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Thread: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

  1. #61
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If citizenship is not value as is, creating citizen lite won't fix it.
    Quite right, because there is no way to fix it. Let's stop trying to add value where this is none to add. Citizenship applications, awards proposals, magistrate elections; that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Repeal Order 66!
    Good luck with that.

  2. #62
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    @Lifth: I can't see how the Curia could possibly become the same sickly old man that it is now, without a Constitution, in-fighting, undefined and ambiguous "higher standards", referrals, elections for un-needed offices, and other stuff that has always gotten in the way of giving people awards. Even if we don't remove old Citizenships, getting rid of everything but that which we need - Citizenship applications, awards proposals, and magistrate elections - we'd be much better off.

    The Constitution and the rest is superfluous (i.e. pointless), and can be removed without much protest, if the last 20 posts of this thread are anything to go by.
    So your proposal doesn't need to be done. Just stick to this one then.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Repeal Order 66!
    Perhaps. But at least, I'm getting involved in the system, to know and understand it instead of simply deciding to kill it.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  3. #63
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    My dear friend, no proposals need to be done!

    But, sure, it sounds like there is at least some merit in my idea to remove all the bloat, and no obvious opposition to that half of it.

    I'll let this thread sit here for a day or so before I think about making my own proposal, to give others a chance to read and reply from different timezones.

  4. #64
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    I have not thought much about this (I am tremendously busy trying to do absolutely nothing during the quarantine), but what about the patricians keeping their citizen badges and being the ones who, in something like the new suggested open system, restart the citizenships? (I am assuming that the patricians are all those who have some large award). (would any patrician be interested in all this?).

    Edit: not sure if right now Hexes are ignoring another stupidity from the curia or talking about it and wondering wtf. Any feedback?
    Last edited by mishkin; April 14, 2020 at 08:10 AM.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    I, for one, understand that resetting Citizenship would be a dealbreaker for some, though I do believe they are missing the point and also the positives that could come with it. mishkin paints something of an idyllic picture similar to what I have in mind.

    As for "converting" old Citizenships to an award, that is quite easy to do, and current Hex can easily add new awards, if we insist upon giving another set of pixels to members who no longer grace us with their presence to go with the umpteen amount they already have, as mishkin points out.
    Conceptually, such a conversion is very simple. Creating the difference and applying it individually is very easy. It's applying it across the board evenly that may be trouble, as there's quite a few citizens, and so I have to consider what may be adequately done with the presumably limited effort to spare in considering the execution. That said, if doing it manually is simple enough and time economic for implementation, so much the better.

    I lean towards this because people apply quite a bit of meaning to the old legacy of Citizenship even if it's just the recognition you were of some use to the site in some capacity. I think people might just not be posting their opposition to the other parts yet and this stands out as the biggest nope. There would probably need to be convincing on all levels. Yet, the opposers can correct me if I'm wrong, it would seem to me that the main issue is the outright deletion of the legacy and recognition. It's one thing to change the institution, another to change the basic level of credit it gives.

    Based on your suggestion I've mulled over the idea of citizenship itself being a more active volunteer role to contribute around the site and to also participate in committees hosted by hex, plus the ability to get into the magistrate title and vote for awards. Rather than be the acknowledgement of contribution itself, its new purpose could be to band together people who want to participate in these features. There'd be expectation of activity and setting an example, and users could be given awards for their service in this if they fall off/no longer wish to contribute. People's deeds that would get them citizenship would give them a basis for joining this group. Their contributions specifically could be acknowledged through other awards. Moderation would be handled by a very skeleton staff, perhaps the Consul and aides alone, and/or site moderation when there's poor conduct.

    A legacy award to give to old members, along with an offer to rejoin the active role when able or desired. Said members would get their recognition and not have many hoops to jump getting into the affairs if they wish to. People who deserve the award but don't want to contribute can get that badge by itself, to preserve that aspect the same as it always was in a constructive way. What happens in the proth would be merged into a more streamlined proposition/vote structure for things in the scope of the curia, with true site influences being directed to the Q&S or by staff-established committees that learn from the ones that died before. In this way staff can specifically ask for input from a sample of contributing members who actually want to be in a position to get poked for this.

