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Thread: This and That about the Curia

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    Default This and That about the Curia

    Allow me a rant, if you will. Mishkin, who will inevitably read this, will no doubt be lost as I don't intend to chop down on length. So lets begin.

    It is my opinion that the problem of the Curia cannot be approached in adjustments to its constitution, nor in a short-lived spree of ambitious proposals such as Order 66's attempt to reforge the place or the well meant smaller initiatives recently approaching bits of this and that across the site. To be bold, I would say those efforts are ultimately frivolous, and that's speaking for the best of what I've seen as of late in thoughts, never mind the telling, but not especially productive conversation in the CCT or the entire VonC business. If that's the best we can do, well, that's indeed a sorry state. But I don't think everyone, many at least, want to see it that way. I believe the Curia lacks a vision unto itself. Distinct standards are a mystery; what is standard citizen behavior? It would appear to me that, in the need of everyone we can get, the standard is now 'you're active and not completely controversial, welcome aboard'. We have an apparatus that was built to be an ear to the administration, yet it would seem the administration finds this place an irritation at most, if not a source of semi-regular amusement for its occasional flails. Its powers and influence have waned with the entire site's power and influence waning in the wider series. It is on the brink of clarifying itself as no more than an awards committee; I've seen talks to push for distinctive Curial office to be eliminated and merged into Staff proper, with the rest of its functions largely being taken over in that same way, with its practicality merged in large part with the Q&S. And at this point, there isn't a terribly strong argument against that. I think, of all times, the Curia could certainly have that discussion now, and erode itself into nothingness - because there is no vision, passion, initiative. I don't want to be that individual. I'm a background player at best, better served with either the long game or an actual situation of panic.

    Yet, to me, the panic is here, we just don't want to see it. We're appeased by the little things that show up, while still wandering about in the bigger picture as we're desensitized to the tempting option of consolidating everything and eliminating something that right now, is largely a redundant entity and samey routines and procedures, since again, its strongest argument can be placed in being an award committee, and by no means is its control on that field an exclusive one. Gone are the days of particularly interesting elections, certainly; you almost have to beg someone to do something if you don't have good sports like King Athelstan or Cope to fill the holes. People not caring is a stacking equation, and as we settle in that state, I would tell you that it's only going to worsen as time goes on. I'm willing to bet in the real possibility this thread devolves to nowhere, at most gets a few 'I agree' sprinkled with 'you're dumb and here's why' and that's the end of people's concern, we're just going to go further down, and with the opportunity to change passed away, nothing short of a miraculous Ged revival would stop it. Even then I don't think it would be enough. One user will not fix the site.

    Although, considering the one who theoretically can above all is absent, it just makes this problem several times harder. But not impossible. Allow me to stray from the doom and gloom.

    The Curia has a legacy for representing a higher standard of contribution; if you've truly done something content wise to promote TWC and you have an agreeable outlook, as subjective as that may be individually, you'll get in. Lets be more concerned not just about finding that, but promoting it. Promoting it for ourselves. Discussing things like this very topic, lending additional view to the problem; if you see it, if you don't, clarification or ways to improve things here that aren't disjointed individual initiatives, but are efforts to build up a wider vision - build up the legacy for the curia itself in a better era, omitting things that said era didn't do terribly well. Consider and contribute to the whole, the experience, the things that drive people away for their problems rather than a more middling crisis with ambiguously helpful mid-solutions. I'd say our strength is in community, not routine. If anything, salvation may come through streamlining the routine to an extent in other areas, so the efforts may be used in a direction closer to the path of progress.

    I call on Hex members still active and reading to reverse the trend and promote the Curia discussing things that would otherwise be in the purview of staff. Be open. Say things for what they are, clearly, in places easily found. In transparency we can more collectively attempt to propose solutions. When everything is kept in-house regarding plans, the current situations, what specifically is needed, ambition and initiative, and all is locked up with SND, nobody has a bloody clue what's going on, and a large part of the Curia's potential function is sabotaged. I would say the best suggestions are defined by understanding, and you get that from actual information, not in crapshoots where people hope to hit one of many invisible cards that aren't a red herring. As much as the Curia is responsible for defining itself, those involved with it, who can derive use from it, are responsible in helping as well when a revival in the Curia can lead to revival across the site. It's been a mutual stonewall. Why not end it here, while - I think - we still have the numbers to do it?

