Strategic Vision of TWC

[Finlander]

“A man who has the knowledge but lacks the power to express it is no better off than if he never had any ideas at all.”
– Pericles

Now please take a moment and think about the meaning of the quote above that I selected randomly from the Internet to impress you by sounding so smart. Let it bring a wee bit of wisdom from the Ancient times before we proceed to discuss serious matters.


Just before we do so, let me utilize the authority of Ancient influencer by saying that: if Pericles was here today, he might say that the problem of Curia could either be the lack of ideas or power to do anything with them. I think we all agree with him that he is onto something here, if that happened that is.


I cannot even remember when it started but there seem to be a growing desire for change in Curia, but the initiatives proposed seem to hit the brick wall of opposition time and time again. There probably are many reasons for why this happens. One plausible explanation is of course that there are too many noises coming from different directions. Majority of citizens may want to change but the proposals lack strategic objective. If Curia wants a change, there should be a clear vision that is agreed upon by its members. It could be as simple as an aspirational sentence that gives direction and meaning on why there is a need for change and what has to be done so that the vision shared together comes reality.


I hope that this thread may serve as a place to openly discuss our views on Curia and citizenship. There probably are great many thoughts on this, but it is useful to hear each other out and try making the management of change more strategic by identifying the common concerns regarding:

• Identity
  
• Value
  
• Vision

There could be a comprehensive list of items to be discussed, but to throw some things in that may guide the conversation:


Identity


Reflection on the identity can be a good starting point for the process. TWC is a huge site; citizens just like the general forum members are coming from different kind of backgrounds. It is natural to assume that the identity of the citizenship will vary as well.

• Who are we exactly?
• What is our role in any of this?
• Why do we exist? What difference we make?

It is good also to consider if the answers to above questions apply to TWC in general. Note that constructing any sort of identity this way will only help building up the base of the reality; there are much more to it, but it could help in building purpose to our actions.


Value


Understanding the value of Curia and citizenship is important in justifying why citizens should exist. Perhaps the members here consider that there is no added value to the forum at all. Try to consider the following:

• What value do we bring to citizens and TWC in general?

At later stage we may find inconsistencies with the concept of value. Maybe the idea of value is outdated; what it used to be years ago is no longer relevant, or is it?


Vision


The vision is the main point and ties together the above sections. If we don’t have a common identity or don’t share the same concept of value, how can we find meaning in anything we do? Likewise, lacking the vision of the future is devastating for justifying a change. Finding a clear vision that most of us agree with will guide us to take the right actions towards accomplishing the future objectives. It also gives legitimacy to breaking the status quo and drive for change.

• What Curia/TWC should be like in the future?
• What are the future objectives we want to achieve?

If majority of the members have a shared vision, it will help the members to explain and understand why the changes are happening.


Moreover, having a bit of reality check can be done at this point:

• Is the current state of the site driving towards the accomplishment of the vision?
• Where can we improve - What are the biggest problems of the site?
• What are we doing well - What are the strengths of the site?

It is fruitful to take a few moments to consider these points individually. Hopefully a short reflection on the current affairs of the site and comparison it against the vision will help clarifying what steps ought to be taken to put the site in right tracks. Thank you all for reading and please stay safe at these extraordinary times.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

And here I was concerned I'd just be stonewalled by addressing things like these directly in the neighboring thread. Well, here we are. It attempts to ask much of the same things, in a less direct 'information gathering' way to try and link together ideas, while this is a more fundamental approach free of my word-walling .

[...] let me utilize the authority of Ancient influencer by saying that: if Pericles was here today, he might say that the problem of Curia could either be the lack of ideas or power to do anything with them. I think we all agree with him that he is onto something here, if that happened that is.

I believe, in proxy to this, the issue boils down to a few more things. Some include or cause the concise, but vague bolded statements.
- Philosophically, a deep apathy has stripped away the pretense of 'roleplay credibility' the Curia had before.
- The even line of dwindling interest by the administration; it would seem to me that it is considered an interesting historical novelty at best, not a true asset to the site even in potential that they would explore themselves. I've mentioned this multiple times and each time I am open to hearing the contrary.
- The parallel dwindling interest of the site itself, which I believe to be a primary instigator alongside its inability to assemble something like this thread and consider the times in a way that will actually make progress.

I cannot even remember when it started but there seem to be a growing desire for change in Curia, but the initiatives proposed seem to hit the brick wall of opposition time and time again. There probably are many reasons for why this happens. One plausible explanation is of course that there are too many noises coming from different directions. Majority of citizens may want to change but the proposals lack strategic objective. If Curia wants a change, there should be a clear vision that is agreed upon by its members. It could be as simple as an aspirational sentence that gives direction and meaning on why there is a need for change and what has to be done so that the vision shared together comes reality.

One key directive of my current initiative. I do not want things to bog down in the individual this and that they want to see, rather to explore what everyone wants and bounce various thoughts people have to get there so common lines can be established and a much stronger case posed as a result. Something vaguely agreeable by a majority enough to get passage. Given the scale of today's general voting base and most participating members, it shouldn't be too hard if the proposition is quite functional.

Critically, anything that happens soon should not be the definitive answer people run with. Some proposals were made. They were made far too quickly. Their proposers should have a look at this thread.

---

Point by point, my primary thoughts and opinions.

Reflection on the identity can be a good starting point for the process. TWC is a huge site; citizens just like the general forum members are coming from different kind of backgrounds. It is natural to assume that the identity of the citizenship will vary as well.

Who are we exactly?

Mechanically very simple. We are acknowledged members who have contributed to the site, as determined by ourselves collectively. We're then given a particular forum where we can discuss our own things, give awards, etc etc - in short, we're people with incredibly low expectations/influence individually who can influence some mildly high profile issues.