    It's a very incomplete idea and subject to extensive debate on the particulars, but it is a premise that interests me at the moment. Perhaps I should have put this in the discussion thread set in the curia for how it's decidedly not what this OP is going for.

  6. #66

    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    I doubt many of the general membership give a wub about the curia (yes I know this is part of the reason why you're talking about this)

    BUT: amongst the ones that don't care about the curia, are a lot of modders etc that are still here in the rest of the site beyond this little enclave and have previously been 'rewarded' with citizen/artifex badges for their contribution to the site - bearing in mind we're struggling to keep modders as it is, please explain how removing or downgrading their current badge is going to be anything other than extremely detrimental to the site


    If you want to re-organise a 'rank' to give the curia something to role-play with why not do it with the Patrician rank (again) - you could probably easily make the curia patrician posting only - and most of the ones with that only have it currently because they also had bigger medals/ex-staff

  7. #67
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Based on your suggestion I've mulled over the idea of citizenship itself being a more active volunteer role to contribute around the site and to also participate in committees hosted by hex, plus the ability to get into the magistrate title and vote for awards. Rather than be the acknowledgement of contribution itself, its new purpose could be to band together people who want to participate in these features.
    This passage in particular stands out to me (not to take anything away from the rest of your post; suffice is to say that other members are likely to be more concerned with the particulars, than me, for now at least).

    There's clearly a lot of disagreement about what Citizenship is and what it's worth, and whether it's an award, reward, recognition or something more. Personally, I prefer your approach, that people wearing the badge are actually wearing for a reason, and not simply as an award as most do. We have awards for, y' know, awarding people. Is it because the badge is bigger and a different shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    It's a very incomplete idea and subject to extensive debate on the particulars, but it is a premise that interests me at the moment. Perhaps I should have put this in the discussion thread set in the curia for how it's decidedly not what this OP is going for.
    Somehow, I don't think the OP is too concerned about this thread being derailed...

  8. #68
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    @Consul et al.: please merge later if I don't beat you to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by makanyane View Post
    I doubt many of the general membership give a wub about the curia (yes I know this is part of the reason why you're talking about this)

    BUT: amongst the ones that don't care about the curia, are a lot of modders etc that are still here in the rest of the site beyond this little enclave and have previously been 'rewarded' with citizen/artifex badges for their contribution to the site - bearing in mind we're struggling to keep modders as it is, please explain how removing or downgrading their current badge is going to be anything other than extremely detrimental to the site


    If you want to re-organise a 'rank' to give the curia something to role-play with why not do it with the Patrician rank (again) - you could probably easily make the curia patrician posting only - and most of the ones with that only have it currently because they also had bigger medals/ex-staff
    If the problem is not wanting to lose active people; okay, so what if we were to keep it for active members. Expanding on my last post and Commodus' idea, the badge could be for current Citizens, and an award could be given to legacy Citizens. Why? Because quite frankly, if people aren't active, that's their choice and their problem. If they come back, they can quite easily get their badge back, if it means that much to them (more than staying active, I'd hasten to point out). So Citizenship can truly be a reward not just for past deeds, but for staying part of our site that we always lament is dying.

  9. #69
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    My dear friend, no proposals need to be done!

    But, sure, it sounds like there is at least some merit in my idea to remove all the bloat, and no obvious opposition to that half of it.

    I'll let this thread sit here for a day or so before I think about making my own proposal, to give others a chance to read and reply from different timezones.
    That's fair enough
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  10. #70

    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    In light of the reaction to my amendment No one gives a rats butt about citizenship. What are we debating here. its over.

    I SUPPORT.

    Curia/Citizenship This is for you my friend



    Rest in Peace

  11. #71
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    I like it. Not the getting rid of existing citizens, but the rest. Down with that sort of ting..

