Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

[Common Soldier]

Do we know this. Witnessed my how many people and appearing in only one version written how long after the fact?

It is often the case from ancient times we might only have one source for an event. We only have Josephus account of Masada, for example, and some historians havd expressed skepticism about thd entire drawing lots thing, since it seems really similar to what happened to Josephus himself, where they drew lots to see who would kill the others before they were captured, and the lack of evidence for mass suicide. You can find lots of examples where we only havs one source for the story of an event.


And the time gap is not as great considering. Christians only decided to write down the stories of Jesus life until after eyewitnesses began to die off due to old age and other factors. The earliest Christians thought Jesus was going to return very soon, and usher in the age, so any written account of Jesus life would be render redundant by Jesus return. It was only when the eyewitnessss began to die off and it started ro look like that Jesus wasn't going to return as soon as thought that we get written accounts (Gospels). The 4 gospels we have now were written while some eyewitnesses were still potentially alive, and all gospels written after all the eyewitnesses were dead were rejected.

In some ways the creation of the Koran was similar. The written Koran was compiled only after a battle which killed large number of Muslims who had memorized the Koran, and some verses were lost. But a major difference with Islam is that from the beginning of Islam there were ruling authorities that could produce an authorize version of the Koran and burn and destroy all other copies of the Koran. 1300 years before Pastor Terry Jones conducted a Koran book burning in Florida, Muslims themselves conducted a Koran book burning under direction of the Muslim supreme religious leader at the time, caliph Uthman. All copies of the Koran except the one authorized by Uthman were destroyed By the time Christianity was in a position to do something similar with the conversion of Constantine, it was too late. Copies of the Gospels had floated around for a couple hundred years, and Christianity had spread to countries outside of the Roman Empire. Even if Constsntine wanted to, he couldn't have succeed in a book burning purge of unofficial versions of the Bible the way Uthman did with the Koran.

By the way, the consensus by scholars is that Mark was written around 70 CE , 40 years after Jesus, and Luke around 80 - 90 CE. The events with Elizabeth would have been about 90 years before Luke was written, but that is still better than for details of Muhammad life. The oldest biography of Muhammad was written by Ibn Ishaq more than a 100 years after Muhammad, and we no longer have that biography, but only edited version quoted by a later writer. The Koran itself contains next to no details of Muhammad's life, other than his name mentioned only a few number of times, and that he had wives (no number or names). There are verses in the Koran that are interpreted as being about events in Muhammad's life, but those interpretations depend on sources outside of the Koran like the Hadiths. And Buddha? His oldest bigraphy wasn't written until around 100 AD, about 400 to 500 years after the life of Buddha. Even for Alexander the Great, the oldest biography of him we have only dates romthe first century BC, anout 300 years after Alexander, earlier biographies having been lost. i

[basics]

You did say it was not your job to save me. You used that argument to run away from providing real references. Still no direct references to Bible about how Jesus is god? Why is it so hard to provide this?

PointOfViewGun,

Asking the question, " Is Jesus God?" this is just one of the replies that came up so rather than double on what Common Soldier has said for speed I take the liberty of showing just one answer as below.

Quote, " Some say Jesus Christ was just a man, or maybe a great teacher. But He was and is much more than that. The Bible says Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn’t just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).

The claims

Jesus claimed to be God. It might be hard to understand how this could be true, but it’s important to remember that God is much bigger and more powerful than we can comprehend. We do know that Jesus said He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). He claimed that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), and that He is equal with the Father (John 5:17-18).

Not only did He claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God. He said He has the authority to judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead (John 5:25-29) and to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7)—things only God can do (1 Samuel 2:6; Isaiah 43:25).

Further, Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers (John 14:13-14), and that He will be with His followers always (Matthew 28:20). The New Testament equates Jesus to the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and in John 16:15, He says, “All that belongs to the Father is mine.”

But where’s the proof?

Claiming to be something, as Jesus claimed to be God, doesn’t make it true. Where’s the evidence that He is God?

