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Thread: Scutarii armor

  1. #1

    Default Scutarii armor

    https://imgur.com/a/3kROuOs

    I've noticed that the new "Scutarii" units have very different armors. The sword unit appears to have mail and the standard looking linothorax. The spear unit appears to have its own unique armor. This type appears in some of the current iberian units, but of the new units it looks like the only one. Why is this? What is it inspired by?

    I looked back at the other thread (https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...an-Linen-armor) and from what I can tell none of the armor clearly lines up with this type, though the example this was inspired by could be missing.

    I suppose it looks a bit like this (https://imgur.com/a/FeJVIph), but to me this looks like a stylized linothorax which is used for the other new iberian units that also possibly appears in other artistic examples (https://imgur.com/a/FbdZkKE).
    Last edited by Hirtius; April 15, 2020 at 01:14 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    EB2 has a tendency to give swordsmen units better armor. For example, the Galatinised swordsmen have mail while the spearmen version does not.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/3kROuOs

    I've noticed that the new "Scutarii" units have very different armors. The sword unit appears to have mail and the standard looking linothorax. The spear unit appears to have its own unique armor. This type appears in some of the current iberian units, but of the new units it looks like the only one. Why is this? What is it inspired by?

    I looked back at the other thread (https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...an-Linen-armor) and from what I can tell none of the armor clearly lines up with this type, though the example this was inspired by could be missing.

    I suppose it looks a bit like this (https://imgur.com/a/FeJVIph), but to me this looks like a stylized linothorax which is used for the other new iberian units that also possibly appears in other artistic examples (https://imgur.com/a/FbdZkKE).
    The shape of the organic armour is inspired by the vase of the warriors. It is the same shape and we have just followed the modern interpretations of these Iberian armours understood as protections of organic nature (leather/linen/textile/quilted).

    The difference between the armours of these units is due to the fact that the Iberian scutarii swordsmen represent Iberian warriors that fight as mercenaries or auxiliaries in Mediterranean armies (they can be understood as troops similar to the Hannibal's Iberian veterans, Sertorious's allies, Pompey's clients, etc.). They have been equipped by foreign states (mainly Carthage). However, the new Iberian Scutarii spearmen represent local warriors that have adopted some foreign weapons such as the helmets and the shields but since they are equipped by themselves, they don't use chainmail armours because they were very rare in the Iberian Peninsula (they are mentioned by the written sources as armours used by a minority of Hispano-Celtic warriors. From an archaeological point of view, we know some sculptures and a real rest but that date back from a late and romanized period).
    Last edited by Trarco; April 15, 2020 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Thanks Trarco! That makes sense. If this is the vase (crátera de la monomaquia de Libisosa) you are talking about (https://imgur.com/a/FeJVIph), I really think it looks like just a stylized linothorax. The picture is a bit grainy, but I found a close up (https://imgur.com/a/deBcr8w) and it looks like it has pteryges. Here is the other one (https://imgur.com/caf1VEv).

    This is not the only vase, here is another that might show pteryges (https://imgur.com/yHrxaaQ).

    It also appears that even some armors that are impossible to decipher often have something extending down in front of the legs (https://imgur.com/lezidtb), including everyone's favorite (https://imgur.com/5mgRvH3). Even if you don't change it to look more like the iconic linothorax shape, it seems that many armors of the had something that could resemble or function as pteryges.
    Last edited by Hirtius; April 15, 2020 at 03:36 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    The shape of the organic armour is inspired by the vase of the warriors. It is the same shape and we have just followed the modern interpretations of these Iberian armours understood as protections of organic nature (leather/linen/textile/quilted).