It's odd really, there are three critical forms we take, and no badge distinguishes between them.
- We're recognized because we did good. There might have been more on behavior, etc in the past, but I think that's slipped to about nothing.
- We're 'important' unto ourselves, ie, a citizen active on matters of internal awards, who spends a lot of time in the curia without influencing much outside of it. The main reason probably boils down to 'for fun'.
- We're instigators of change, using Citizenship as a cassus belli to give back to the site through bigger things such as our proposals, key discussions and magistrates.

Some people may have lost the way in those things, some might see overlap, some might see themselves as not fitting at all. I'd say it pretty accurately represents a modern citizen, even if the latter in recent times is weak.

What is our role in any of this?

- We add people to our own ranks, offering position in the following while recognizing them for site contribution.
- We give various awards. Some rather significant.
- We appoint the flexible portion of the Tribunal.
- We have some vestiges of past ability to propose and vote on site matters.
- We're supposed to maintain standards for behavior that hold Citizens to higher expectation, ideally promoting sitewide civility.
- (see dac thread) We're occasionally still considered able or responsible to work towards institutional change up to and including the Terms of Service.
- We host multiple historical sections documenting or attempting to instigate change in the site.

Why do we exist? What difference we make?

On the one hand, we're simply recognition with no expectation for more. On the other, we have the opportunity to be much more. In times past, we were much, much more. It has eroded over time. Our net difference, I would say, is dwindling in significance. But it's not entirely the fault of the system internally even if its efficiency is often questioned.

It is good also to consider if the answers to above questions apply to TWC in general. Note that constructing any sort of identity this way will only help building up the base of the reality; there are much more to it, but it could help in building purpose to our actions.

At the most fundamental level, it is important to consider that TWC's strength is and has often lied in its subcommunities. TWC simply 'banding together' has a long way to go between the Writing Center core, the extensive DD core, the hotseaters, the little competitions, and other sections at various states of activity. I'd even argue there is a 'concern core' for the Tribunal and Curia without much function elsewhere. There is of course high overlap between them, but what makes most of what I listed click is the individual processes. Some are stable, others are dwindling and have big issues on the horizon.

At one point I sought to address things section by section, but that really leaves the issue that follows with this question - TWC is still a glue to all those things, and people aren't leaving because of them in specific so much as there are various things about the site in general that turn them away. Speaking of them may just knock at symptoms, and yet, knocking at those symptoms would certainly be a boost to start with.

Yet again, as many of the troubles are technical or fundamental in nature, and we have no truly technical staff or owner active on the site, anything truly fundamental, the likes of which your question here tries to hit, is impossible to achieve. A site is guided by its owner or delegated top entities. Without their involvement the rest is certain to eventually flounder, as a site is not a collective democracy, not when run right.

Thus, the best we can do is come up with relatively temporary initiatives for what we can live with. Our impact on the rest of the site lies on the open blessing of those who lead it. With the top visionary absent for some time (who himself struggled to give purpose to the Curia), the next up lies on all active hex. The ones with the greatest agency in this would appear to have their own problems to handle. The ones who are active otherwise seem unable to provide such leadership or guideline. That is a very big issue to me. Without some resolution, everything we do here, including discussion on things like vision and identity, will be incomplete.

One may say that us discussing without such people will still get us pretty far. Sure. I don't discount an internal resolution to the curia that involves the currently active staff. But I do think that we are destined to be a bit circular and incapable of going the full distance until we are made whole in the highest levels. I think coming up with a decision now and proposing it to hex who either can't do anything, not really or hex/owner coming back later who just get bombarded with input at the start isn't going to get far either. For example, when ged comes back, I have no intention of pressing things for some time. He needs to look over these discussions. He needs to come up with his own opinion. He needs to see where we're coming from, and he needs to form a picture of his own using whatever merits you, I, everyone else can offer, and then he can look at where we are down the road. There is an incredible amount of catch-up for a top-level member of staff at this point, including matters beyond the Curia.

What value do we bring to citizens and TWC in general?

- The bling of badge, the only common non-staff badge for contribution where you can truly do your own thing and, if constructive, be awarded on that thing's own sake. Sometimes, of course, this recognizes staff for their own sakes too. But it's something of a median - you did something very well, ergo you earned this, but in being this you have the stigma of also being something more, though it's what you make of it most of the time.
- A place of, if nothing else, entertainment unto itself. Some are tired of it, others can't get enough.
- (potentially) A fair sample of active and constructive members that can be lead to give ideas on matters in one of the few sections that try to bring them all together in constructive discussion. Ideally, a bigger picture comes of this mesh of opinion as many angles are explored with different views.
- We make people go 'oh, huh, they recognize me' when we give awards.
- In truth, I'm not sure what the net gain is of magistrate by Curia over magistrate by, I dunno, hex vote. There's arguments for it, but they don't seem strong enough to me, aside from a very tiny amount of 'see member base, you can influence this!'.
- We intrigue people with a system that, if nothing else, keeps the wheels turning, thus keeps people caring until the wheels spin out. Along the way perhaps the above is given time to shine.

What Curia/TWC should be like in the future?

Though I believe the fates of both are entwined (or at least, incredibly uncanny), what results for both of them are different things in my mind.

For the Curia it is a two part equation. First being, what do I vaguely want. Second, what could actually happen. I require more detail for the latter, thus I cannot tell you what the Curia might look like in the end aside from a few paths.
- With admin and majority curia input, the things that don't contribute much anymore are overthrown or overhauled.
- Citizens are given and explicitly take opportunity to address wider site problems in fairly guided discussion with administrator input. Not little things that can be done in the Q&S, but, per this thread, matters of vision and feature where participants can and will leand themselves to making things happen, either through their branch of staff, promotion, or whatever means are in their court.
- Contributing non-citizens are given reason to have citizenship, to accept what they deserve, with a system that does not straight up alienate or blame them for skepticism.
- Refreshed, renewed. Approachable to other member inputs, a guide in how to contribute to the site.
- Instead of ignoring our possibilities, we take them.