    I ask for anyone who agrees to express their will to pursue such things, to discuss a modern 'goal' of the Curia so it is doing things for its own sake in a meaningful direction, rather than simply spiraling out into its many branches of thought as it does now even as other communities sap at the bottom line. I'd like to know who can avail themselves to doing what may be possible now, even with a concerning absence of technical staff in activity and numbers. Given the complete circle Modding Staff followed, clearly some things are possible. For this effort I'd like us to look at two things; where we want to go, and only once that's established, the first priorities in how to get there.

    First, I guess I wonder who cares and just want to make sure I'm not settling this in a very small echo chamber. If so, well, that's answer enough I guess.

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Anyways I agree with what you've posted. I honestly just see the Curia as long-dead though, and there's no point in trying to revive it if the current members have no motivation to do so, and Hex just veto everything anyway.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 11, 2020 at 07:25 AM. Reason: For continuity



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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    We'll have to see if elements of either in any way agree enough to the calls I'm making in the post, as both are indeed the big kickers. If not, well, I guess it's long-dead anyways. Maybe it'll kick up some dust before it's gone.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; April 11, 2020 at 07:31 AM. Reason: pretty sure the licking stuff wouldn't be continuous either

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Lifthrasir, I was under the impression that the Praefects were the Moderators of the Curia, not you. I stand by what I said.

    tl;dr



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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    For your information. And now please, stay on topic. Thanks.
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    If you view the site leaders page, how many current hex members do you recognize that had an active role in the curia supporting, voting and participating in the bills and community here in general by promoting it is a forum for such things? Of them all, I would say Squid, Lolisuck, Hader, pan and GED. Of them all only Hader is relatively active, and I dont think the rest are very interested in the curia (just my opinion). The others either seem opposed or uninterested, again my opinion, but they are also the active ones. So in reality the vision they had for the curia with order 66, may possibly have not been representative of all the hexs in their entirety over the years. That said, they are the active hexs and make these sorts of decisions. In my opinion after Order 66, the jedi order (the curia) was affected. But we can rebuild if we want to. Unless hex vetos things or we are content with mediocrity.


    I'd say the curia can immediately start some useful proposals we all know are necessary going forward, for example Fix the site speed. Either by appointing active technical staff or other means. The curia strength is the fact that many of the sites largest contributors, most active individuals and interested staff members all congregate here to form a committee. We discuss and award others based on what we notice, or initiate proposals. It really should be encouraged here rather than redirected to other areas. But again, the active hex members in my opinion dont necessarily want this (my impression) or want to truly participate here (exception being Hader).

    edit:
    heh, I forgot Abduls recent promotion but of course, he is also active.
    Last edited by z3n; April 11, 2020 at 10:32 PM.
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    I'd say the curia can immediately start some useful proposals we all know are necessary going forward, for example Fix the site speed. Either by appointing active technical staff or other means. The curia strength is the fact that many of the sites largest contributors, most active individuals and interested staff members all congregate here to form a committee. We discuss and award others based on what we notice, or initiate proposals. It really should be encouraged here rather than redirected to other areas. But again, the active hex members in my opinion dont necessarily want this (my impression) or want to truly participate here (exception being Hader).
    As much as I agree with the spirit of your post, I think a proposal that strikes directly at the problem mentioned - even if I think it is an essential target and more fundamental to getting anywhere than anything including the Curia - utterly depends on an active 'very top end', ie, Ged himself or anyone(s) with equivalent agency to make that kind of backend shift in policy as to appoint new staff. And 'fix the site speed' is a very big can of worms I'm not sure the Curia could grasp as a collective given the variables that make it an issue in the first place, not least of which being the sheer age paired with scale of the platform - all quite a bit of talk to get into for something that is not, for the moment, an essential step just yet without considering it in tandem with other technical subjects.

