Moderation. Citizens and non-Citizens alike are governed by and held to the ToS. No more ambiguous self-policing.

    Want to "refer" a fellow Citizen? Use the Report button. Site Moderation is perfectly willing to punish, and capable of punishing, troublemakers and rule-breakers.

    Without referrals, higher standards, Praefects, Decisions, Votes of No Confidence, Amendments, and a Constitution, the duties of the Consul are greatly reduced, to organising elections (of Magistrates and, if they were to still exist, Consuls themselves), as well as updating archives of awards and elections, and creating polls for Citizenship applications and awards proposals.

    Therefore, remove Consuls as well, and transfer responsibility for these duties to Hex, who may delegate some of them to Site Moderation at their discretion. Quite frankly, it isn't much work (a handful of polls, thread moves, and various edits, a few times a month, at most) and I doubt it is enough to justify the continued existence of Consuls, particularly considering that their existence and appointment is a task in itself (for Consuls creating elections to replace themselves, and Hexes adding and removing members from the group(s) in the back-end).
    Part 3 - The CVRIA and the ProthalamosThis part of the proposal simply ties up loose ends, regarding the implementation of this Decision proposal and how the Curia and its associated forums (fora) would function in practice.

    1. The Curia is no longer an advisory group in practice, therefore; discussions in the CVRIA main can be restricted to proposals for awards, Citizenship applications, and elections. Open posting in the CVRIA to non-Citizens, and remove the Prothalamos, which is now redundant.

    2. The SYMPOSIVM (Symp) remains, and becomes the only remaining Citizen-only section on the site (along with Curia Vote). Threads from the CVRIA main may be archived where they are (locked), archived elsewhere, or moved to the Symp. The Constitution may either remain, or be archived and replaced by a much shorter document which outlines the purpose of the Curia: Citizenship applications, awards proposals and Magistrate elections, and the relevant details (eligibility, etc.) thereof. Hex may "amend" the document at their discretion.

    3. Curia Vote remains the place for the creation of poles, by Hex or by the Consul, if the latter still exists. It adopts this Archives sub-forum, renamed "Prothalamos Archive", and retains The Tabularium, for the archiving of proposals, and polls, respectively, as is already the function of those sub-forums. Only Citizens may vote.

    4. Quaestiones Perpetuae is removed; Citizenship applications may now be posted straight into the CVRIA main (where they get more attention, and where non-Citizens may post^). The Citizen Antechamber, which archives Citizenship proposals, now becomes a top-level sub-forum.
    CounterpointsWill be added and updated as the discussion of this proposal progresses.
    ^
    This proposal makes no suggestion on whether or not non-Citizens be allowed to apply for Citizenship without a patron, as was mentioned here. Personally, the more I think about it, the more excited I am by the idea, but I think that can use a separate "Decision" or suggestion, before or after this one passes or fails.
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  2. #2
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    This seems to be a revolutionary step, but it represents the real situation on this site. I must think about it, as atm i'm undecided.
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Can't see the difference with Caligula's proposal except that this one is more detailled. Do I miss something?
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    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Can't see the difference with Caligula's proposal except that this one is more detailed. Do I miss something?
    As I understood it, Caligula proposes to dissolve the Curia entirely, where this proposal wants to shave it down to becoming an award committee and being the place where Magistrates are chosen.

    I have been advocating this for quite some time now, most recently in the posts below. However, I never have put this in a proposal where Frunk clearly did deliver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Not at all certain about many Citizens not being able to settle for the Curia being an award committee and not much else. The reality for years now has been that a tiny part of the existing Citizens regularly contributed to the Curia. I strongly suspect that even in the heydays of the Curia, more Citizens stayed away from the Curia than participating there.

    What I do believe is that the possibility of becoming a Citizen on this forum, is something most members greatly appreciate. It would be unwise to remove that, as in my view, it adds a certain flair to this site which it really needs. We can say an award is simply a bunch of pixels only visible on a screen, but I am as sure as I can be without actually asking every existing Citizen, that the great majority of Citizens went for it because of the recognition of their work and the fancy Badge that goes with it. I'm not ashamed to say here that that goes for me too, even when I have done my fair share of work in and for the Curia. Well, I like to believe I did at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    In fact, I also have stated before a few times that IMO the Curia would be best served by going on as an award committee and being the place where we can elect Magistrates and appoint some staff to run the show.
    And as I got confirmation that I must be on to something worthwhile in the reply to my post:

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Citizenship exist to give awards. Then maybe do not give awards. This is dumb concept which is why it was never envisioned to be so.
    SUPPORT
    Last edited by Veteraan; April 18, 2020 at 04:46 PM.