    The difference between the armours of these units is due to the fact that the Iberian scutarii swordsmen represent Iberian warriors that fight as mercenaries or auxiliaries in Mediterranean armies (they can be understood as troops similar to the Hannibal's Iberian veterans, Sertorious's allies, Pompey's clients, etc.). They have been equipped by foreign states (mainly Carthage). However, the new Iberian Scutarii spearmen represent local warriors that have adopted some foreign weapons such as the helmets and the shields but since they are equipped by themselves, they don't use chainmail armours because they were very rare in the Iberian Peninsula (they are mentioned by the written sources as armours used by a minority of Hispano-Celtic warriors. From an archaeological point of view, we know some sculptures and a real rest but that date back from a late and romanized period).
    Interesting. This implies that Mediterranean powers preferred that Iberians function as swordsmen, right?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    Thanks Trarco! That makes sense. If this is the vase (crátera de la monomaquia de Libisosa) you are talking about (<a href="https://imgur.com/a/FeJVIph" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/a/FeJVIph</a>), I really think it looks like just a stylized linothorax. The picture is a bit grainy, but I found a close up (<a href="https://imgur.com/a/deBcr8w" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/a/deBcr8w</a>) and it looks like it has pteryges. Here is the other one (<a href="https://imgur.com/caf1VEv" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/caf1VEv</a>).
    I am referring to the vase of Llíria:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Regarding the vase of Libisosa, the armour depicted may be a linothorax as you say, but it may also represent another type of traditional Iberian protection. I am referring to this one:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    This is not the only vase, here is another that might show pteryges (<a href="https://imgur.com/yHrxaaQ" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/yHrxaaQ</a>).
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    It also appears that even some armors that are impossible to decipher often have something extending down in front of the legs (<a href="https://imgur.com/lezidtb" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/lezidtb</a>), including everyone's favorite (<a href="https://imgur.com/5mgRvH3" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/5mgRvH3</a>). Even if you don't change it to look more like the iconic linothorax shape, it seems that many armors of the had something that could resemble or function as pteryges.
    Undoubtedly, Iberian armours had pteryges. Some of the planned revamped Iberian units will have this element.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Interesting. This implies that Mediterranean powers preferred that Iberians function as swordsmen, right?
    The real panoply was a heavy javelin, a thrusting spear and a sword but the engine doesn't allow us to use this combination. That said, this unit uses some of the most important elements that were transferred between Carthaginians, Celtiberians and Romans since the Second Punic War: oval shield, Montefortino helmet, Celtiberian La Tene sword (prototype of the gladius hispaniensis) and Celtiberian Bidiscoidal dagger (prototype of the Roman pugio). So, to answer your question, the Mediterranean influences did favour the use of foreign swords among the Iberians as it is shown in some late sculptures, that said, the spear was always a very fundamental weapon as is attested by the existence of Iberian spearheads of many types that can be dated in a Roman period.
    Last edited by Trarco; April 16, 2020 at 07:00 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    How does the vase of Llíria translate into the Scutarii armor? It doesn't look like it. To be fair, the armor on the vase of Llíria doesn't look like anything known anyways.

    On another topic, why is all the armor brown? I understand that it might be the color of the organic materials, but it looks like most of the armor on the vases are light in color compared to other things. This might be for emphasis, and I know we can't truly know what color it might be. It does appear that some of the armors might have designs, as in this (https://imgur.com/yHrxaaQ) that I linked to earlier.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Similar shape and organic nature, that's how the vase of Llíria translates into the Scutarii armor.

    That could be an armour or a tunic, it is hard to say with certainty.

  9. #9
    Marvzilla's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Yeah I am not a fan of their redesign either, looks a bit like leather aprons, on the base of very flimsy material that rather looks like a version of Linothorax (Or just thorax you guys know what I mean), or something looking different than your guys vision. I mean it would work if not for those flimsy straps, at their shoulders, and maybe some of them, as already said, being dyed or more decorated.
    Last edited by Marvzilla; April 17, 2020 at 10:57 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    The real panoply was a heavy javelin, a thrusting spear and a sword but the engine doesn't allow us to use this combination. That said, this unit uses some of the most important elements that were transferred between Carthaginians, Celtiberians and Romans since the Second Punic War: oval shield, Montefortino helmet, Celtiberian La Tene sword (prototype of the gladius hispaniensis) and Celtiberian Bidiscoidal dagger (prototype of the Roman pugio). So, to answer your question, the Mediterranean influences did favour the use of foreign swords among the Iberians as it is shown in some late sculptures, that said, the spear was always a very fundamental weapon as is attested by the existence of Iberian spearheads of many types that can be dated in a Roman period.
    If the Iberians fought as both spearmen and swordsmen in foreign armies, there really isn't a point in making the swordsmen version "mercenary"and better armored while the spearmen version is "local" and less armored. The two unit versions should represent different tactical deployment options of the same type of troop while the appearance of foreign equipment in both versions represents the more affluent and better traveled warrriors among them.
    Last edited by Rad; April 17, 2020 at 12:03 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    The point is that the unit slots are finite and the engine hardcoded and bugged. We are not going to use two slots to represent the same thing. The swordsmen represent allies and auxiliaries this is why they have chainmail armours and the spearmen represent locals with a modified panoply in regard to the traditional one. EBII is full of units that use either spears or swords but in real life, both weapons would have been used by those units. Blame the engine.