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    And 'fix the site speed' is a very big can of worms I'm not sure the Curia could grasp as a collective given the variables that make it an issue in the first place, not least of which being the sheer age paired with scale of the platform - all quite a bit of talk to get into for something that is not, for the moment, an essential step just yet without considering it in tandem with other technical subjects.
    From a user point of view, the site functioned perfectly fine when a few plugins were "broken", which didn't seem to affect the main site functionality. Whatever these plugins are, I'm not sure they're worth the effect they have on site speed.

    utterly depends on an active 'very top end', ie, Ged himself or anyone(s) with equivalent agency to make that kind of backend shift in policy as to appoint new staff
    That's true, but at least we can bring full attention to the lack of active technical staff and people with the capability to effect any real sort of change to the site and its functionality. Highlighting an issue like that and asking for change is better than simply waiting years as we have in the past for other things to be done.
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    From a user point of view, the site functioned perfectly fine when a few plugins were "broken", which didn't seem to affect the main site functionality. Whatever these plugins are, I'm not sure they're worth the effect they have on site speed.
    If a good list is available, it could be reviewed. I think the path here is to evaluate each aspect and see what it does, or if we're just keeping it to keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    That's true, but at least we can bring full attention to the lack of active technical staff and people with the capability to effect any real sort of change to the site and its functionality. Highlighting an issue like that and asking for change is better than simply waiting years as we have in the past for other things to be done.
    Put that way, I certainly can't argue against.

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Ged himself or anyone(s) with equivalent agency to make that kind of backend shift in policy as to appoint new staff.
    To my knowledge there is no need to appoint a new staff as the Technicial Staff already exist. Although, only 3-4 people are fairly active.

    GED
    Squid
    pannionan (not entirely sure if he is still involved in the Technicial Staff or not)
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    However, I wish the Technicial Staff could be more active than they have been in the past.
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    To my knowledge there is no need to appoint a new staff as the Technicial Staff already exist. Although, only 3-4 people are fairly active.
    You and I see 'fairly active' as different things, I think.

    Note, if someone shows up in this thread to tell me off from the list, I will legitimately be elated, and I would prefer a resurgence over a replacement. But lets look at what we're dealing with, based on the people you assert as the 'fairly active' membership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Augustus Lucifer
    Mate, if two years since check-in is 'fairly active', I should have crashed TWC with my activity in the same period by now. I liked this guy, too, the shame of not seeing him around has grown even if he has no reason to so much as know of me. Fairly active? I'm pretty sure life caught up and it hasn't let go, at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    pannionan
    He's not two years off, but it ain't in the past 6 months, and even the slowness of TWC ought to count a good year's gap and counting as being outright inactive. The last substantive bit was when the word "retard" was being discussed in relation to why people use it. It was a mildly interesting conversation. From there I presume life caught up and hasn't let go, because there hasn't been a hint of activity since.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Squid
    This would be the most active entity with tech access, even if that activity is best described as 'quite infrequent' instead of a strained 'fairly active'. The last bit was an interjection to add... streamables. I'm not putting the fellow down, but this is the most non-owner technical contribution outside of staffing stuff seen in public out of the entire top end since... well, a long time, since the last active technical initiative was the owner himself mid last year, and I count that as an exception when considering an actual staff team for the purpose of technical stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    GED
    A technical staff is something a little different from the owner himself, in my opinion. I have thoughts on an owner's ideal involvement, and yet, the ideal tends to never be the truth when life catches up and things happen - and in the fundamental capacity of an owner (direction-giving aside), all is at least being maintained.

    Disclaimer aside, this isn't a sign of a healthy, budding staff either. All we have, although it is not to be understated, is check-ins with the administration (presumably) for the site not going under completely. It's enough to keep the lights on, but keeping the lights on doesn't switch bulbs, fix rusting out equipment or repaint the walls. Fairly active, ie, a healthy branch where that term can be used, should be more than what appears to be the owner keeping the lights on... and the rest simply not being very relevant at this point. In my mind, the branch is afflicted with a common problem across the very idea of staffing. People with long, proud legacies simply not being able or willing (perhaps understandably) to carry on in an active capacity, either for a stretch or permanently. Generally, this means stepping down or at least finding people who can ensure the roles are populated. Obviously that's a case that is tricky to make for a site owner (I don't know of anyone, myself included, who could possibly step in those shoes, certainly with how little true data there is on things as they stand for the membership) and I am not keen to simply rip out established members in TS for new upstarts, and yet, I think we should acknowledge this is actually pretty bad in the bigger picture. The site needs something to counterbalance the downtrend, not keeping the lights on for something that's losing steam and incapable of making more.