There's a very strong sense of 'burn it all' that I believe misses out heavily on potential, but if downscaling is necessary to make stability, I will make the necessary compromises to see a net gain happen over doing nothing. I'm even willing to humor proposals that contradict my vision somewhat, such as Frunk's latest. What I do not humor are the proposals that don't feasibly answer these questions and depend on non-answers to justify their proposition.

But the best course, once again, is seeing as high of a level of staff participating in this as possible, both to ground matters and be party to innovative thinking that may in fact help the site. That, in my mind, entails far greater respect than nothing at all, even if it is cordial disagreement - as long as it's not shooting things down without decent justification.

For the site in general, well, I see something similar...ish?
- The site has a direction. Be it focusing on Medieval 2's modding renascence, appealing to a new generation of Total War, conscious efforts towards both that try not to contradict each other, or leaving Total War as a whole in stagnancy and branching out to other subjects or communities.
- Such a focus does not need to be overwhelming, and can include all sections with a good prospect of life. Hotseating, Writing Center, the competition threads, the dear cesspit that is the DD, everything that is a strength of ours should be prominent in its place, and things that aren't, if not removed, should be tucked away until such a time they can be given the initiative they need to become healthy.
- Dead, dying, decaying forums do not clog up the average user's impression of the platform. Again, by this vague benchmark, everything on the front page should be significant or an active effort to become so. Things should be clean, organized, having a place.
- The site should look relatively new. It should be a little faster, but I find this secondary. It should be an elegant throwback to the old days that is extremely approachable by a modern audience. Even if the index is still left big, it should be left looking quite nice. The subforums shouldn't dig too deep. There shouldn't be too much redundancy. Important information for each area is very clear to find. You can't get everyone, but you can get a lot more folks than there are now. But this requires a technical review and a not-too-small level of collaboration with the various branches of the forum.
- The Discord Server should be a viable place for people to go if Total War Center still isn't entirely what they want, or if the site is down, or any number of reasons. All satellite platforms of TWC should similarly have function. Hello there, TWC YouTube. The more inactive things carry the brand, the more the apathy is going to fester. It is better in my mind to archive the truly dead (not straight up delete, I hate that) than to put it alongside things that are still struggling to continue.
- I should have a green name, because I like green. I wish I had more faith in it while it lasted here. Perhaps, in this hypothetical future, it will be there again, for an effective modding staff certainly wouldn't be unappreciated.

In all things I promote a fairly central discussion to approach the big picture and break it down, because sniping at individual issues and being tireless in addressing innumerable little things will not resolve the broader problems.

What are the future objectives we want to achieve?

One last age, a few years of uptick, perhaps some time lounging at that position, and TWC's final fade from there barring opportunity for more or splinters that carry the torch. I think it has the opportunity for this, but only if the right people take a path to that end. I know this is probably not what you were asking, but I think the above and below do more than enough as these questions, approached in detail, have overlap.

Is the current state of the site driving towards the accomplishment of the vision?

No, at the moment it looks like we're being smothered by a pillow and everything at the moment is the flailing. All well and good, but we should get the damn pillow off, yes? If half our muscles aren't responding and the brain doesn't know what it's doing, we're hardly going to pull it off...

Where can we improve - What are the biggest problems of the site?

- We do not fulfill virtually any of the needs of the Warscape modding community. Our links to it are incidental, built from our legacy more than anything inherent. If we can do terribly much about this, I'm not sure. Not unless we retune the site to do it. And that would be radical indeed.
- We somewhat fulfill the needs of the Medieval 2 modding community. Unfortunately, as seen around the forum these days, that's cracking at the seams. Our structures are inefficient. They are not well maintained. They seem to completely lack guidance. We're moving along, but dated mods with abandoned devs and highly ambitious submods is going to turn into something nasty if a mod like SSHIP decides to become independent, as our ability to woo teams over going straight to discord or moddb is not nearly as strong as it used to be.
- The index isn't especially clean. At this point I don't think it's a matter of reorganizing so much as evaluating some of the things we have that take prominence there.
- Communication in general seems weak. We act in some ways without discussing, we discuss in other places without acting, glue between areas isn't sticking, and the MS, well, that didn't age well.
- No technical staff or owner active, very little possible innovation in the fields that would have the most impact first. Progression on the current proposal dealing with technical things would need to accompanied by signs it's more than a very temporary burst.
- The direction thing above. I reckon that's its own big problem.

What are we doing well - What are the strengths of the site?

- Legacy. Old links, old appeal, resources people find that funnel them to this site and give this site modern recognition even if they aren't appetized to add to it. It keeps us relevant, and that's why we should be especially concerned of options that remove links, especially for things people might actually look for.
- Modern legacy. We are optimally poised to organize information and encourage discussion/innovation on modding. This is mainly on older games, but can be tuned to the newer ones.
- We're roomy. THis can quickly be a disadvantage, but for an ambitious project it's certainly space we can use effectively.
- Still standing advantages of forums as a concept, such as the ability to decently organize the information in a way discord can't do the same, or the mild social advantage of forums not having the immediacy of, again, a place like discord where escalate more quickly in a live room.
- A professional look we can integrate with other parts of the site, such as the wiki and front page if both of those are part of initiatives.

There's probably several more, but I've bogged down by the end of the post, so I'll leave it at this.

[Finlander]

Haha, no worries, I do like your walls of text! Thank you for taking your time to write your ideas here in detail. This will be a great start to the systematic process of improving the site. All inputs and thoughts are needed to get a good understanding of the underlying issues and concerns.

I am not going to write a summary of the main takeaway of your post now, I only want to add something regarding the proposal to remove Curia. Proposals of this sort are literally advocating for a change through breaking down the walls, a revolutionary change. In my ways starting from a scratch is a good option to lead revolutionary change on TWC, but naturally it also causes conflicts of interest in members. Strong leadership would be needed which as you pointed out, may not exist in the current situation.