    Regarding the armour, the interpretations are subjective and it is very difficult to reenact armours of organic nature. Probably Iberians used several armours of organic nature including textile protections, leather protections, linen and felt armours. You are speaking about the use of the linothorax and the pteryges. Both of them will appear in other Iberian units.
    Last edited by Trarco; April 17, 2020 at 12:22 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    The point is that the unit slots are finite and the engine hardcoded and bugged. We are not going to use two slots to represent the same thing. The swordsmen represent allies and auxiliaries this is why they have chainmail armours and the spearmen represent locals with a modified panoply in regard to the traditional one. EBII is full of units that use either spears or swords but in real life, both weapons would have been used by those units. Blame the engine.
    The two Scutarii units could both represent mercenaries and locals without any issue.

  13. #13
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    The two Scutarii units could both represent mercenaries and locals without any issue.
    But then we would lose a good spearmen unit, one of my favorite ones I must say.

    The thing is, we are not able to have the unit use the spear correctly if it also has a sword due to the engine, so this is the best solution for it.
    The spearmen represent very well the locals because spear was a more common and less expensive weapon than swords and their armour also reflects their status.

    Your solution Rad would only work if the engine worked correctly, then we could represent both type of units.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    But then we would lose a good spearmen unit, one of my favorite ones I must say.

    The thing is, we are not able to have the unit use the spear correctly if it also has a sword due to the engine, so this is the best solution for it.
    The spearmen represent very well the locals because spear was a more common and less expensive weapon than swords and their armour also reflects their status.

    Your solution Rad would only work if the engine worked correctly, then we could represent both type of units.
    I did not say that one unit should be ditched. I said that both the spearmen and the swordsmen units could both represent both mercenaries and locals. Man, that's a lot of the word both

    The two units are the same troop type, they are just different tactical versions of it. It's ridiculous to give swordsmen more armor, especially when the spearmen are also shown to have swords but just can't use them - thanks, Med2 engine!
    Last edited by Rad; April 17, 2020 at 03:50 PM.

  15. #15
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post

    The two units are the same troop type, they are just different tactical versions of it. It's ridiculous to give swordsmen more armor, especially when the spearmen are also shown to have swords but just can't use them - thanks, Med2 engine!
    It's not ridiculous. The spearmen represent the locals with less armour while the swordsmen represent the allies, auxilaries and mercenaries that have received better armour.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    I don't see the problem with having one unit representing more native influence.

    My question for that is will it change recruitment? For example, will only foreign powers like Carthage and Rome be able to use the swordsmen, or will the Lusitanians and Areuaki (as well as allied governments) be able to recruit them as well? Will one have greater recruitment numbers than the other?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    It's not ridiculous. The spearmen represent the locals with less armour while the swordsmen represent the allies, auxilaries and mercenaries that have received better armour.
    They'll most likely be recruitable from the same places which will make that division even more artificial.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    I don't see the problem with having one unit representing more native influence.

    My question for that is will it change recruitment? For example, will only foreign powers like Carthage and Rome be able to use the swordsmen, or will the Lusitanians and Areuaki (as well as allied governments) be able to recruit them as well? Will one have greater recruitment numbers than the other?
    The different Lusitanian and Celtiberian governments will play an important role in the recruitment of these units. The swordsmen will be only recruitable in the Iberian Peninsula if you establish an "area of mercenary recruitment", additionally, they will be available in the Central Mediterranean if you establish the correct governments. however, the spearmen will be available only in the Levant of the Iberian Peninsula (although in larger numbers).


    Carthaginians will have access to this unit outside the Iberian Peninsula in some key areas if they establish some of their future new governments. Like in the above case, the spearmen will be only recruitable in the Iberian Peninsula.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    Carthaginians will have access to this unit outside the Iberian Peninsula in some key areas if they establish some of their future new governments. Like in the above case, the spearmen will be only recruitable in the Iberian Peninsula.
    Sticking to the story, I like it!
    Well, my mind is at ease now.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Scutarii armor

    Thanks Trarco! Sorry to pester you with so many questions. You and the rest of the team are doing great and I can't wait to see what is next!

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