    It would seem to me that at best, every single member of Technical Staff, if not gone, is bogged down by life to the extent that devoting attention to the site is not feasible in an active capacity. It would be ideal to me if one, if not two members of that list came back more regularly, even Ged alone. Yet it also seems to me that some addition who can pencil push the QoL business for both Hex decisions and for basic site upkeep would be necessary - importantly, someone who can be regularly reached, not who is a mystical being to the site membership and a difficult approach through alternative contact.

    This is nothing personal against any of them. I understand they all have lives. Yet there is a limbo and inactivity here that remains regardless of understanding and the considerable role that Ged is filling by at least keeping the server running. Perhaps adding someone to contest this image would help brighten spirits until such a time an old guard can check in a little more in a way we can tell something's happening.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    To my knowledge there is no need to appoint a new staff as the Technicial Staff already exist. Although, only 3-4 people are fairly active.

    GED
    Squid
    pannionan (not entirely sure if he is still involved in the Technicial Staff or not)
    Augustus Lucifer


    However, I wish the Technicial Staff could be more active than they have been in the past.
    y2day last activity October 12, 2018.
    August last activity July 27, 2018.
    Pans last activity May 31, 2019.
    Ged last public post July 01, 2019.
    Squid last public post February 14, 2020.


    About Squid, from what I recall, his wife complains if he spends too much time doing things for TWC. GED of course is quite busy himself.


    We do desperately need to get the site speed fixed, even if it takes pruning plugins we could live without as a userbase. It's a genuine problem.
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    You forgot Flinn guys
    He's gonna be upset when he returns from his quarantine

    I'd say that even if Hex don't post/act publicly in the Curia, it doesn't mean they're inactive here. Just have a look on who votes during citizen's applications (vote are public). I think that most of the time they just remain discret.

    I've tried but failed to find an old post from Pannonian (if my memory serves me well) explaining how he basically managed to create/organize a more "professional" content staff to take care of that task and how it basically took over from the Curia which remained profane - I'd say.
    I wish I could find that post again. My memory is not foolproof.

    Anyway, I agree that an active technical staff would help on many issues already. On the other hand, people involved in it would need to have full trust from GED and Hex due to their position and possible interaction with the site basis (and assuming that they're qualified for such task of course). Not an easy equation actually
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 12, 2020 at 02:41 AM. Reason: typo
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    You forgot Flinn guys
    Flinn when he gets back from quarantine

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I think that most of the time they just remain discret.
    I think where most people stand, as well as myself, is that it would be nice to see a message from them every once and awhile. Whenever the forum crashes for a few days, it would be nice to actually know why, or at least to hear something back from them. Even if it's just "we don't know, but it's fixed for now sorry". At this point, even the smallest amount of communication feels like a lot.

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    You forgot Flinn guys
    He's gonna be upset when he returns from his quarantine
    If nothing else, a spree of upset will spice things up. Support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I'd say that even if Hex don't post/act publicly in the Curia, it doesn't mean they're inactive here. Just have a look on who votes during citizen's applications (vote are public). I think that most of the time they just remain discret.
    I'm sure a portion of those still active do. There's evidence of this and one semi-regularly these days breaks his silence.

    But that's kinda what I'm saying, instead of lurking, instead of hoping someone to say something smart they can take, they should be proactive and facilitate the effort with understanding themselves. The reconciliation needed here is a two-way street. I think a lot of the problem of people putting themselves forwards boils down to burnt faith and no clear thing they're getting into. Participation is all well and good and a step up, but in the scope of this, perhaps not enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Anyway, I agree that an active technical staff would help on many issues already. On the other hand, people involved in it would need to have full trust from GED and Hex due to their position and possible interaction with the site basis (and assuming that they're qualified for such task of course). Not an easy equation actually
    Filling the parameters might take a bit of work. But the looking is the start, at least. And of course, there's no point to it until there is a more full Hex available/seeking to give trust and a Ged himself, who's probably more central to the process anyway. One step at a time, but to get further, the site's gonna need to take some rather difficult steps. If there isn't the energy nor means for it, yeah, it probably won't happen.