  12. #72
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    I agree with Mhaedros that the Curia is a cool idea and a distinctive feature which is worth keeping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    I like it. Not the getting rid of existing citizens, but the rest. Down with that sort of ting..
    While I appreciate the work of those who spent time drafting the Constitution, and I wouldn't object to keeping some Curial Officer roles if there's a good case for retaining them, I agree that Frunk's idea has merit.

    Over time, if citizens keep adding rules and roles to the Curia without taking much out, there is a danger of things getting more complicated than they need to be. The more baroque the Curia becomes, the harder it will be to understand (for new people) and to manage (for Curial Officers or whoever is responsible).

    Like Halie Satanus and others, I wouldn't want to remove citizenship from those who have it. They contributed to others having a good time during TWC's considerable history. Let's not discourage modders, debaters, historians, artists, writers and other contributors from remaining (or returning) by taking away something they earned.

  13. #73
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Waiting for Frunk's (and others) ideas, and fearful that this will end up resulting in another curia discussion that ends in nothing, I think I could live with the current (and past) citizens. Actually really happy as long as you get an open and less baroque curia.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 14, 2020 at 12:24 PM.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    I'd like to caution against calling it dead too quickly, as it will take time for enough people to circle through here to get a good sample, not to mention the potential insights of staff and hex that are not yet available aside from Alwyn's appreciated interject. I had a timeline of a few months in mind for this to account for the spread and also give a fair chance for top level staff to show up who would certainly be interested in seeing this before it becomes a 'do this, admins' scenario.

    There is such a thing as too much discussion, but I also reckon there is more to talk about to lend merit to that time.

  15. #75
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    It's just replaced. Think of it like a new Battlestar Galactica.
    Which is the definition of invalidating something. If active member X got his citizenship because he was a moderator for 3 years and did a great job, to get it back he would have to do another stint in moderation even though he may no longer ave the time to do it.

    And let's not even get started on the Artifex. You're literally asking people to redo all their modding work so they can get something that was already their right.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  16. #76

    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    What people seem to fail to grasp is citizenship was a means for the site to payback those that help build the forum. In return they can have input on the direction. That's it. It value is similar to fiat currency. it has value because people demand it. There is no longer any value to citizenship both extrinsic and intrinsic value is gone. We get less than one application per month so citizens themselves do not even value it themselves to pay it forward. We do not even need to consider the other side of the coin.

    It really is crap or get off the pot. If you are not patronizing, then not only do we not get new citizens we also do not create a culture of patronage.

    The sad thing is, this proposal is not needed. The Curia was made irrelevant the minute the prothalomos was removed. It is defacto dead.

    ----

    A reboot, then it would have to be something other than "citizenship."

  17. #77
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Which is the definition of invalidating something. If active member X got his citizenship because he was a moderator for 3 years and did a great job, to get it back he would have to do another stint in moderation even though he may no longer ave the time to do it.

    And let's not even get started on the Artifex. You're literally asking people to redo all their modding work so they can get something that was already their right.
    I think I and seemingly everyone else who has so far been a part of this discussion are ready to move past the idea of removing any Citizenships. Being honest, like I already said, I never expected that to fly, but this discussion at least showed what is, and what is not, important to people.

    But, to respond your points theoretically, no, in my idea, the achievements and the contributions aren't invalidated, just the Citizenship. If the member then wants it back, it's pretty much a rubber stamping; they wouldn't be a need to make any new contributions. That'd be just silly!

    One more thing: Citizenship isn't a right, it's a privilege.

    In any case, let's assume that removing any Citizenships is off the table as far as this current idea is concerned.

    --------

    Anyway, I'll start writing something up, and post a proper thread for it, but there's no rush; keep posting here, for now, if you have input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pike
    What people seem to fail to grasp is citizenship was a means for the site to payback those that help build the forum. In return they can have input on the direction.
    That might have been the case early last decade, but not any more. The "input" of the Curia is of no greater importance (to Hex) than the input of anyone else in Questions & Suggestions. Spending days, weeks or months debating something, and then presenting a signed, voted, and delivered Decision to Hex, is just as likely to be vetoed, mothballed, or declared impossible by Hex, as any casual suggestion in Q&S from Joe Peregrinus who registered yesterday.