Jesus’ identity isn’t based solely on what He says, but on what He does. And He has left a lot of evidence that He is God. That evidence includes fulfilled prophecy and recorded miracles in which Jesus reversed the laws of nature. He also lived a sinless life (Hebrews 4:15), something no one else has done.

The ultimate proof of His divinity, however, was His resurrection from the dead after His death on the cross. No one else has ever risen from the dead on his own.

Did Jesus ever say, ‘I am God’?

If someone said to you, “I am God,” would you believe him? Many people who believe in one God would think the person is blaspheming. Even if Jesus said the exact words, “I am God,” many people would not have believed Him or even heard what He had to say. Yet, He did give us reasons to believe such a claim without using these words.

In Luke 4:8, Jesus says, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'” He said and showed many times that He is the Lord. Jesus says, for example, that He is “the first and the last” (Revelation 1:17, 22:13), which God the Father says in Isaiah 44:6.

But maybe you’re looking for a place in the Bible where Jesus says, “I am God; worship me” in those exact words. If we suggest that Jesus could only claim to be God by saying that one sentence, we might also ask where He says, “I am a great teacher, but not God,” or, “I am just a prophet; don’t worship me.” The Bible doesn’t say that, either.

The good news is that Jesus told us He is God in many different ways! He has made it clear that He and God the Father are one (John 10:30), and says in John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life.” Who else could claim these things except God?" Unquote.

My job as I have been doing is to open out the Scriptures to show the things concerning Jesus Christ's life on earth. This I have been doing for the past 16 odd years. For 37 years I have studied the Bible as well as countless books on it but now at 77 coming up 78 years on the planet my strength is not what it once was. I have suffered four hernia ops, three mini-strokes, an Aortic valve replacement, a pig's valve by the way, the removal of my Gall Bladder plus the addition of having Ankalosing Spondylitis since my twenties and now a little dimentia setting in so perhaps you'll understand why I leave it to the Gospel itself to explain about Salvation which it does far better than I ever could. After all, it is the power of God unto salvation not me although my job is to proclaim it. If you want to destroy me, fine, let it be so, but you cannot destroy the Word of God and there are others like Common Soldier who are fit and worthy to take you on. You see your Allah and Mohammed can never beat God, never amount to the heights of Jesus Christ and have nothing to offer fallen men still in their sin. Jesus Christ is the only Way to Salvation for there is no other.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

Asking the question, " Is Jesus God?" this is just one of the replies that came up so rather than double on what Common Soldier has said for speed I take the liberty of showing just one answer as below.

Quote, " Some say Jesus Christ was just a man, or maybe a great teacher. But He was and is much more than that. The Bible says Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn’t just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).

The claims

Jesus claimed to be God. It might be hard to understand how this could be true, but it’s important to remember that God is much bigger and more powerful than we can comprehend. We do know that Jesus said He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). He claimed that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), and that He is equal with the Father (John 5:17-18).

Not only did He claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God. He said He has the authority to judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead (John 5:25-29) and to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7)—things only God can do (1 Samuel 2:6; Isaiah 43:25).

Further, Jesus says He has the power to answer prayers (John 14:13-14), and that He will be with His followers always (Matthew 28:20). The New Testament equates Jesus to the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and in John 16:15, He says, “All that belongs to the Father is mine.”

But where’s the proof?

Claiming to be something, as Jesus claimed to be God, doesn’t make it true. Where’s the evidence that He is God?

Jesus’ identity isn’t based solely on what He says, but on what He does. And He has left a lot of evidence that He is God. That evidence includes fulfilled prophecy and recorded miracles in which Jesus reversed the laws of nature. He also lived a sinless life (Hebrews 4:15), something no one else has done.

The ultimate proof of His divinity, however, was His resurrection from the dead after His death on the cross. No one else has ever risen from the dead on his own.

Did Jesus ever say, ‘I am God’?

If someone said to you, “I am God,” would you believe him? Many people who believe in one God would think the person is blaspheming. Even if Jesus said the exact words, “I am God,” many people would not have believed Him or even heard what He had to say. Yet, He did give us reasons to believe such a claim without using these words.