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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Suggest replacing the Consuls with a Curator. With as much as you've removed it would be, nice, to return something that maintains a link to history. The Curator should have a remit, you'd need to set some mechanism for making changes to the Curators remit, in keeping with what you're proposing I'd set the Curators remit so it can only be changed every six months. I'd also add a 'Votes of No Confidence' clause for the Curator, in case one goes awol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk
    The Constitution may either remain, or be archived and replaced by a much shorter document which outlines the purpose of the Curia: Citizenship applications, awards proposals and Magistrate elections, and the relevant details (eligibility, etc.) thereof.
    Suggest replacing with a Syntagma (TWC historic). Would also suggest a clause that it also can only be changed by vote in the curia in six monthly intervals, perhaps put the Curators remit in there to keep things tidy.

    Suggest keep voting (elections/awards) to the Citizen group only.

    Suggest adding a clause that any former citizen wishing to resume the award may do so by informing the Curator. That could be added within the Syntagma.

    Self proposal is a recipe for popularity votes. A Patron goes some way to negate that. Though I'd do away with the applicants paragraph in lieu of a proper formatted proposal. Achievements/supporting statements.

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    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    I agree with point 2 in ints entirety but I fundamentally oppose everything written in section 3.


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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Strongly opposed.

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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Aren't Magistrate a Curial office position?

    If so then this proposal is contradiction of what is proposed. Opposed.

    And this proposal clearly needs to be rewritten, just to avoid confusing.
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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Can't see the difference with Caligula's proposal except that this one is more detailled. Do I miss something?
    Really? The difference(s) are quite marked, frankly. Caligula, as Veteraan pointed out, simply said "dissolve the Curia" and not much else. This proposal does nothing of the sort.

    This proposal is about removing redundant features and systems of the Curia and streamlining what remains: awards proposals, Citizenship applications, and magistrate elections.

    So, yes, you missed basically everything. Be sure to read the walls-of-text in the spoilers for greater explanation of my logic behind the un-spoilered suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    snip
    Thanks for the suggestions Halie. I am currently helping my dad oil the back deck, but after I'm done I'll come back and respond properly. I love the idea of naming the new, shorter document the Syntagma, and I already have some ideas for a draft, which I can put to paper today.

    I still require some convincing that the Curator/Consul is still required in the modern Curia. Will elaborate later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I agree with point 2 in ints entirety but I fundamentally oppose everything written in section 3.
    Part 3? Can you be more specific at all? That is simply the physical changes that take place to reflect the new status quo if Parts 1 and 2 are ratified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Strongly opposed.
    Again, would appreciate some elaboration here, given the hours I put into putting this together, based on a discussion (in Caligula's "proposal") which received no clear opposition in principle at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Aren't Magistrate a Curial office position?

    If so then this proposal is contradiction of what is proposed. Opposed.

    And this proposal clearly needs to be rewritten, just to avoid confusing.
    I hardly see what is confusing or contradictory. The title of Part 2 quite clearly states that Magistrates will still exist. Magistrates are, by definition, Curial Officers, but they perform no duties within the Curia like the other roles; they are merely elected by the Curia.

    This proposal is not about doing away with Curial Officers for the mere sake of it; it is about doing away with roles which are not needed.
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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    I hardly see what is confusing or contradictory. The title of Part 2 quite clearly states that Magistrates will still exist. Magistrates are, by definition, Curial Officers, but they perform no duties within the Curia like the other roles; they are merely elected by the Curia.

    This proposal is not about doing away with Curial Officers for the mere sake of it; it is about doing away with roles which are not needed.
    If I understood you correctly. You said in the OP, no more Curial officers, but who is gonna to held the election for the Magistrate. A Moderation Overseer or is it someone else, GED or the Tribunes?

