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Thread: Military Orders (Latin)

  1. #21
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    It was not me who programmed those mercenaries so I don't know what was the reason to put it like this. I'd gather opinions from the other players before doing anything.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    It was not me who programmed those mercenaries so I don't know what was the reason to put it like this. I'd gather opinions from the other players before doing anything.
    Maybe something related to the Reconquista? Why only the Pyrenees though?

  3. #23
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    It was not me who programmed those mercenaries so I don't know what was the reason to put it like this. I'd gather opinions from the other players before doing anything.
    I remember there was a minimod on 0.9.3 that made crusader mercs be recruited in iberian area due to the constant moors reconquista etc. Could it be a leftover of that minimod?

  4. #24

    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Well it does make it the only region in the map in which you can replenish your crusade troops, as you can't recruit them in settlements normally.

  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Well it does make it the only region in the map in which you can replenish your crusade troops, as you can't recruit them in settlements normally.
    This is an important insight. It perhaps shouldn't be so. For the moment, I'll delete this possibility from the mercenary file.
    In the longer run, it should be dealt with within a larger task: analysis how are the Military Orders' units recruited (and disbanded? in some mods there's an automatic disbandment script after the end of a crusade), when the units should be made available (historical events), for which factions etc. A task for post 1.0 version.

  6. #26

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Crusades and Jihads are good mechanics but they are overpowered when used by the human player. This mod had a very good idea making them cost 3000 but in my opinion 3,000 is just not enough. I think joining should be somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000. If the cost could scale to your Empire size that would be even better.

    The AI should not have this cost because they do not use Crusades to their full potential. They just go straight for the region instead of using of conquering on the way.

    You said it should be a hard decision building a Watchtower. Crusades should also be a tough one.

    Someone in the cheese thread suggested removing them. I disagree but with how overpowered they can be I understand why.

  7. #27

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Well, I think a scropt with additional costs for the human player is not hard to make.
    Another solution is to have huge malus for attacking non-crusade target, like standing and/or reputation malus, or financial costs.

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  8. #28
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    I would rather be in favor of penalties in the event of a roundabout crusade ... I find that the 3000 florins are already very restrictive at the start of the game. In the event of a siege against a city not belonging to the faction targeted by the crusade, would it be possible to have the Crusader soldiers desert ?

  9. #29

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Well, I don't there should be penalties for attacking cities on the way that are Muslim or Pagan, as long as they are still moving towards the target. Maybe penalties for attacking Orthodox, but the Pope already gets mad. The first Crusade did not just march on Jerusalem, it fought a number of battles on the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I would rather be in favor of penalties in the event of a roundabout crusade ... I find that the 3000 florins are already very restrictive at the start of the game. In the event of a siege against a city not belonging to the faction targeted by the crusade, would it be possible to have the Crusader soldiers desert ?
    IMO Crusades get so many bonuses that 3,000 is really not that much. They get free upkeep, double movement, and cheap but strong mercenaries. Also excellent general traits and a chevron for all units. You can easily make tens of thousands from it.

    Another thing is, making Crusades cost money prevents the exploit of joining and rejoining a Crusade to stop your men from deserting.

    A script to make the men desert though might be good though, for having Crusader units fight other Catholics.
    Last edited by Steward Denethor II; February 17, 2021 at 02:15 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I would rather be in favor of penalties in the event of a roundabout crusade ... I find that the 3000 florins are already very restrictive at the start of the game. In the event of a siege against a city not belonging to the faction targeted by the crusade, would it be possible to have the Crusader soldiers desert ?
    Hahah you say that if i am Venice and my target is retake Jerusalem, but For mysterious reasons I decide to sack Constantinople with my crusader army, should my crusaders desert? Besides having huge penalties with the Byzantines and other Christians (excommunicated by the pope?)
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  11. #31

    Default Re: [M] - Military Orders (Catholic)

    Is the free upkeep for crusading armies hardcoded? IMO removing the free upkeep, for the player at least, would balance crusades. The rest of the rewards are enough to make you invest armies for capturing the target.