My take on this thread is that we can still achieve drastic changes and remodeling the system if need be without breaking the wheel. This approach is more moderate in that the aim is to make sense for what is happening, and why. Once there is a goal that the site and Curia wants to strive for, there is legitimacy to take action towards accomplishing the vision.

Indeed, if there is a purpose and goal, I believe there needs to be leadership to drive revolutionary change. I doubt that there can ever be a vision so clear and horde unity so high that it can be accomplished without some conflict/opposition. It will be a process of getting people involved in the process and become drivers of change themselves. Anyhow, it will be interestign to see if this leads anywhere!

Regarding the availability of the staff: we just have to determine what are the things we can do and what we cannot. At the very least, collecting ideas is a good base for guiding the administration and in signaling of wishes for change.

[Finlander]

I have been hoping to generate open discussion on our various views, values and concerns of the site that are required for getting a fact based understanding of the community. The attempt is made to get some genuine initiatives that try to improve the experience using the site. Quite understandably, there probably are many who don't quite feel comfortable sharing all of the thoughts so public. I was contacted by one such a person, the concerns of whom I would like to share here anonymously. Perhaps others might want to have a word privately, too, so there won't be a risk of anyone feeling that their ideas would be castigated for. Please if you wish to share something privately, you can always PM me.

The private message received:

I have been watching things on this website go downhill for quite some time now. It has saddened me to no end. I pretty much stay in the realm of Med II modding, and really care about little else on this website. But I do try and participate whenever possible by voting in everything that there is vote for. But I have seen nothing but hot air fly back and forth amongst citizens worrying about utter B.S. such as the new badge or new award, etc. All this is meaningless if this site is only populated by citizens pretending to run a damn government rather then being a website for modders. If new blood is not brought in this website will become financially infeasible to remain online. What is needed is more people to come to this site and be made welcome here.

This brings me to my point of why in the name of hell was DaC banned? It may not show up immediately but I can guarantee that around 10% of the traffic on this site was generated by DaC. This 10% is not going to come back to this forum and why the hell should they?? It is a pure and utter waste and time for them to do so and they won't be coming back. I have no clue of where GED is or if he was informed of DaCs ban, and I know not how this site is financed but it takes not a brain surgeon to figure out that without traffic this site WILL DIE period. There is no mod on this or any other forum that is copyright protected to the best of my knowledge. Why are the moderators so damn concerned about what a guy who hasn't been around for 7 years, hasn't modded, is unreachable, I can certainly understand if a modder or mod team is still active but it has been seven damn years since KK was last here. In the meantime the DaC Team has been around for at least 10 plus years ACTIVELY working on their mod. If this site is to survive and it is looking doubtful more and more everyday in spite of all the ramblings going on in the curia. This site needs more people not fewer visiting it, it isn't achieving that goal by booting one of the most popular mods of all time off this site. I think I have made my point here.


If the rules are not changed and changed soon then the same thing will happen over and over again as mod teams fall away for whatever reason and their mods will remain untouched because they are untouchable by other modders. Someone other then me should recommend that if a mod team leaves the scene for a specified (2 years, 3 years, whatever) then it is to be considered open source because none of this crap is copyright protected. If people are not having fun here on this site they will leave it and not look back. They are leaving and will continue to leave until there is no one here except people in the mudpit doing what they do best, where they can can all wear their badges and awards with all the pride they can muster, that is until the plug is pulled as it inevitably will be in the not so distant future. Then, who will give a rats ass what rank you were or what awards you have, its not like any of this can be put on a resume, and no one here is getting paid for their troubles.


In closing, I remember hitting this website back around the time that Shogun or perhaps the original Medieval Total war came out, this place helped me keep my sanity when going down range everyday when I actually had life and death decisions to make this site was a refuge. Today it is more akin to an asylum. The decision to ban DaC was pathetically stupid and will have tragic repercussions for this site in both the short term and the inevitable demise of this site. If this were an attempt to punish DaC for making things as simple as possible because of outdated rules, then I can tell you that it didn't, that mod will thrive, this site will decline. Thank you for your time.

Now the point of course isn't make this the site policy commentary thread, or a place to bring out all grievances out. The point is trying to identify the underlying concerns and values of the community. What do people find important to them? Does the site answer to their needs? I wish that we can go deeper than the mere surface of these things.

Although the person in the quote didn't directly answer all of the points in this thread, neither does the text directly state what the vision of TWC should be. However, it is quite evident in these words that currently the value of Curia exists on a rather symbolic level without much relevance in the grand scheme of things. The mod centric attitude is clearly visible, a recent dispute with the site management was brought up and the absence of owner is alarming. It could be that the site lacks direction and leadership. At the last paragraph you can see the attachment for the community and what kind of meaning the site has on a very personal level. Just my take on it but if the future of TWC seem uncertain, it is no wonder there will be strong reactions for any signs of losing the community. People still have an emotional connection to the community and are concerned about the future of the site, i.e. the growth rate.


What I have been hoping is to get more insight in what things the community feel important to them. The knowledge acquired here can serve as a basis for creating a general survey if support for the initiative is given by Hex. With the help of surveys, I hope that we do not only deepen our understanding of the communities views on Curia but also find the points that can improve the entire site.

At the very best, the outcomes could be used to improve the user experience, make better informed management decisions and, at least, folstering the community spirit by finding a common cause to improve the forum. Who knows, maybe it gives of a feeling that the site is not going a downhill but actively pursues to be relevant in 2020.

I hope that we can do something together to tackle the concerns that many seem to have on the future prospects of the site and Curia.

[Lifthrasir]

I'm not as good as Commodus to write such things and will be a lot shorter. I agree with him nevertheless for most of what he wrote, at least for the main lines. Details aren't that important at this stage anymay imo.

For too long, the Curia has been focusing on itself for itself. It has lost its original purpose. I also agree (like most of us I think) that if GED could be active on a more regular basis that would help but at least, there are other things that can be done until this happens. I mean, we have no power on his absence but we can act at different levels.