In Luke 4:8, Jesus says, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'” He said and showed many times that He is the Lord. Jesus says, for example, that He is “the first and the last” (Revelation 1:17, 22:13), which God the Father says in Isaiah 44:6.

But maybe you’re looking for a place in the Bible where Jesus says, “I am God; worship me” in those exact words. If we suggest that Jesus could only claim to be God by saying that one sentence, we might also ask where He says, “I am a great teacher, but not God,” or, “I am just a prophet; don’t worship me.” The Bible doesn’t say that, either.

The good news is that Jesus told us He is God in many different ways! He has made it clear that He and God the Father are one (John 10:30), and says in John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life.” Who else could claim these things except God?" Unquote.

My job as I have been doing is to open out the Scriptures to show the things concerning Jesus Christ's life on earth. This I have been doing for the past 16 odd years. For 37 years I have studied the Bible as well as countless books on it but now at 77 coming up 78 years on the planet my strength is not what it once was. I have suffered four hernia ops, three mini-strokes, an Aortic valve replacement, a pig's valve by the way, the removal of my Gall Bladder plus the addition of having Ankalosing Spondylitis since my twenties and now a little dimentia setting in so perhaps you'll understand why I leave it to the Gospel itself to explain about Salvation which it does far better than I ever could. After all, it is the power of God unto salvation not me although my job is to proclaim it. If you want to destroy me, fine, let it be so, but you cannot destroy the Word of God and there are others like Common Soldier who are fit and worthy to take you on. You see your Allah and Mohammed can never beat God, never amount to the heights of Jesus Christ and have nothing to offer fallen men still in their sin. Jesus Christ is the only Way to Salvation for there is no other.

Let's see. You seem to be copy pasting from some place without actually referencing. So, you're not off to a good start. I read each verse reference there. Most do not even remotely relate to Jesus being god. I scratched them in your post. That leaves us with the following:

Colossians 2:9

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

However, that is followed by this:

Colossians 2:9

and in Christ you have been brought to fullness.

Basically, this verse doesn't really tell us that Jesus is god. There is a metaphorical description going on in there. It's more of a nod to representation, not as a being.

John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

Now, oneness doesn't necessarily mean they're the same being. In John 10:25 it says "The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me" which is a clear presentation of distinction between god and Jesus.

If you feel other specific verses that I scratched were also telling us that Jesus was god itself please point them out specifically so that we can take a second look at them. I have no interest in destroying you. That was a strange thing for you to state. I can only point out how the faith you present here is so weak that you often have to alter what is written.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

I have never altered what is written for by saying, " It is written, " surely points to God's innerrant word which is the Bible. My faith in what is written is stronger now than it ever was why? Because by experience I have found it to be true and trustworthy. If per chance your alternatives were true then God couldn't be God nor could any person be relieved of the burden of their sin leaving even Muslims in a hopeless position. John however took great energy in his writings to show that Jesus Christ is Messias and him being closer to Jesus than perhaps any other would have picked that up sooner than the others so we can see that by what he did write. We learn that John never scarpered like the others, even being at the cross with Mary into whose hands she was put by Jesus. You see the thing is that I can put myself into the shoes ot those around Jesus Christ to see a bigger picture surrounding what is written yet all you see is the dead letter of Scripture. This you call altering what is written yet it is not and quite clearly not. So, from Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the innerrant Word of God and salvation, God's mercy, can only come by the workings of God by the blood shed at Calvary by our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Why even as I write people across this world are being brought to that knowledge and it will only stop when Jesus Christ returns to judge all things. It's not just something that happened two thousand years ago rather an ongoing experience that many will enjoy right up to that event.

[conon394]

@basics

I would add you can't really things like 1 samual 2.6 because read isolation of the OT it is clearly Jewish thought about one god and says nothing about the NT trinity described only in the NT by NT authors.

surely points to God's innerrant word which is the Bible

Well if you believe I suppose and even than you have to consider all the bits lost, ignored, edited out or lost in translation.