    If hardcoded, instead of an upfront pay, it should be a sum payed every turn, at 5k and more depending how many units you have in the crusading stack, it would still be cheaper than the actual cost of a stack.
    Last edited by xeron 22; February 27, 2021 at 01:20 PM.

  12. #32
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [M] - Military Orders (Catholic)

    Some factions will get small Crusader contingents as events (with conditions to be made more precise in the future), eg.:
    {POLAND20_ORDER_OF_DOBRIN_BODY}\n\nOrder of Dobrin (German: Orden von Dobrin), also known as the Brothers of Dobrzyń (Polish: Bracia Dobrzyńscy), was a military order created in the borderland of Masovia and Prussia during the 13th century Prussian Crusade to 'defend against Baltic Prussian raids'. The Order was created by Christian of Oliva, the first Bishop of Prussia (1216–1228), to protect Masovia and Kuyavia against raids from the pagan Prussians who defied Duke Konrad I of Masovia's attempts to subjugate them. At first the Order was composed of 15 German knights from Lower Saxony and Mecklenburg led by Master Brunon.\n\nThe Order of Dobrzyń provided assistance to the Cistercian missionaries in Prussia and protection from the raids of the pagan Prussian tribes. Their ideology was represented by their clothing - over their armor they had white cloaks, with symbols of a red sword raised up and a red star representing the revelations of Jesus to non Christians. The rules of their orders were based on those of the Livonian Order and the Knights Templar.\n\nGAME STRATEGY: A small crusader army is available for Poland in Płock.
    {POLAND20_ORDER_OF_DOBRIN_TITLE}Order of Dobrin
    Code:
    			;---------------------------------------------- events --------------------------------------		if RandomPercent < 30
    
    
    			if I_EventCounter POLAND20_ORDER_OF_DOBRIN = 0
    	    	and I_EventCounter poland20_first_tourney = 1
    				log -------------------- Poland event: (A) ORDER OF DOBRIN ----------------------------------------
    				set_event_counter continue 0
    
    
    				if I_TurnNumber > 200										; redundant
    		  ;     and I_CompareCounter number_chapter_houses_built > 0		; Poland owns a chapter house - include this condition when the relevant counter exists
    				and I_SettlementOwner Twangste = slave						; Pagans are still in Prussia
    				and I_SettlementOwner Plock = poland						; Poland is accross the border
    					set_event_counter continue 1
    				end_if
    				
    				if I_EventCounter continue = 1
    					set_event_counter continue 0
    					historic_event POLAND20_ORDER_OF_DOBRIN factions { poland, hre, denmark, lithuania, kievan_rus, russia, }
    					spawn_army
    						faction poland
    						character	Bernard, general, age 32, x 226, y 224
    						unit	Ritterbruder				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    						unit	Dismounted Ritterbruder		exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    						unit	Crusader Sergeants			exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0						
    					end					
    					if not I_IsFactionAIControlled poland
    						set_event_counter poland20_order_of_dobrin_player 1
    					end_if	
    				end_if
    			end_if
    			
    		end_if

    {HUNGARY20_HOSPITALLERS_ARRIVE_BODY}The first Hospitaller church in Hungary was established in Székesfehérvár (Alba Regia) in 1193. However, the arrival of the Hospitallers in the Hungarian kingdom can be traced back to the middle of the twelfth century, at the same time as the Order was established in neighbouring Austria and Bohemia. The charitable intentions of Queen Euphrosyne (b.1130-†c.1193) were probably important in the introduction of the Order than the military concerns of her husband, King Géza II (1142-1162). The first monastery was founded just outside the city walls.\n\nGAME STRATEGY: A small Hospitaller army is available for Hungary in next to Szekesfehervar.
    {HUNGARY20_HOSPITALLERS_ARRIVE_TITLE}The Hospitallers established in Hungary
    Code:
    		;---------------------------------------------- events --------------------------------------		if RandomPercent < 30
    
    
    			if I_EventCounter HUNGARY20_HOSPITALLERS_ARRIVE < 1
    			and RandomPercent < 20
    			and I_TurnNumber > 60
    			and I_SettlementOwner Esztergom = hungary							; Hungary holds its core lands
    			and I_SettlementOwner Szekesfehervar = hungary
    					