For a while, some (myself included) think that the Curia is just a kind of award committee for those contributors to the site to be recognized and rewarded. I have nothing against that principle which is not incompatible with other goals/ambitions.

From my opinion, the Curia can allow to join together people from disparate communities across the forums with the patronage and house systems (to re-use Hitai's words). If you look carefully, most of the members have their favorite forum (may be 2 or 3, a few at most) in which they're active. These "sub-communities" don't have any or little interaction to each other. The Curia can be the common link between them and to the site as a whole. So, yes, more patronizations would be good but I also think that more activity to get more members is required first.

I'd also be in favor of a collaboration between the Curia and the Content Staff. The later is suffering of a lack of manpower. I'm also convinced that some members wants to help but more on ponctual occasions rather than inside a staff which can be more constraining for them for various reasons. The Curia could be a kind of support, collecting some basic tasks from staffs and gathering those who want to contribute (citizens and non-citizens) to share the said tasks. That could give some free time to staffs for more specific tasks that only they can do. Staffs keep control of their respective domains and the Curia contribute to the site, its original purpose somehow and unless I'm mistaken.

That's it for now. I might add more later on

[Daruwind]

My short view. The problem is not jsut about Curia...but whole TWC.

Why CA stopped coming here?

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...uzh/?context=3

Q:do CA read feedback from the reddit communities and forums? and speculations and other related content?
A (Mitch_CA):Yes, all the time.And not only Grace is here like I see some people say sometimes, I know most designers read Reddit on a regular basis and quite a few read the forum too. We're often sharing stuff around or shouting across our desks "have you see X post", etc.

Just to address another point which I see on the forums is that "the devs only go on Reddit", not true, it's just Reddit does some things better than a traditional forum. If I post a response on Reddit it rises to the top and everyone sees it which is ideal for the community, if I post on the forum a few people see it and then it gets lost in the pages of the thread so it becomes much harder to validate spending time replying.

Lastly I love a good meme as much as the next person here, and oh boy are there some good ones xD.. but I hope you all keep using Reddit as a means to post serious feedback as well, good or bad it's an awesome tool for us to use year round.

TWC is no longer big enough especially for newer games. No longer relevant but this is also true for official CA TW forums....So the real question how to get back here more people, how to be more relevant, that would bring back CA people, that would in turn keep people here...

Why modders/teams stopped coming here?

Old ones are still here due to inertia but a lot newer teams is not. Radius, SFO...all are moving to Discord, using Patreon. Obviously some teams had issues so moving to their own places with their own rules is beneficial for them. Why be here while there are rules but no advantages for them? Current DAC drama is nice exmaple of that. The problem was known for year and right now we hit Iceberg as Titanic. What we can offer mod teams to want to be here, to stay here....how to interact with Steam, ModDB....

Why people, casual are not here anymore for newer games?
What we are offering them? Information? CA people? Mods? Again, what value TWc is offering?

In my view:
Reddit is mess, big echo chamber for short period of time
Youtube is great for visual promotion but interaction between people, author vs audince is bad
Discord is great for discusing stuff between people, very easy to share pictures, anything....
So what is left for Forums? Discussion here has lower pace, but people are capable of writing thoughtful posts...

I don´t have golden idea how to change TWC but things like sharing...pictures, files, links, it is normal level for forum but in comparison with Discord for example? For example my ideal site would be merge of Discord + Forum at once. Imagine having ability to write post and and the same time having dynamic chat in every thread for example where people can comunicate. Now I know that is like utopia etc, that TWC cannot compete in tech stuff with Discord but then what we should or could offer...

After all stagnation is slow death.

[Finlander]

Thank you guys for the input, it is very valuable for getting things started!

It seems that the forum landscape have changed and the alternative platforms have emerged. All of these options seem to divert the traffic, leading to diminished growth in new members. Now the interest for TW games might be higher than before but also the competition for all this traffic have become greater as well. This is easily seen on the offering of TW guides and anything if you just type Total War to Google.

I may add here is that a possible course of action here to improve the awareness of TWC among the new generation of players: at the moment there exist an organised Content and a community with embedded knowledge that could turn the tide. One of the issues that the site may have is that the site and the content it produces may not have been optimized for search purposes. How many of those Google results led to TWC? Another thing obviously is opening new channels of traffic to the site. Especially now that there is an increased competition for the traffic between different platforms, issues like these becomes more important than before.

It doesn't mean that TWC needs to outbeat the 'rivals' in every corner. A better alternative would be to strategice the efforts and bolster the value of our strenghts. The game is not lost yet, guys!

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Well if this is going to be the place we air everything out, then let's get to it.

What is TWC?

I honestly don't know anymore. Ostensibly it is a Total War fansite, but it's probably fair to say that half the community here doesn't even play TW games anymore - if even they ever did. Some folks might pop on for a game every so often, but a lot of people stick around on this site for the discussions, debates, games and off-topic sections. Yet we also still have a very active modding and hotseating community, which accounts for the other half of the membership. Whilst there is undoubtedly overlap between the two, there remains a large gulf between them. So when we're trying to define what the purpose and identity of TWC is, how can we reconcile the non-TW aspects of the site with its TW roots? As it stands now, it feels like we're a site that pays lip service to being a TW fan forum, whilst tacitly promoting our non-TW sections. A big point of contention is that we've never really seriously tried to bring TW players back to TWC, following the rise of Steam, Discord and dedicated modding websites. So if we still want to be a TW site, a) what are we doing about our reliance on non-TW parts of the site to generate activity, and b) how are we going to compete with other platforms that are providing better services and amenities to TW players and modders? But if we don't want to be a TW site, then what the hell are we going to be? If we lack an identity altogether and just become a chat forum, we will only see membership and activity decrease, because people won't have a reason to come here - not to mention what would be an effective severing of ties with the modders and hotseaters still here. I think this limbo that we're in, where we are supposed to be a TW site, but in actuality we do very little in service of the franchise, is certainly a factor in the site's decline.

