Military Orders (Latin)

[Jurand of Cracow]

This thread will be devoted to gathering material about the Catholic Military Orders.


If you want to watch a documentary on the crusades, it is here: BBC three 45-min movies. For a historian it's a bit too dramatic and stereotypical, but so is our game.

[Jurand of Cracow]

General issues

Map of the Orders in the Holy Land

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Jurand of Cracow]

Knights Templars


I. Historical map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

II. Units

to be developed

[Jurand of Cracow]

Knights Hospitallers

The Hospitaller Order has been militarised sometime in mid-12th century. This should be somehow represented in the recruitment possibilities.

I. Historical map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

II. Units

to be developed

III. Historical sources

Zsolt Hunyadi, 2010, The Hospitallers in the Medieval Kingdom of Hungary c. 1150–1387

.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Teutonic Knights

Watch a documentary - this is in French.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is 13th century armour wearing process.

I. Historical map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

II. Units

to be developed

[Jurand of Cracow]

Spanish Military Orders


I. Historical map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There're three issues:

(1) the unit:
Knights of Santiago - I haven't delved into it yet, I'm not sure which way to go. They may be only for the three Iberian factions (so if they expand to the Middle East, those Knights would appear also there), but they may also be typical only to Iberia (which means also other Latin factions would have access to).

(2) the building:
But the major issue and message is: due to 24-buildings-displayed limit, I've planned to cut down the max number of chapter houses in one settlement to 1. This will require a bit of thinking and design, and then coding because in some settlments many Military Orders had been historically present (Acre, Paris, Venice, London etc.). I'll use all 9 levels of the building line to produce historical combinations. Then I'd code it in the EDB, using hidden resources. This is going rather an extensive work.

(3) the historical events that allow setting up a building and (separately) recruitment of those Knights.
There's code in the script, but I haven't reviewed it yet, I don't remember what does it consists of.

[j.a.luna]

Spanish Military Orders


I. Historical map

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There're three issues:

(1) the unit:
Knights of Santiago - I haven't delved into it yet, I'm not sure which way to go. They may be only for the three Iberian factions (so if they expand to the Middle East, those Knights would appear also there), but they may also be typical only to Iberia (which means also other Latin factions would have access to).

(2) the building:
But the major issue and message is: due to 24-buildings-displayed limit, I've planned to cut down the max number of chapter houses in one settlement to 1. This will require a bit of thinking and design, and then coding because in some settlments many Military Orders had been historically present (Acre, Paris, Venice, London etc.). I'll use all 9 levels of the building line to produce historical combinations. Then I'd code it in the EDB, using hidden resources. This is going rather an extensive work.

(3) the historical events that allow setting up a building and (separately) recruitment of those Knights.
There's code in the script, but I haven't reviewed it yet, I don't remember what does it consists of.

Giving my opinion on this Jurand could tell you:

1. I would tell you to make a mixture of both proposals, for the 3 Iberian factions these Santiago Knights can be recruited in other places such as in the Holy Land or the Middle East, but also for the Catholic factions they can be recruited by them only in the Iberian Peninsula (as a regional and specific plus of these lands in continuous struggle with the Moors/Muslims)
2. Agree with respecting the maximum of 24 buildings, I think that all the military orders could be represented, you did something similar with the Hanseatic League and its different models in different settlements, On the other hand, I think that as I said before, the "sergeants of the military orders" could be represented in a generic way, I think that with a dark outfit/clothes and a red cross, kite shield and spear. This non-noble class was also important in the military orders of the Templars / Hospitallers / Teutonics / Santiago

3. You could add some events where small armies of crusader units / military orders join in some areas as you did for Poland and Hungary, but this time in the Iberian "Reconquista", representing the European crusader volunteers who came to Iberia to fight for the side of the Iberian Christian armies against the Moors.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Somehow related events will be introduced, even though one will have to play long to experience them:

{ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE_BODY}The Order of the Golden Fleece was established on 10 January 1430, by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy (on the occasion of his wedding to Isabella of Portugal), in celebration of the prosperous and wealthy domains united in his person that ran from Flanders to Switzerland.\n\nThe order—founded to defend the Roman Catholic religion, to uphold the usages of chivalry, and to increase the prestige of the dukes of Burgundy — was ideally supposed to settle all disputes between its knights, whose actions were to be appraised, commended, or censured at its chapters; the knights had the right to trial by their fellows on charges of rebellion, treason, or heresy.
{ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE_TITLE}The Order of the Golden Fleece


{ORDER_DRAGON_BODY}The Order of the Dragon (Latin: Societas Draconistarum, literally "Society of the Dragonists") was a monarchical chivalric order only for selected higher aristocracy and monarchs, founded in 1408 by Sigismund of Luxembourg, who was then King of Hungary and Croatia (r. 1387–1437) and later became Holy Roman Emperor (r. 1433–1437). It was fashioned after the military orders of the Crusades, requiring its initiates to defend the cross and fight the enemies of Christianity, particularly the Ottoman Empire.\n\nThe Order flourished during the first half of the 15th century, primarily in Germany and Italy. After Sigismund's death in 1437, its importance declined in Western Europe. However, after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, it continued to play a role in Hungary, Serbia and Romania, which bore the brunt of the Ottoman incursions.
{ORDER_DRAGON_TITLE}Societas Draconistarum