God's mercy

Again not seeing much of that out of an inept deity who punished everything for his blunder and than only got to maybe sorta fixing years later with mercy but delivered in such a way that still tons of people never got the option.

[Common Soldier]

@basics

I would add you can't really things like 1 samual 2.6 because read isolation of the OT it is clearly Jewish thought about one god and says nothing about the NT trinity described only in the NT by NT authors.

In Genesis 1:26 it says "Let us make mankind in our image" not "Let me make mankind in my image", and in Genesis 1:28 it said God made mankind in his image, male and female, not "God and his angels made mankind", so in verse 1:26 God was not talking about angels when he said "Let Us" in verse 1:26.

Likewise in Genesis 3:22 it says "The man has become like one of US, knowing good and evil", and in Genesis 11:7-8 it says "Come, let US go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other each other. So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth ...". Again, God refers to himself in the plural, but is shown to be acting alone. Nor God referring to himself in the plural confined to Genesis. In Isaiah 6:8 it says "Then I heard rhe voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send? And who will go for US?' And I said, 'Here am I. Send me!'"

In addition, the Hebrew frequenrly uses the plural Elohim when referring to God (the singular is El). For example, in Exodus 20:2-3 it says;

"I am the Lord your God (Elohim), who brought you out of Egypt, out the land of slavery

"You shall have no other gods (elohim) before me

We find reference to God the Father in a number of Old Testament verses, for example in Psalms 89:26 "He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock of my salvation"


Likewise you also find references to the Son in the OT. In Psalm 2:12 it says "Do homage.to the Son,lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him" And in Proverbs 30:4 "Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? Wbat is His name or His Son's name?. Surely you know!"

And you will find numerous references to the Spirit in the Old Testament 1 Samuel 19:23 "...the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he ...", Judges 11:29 "Now the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthath...."


But you will also find references in the Old Testament that God is one. One such example is Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!", and Jesus himself confirms this in Mark 12:29, quoting Deuteronomy 6:4.

[Common Soldier]

Well if you believe I suppose and even than you have to consider all the bits lost, ignored, edited out or lost in translation.

You are confusing inerrant with the Muslim concept that Koran has been perfectly preserved. They are not the same thing. Biblical inerrancy means the bible is "without error or fault in all its teachings", and says nothing about whether parts of the bible have been lost or edited out. Technically, the Bible could have had lost or edited out bits and still be inerrant in the parts that remain.


It is a very common Muslims that boast the Koran has been perfectly preserved, with many Muslims saying evey single word has been perserved even though Muslims own sources say parts of the Koran have been lost. For example, we have a hadith the talks about verses of the were lost because they were eaten by a sheep (Sunan Ibn Majah 1944). Among the lost verses were one that specified in the penalty for adultery as death by stoning. Some Muslim countries still have a death penalty for adultery, even though the Koran today does not describe the death penaly adultery. In the Koran Surah 24:2 it only specifies 100 lashes for adultery. Because there some hadiths that showed Muhammad practicing stoning for adultery and reported there used to be verses in the Koran specifying stoning, stoning is the law in some Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, even though stoning is not in today's Koran.


Some Muslims try to pretend Surah 24:2 only applies to unmarried people, as you can see in this link: https://www.islamweb.net/en/article/...-sins-in-islam, but that is not what the Koran actually says, as you can see here: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.j...ter=24&verse=2. Anytime you see somthing in parentheses in a quote the Koran, those words are not in the original Arabic of the Koran. The stoning example demonstrates that (a) the Korsn has not been perfectpy preserved despite Muslim claims and (b) the importance of the hadiths, where Muslims will follow what the hadiths says over what the Koran actually says.. The hadirhs, if you don't know, are Muslim stories about the actions and sayings of Muhammad.

[basics]

@basics

I would add you can't really things like 1 samual 2.6 because read isolation of the OT it is clearly Jewish thought about one god and says nothing about the NT trinity described only in the NT by NT authors.

Well if you believe I suppose and even than you have to consider all the bits lost, ignored, edited out or lost in translation.