I'm not sure I have answers to any of those questions, but I think they are points we should all reflect on. But I'd also like to counter the idea that forums are a dead medium, because I often hear people say that. The idea that TWC is dying because message boards in general have been superseded by more modern mediums of social media has a kernel of truth to it, yet whilst many other message boards have faded into obscurity, many yet are going as strong as ever. Something like 4chan, whilst not really a great example of a 'good' message board or one that we would want to emulate, is nevertheless an example of a message board thriving in modern times. A more palatable example might be the Bolter and Chainsword, a Warhammer fan forum that has a history just as long and storied as TWC's, and is still thriving to this day. This forum survives, in my opinion, because of two key things. Firstly it has dynamic content, where users log on to share their personal miniature painting, battle reports and thoughts on the game. In order to promote their own work and ideas, they comment on those of others first, in a tacit form of quid pro quo, creating in effect a feedback loop that continually generates activity. Secondly, it has regular annual, quarterly and monthly competitions across the whole site, many of which pitting various sub-communities against eachother in friendly rivalry. This serves not only to strengthen bonds between people who frequent the same sections of the site, but also to bring them together with other parts of the site and members therein whom they might not know so well - and, not least of all, actually giving people a reason to keep logging on and checking in regularly. Suffice to say, even if our content is different, I'm sure many would agree there is a lot we here at TWC could learn from this approach.

What is the Curia?

I'll be brief, and save myself and everyone else a meandering trip down memory lane. To me, the best part of the Curia and Citizenship in general is its social function; in other words, I like the houses and the patronage system. I believe it is unique and one of the greatest inventions on a message board that I've ever come across. When someone becomes a citizen, they automatically gain new faux-familial relationships with other members, with parents and grandparents and siblings and cousins. Some might find this childish and inconsequential, but I personally think it is fantastic, and my house always has been and always will be the most important thing to me on this website - as I've said before, you could strip away every medal and rep point from my profile, provided I still kept the de Bodemloze tag after my name.

Naturally, buying into this idea demands a certain level of roleplaying, and for a long time I equated this with the political roleplaying of the Curia. The fact that I was already, in essence, roleplaying as a de Bodemloze meant that it wasn't such a big leap to roleplay as a citizen or Curial officer in a pseudo-government. This, among other reasons, was why I was one of the few people who always supported a return of the CdeC; if we were going to roleplay, we might as well embrace it and go all-out, instead of just doing it halfheartedly. But its become clear that the politicisation of the Curia, the drama it created and its increasing self-interest - arguably all related to, if not born from said roleplaying - has only alienated us from the rest of the site. The fact that Curialists are even a group to begin with is rather shameful in this respect; that we exist solely because of and for this isolated section of the site is actually rather damning if you take a step back and look at it from a wider perspective.

So if a political roleplaying enterprise isn't the way forward, what is? As it has long been clear - despite the protestations of some - that the Curia will never again wield any actual administrative power, what can we do? In my opinion, the Curia should embrace its social function. We should revitalise the House system and use this as a mechanism to generate activity. Instead of being a place where we pretend as if our proposals affect change, where we dole out awards, or where we bicker over the semantics of the Constitution, the Curia should be a social hub that joins together otherwise unrelated sections of the forum. We will never be able to integrate modding with the Mudpit, but we can at least get modders and Mudpitters together in the Curia on the same team, as part of the same family and the same House. If we imbue Houses once again with agency and identity, they can serve to promote the site independently of staff, and without stepping on their toes. Through running regular inter-House competitions, events and challenges, creating and awarding things like House points and badges, and promoting relationships between individual Houses and site sections, we can bring together isolated and unrelated parts of the forum and bond them together in a positive way - creating healthy and fun rivalries that will sustain this website, instead of bitter and cynical divides that will see it killed off.

It is an overly-optimistic and fanciful dream, but that's what I believe is best.

[Leonardo]

I read some posts last night, but was too tired to comment. So, this is my observation about what Curia can do for TWC.

I'm not as good as Commodus to write such things and will be a lot shorter. I agree with him nevertheless for most of what he wrote, at least for the main lines. Details aren't that important at this stage anymay imo.

For too long, the Curia has been focusing on itself for itself. It has lost its original purpose. I also agree (like most of us I think) that if GED could be active on a more regular basis that would help but at least, there are other things that can be done until this happens. I mean, we have no power on his absence but we can act at different levels.

For a while, some (myself included) think that the Curia is just a kind of award committee for those contributors to the site to be recognized and rewarded. I have nothing against that principle which is not incompatible with other goals/ambitions.

From my opinion, the Curia can allow to join together people from disparate communities across the forums with the patronage and house systems (to re-use Hitai's words). If you look carefully, most of the members have their favorite forum (may be 2 or 3, a few at most) in which they're active. These "sub-communities" don't have any or little interaction to each other. The Curia can be the common link between them and to the site as a whole. So, yes, more patronizations would be good but I also think that more activity to get more members is required first.

I'd also be in favor of a collaboration between the Curia and the Content Staff. The later is suffering of a lack of manpower. I'm also convinced that some members wants to help but more on ponctual occasions rather than inside a staff which can be more constraining for them for various reasons. The Curia could be a kind of support, collecting some basic tasks from staffs and gathering those who want to contribute (citizens and non-citizens) to share the said tasks. That could give some free time to staffs for more specific tasks that only they can do. Staffs keep control of their respective domains and the Curia contribute to the site, its original purpose somehow and unless I'm mistaken.

That's it for now. I might add more later on

If I understood you correctly, you are saying that Curia could be a place there hex can ask for volunteers, what Alwyn did here and previously what Flinn have done for the annual site awards, modding awards.