    That's what confuses me.
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    If the Consul is removed, the election for Curator would organised by Hex and/or by members delegated that responsibility. Citizens may nominate themselves, and then Citizens vote on the candidates, both as are already the case. See the title of Part 2. No more Constitution or Curial Officers EXCEPT Magistrates. I can't make that any clearer.

    The Constitution would be replaced by a shorter document which would not require Amendments - any changes could simply suggested, informally to and/or applied by Hex at their discretion. Hex also oversees the creation of election threads, voting polls, archiving of completed threads, and updating of annals - all minor administrative tasks currently the responsibility of the Consul.
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    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    Really? The difference(s) are quite marked, frankly. Caligula, as Veteraan pointed out, simply said "dissolve the Curia" and not much else. This proposal does nothing of the sort.

    This proposal is about removing redundant features and systems of the Curia and streamlining what remains: awards proposals, Citizenship applications, and magistrate elections.

    So, yes, you missed basically everything. Be sure to read the walls-of-text in the spoilers for greater explanation of my logic behind the un-spoilered suggestions.
    You're leaving so little that it's only crumbs. At that level, just go directly to Caligula's proposal instead of leaving an empty or almost empty body.
    Part 1: if it pleases you. In practice that's already the case.
    Part 2: It just goes a bit further that this proposal which already received a strong opposition at that time. Anyway, this is just a dismantling of the Curia and what's the point to keep a Consul/Curator while the Magistrate election could be directly be handled by Hex at that stage.
    Part 3: If this passes and is implemented, citizenry would mean absolutly nothing anymore. Just make a medal, that would be good enough.
    As said, what remains would be only crumbs.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 19, 2020 at 12:42 AM.
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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    If the Consul is removed, the election for Curator would organised by Hex and/or by members delegated that responsibility. Citizens may nominate themselves, and then Citizens vote on the candidates, both as are already the case. See the title of Part 2. No more Constitution or Curial Officers EXCEPT Magistrates. I can't make that any clearer.

    The Constitution would be replaced by a shorter document which would not require Amendments - any changes could simply suggested, informally to and/or applied by Hex at their discretion. Hex also oversees the creation of election threads, voting polls, archiving of completed threads, and updating of annals - all minor administrative tasks currently the responsibility of the Consul.
    Lifth has a valid point. If this proposal pass there is nothing left, especially what makes TWC unique and to my knowledge TWC are the ONLY site I am aware of that has citizenship along with a forum court.

    Which works in harmony at the moment. Of course things could be a lot different and better in the Curia, but it's good as it is and that is up to us citizen to make Curia better isn't it. One thing all citizens could agree on is to separate curia related issues into the Curial Changes forum (currently read-only) e.g amendent(s) to the constitution, other curial related proposals etc with the other proposals that is meant for every members in the Prothalamos.
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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    @Lifth: You acknowledge that the, arguably, more important part of this proposal, Part 1, is essentially just confirming the status quo (the way things already are, for those who don't know Latin). You are also saying that this leaves just a shell of Citizenship, but the other thing being removed via this decision is simply the self-policing of the Curia. Is that really what makes the Curia "mean something" to you? That's a pretty sad indictment on Citizenship as a concept, honestly.

    On the contrary, I think the leftover system of awards and Citizenship applications, along with Magistrate nominations and elections, is not an empty body at all - if you think that way, that says more about your opinion of the Curia than mine. Those two/three purposes are the real identity of the Curia, and indeed things that it should be more proud of, and place far more importance in, than self-policing and referrals based on undefined higher standards.

    @Leonardo: Again, if you think removing all except awards proposals, Citizenship applications, and Magistrate elections "leaves nothing behind", that says a lot more about your opinion of the Curia, than mine.

    As for any revival of the Curial Changes sub-forum as a place for "changes" to the Curia, including Amendments to the Constitution, while designating the Proth as the place to Decisions and Awards, makes no sense to me for several reasons.

    First, that would still mean that both the Proth and Q&S overlap in scope and purpose, and the Proth and the members that post in it would still have the option to pass Decisions which Hex can and do ignore like any other suggestion.

    Second, for years and YEARS the Curia has tried to "reinvent" itself, and shot down proposals such as this one. Indeed, I was on the other side many times in those past discussions. Yet, years later, the Curia remains the same; a simple awards body which also provides Magistrates for the Tribunal.