Again not seeing much of that out of an inept deity who punished everything for his blunder and than only got to maybe sorta fixing years later with mercy but delivered in such a way that still tons of people never got the option.

conon394,

The very first verse in the Bible is, " In the beginning God, Elohim, created the heaven and the earth." Further we read that Adam walked and talked with God in the where? In the garden yet the Father is a blinding Light that no man may look upon and live so Who did Adam do this with? Clearly it had to be Jesus, the very One John tells us as being the Creator of all things, that nothing that ever was created was not created but by Him, Jesus Christ. Up until the time of Abraham being given the Covenant promise there was no Jewish thought, indeed there was no Jewish anything. God made Abraham's people to be two things, one to carry the oracles of God and two, to bring forth from out of that people the God/man Jesus Christ, this according to all the prophets of God as well. He was to be God's mercy to a fallen creation and He achieved that on a Roman cross shedding the only acceptable price for sin, that being sinless blood.

How is God inept? If this story that begins in Genesis and ends in the revelation of Jesus Christ is solely about man then I'm afraid you've got it all wrong. Our being is solely about God not man which man just doesn't see and so in man's thinking, if someone has to be blamed then blame God. If anyone was inept it was Adam whom God had shown so many things and taught him so many things, when he followed Eve to eat of the fruit. The price was immediate as they found to their shame. They were naked on two counts, one no coverings and two nowhere to hide from God. Many years later this was seen again when the naked Lord Jesus Christ hung on that tree with no covering and nowhere else to go as He paid the price for the sins of so many. That's why the cross is so important for without it the wrath of God would have fallen on every single person ever born and all at the last day would be flung into hell. So, we read that everyone the Father has given to the Son, not one will be lost and that is the story of the Bible.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

I have never altered what is written for by saying, " It is written, " surely points to God's innerrant word which is the Bible. My faith in what is written is stronger now than it ever was why? Because by experience I have found it to be true and trustworthy. If per chance your alternatives were true then God couldn't be God nor could any person be relieved of the burden of their sin leaving even Muslims in a hopeless position. John however took great energy in his writings to show that Jesus Christ is Messias and him being closer to Jesus than perhaps any other would have picked that up sooner than the others so we can see that by what he did write. We learn that John never scarpered like the others, even being at the cross with Mary into whose hands she was put by Jesus. You see the thing is that I can put myself into the shoes ot those around Jesus Christ to see a bigger picture surrounding what is written yet all you see is the dead letter of Scripture. This you call altering what is written yet it is not and quite clearly not. So, from Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the innerrant Word of God and salvation, God's mercy, can only come by the workings of God by the blood shed at Calvary by our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Why even as I write people across this world are being brought to that knowledge and it will only stop when Jesus Christ returns to judge all things. It's not just something that happened two thousand years ago rather an ongoing experience that many will enjoy right up to that event.

Interesting that you choose to focus on your conduct rather than the references you provided for Jesus being god. That is disappointing. In the end your preaching is just plainly faulty. You make claims that others are false and only support that with substance from what you claim to be true. You have no objective evidence. You can not use the Bible to disprove the Quran and I can not use the Quran to disprove the Bible. Since your position is so damn weak you try to cloud that fact with preaching. That's really whats going on in your long posts that doesn't really address the post you're supposedly addressing.

[Common Soldier]

Interesting that you choose to focus on your conduct rather than the references you provided for Jesus being god. That is disappointing. In the end your preaching is just plainly faulty. You make claims that others are false and only support that with substance from what you claim to be true. You have no objective evidence. You can not use the Bible to disprove the Quran and I can not use the Quran to disprove the Bible. Since your position is so damn weak you try to cloud that fact with preaching. That's really whats going on in your long posts that doesn't really address the post you're supposedly addressing.

Actually, while you cannot use the Quran to disprove the Bible, you can use the Bible to disprove the Quran.

That is because while the Bible does not recognize the Quran as authentic scripture coming from God, the Quran does recognize the Bible as authentic, authoratative scripute coming from God.