And I agree, because doing that would bring back the original purpose the Curia once had and that's to have a sort of an advisory role for hex. Of course I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

For example, take all the abandoned hosted mod forums, the author or mod team no longer visit TWC, and that puts more burden onto moderation to moderate those hosted mod forums. The solution would be; either remove abandoned hosted mod forum from the main index and move the mod thread to the <TW game> Modifications forum (with a link to the hosted mod forum?) or hex can ask Curia for volunteers to become a LM for a hosted mod forum. Of course hex can also ask in the Q & S forum for volunteers.

HusserlTW is a LM here (ETW) and here (NTW) for his StartPos mods, but in 2013/2014 he joined DARTH VADER at the GameLabs forum. I have all these years frequently monitored these two forums plus also offered limited support on TAL and still do.

- Citizens are given and explicitly take opportunity to address wider site problems in fairly guided discussion with administrator input.

Why CA stopped coming here?

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...uzh/?context=3

I think the reason of why CA stopped coming here has to do with the release of new TW game titles that had a bunch of bugs e.g R2TW, Atilla just to mention those games that could be enough for CA to accept the negative feedback from the community here.



As Lifth said, I too think this is enough for now and will add more later.

[King Athelstan]

While I'm no great paragrapher except when there's a deadline due the same night and I haven't started yet, it's about time I got a reply in here.

I first joined Total War Center back in 2013 just before my 13th birthday, to download the olde Retrofit mod for Medieval 2 as that required an account. Back then, the forum itself meant nothing, as it was merely a means to mods. I believe it still is that for many, especially when it comes to Medieval 2. In later years the simplicity of the Steam Workshop and the reduced moddability of the newer total war games have made TWC see a steep decline in the modding fora. It's bound to take a hit from the removal of Divide and Conquer as well, but that has been a long time coming. But I digress.

While I've had spurs of activity since joining, I've only been truly active in the latter years, and thus I have missed out on what many would call the heydays. Heck, I was probably doing stuff back then too, but I don't remember that, I was too young. I still feel I am comparatively young, especially when seeing old figures I've looked up and though "Wow, that guy is cool" now debate and talk on an equal level. Growing up and meeting your idols, facing the truth and seeing decline is hard, for some more than others. I'm going to relate to this on a personal level here, so feel free to skip a bit. Total War Center has been a big part of my life for a long time. In many ways I feel it's something I've grown up with. I've for long struggled with a sense of belonging. I wasn't bullied at school, I had friends and all that. However, my father passed away from cancer when I was 9, just before my tenth birthday. I have two younger siblings, the youngest who was just a year old at the time. As so, the entirety of my brilliant mothers focus has been on us, and she's done an amazing job. But one can only do so much, and in TWC I found people to talk to, a distraction, something to put my mind to. Whether it was losing horribly in hotseats or talking about the deeper issues of my life (I was 14 when I posted this, just a month off being 15).. Total War Center has sort of been a rock, and while it started out as a palce to find mods it has evolved into so much more. I came for the mods, and stayed for the community as I have no doubt many others have. I still find solace and comfort in the friendly attitude, thought-provoking posts and deep companionship. I'm 19 now, I've started uni and my life has come oh so far since I first joined TWC, but it's always been there. If that makes any sense.

However, the community is on the decline, the membership is lowering and while I am oh so ever fond of the members, the mods, the discussions, it is on the decline. There's fewer people visiting, fewer people registering and fewer people participating. It is a worrying tide that must be turned. How exactly, I can't answer. I don't have any key or any grand solution, and I'm not the greatest idea-mean either. It is however very much in my mind that TWC needs to attract and modernize. Much of the needed changes, often presented by Commodus would require GED-level tech access, so one can only do so much. TWC has to become more promintent in search results for one, it is often that I find it on the second page of google when searching for things. And I never look on the second page of google for anything. Rapid-fire instant-response mediums like Reddit and Discord have seen enormous growth the past years, and TWC has the potential to grow there. While there are many already well-established discord servers there's potential for the TWC to shine and foster mutual growth for both a Discord server and the forum. TWC needs to attract more attention, more drive. Whether this is through new competitions, new initiatives, advertising remains to be seen.

After all stagnation is slow death.

This is precisely my worry. And while TWC has plenty to offer and I love it, it needs to expand.

And so we come to the role the Curia plays into this. While growing up here so to say, the badges have always been impressive and a means of "Wow, those guys are important". When I became a Citizen I was deeply honoured. Sure, many may not think much of it these days, but seeing 28 people vote yes and the number of stated supports still almost brought a tear to my eye, it was recognition of what I had done and a feeling that I was part of something bigger. The Curia has been a place for me to meet people from all across Total War Center, it's the core where everything comes together and makes it unique. Much as Hitai says, the social aspect of it is brilliant. While we're all strangers on the internet here with little idea of who the other person on the other side of the screen is, I still believe there's a multitude of people I can consider to be friends. Citizenship is something that brings people from all over the board together, it represents a closer community anyone should aspire to join. It's both a reward and a drive.
The Curia should be that. The wise and grand minds of TWC coming together to provide guidance, brainstorm and come through. Most of the people posting in the Prothalamos are citizens, or ex-citizens who still feel like they're part of the "core" community.
I believe the Curia should provide a drive and strive for improvement, always. If it hadn't been for the Content Job Noticeboard I wouldn't have been in Content Staff right now. The site awards given by the Curia are great, and helps foster the community spirit. We're all members of Total War Center who wants to improve the site and care about the community.

It is not the "citizen" badge that makes us who we are. Our posts, thoughts and actions do. The Citizen badge however marks that we have done something. The Curia has potential. Sure, Hex can veto anything and everything and the Curia might not hold any real "power" over the site, but it still holds Total War Center together. It should look to contribute where it can, come with ideas to benefit the site and community as a whole and be a hallmark of action. In reality, we are all just random people behind computers. Why even care? Because it matters to us. We care, and TWC has given us so much. I feel honoured to be able to give back, and I hope many others do to. Total War Center has a proud legacy and has vast resources for past projects, but I worry we end up at a stage where no one will have any use of them and TWC ends up dead.