    If you disagree, go ahead and define what else the Constitution and the Curial Officers still need to exist for. If you feel that Praefects and referrals are needed to police Citizens, go ahead and define the higher standards and ratify them into the Constitution, and watch petty, frivolous referrals increase, frustration and confusion with the system mount, and members including themselves turning in their badges with no interest in participating further.

    Meanwhile, as for Decisions, there is nothing stopping Citizens and non-Citizens alike continuing to come up with suggestions for both the site and the Curia after the passing of this Decision; discussions would simply take place in Q&S and not require the formal support and voting system, which, as mentioned ad nauseum, serves no additional purpose. Citizens can even still attempt to try and form various sub-committees or undertake other initiatives without the need for a Decision to create them; I can surely say that Hex would not object to such discussions, even if they end up not supporting them (as they do with Decisions, currently).
    Last edited by Frunk; April 19, 2020 at 02:32 AM.
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

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  16. #16
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    The Curia has failed because only focusing on its own navel instead of on the site.
    What's the point to keep the citizenship principle if there's nothing behind? You're just reducing it as a simple award, nothing else. So, go further and change it as a simple medal then. That will also do imo.
    With this, Magitrate election can be directly done by Hex, no need to have one guy elected for that. In the worst case, Hex can just appoint a guy for such task.
    For referrals, I fully agree with you. I was just pointing the fact that a lot of people don't share that view. If you look through the thread I've linked, you'll notice that I was fully supporting Aik's proposal.
    Awards can be given by a committee or something.

    So what's left? Let's be honest: nothing.
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  17. #17
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    @Leonardo: Again, if you think removing all except awards proposals, Citizenship applications, and Magistrate elections "leaves nothing behind", that says a lot more about your opinion of the Curia, than mine.

    As for any revival of the Curial Changes sub-forum as a place for "changes" to the Curia, including Amendments to the Constitution, while designating the Proth as the place to Decisions and Awards, makes no sense to me for several reasons.

    First, that would still mean that both the Proth and Q&S overlap in scope and purpose, and the Proth and the members that post in it would still have the option to pass Decisions which Hex can and do ignore like any other suggestion.

    Second, for years and YEARS the Curia has tried to "reinvent" itself, and shot down proposals such as this one. Indeed, I was on the other side many times in those past discussions. Yet, years later, the Curia remains the same; a simple awards body which also provides Magistrates for the Tribunal.

    If you disagree, go ahead and define what else the Constitution and the Curial Officers still need to exist for. If you feel that Praefects and referrals are needed to police Citizens, go ahead and define the higher standards and ratify them into the Constitution, and watch petty, frivolous referrals increase, frustration and confusion with the system mount, and members including themselves turning in their badges with no interest in participating further.

    Meanwhile, as for Decisions, there is nothing stopping Citizens and non-Citizens alike continuing to come up with suggestions for both the site and the Curia after the passing of this Decision; discussions would simply take place in Q&S and not require the formal support and voting system, which, as mentioned ad nauseum, serves no additional purpose. Citizens can even still attempt to try and form various sub-committees or undertake other initiatives without the need for a Decision to create them; I can surely say that Hex would not object to such discussions, even if they end up not supporting them (as they do with Decisions, currently).
    Wait a minute, I think you misunderstood me as I said separate curial related issues, well matters sounds better, to Curial Changes forum and let everything else that is meant for all members stay where is it today. So, awards and decisions that is for the Curia will be separated inside the Curia and not mixed up with non-citizen, citizen proposals that could be beneficial for TWC. That is what I mean by saying separate curial proposals from other TWC proposals. Should a non-citizen be nominated, the Novus nomination for mak is a good example of what I mean, the member in question can either accept the award at the same time decline citizenship or accept both the award and citizenship. Now, if I understood it correctly, when a modder is nominated for Opifex citizens are voting inside the Curia Vote forum right. While other members can comment that in the CCT thread in the Q & S forum and that hasn't changed.

    IIRC, b0gia and Dresden are modders who almost got the Opifex award before they become a citizen.