    				set_event_counter continue 0
    				if I_EventCounter knights_hospitaller > 0
    					set_event_counter continue 1
    				end_if
    				if I_EventCounter continue = 1
    					set_event_counter continue 0
    					historic_event HUNGARY20_HOSPITALLERS_ARRIVE factions { kievan_rus, hungary, poland, cumans, denmark, byzantium, serbia, hre, france, }
    					if not I_IsFactionAIControlled hungary
    						inc_event_counter hungary20_hospitallers_arrive_player 1
    					end_if
    					spawn_army
    						faction hungary
    						character	Betlehem, general, age 32, x 209, y 184
    						unit	Knights Hospitaller				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    						unit	Dismounted Knights Hospitaller	exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    						unit	Crusader Sergeants				exp 0 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    					end					
    				end_if
    			end_if
    
    
    		end_if

  13. #33

    Default Re: Military Orders (Latin)

    Great idea Jurand! Also is possible for iberian factions? Many crusaders fought in Iberia in the Reconquista...and also do you plan to reform the recruitment of religious orders? I think there should also be a sergeant unit for each military order or maybe a generic one if there aren't enough slots... actually it's really annoying to see that you usually can't recruit crusaders from your chapter houses due to reputation... I think it should depend on your relations with the Pope and in some regions there should be permanent crusaders like in Iberia( Reconquest), at least until you expel the Moors from the Iberian peninsula and in Levant for the crusader states, maybe even for the teutonic order in Prussia ...
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  14. #34

    Default Re: [M] - Military Orders (Catholic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Spanish Military Orders


    I. Historical map

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    There're three issues:

    (1) the unit:
    Knights of Santiago - I haven't delved into it yet, I'm not sure which way to go. They may be only for the three Iberian factions (so if they expand to the Middle East, those Knights would appear also there), but they may also be typical only to Iberia (which means also other Latin factions would have access to).

    (2) the building:
    But the major issue and message is: due to 24-buildings-displayed limit, I've planned to cut down the max number of chapter houses in one settlement to 1. This will require a bit of thinking and design, and then coding because in some settlments many Military Orders had been historically present (Acre, Paris, Venice, London etc.). I'll use all 9 levels of the building line to produce historical combinations. Then I'd code it in the EDB, using hidden resources. This is going rather an extensive work.

    (3) the historical events that allow setting up a building and (separately) recruitment of those Knights.
    There's code in the script, but I haven't reviewed it yet, I don't remember what does it consists of.
    Giving my opinion on this Jurand could tell you:

    1. I would tell you to make a mixture of both proposals, for the 3 Iberian factions these Santiago Knights can be recruited in other places such as in the Holy Land or the Middle East, but also for the Catholic factions they can be recruited by them only in the Iberian Peninsula (as a regional and specific plus of these lands in continuous struggle with the Moors/Muslims)
    2. Agree with respecting the maximum of 24 buildings, I think that all the military orders could be represented, you did something similar with the Hanseatic League and its different models in different settlements, On the other hand, I think that as I said before, the "sergeants of the military orders" could be represented in a generic way, I think that with a dark outfit/clothes and a red cross, kite shield and spear. This non-noble class was also important in the military orders of the Templars / Hospitallers / Teutonics / Santiago

    3. You could add some events where small armies of crusader units / military orders join in some areas as you did for Poland and Hungary, but this time in the Iberian "Reconquista", representing the European crusader volunteers who came to Iberia to fight for the side of the Iberian Christian armies against the Moors.
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  15. #35
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [M] - Military Orders (Catholic)

    Somehow related events will be introduced, even though one will have to play long to experience them:
    {ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE_BODY}The Order of the Golden Fleece was established on 10 January 1430, by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy (on the occasion of his wedding to Isabella of Portugal), in celebration of the prosperous and wealthy domains united in his person that ran from Flanders to Switzerland.\n\nThe order—founded to defend the Roman Catholic religion, to uphold the usages of chivalry, and to increase the prestige of the dukes of Burgundy — was ideally supposed to settle all disputes between its knights, whose actions were to be appraised, commended, or censured at its chapters; the knights had the right to trial by their fellows on charges of rebellion, treason, or heresy.
    {ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE_TITLE}The Order of the Golden Fleece