Nowhere does the Quran specifically state the Gospel has been corrupted. In fact Surah 18:27 says none can change God's words, and Surah 3:3-4 says God revealed the Torah and the Gospel, thus making them God's word. To claim the Gospel is corrupted means the Quran is false. And Surah 5:47 tells the people of the Gospel to judge by what is in the Gospel. We know that the Gospel we have today is the same as the Gospel in Muhammad's time, and our Gospel/the Gospel of Muhammad's contradicts the Quran. We have a number of Gospels from Muhammad's time and before, and they all contradict the Koran. How can Allah tell people to judge by hypothetical Gospel they no longer have and hadn't had for several centuries?

If the Gospel was corrupted, why would Allah tell Christians to judge by a corrupt book, and not just tell to judge by the Quran? Also, the Quran in Surah 10:94 told Muhammad if he was in doubt about what God had revealed to him he should go to the people "who read book beford you", i.e., Jews and Christians.


There are 2 options:

1. Either Christians have the uncorruptede scriptures (inspired, preserved, authoritave word of God), in which case Islam is false because the Gospel contradicts core Islamic teaching


2. Or the Christians do not have the uncorrupted word of God , in which case Islam is false, because th Quran teaches the Gospels are uncorrupted (inspired, preserved, authoritative word of God).


In either scenario, Islam proves false. Note, while Muslims think the Quran stands in judgement on ths Bible, Surah 10:94 makes it clear that the Bible stands in judgement on the Quran. Apparently, Muhammad never bothered to follow this command of God, or Muhammad was overconfident, having no doubts when he should have, since if he had checked as Surah 10:94 commanded, he would have discovered his revelations were contradicted by the Bible.


PS - You are being guilty of a double standard since you complain about basics not providing facts or references when you are the one who hasn't facts or references. You falsely claimed basics hadn't provided any reference, which is not true. Basics did provide a number of biblical references to support his claims, and you pretty much just ignored them, just as you ignored all my posts. The verses you referenced in response to basics' didn't counter anything he said Why should basics bother providing the verses you keep demanding when you essentially ignored the verse basics did provide , and when you completely ignored all my replies to you where I provided the verses that proved what basics said?

I suspect you refuse to respond to me because I have demolished everything you said, and you are hoping your imam can provide some decent counter arguments. It will be interesting to see what argument he will try to come with to counter mine. He won't succeed, of course, but I curious what type of arguments the imam will try.

[Common Soldier]

Let's see. You seem to be copy pasting from some place without actually referencing. So, you're not off to a good start. I read each verse reference there. Most do not even remotely relate to Jesus being god. I scratched them in your post. That leaves us with the following:

Colossians 2:9


However, that is followed by this:

Colossians 2:9


Basically, this verse doesn't really tell us that Jesus is god. There is a metaphorical description going on in there. It's more of a nod to representation, not as a being.

Yes it does. You just happened to use a translation that just poorly tanslated the verses.

Although Colossians 2:9&10 use the same English word "fullness" they are translating 2 different Greek words with different meanings. The "fullness" in verse 9 doesn't mean the same thing as the "fullness" of verse 10. In verse 9, the Greek word is pleroma, while in verse 10 the Greek word is pepleromenoi. You can verify this on this link, which gives the Greek annd the English translation next to it https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-9.htm

Other translations do a better job, using different English words for the different Greek ones. In the New American Standard transaltion, "fullness" is used for verse 9 but "complete" for verse 10. Also, verses need to be taken in context of the entire letter that they are written, something many Muslims don't seem to be able to do, probably because the Koran has no context, which is why Muslims have to rely on the Hadiths to understand it.

In Colossians 1:16-19

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powera or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him" Col 1:16-19 NIV

I don't how much clearer it could be in proclaiming Jesus is God. Both the Bible and the Koran say God is the creator of all things, yet these verses clearly state Jesus is. These verses make it crystal clear that Jesus is not only man. A mere man could NOT have created all things. What do expect Paul to say, "PointOfViewGun, Jesus is God, deal with it!".

