^
This seems to be a revolutionary step, but it represents the real situation on this site. I must think about it, as atm i'm undecided.
Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
And tomorrow you'll be on your way
Don't give a damn about what other people say
Because tomorrow is a brand-new day
Can't see the difference with Caligula's proposal except that this one is more detailled. Do I miss something?
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As I understood it, Caligula proposes to dissolve the Curia entirely, where this proposal wants to shave it down to becoming an award committee and being the place where Magistrates are chosen.
I have been advocating this for quite some time now, most recently in the posts below. However, I never have put this in a proposal where Frunk clearly did deliver.
And as I got confirmation that I must be on to something worthwhile in the reply to my post:
SUPPORT
Suggest replacing the Consuls with a Curator. With as much as you've removed it would be, nice, to return something that maintains a link to history. The Curator should have a remit, you'd need to set some mechanism for making changes to the Curators remit, in keeping with what you're proposing I'd set the Curators remit so it can only be changed every six months. I'd also add a 'Votes of No Confidence' clause for the Curator, in case one goes awol.
Suggest replacing with a Syntagma (TWC historic). Would also suggest a clause that it also can only be changed by vote in the curia in six monthly intervals, perhaps put the Curators remit in there to keep things tidy.Originally Posted by Frunk
Suggest keep voting (elections/awards) to the Citizen group only.
Suggest adding a clause that any former citizen wishing to resume the award may do so by informing the Curator. That could be added within the Syntagma.
Self proposal is a recipe for popularity votes. A Patron goes some way to negate that. Though I'd do away with the applicants paragraph in lieu of a proper formatted proposal. Achievements/supporting statements.
I agree with point 2 in ints entirety but I fundamentally oppose everything written in section 3.
Opposed
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Strongly opposed.
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Aren't Magistrate a Curial office position?
If so then this proposal is contradiction of what is proposed. Opposed.
And this proposal clearly needs to be rewritten, just to avoid confusing.
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Really? The difference(s) are quite marked, frankly. Caligula, as Veteraan pointed out, simply said "dissolve the Curia" and not much else. This proposal does nothing of the sort.
This proposal is about removing redundant features and systems of the Curia and streamlining what remains: awards proposals, Citizenship applications, and magistrate elections.
So, yes, you missed basically everything. Be sure to read the walls-of-text in the spoilers for greater explanation of my logic behind the un-spoilered suggestions.
Thanks for the suggestions Halie. I am currently helping my dad oil the back deck, but after I'm done I'll come back and respond properly. I love the idea of naming the new, shorter document the Syntagma, and I already have some ideas for a draft, which I can put to paper today.
I still require some convincing that the Curator/Consul is still required in the modern Curia. Will elaborate later.
Part 3? Can you be more specific at all? That is simply the physical changes that take place to reflect the new status quo if Parts 1 and 2 are ratified.
Again, would appreciate some elaboration here, given the hours I put into putting this together, based on a discussion (in Caligula's "proposal") which received no clear opposition in principle at the time.
I hardly see what is confusing or contradictory. The title of Part 2 quite clearly states that Magistrates will still exist. Magistrates are, by definition, Curial Officers, but they perform no duties within the Curia like the other roles; they are merely elected by the Curia.
This proposal is not about doing away with Curial Officers for the mere sake of it; it is about doing away with roles which are not needed.
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You're leaving so little that it's only crumbs. At that level, just go directly to Caligula's proposal instead of leaving an empty or almost empty body.
Part 1: if it pleases you. In practice that's already the case.
Part 2: It just goes a bit further that this proposal which already received a strong opposition at that time. Anyway, this is just a dismantling of the Curia and what's the point to keep a Consul/Curator while the Magistrate election could be directly be handled by Hex at that stage.
Part 3: If this passes and is implemented, citizenry would mean absolutly nothing anymore. Just make a medal, that would be good enough.
As said, what remains would be only crumbs.
Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 19, 2020 at 12:42 AM.
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If the Consul is removed, the election for Curator would organised by Hex and/or by members delegated that responsibility. Citizens may nominate themselves, and then Citizens vote on the candidates, both as are already the case. See the title of Part 2. No more Constitution or Curial Officers EXCEPT Magistrates. I can't make that any clearer.
The Constitution would be replaced by a shorter document which would not require Amendments - any changes could simply suggested, informally to and/or applied by Hex at their discretion. Hex also oversees the creation of election threads, voting polls, archiving of completed threads, and updating of annals - all minor administrative tasks currently the responsibility of the Consul.
Lifth has a valid point. If this proposal pass there is nothing left, especially what makes TWC unique and to my knowledge TWC are the ONLY site I am aware of that has citizenship along with a forum court.
Which works in harmony at the moment. Of course things could be a lot different and better in the Curia, but it's good as it is and that is up to us citizen to make Curia better isn't it. One thing all citizens could agree on is to separate curia related issues into the Curial Changes forum (currently read-only) e.g amendent(s) to the constitution, other curial related proposals etc with the other proposals that is meant for every members in the Prothalamos.
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@Lifth: You acknowledge that the, arguably, more important part of this proposal, Part 1, is essentially just confirming the status quo (the way things already are, for those who don't know Latin). You are also saying that this leaves just a shell of Citizenship, but the other thing being removed via this decision is simply the self-policing of the Curia. Is that really what makes the Curia "mean something" to you? That's a pretty sad indictment on Citizenship as a concept, honestly.
On the contrary, I think the leftover system of awards and Citizenship applications, along with Magistrate nominations and elections, is not an empty body at all - if you think that way, that says more about your opinion of the Curia than mine. Those two/three purposes are the real identity of the Curia, and indeed things that it should be more proud of, and place far more importance in, than self-policing and referrals based on undefined higher standards.
@Leonardo: Again, if you think removing all except awards proposals, Citizenship applications, and Magistrate elections "leaves nothing behind", that says a lot more about your opinion of the Curia, than mine.
As for any revival of the Curial Changes sub-forum as a place for "changes" to the Curia, including Amendments to the Constitution, while designating the Proth as the place to Decisions and Awards, makes no sense to me for several reasons.
First, that would still mean that both the Proth and Q&S overlap in scope and purpose, and the Proth and the members that post in it would still have the option to pass Decisions which Hex can and do ignore like any other suggestion.
Second, for years and YEARS the Curia has tried to "reinvent" itself, and shot down proposals such as this one. Indeed, I was on the other side many times in those past discussions. Yet, years later, the Curia remains the same; a simple awards body which also provides Magistrates for the Tribunal.
If you disagree, go ahead and define what else the Constitution and the Curial Officers still need to exist for. If you feel that Praefects and referrals are needed to police Citizens, go ahead and define the higher standards and ratify them into the Constitution, and watch petty, frivolous referrals increase, frustration and confusion with the system mount, and members including themselves turning in their badges with no interest in participating further.
Meanwhile, as for Decisions, there is nothing stopping Citizens and non-Citizens alike continuing to come up with suggestions for both the site and the Curia after the passing of this Decision; discussions would simply take place in Q&S and not require the formal support and voting system, which, as mentioned ad nauseum, serves no additional purpose. Citizens can even still attempt to try and form various sub-committees or undertake other initiatives without the need for a Decision to create them; I can surely say that Hex would not object to such discussions, even if they end up not supporting them (as they do with Decisions, currently).
Wait a minute, I think you misunderstood me as I said separate curial related issues, well matters sounds better, to Curial Changes forum and let everything else that is meant for all members stay where is it today. So, awards and decisions that is for the Curia will be separated inside the Curia and not mixed up with non-citizen, citizen proposals that could be beneficial for TWC. That is what I mean by saying separate curial proposals from other TWC proposals. Should a non-citizen be nominated, the Novus nomination for mak is a good example of what I mean, the member in question can either accept the award at the same time decline citizenship or accept both the award and citizenship. Now, if I understood it correctly, when a modder is nominated for Opifex citizens are voting inside the Curia Vote forum right. While other members can comment that in the CCT thread in the Q & S forum and that hasn't changed.