Anyways that should be enough sentimental nostalgic rambling from someone who could barely walk when the site was first made. If TWC can evolve and prosper, perhaps someone who can barely walk now will be in my place in the future. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[Frunk]

My take on identity: Citizenship applications, awards proposals, and Magistrate elections. If a Curator is needed to do the necessary janitorial work of making polls, editing annals and moving threads, then it's fair they are part of that, too.

I think value is a great question. I think where the Curia has gone wrong, and continues to, is in trying to be or wanting to be the centre of attention, or that it has some grand relevance to the site and all or the majority of its members. The fact is, most members, Citizens included, don't care for the Curia, and thus any attempts to make the identity of the Curia any more complex than an awards-giving body and a convenient way to elect impartial Magistrates, are always doomed to fail - period.

I also think that, in terms of vision, the Curia has never been able to leave well enough alone, so to speak. What is wrong with simply being an awards-giving body? Awards and recognition are pretty big aspects of the site generally. The Curia doesn't need to be the reason for people to visit TWC on its own. If someone isn't interested in TW itself any more, or in debating, chat, or the other activities here, then they'll inevitably drift away. Having an action-packed Curia, with the drama to boot, has never kept anyone clicking back, or not for long, at least. The opposite may be more true.

I agree with Lifth on many points. I think the Curia would serve the site better, though if it allowed itself to give away the idea that things need to be done and achieved "in the name of the Curia". Why collaborate with Content Staff, when we can simply stop pretending that we are a cohesive, organised body, and simply volunteer individually to join Content (which is, last I checked, at the very least more cohesive and organised than the Curia)? This very thread is a perfect example, conveniently; some great ideas and suggestions for the site, but we are still talking about things in the context of the Curia. There's nothing stopping anyone mobilising common interests in any part of the site, namely Questions & Suggestions, liaising with staff directly (rather than here, where "staff" are reluctant to visit in their "staff contexts") and going from there.

The Curia's desire to be the saviour of TWC is precisely why it never will.

[Finlander]

It has been very interesting to read all the answers here, thank you all for contributing!

No surprise here that there are quite a few diverting ideas on the meaning of Curia, what the community makes out of it. It’s often described as a symbol of recognition, a social function or a platform for brainstorming. At the same time, the place is often seen to be inclined to elitism, unnecessary drama and pettiness.

People want to help of goodwill but at the same time lack the power to make a difference or find better ways to contribute. People want to feel being part of a community, but the community is scattered. Curia as the awarding body seem the no-brainer to the most people that I have talked to, but I hear often that the proposals made have declined drastically over the recent times. What is left for Curia actually? Is it just the slow decline of TWC in general; in that case how to make the site itself more relevant for the community? Or is it that people just generally are no longer interested in Citizenship and building a community here? Then the role of Curia should probably be redefined to make its value coherent to this age.

Just a quick reality check question: Sometimes Curia is described as the meeting hub that connects the various sub-communities of TWC. Do you feel that this is an accurate description of Curia? Do you feel being part of the community yourself?

[Akar]

Just a quick reality check question: Sometimes Curia is described as the meeting hub that connects the various sub-communities of TWC. Do you feel that this is an accurate description of Curia? Do you feel being part of the community yourself?

I don't know if this was addressed specifically at Frunk or if it was meant at the general public, but I definitely think this is accurate.

[Frunk]

I don't know how the Curia can possibly be described as a meeting place for sub-committees at all. What are the sub-committees and whereabouts in the Curia are they currently meeting?

[King Athelstan]

Just a quick reality check question: Sometimes Curia is described as the meeting hub that connects the various sub-communities of TWC. Do you feel that this is an accurate description of Curia? Do you feel being part of the community yourself?

Very much so - there's people from Hotseating, modding, debating and writing and various aspects of the site all coming together and interacting in the Curia, which they wouldn't had it not been for its existence.

[Lifthrasir]

^^ Seconded

[Daruwind]

I would say it little differently. Curia is really not saviour of...world or TWC but if nobody does nothing, we are still on diclining trend. So just maybe if anybody does anything, it has at least chance to change something. It doesn´t matter who will do the first step...if it helps...

[Flinn]

Very much so - there's people from Hotseating, modding, debating and writing and various aspects of the site all coming together and interacting in the Curia, which they wouldn't had it not been for its existence.

there are other places where people can meet, one is the TD and surely all the Staff departments, but yes I agree that the Curia served and serves well as a meeting place, even though often such meetings are not so pleasant

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

there are other places where people can meet, one is the TD and surely all the Staff departments, but yes I agree that the Curia served and serves well as a meeting place, even though often such meetings are not so pleasant

Now, would you say it has any necessity/positive niche as a meeting place (potentially or otherwise), or happens to be just another meeting place, and an oft unpleasant if entertaining one at that?

[Flinn]

Hard to say for me to be honest, since I never served in the Curia I'm biased toward considering what Staff has to offer superior to what Curia can, could or will always be able offer.

I still remain that the Curia is an important meeting point, and participating in Staff does not exclude participating in the Curia's offices as well (and the other way around); personally I never had issues with that aspect of the Curia, but rather with its useless bureaucracy and the so called "higher standards"

If you ask me that I would get rid of the Curia, my answer is no, since I still value it the most as an awarding body, and I love to put forward worthy members myself; other than this, it sometimes succeeds in proposing interesting things for the site (like the PotF competition), but for the rest it's focused on itself and it results interesting, for the most, to those who are appealed by political RPG and rhetoric, which I'm not

edit: I think it's worth to be more specific: I don't mind what the Curia is as long as it is also an awarding committee and I'm fine with having pages and pages of proposals which end up in nothing or only concerns the Curia, I'm simply not interested in that myself and if one very 100 proposals becomes something good for TWC, then even better.