    As for the slow rate of patronages, time will tell what happens there. My (perhaps flawed; who knows) logic behind resetting Citizenships was to spark interest in earning/getting them again. I envisioned, perhaps idealistically, a huge wave of members re-applying for their "old" Citizenships, and that that *might* spark interest in the whole thing again, bringing people back to the Curia, even if only briefly, and *maybe* encouraging a few former non-Citizens to get themselves a badge as well, and/or interest in earning and giving other awards as well. Alas, that seems like just a bridge too far, right now. Let's see what the future holds.

    I don't really see how the fate of the Proth is the catalyst for the life or death state of the Curia. I was, obviously, taken aback by the change which happened as part of Order 66 as well, but taking the time to reflect, I don't see the Proth as any better or worse off than it was before, and that probably says a lot more about how things were allowed to get to that point, rather than opening it up afterwards.
    Last edited by Frunk; April 15, 2020 at 02:43 AM.

  18. #78
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Unfortunately you can barely even call the Curia an awards committee these days. Here is the grand sum of the Curia's activity over the past 16 months, since January 2019:

    • 11 Awards were given out
    • 2 Constitutional Amendments were passed
    • 1 Decision was passed
    • 12 Amendments/Decisions were abandoned
    • 12 new Citizens were added
    • 1 unsuccessful referral
    • 1 unsuccessful VonC


    Thats absolutely nothing.
    I told you so. I told everyone this place would be reduced to dust if that crap Order 66 went through and it did. By the support of those who only lurk and never truly participated in these halls anyway. And now we complain on how nothing is really happening.. This part of the forum never ceases to amaze me, truly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    I like it. Not the getting rid of existing citizens, but the rest. Down with that sort of ting..
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    I think I and seemingly everyone else who has so far been a part of this discussion are ready to move past the idea of removing any Citizenships. Being honest, like I already said, I never expected that to fly, but this discussion at least showed what is, and what is not, important to people.

    But, to respond your points theoretically, no, in my idea, the achievements and the contributions aren't invalidated, just the Citizenship. If the member then wants it back, it's pretty much a rubber stamping; they wouldn't be a need to make any new contributions. That'd be just silly!

    One more thing: Citizenship isn't a right, it's a privilege.

    In any case, let's assume that removing any Citizenships is off the table as far as this current idea is concerned.

    --------

    Anyway, I'll start writing something up, and post a proper thread for it, but there's no rush; keep posting here, for now, if you have input.



    That might have been the case early last decade, but not any more. The "input" of the Curia is of no greater importance (to Hex) than the input of anyone else in Questions & Suggestions. Spending days, weeks or months debating something, and then presenting a signed, voted, and delivered Decision to Hex, is just as likely to be vetoed, mothballed, or declared impossible by Hex, as any casual suggestion in Q&S from Joe Peregrinus who registered yesterday.

    As for the slow rate of patronages, time will tell what happens there. My (perhaps flawed; who knows) logic behind resetting Citizenships was to spark interest in earning/getting them again. I envisioned, perhaps idealistically, a huge wave of members re-applying for their "old" Citizenships, and that that *might* spark interest in the whole thing again, bringing people back to the Curia, even if only briefly, and *maybe* encouraging a few former non-Citizens to get themselves a badge as well, and/or interest in earning and giving other awards as well. Alas, that seems like just a bridge too far, right now. Let's see what the future holds.

    I don't really see how the fate of the Proth is the catalyst for the life or death state of the Curia. I was, obviously, taken aback by the change which happened as part of Order 66 as well, but taking the time to reflect, I don't see the Proth as any better or worse off than it was before, and that probably says a lot more about how things were allowed to get to that point, rather than opening it up afterwards.
    You have my sword Frunk. Feel free to bounce the idea off me before you post.

  19. #79
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Simply opposed

  20. #80
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: [Decision] Dissolve the Curia

    Can I get a hell yea for this proposal?



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