IIRC, b0gia and Dresden are modders who almost got the Opifex award before they become a citizen.
Also, have you checked what effect this proposal has, I mean your "No More Decisions, No More Constitution" proposal will affect other areas e.g Tribunal (scroll down at the bottom).
Last edited by Leonardo; April 19, 2020 at 03:14 AM.
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The Curia has failed because only focusing on its own navel instead of on the site.
What's the point to keep the citizenship principle if there's nothing behind? You're just reducing it as a simple award, nothing else. So, go further and change it as a simple medal then. That will also do imo.
With this, Magitrate election can be directly done by Hex, no need to have one guy elected for that. In the worst case, Hex can just appoint a guy for such task.
For referrals, I fully agree with you. I was just pointing the fact that a lot of people don't share that view. If you look through the thread I've linked, you'll notice that I was fully supporting Aik's proposal.
Awards can be given by a committee or something.
So what's left? Let's be honest: nothing.
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@Lifth: Hex appoints two Tribunes who serve open-ended terms. Magistrates, in comparison, serve fixed terms which allows for rotation of new Citizens in and out of the role periodically, which is good for preventing burnout and stagnation. Electing Magistrates from the Curia adds some level of community control to the Tribunal system, as well. That, in itself, is very important, and enough justification of Citizenship being considered as more than just a regular award. Citizens must have a clean (enough) moderation record to be eligible for this award (in some distinction from other awards) and therefore potential Magistrates must also have the same.
Indeed, awards can be given by a committee; the Curia can be that committee, and it benefits from the fact that it is open and transparent, and does not have the same requirements for regular activity like other committees. As has always been the case, Citizens (and, now, since Order 66, non-Citizens as well) may come and go as they please, and participate when they are willing and able.
Keeping the Curia as a functioning awards-giving body has, as is proven by the status quo, kept members "around" to nominate for election for Magistrate when the time comes. Without the Curia, it might not be as easy to find potential Magistrates.
Personally, I think you're looking at it too pessimistically. This proposal does nothing but remove unnecessary elements, and confirm facts about others. It keeps the important aspects of Citizenship and the Curia completely intact.
EDIT:
@Leonardo: Firstly, stop ninja'ing me.
I understand your post. You are effectively suggesting that Citizenship applications and awards proposals take place inside the CVRIA, and that the Proth remain for "proposals that could be beneficial for TWC". If awards proposals are removed from the Proth, but the Proth remains, the only purpose of the Proth is for posting Decisions (proposals that could be beneficial for TWC), which I am suggesting be abolished, because such proposals and suggestions can and should be posted in Questions & Suggestions, simply to have everything in one place and do away with the outdated Decision model, which is discussed at length in my OP.
As for Citizenship applications and awards proposals taking place somewhere in the CVRIA, well yes, that is suggested by this proposal in Part 3.
EDIT #2: Yes, the Tribunal is mentioned in the Constitution for context, but the Constitution plays no role in any aspect of the site outside of the Curia. Removing it and replacing it with a shorter document which is under the authority of Hex would not affect any other part of the site. Decisions, and Consuls, Censors and Praefects also have no remit beyond the Curia, and their removal would not affect any other part of the site, either.
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Fair enough, let me ask you a question. If your proposal has minor differences to my suggestion then why are two threads still in the Curia when both of them should be moved outside the Curia?
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...0-years-at-TWC
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ds-Suggestions
The way I see it is that non-citizens should be able to suggest a member, usually a modder, for citizenship in the Citizenship and Other Awards Suggestions thread and not as it is today in the CCT thread. Which can easily and quickly be buried with other Curia comments.
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