{ORDER_GARTER_BODY}The Most Noble Order of the Garter is an order of chivalry founded by Edward III of England in 1348. It is the most senior order of knighthood in the British honours system, outranked in precedence only by the Victoria Cross and the George Cross. The Order of the Garter is dedicated to the image and arms of Saint George, England's patron saint.\n\nThe order's emblem is a garter with the motto Honi soit qui mal y pense (Middle French for 'Shame on him who thinks evil of it') in gold lettering.\n\nAppointments are at the sovereign's sole discretion and are usually in recognition of a national contribution, for public service, or for personal service to the sovereign. Membership of the order is limited to the sovereign, the Prince of Wales, and no more than 24 living members, or Companions.
{ORDER_GARTER_TITLE}Honi soit qui mal y pense

event historic ORDER_GARTER
date 216

event historic ORDER_DRAGON
date 276

event historic ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE
date 298

[j.a.luna]

Somehow related events will be introduced, even though one will have to play long to experience them:


event historic ORDER_GARTER
date 216

event historic ORDER_DRAGON
date 276

event historic ORDER_GOLDEN_FLEECE
date 298

Great events!, Jurand Will this have consequences or events related to the game strategy? For example, new units or benefits are unlocked for the player.

[Navajo Joe]

JOC,

You might want to add the Knights of Calatrava, they were a substantial Spanish order, there is another I believe it is Montero or something like that.

NJ

[j.a.luna]

JOC,

You might want to add the Knights of Calatrava, they were a substantial Spanish order, there is another I believe it is Montero or something like that.

NJ

Yes, the first spanish military order was Calatrava, after was Santiago, the most famous, and also is represented in the game.The Order of Santiago is one of the most renowned military orders in the history of the world, its insignia being particularly recognisable and abundant in Western art.
The order of Montesa is for Crown of Aragon, and the rest(Santiago, Calatrava and Alcántara) were for castilians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_military_orders
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Santiago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Montesa

[Tripledot]

It seems that Burzenland in eastern Hungary was an autonomous fiefdom of the Teutonic Order. I think this justifies Hungary being able to construct a Teutonic Knights Major Chapter House (and thus have access to mounted Ritterbruders).

[Jurand of Cracow]

It seems that Burzenland in eastern Hungary was an autonomous fiefdom of the Teutonic Order. I think this justifies Hungary being able to construct a Teutonic Knights Major Chapter House (and thus have access to mounted Ritterbruders).

only 1211-1224 and were promtly kicked out of the country by the royal decree.
This province will has hidden resource for the TO (so HRE can build the units), but I don't think it justifies Hungary having the access.

[Jurand of Cracow]

sorry guys, I've mixed something with these threads, I'll try to restore the previous, if possible

[Jurand of Cracow]

Reserved I

[Thorbjorn Jagelund]

Hospitalier knights' banners are completely black, when under the control of Aragon or France. I haven't tried it on other factions but it seems unintended.

[Elendil 03]

There's a SS6.3 submod for the Teutonic Order and the Lithuanians. If I recall correctly, it has not been implemented for SS6.4 and it's also not listed in the SSHIP changelog.

Also, why not have the TO as AOR unit or tie their chapter houses to the broader region only? Had they not been invited by Conrad of Masovia, but a Hungarian noble, they would have answered as well.

[j.a.luna]

Regarding units for military orders, i think that is historical add sergeant class for all orders, not only templars as in the current game. Templars have so many units in the game as templars crossbowmen, templars squires, templar axe knights and others.

sship team( Kostic maybe) , could make a "sergeant class" for all these catholic orders with similar stats and weapons(spearmen) but differents clothes(historical) as is logical.

So my proposal is remove some templars units(for free slots if you need)as templar squires, crossbowmen.... and just leave knights and sergeants units for them.
Military orders will have knights and dismounted knights( with low availability) but also order sergeant spearmen and maybe mounted sergeant if you have enought free slots.


A interesant webpage about military orders:
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/templars.htm#popular
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/hospitallers.htm
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/teutonic.htm










SANTIAGO SERGEANTS









TEMPLAR SERGEANT









HOSPITALLER SERGEANT








TEUTONIC SERGEANT

[j.a.luna]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Regarding units for military orders, i think that is historical add sergeant class for all orders, not only templars as in the current game. Templars have so many units in the game as templars crossbowmen, templars squires, templar axe knights and others.

sship team( Kostic maybe) , could make a "sergeant class" for all these catholic orders with similar stats and weapons(spearmen) but differents clothes(historical) as is logical.

So my proposal is remove some templars units(for free slots if you need)as templar squires, crossbowmen.... and just leave knights and sergeants units for them.
Military orders will have knights and dismounted knights( with low availability) but also order sergeant spearmen and maybe mounted sergeant if you have enought free slots.


A interesant webpage about military orders:
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/templars.htm#popular
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/hospitallers.htm
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/teutonic.htm










SANTIAGO SERGEANTS









TEMPLAR SERGEANT









HOSPITALLER SERGEANT








TEUTONIC SERGEANT

sship developers, are you going to make any changes in the next version regarding religious orders?
my proposals were to add sergeants and support units for all orders, or a generic unit called "order sergeants" for all orders similar to ordinary spearmen sergeants units.

And on the other hand to say if it is possible to have permanent units of religious orders (Santiago, templars ...) in Iberia to fight against the Moors, or at least until the entire Iberian Peninsula has been conquered.

What is your opinion???

[removeduser_28376423423]

Regarding units for military orders, i think that is historical add sergeant class for all orders, not only templars as in the current game. Templars have so many units in the game as templars crossbowmen, templars squires, templar axe knights and others.

sship team (Kostic maybe), could make a "sergeant class" for all these catholic orders with similar stats and weapons(spearmen) but differents clothes(historical) as is logical.

I'm in favor of giving them spears as primary and swords (spanish orders, hospitallers) or swords mixed with axes (teutonic, templar, holy sepulchre) as secondary, would that be difficult? I think it would be both realistic and tactical gameplay wise.