    {ORDER_DRAGON_BODY}The Order of the Dragon (Latin: Societas Draconistarum, literally "Society of the Dragonists") was a monarchical chivalric order only for selected higher aristocracy and monarchs, founded in 1408 by Sigismund of Luxembourg, who was then King of Hungary and Croatia (r. 1387–1437) and later became Holy Roman Emperor (r. 1433–1437). It was fashioned after the military orders of the Crusades, requiring its initiates to defend the cross and fight the enemies of Christianity, particularly the Ottoman Empire.\n\nThe Order flourished during the first half of the 15th century, primarily in Germany and Italy. After Sigismund's death in 1437, its importance declined in Western Europe. However, after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, it continued to play a role in Hungary, Serbia and Romania, which bore the brunt of the Ottoman incursions.
    {ORDER_DRAGON_TITLE}Societas Draconistarum


    {ORDER_GARTER_BODY}The Most Noble Order of the Garter is an order of chivalry founded by Edward III of England in 1348. It is the most senior order of knighthood in the British honours system, outranked in precedence only by the Victoria Cross and the George Cross. The Order of the Garter is dedicated to the image and arms of Saint George, England's patron saint.\n\nThe order's emblem is a garter with the motto Honi soit qui mal y pense (Middle French for 'Shame on him who thinks evil of it') in gold lettering.\n\nAppointments are at the sovereign's sole discretion and are usually in recognition of a national contribution, for public service, or for personal service to the sovereign. Membership of the order is limited to the sovereign, the Prince of Wales, and no more than 24 living members, or Companions.
    {ORDER_GARTER_TITLE}Honi soit qui mal y pense
    event historic ORDER_GARTER
    date 216

    event historic ORDER_DRAGON
    date 276

    event historic ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE
    date 298

  16. #36

    Default Re: [M] - Military Orders (Catholic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Somehow related events will be introduced, even though one will have to play long to experience them:


    event historic ORDER_GARTER
    date 216

    event historic ORDER_DRAGON
    date 276

    event historic ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE
    date 298
    Great events!, Jurand Will this have consequences or events related to the game strategy? For example, new units or benefits are unlocked for the player.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Military Orders (Latin)

    These past days I have been lucky enough to be able to visit Toledo and I have loved it, I have visited historical-military museums and numerous medieval historical enclaves and I have realized the importance that the Templars had in Toledo as well as in the rest of Spain that together with the national military orders (Santiago, Calatrava, Montesa, Alcántara) shared with the rest of the foreign military orders (Templars, Hospitallers and even Teutonics)
    I think that when the revision of the military orders in the game arrives, it should be reviewed very specifically in the Iberian Peninsula since due to the "Reconquest" these orders were very present and founded many castles and parcels on the borders against the Moors, in addition to be very important in the Castilian, Aragonese and Portuguese armies.
    I leave you an interesting link about it.

    https://memoriadelaraduey.blog/2017/...stilla-y-leon/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/fascina...ars-order/amp/

    https://www.templars-route.eu/en/tem...ian-peninsula/

    https://www.history.co.uk/shows/lost...quista-and-the
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Military Orders (Latin)

    @Jurand and kostic, i have been in Caceres recently and i have found interesting documents and information about Santiago orders .
    The origin of this famous Spanish order was in Cáceres, I leave you the link below, I think it would also be correct and historical to change the icon of the Order of Santiago for what it was historically since the current emblem dates from more than the 16th century onwards I leave you historical images too:
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fratres_de_C%C3%A1ceres
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orden_de_Santiago

    Maybe @kostic can design new unit models for Santiago order, and if is possible also Sergeants order
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    . Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Santiago_XII.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	42.6 KB 
ID:	368918Click image for larger version. 

Name:	evolucion-cruz-fratres-santiago.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	79.9 KB 
ID:	368919
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  19. #39
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Military Orders (Latin)

    Valuable information ! Thank you, friend. I'll think about changing that when I get to those units.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Playing England around round 90 my Hospitaller units disappeared from the recruitment.
    Did I offend someone with my attack on fellow catholics in Scotland?
    Or did I miss some info?

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