    Also, have you checked what effect this proposal has, I mean your "No More Decisions, No More Constitution" proposal will affect other areas e.g Tribunal (scroll down at the bottom).
    Last edited by Leonardo; April 19, 2020 at 03:14 AM.
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  18. #18
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    @Lifth: Hex appoints two Tribunes who serve open-ended terms. Magistrates, in comparison, serve fixed terms which allows for rotation of new Citizens in and out of the role periodically, which is good for preventing burnout and stagnation. Electing Magistrates from the Curia adds some level of community control to the Tribunal system, as well. That, in itself, is very important, and enough justification of Citizenship being considered as more than just a regular award. Citizens must have a clean (enough) moderation record to be eligible for this award (in some distinction from other awards) and therefore potential Magistrates must also have the same.

    Indeed, awards can be given by a committee; the Curia can be that committee, and it benefits from the fact that it is open and transparent, and does not have the same requirements for regular activity like other committees. As has always been the case, Citizens (and, now, since Order 66, non-Citizens as well) may come and go as they please, and participate when they are willing and able.

    Keeping the Curia as a functioning awards-giving body has, as is proven by the status quo, kept members "around" to nominate for election for Magistrate when the time comes. Without the Curia, it might not be as easy to find potential Magistrates.

    Personally, I think you're looking at it too pessimistically. This proposal does nothing but remove unnecessary elements, and confirm facts about others. It keeps the important aspects of Citizenship and the Curia completely intact.

    EDIT:

    @Leonardo: Firstly, stop ninja'ing me.

    I understand your post. You are effectively suggesting that Citizenship applications and awards proposals take place inside the CVRIA, and that the Proth remain for "proposals that could be beneficial for TWC". If awards proposals are removed from the Proth, but the Proth remains, the only purpose of the Proth is for posting Decisions (proposals that could be beneficial for TWC), which I am suggesting be abolished, because such proposals and suggestions can and should be posted in Questions & Suggestions, simply to have everything in one place and do away with the outdated Decision model, which is discussed at length in my OP.

    As for Citizenship applications and awards proposals taking place somewhere in the CVRIA, well yes, that is suggested by this proposal in Part 3.

    EDIT #2: Yes, the Tribunal is mentioned in the Constitution for context, but the Constitution plays no role in any aspect of the site outside of the Curia. Removing it and replacing it with a shorter document which is under the authority of Hex would not affect any other part of the site. Decisions, and Consuls, Censors and Praefects also have no remit beyond the Curia, and their removal would not affect any other part of the site, either.
    Last edited by Frunk; April 19, 2020 at 03:29 AM.
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  19. #19
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    Fair enough, let me ask you a question. If your proposal has minor differences to my suggestion then why are two threads still in the Curia when both of them should be moved outside the Curia?

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...0-years-at-TWC
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ds-Suggestions

    The way I see it is that non-citizens should be able to suggest a member, usually a modder, for citizenship in the Citizenship and Other Awards Suggestions thread and not as it is today in the CCT thread. Which can easily and quickly be buried with other Curia comments.
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  20. #20
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] No More Decisions, No More Constitution

    I agree with you. My proposals suggests opening the CVRIA main to posting by non-Citizens (effectively merging the current function of the Proth with the CVRIA), and that all proposals be posted in the CVRIA where non-Citizens and Citizens may discuss them. The 10 year thread could, perhaps, be moved from the Symp to the CVRIA, and the awards suggestion thread would also become accessible to non-Citizens as well, who you correctly point out currently can't make direct use of that thread despite the fact that the Curia granted non-Citizens the ability to participate in awards proposals as part of Order 66.

    If my proposal were to pass, that would become a decision for Hex and/or their delegates.

    I know there are still Citizens who baulk at the prospect of non-Citizens posting in the CVRIA. Frankly, with Order 66 passing, that was effectively done anyway, as the Proth was opened to non-Citizens and it is (currently) where one of the three things the Curia does which are actually relevant (awards proposals) take place, so that thinking ("exclude non-Citizens") is outdated and pointless. Discussions currently in the CVRIA main arguably overlap with both the Symp, and with Q&S, hence why I suggest they no longer be posted in the CVRIA, and the CVRIA main be used for Citizenship applications, awards proposals and Magistrate elections. Voting threads would still take place in Curia Vote, where only Citizens may vote and post.
    Last edited by Frunk; April 19, 2020 at 03:48 AM.
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