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Filling the parameters might take a bit of work. But the looking is the start, at least. And of course, there's no point to it until there is a more full Hex available/seeking to give trust and a Ged himself, who's probably more central to the process anyway. One step at a time, but to get further, the site's gonna need to take some rather difficult steps. If there isn't the energy nor means for it, yeah, it probably won't happen.
    I get your point. GED is the key in my opinion. As long he's unable to be more involved for the site, progress will be slow if any. Note that I don't blame him. He must have good reasons.
    Anyway, why not starting to ask Content Hex to know in which areas the Curia could help? From there, committees can be made with the interested people. There's actually nothing new in this idea. It used to be that way. Basically, the idea now is not to get the Curia interferring in Content affairs but rather to get the Curia offering services to the Content where it feels it's necessary, a kind of freelance/consulting if you like
    For example: the Modding Staff has been "dismantled" as said here. We have several former member of that staff active in the Curia. LolIsuck is also back. Make a group of people willing to help. Contact lolIsuck about what is needed (things like listings, contact, update, whatever...). Organize and share tasks among that group. lolIsuck remains in control. That would be basic and simple tasks but if it can save time and help regarding the manpower, that's already a step forward.
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Small correction to the above, I didn't do hex enough credit for the most recent while - two semi-regularly post their bits and two more are more incidentally involved, though one is currently absent and the other doesn't really partake in the curia directly (is in curia-related circles though). And obviously a member of hex serving as Consul is substantial, although not in the function defined above (outreach 'n such).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I get your point. GED is the key in my opinion. As long he's unable to be more involved for the site, progress will be slow if any. Note that I don't blame him. He must have good reasons.
    Anyway, why not starting to ask Content Hex to know in which areas the Curia could help? From there, committees can be made with the interested people. There's actually nothing new in this idea. It used to be that way. Basically, the idea now is not to get the Curia interferring in Content affairs but rather to get the Curia offering services to the Content where it feels it's necessary, a kind of freelance/consulting if you like
    For example: the Modding Staff has been "dismantled" as said here. We have several former member of that staff active in the Curia. LolIsuck is also back. Make a group of people willing to help. Contact lolIsuck about what is needed (things like listings, contact, update, whatever...). Organize and share tasks among that group. lolIsuck remains in control. That would be basic and simple tasks but if it can save time and help regarding the manpower, that's already a step forward.
    Absolutely. The things we need most can't be done now... yet there is a good bit that can be done now that would help set groundwork. Mutual outreach between staff and curia; the overlap is sufficiently strong that the Curia, if responsible enough in its contributing membership, can certainly add something. The committee functions here might just do something. We could brainstorm thoughts for approaching the less active branches, help the struggling ones and see where to go from there. Modding Staff is an old topic we probably could use a full blown structure to address. It was always informal, and then it moved behind the scenes. Perhaps we should try again, less privately.

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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    That's my idea as well. z3n and Leonardo were part of the Modding Staff. Their input would be welcome and useful I'm not sure if there's another former member of that staff still active in the Curia but if yes, he's also welcome to share his input

    Edit: see this request Another opportunity (unfortunately, I've never purchased that game).
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 12, 2020 at 06:28 AM.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  19. #19
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    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    Pike and VZ were among it, for the record's sake. I dunno how much either would like to contribute, but I welcome both for this.

  20. #20

    Default Re: This and That about the Curia

    I am not sure what you want from me. But the only way to revive the Curia is to create a committee and have this committee identify and decide if citizenship is warranted. There aren't enough citizens willing and able to patronize at the moment. Still have that option though. This is how it was done in the beginning Citizens would often suggest members for citizenship and the committee would review and vote. Quick and easy.

    Citizenship needs to go back to which it was intended.

    Then return the proth back to the Curia.

    Lastly, make it clear what a citizen is so that it never becomes self- absorbed elitist.

    Outside of this, the Curia has no future.
    Of course we need an admin to be technical officer. When was the last time Squid was active. More importantly, GED needs to resolve whatever personal issues he has and start showing a damn about the site. Quite frankly, I think there are doen people who care more. I don't think i will bother doing a darn thing until he shows he cares.

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