John 10:30


Now, oneness doesn't necessarily mean they're the same being. In John 10:25 it says "The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me" which is a clear presentation of distinction between god and Jesus.

Again, you have to take the verses into context. In the same Gospel John 1:1-18 says the Word was God and all things were made, which also what the verses in Colossians I just quoted above said. As for there beint a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus, of course, because the docrine asserts that God, although 1, has 3 separate perons. Yea, the concept is hard to understand, but is it any surprise that the infinite, all powerful, eternal God has a nature that defies us puny humans understanding? I think it is conceit and arrogance to insist God has nature we mere humans can full understand.

If you feel other specific verses that I scratched were also telling us that Jesus was god itself please point them out specifically so that we can take a second look at them. I have no interest in destroying you. That was a strange thing for you to state. I can only point out how the faith you present here is so weak that you often have to alter what is written.

You are being deliberately insulting to basics. It is hypocritical to complain about me calling you dishonest whem you give backhanded insults to basics in all your posts. Basics has a lot more patience and charity than I have.

[basics]

Surprisingly no-one has mentioned the dispute between Satan and Jesus when both said, " It is written " without chapter and verse being mentioned. Satan used it referring to angels protecting Jesus and Jesus used the term when referring to man not living by bread alone. By this dispute can there be any doubt about the authority of Scripture? Can there be any doubt as to Whom Jesus is?

[PointOfViewGun]

Surprisingly no-one has mentioned the dispute between Satan and Jesus when both said, " It is written " without chapter and verse being mentioned. Satan used it referring to angels protecting Jesus and Jesus used the term when referring to man not living by bread alone. By this dispute can there be any doubt about the authority of Scripture? Can there be any doubt as to Whom Jesus is?

Pretty much, yeah, there can be doubt, especially since what you're preaching there is dependent on the very scripture you're claiming it to validate. You understand the dilemma?

[Common Soldier]

Surprisingly no-one has mentioned the dispute between Satan and Jesus when both said, " It is written " without chapter and verse being mentioned. Satan used it referring to angels protecting Jesus and Jesus used the term when referring to man not living by bread alone. By this dispute can there be any doubt about the authority of Scripture? Can there be any doubt as to Whom Jesus is?

The temptation of Jesus by Satan does not require Jesus to be divine, even if Jesus was merely a powerful but human prophet like Moses they would be similar. I think an Elijah like prophet might be able to stones into bread if he chose to, for example. In 2 King 6 God sent an army of angels to protrct Elisha from thr Syrians, for example and Elish was a mere a mere human. No, I think there are better verses to prove the diety of Jesus. Colossians 1:16-18.

But I really don't think it matters how many biblical verses you provide PointOfViewGun it won't change PointOfViewGun's mind. People typically don't change theid mind simply because rhey read a few verses. Bslidfs often take time to change.

[Common Soldier]

Pretty much, yeah, there can be doubt, especially since what you're preaching there is dependent on the very scripture you're claiming it to validate. You understand the dilemma?

I am not sure what you asking for. Your can't prove that a scripture is true by quoting from it, true. But you can show what the scripture says by quoting for it. While ultimstely, you can interpret a work of literature any way you want, some interpretations are natural to the text. For example, you could interpret Sherlock Holmes stories pretending to be fiction, but that would not be the natural meaning of the text. I remember reading a science fiction story where an historian argued thr World War 2 histories were works of fiction. Stalin, man of steel, obviously an invented name, since he acted like steel in stopping the Germans. Adolph Hitler, Adolph meaning wolf and like a wolf he swept through Europe. Churchhill, a "church-on-the-hill" showing the steadiness of his character and his bringing hope to a beleaguered people. Thd point I am tryong to make is thst this future author was treating real historical accounts of WW2 as mythic allegory. So while you could treat a police report of homicide as an allegory on thr futility striving that would not be the natural interpretation of the text. h

Although this is a long winded say of saying I think you can at time be pretty cerain what the author intended even if not 100%.

[basics]

Common Soldier,

The point of the dispute between Satan and Jesus was because Satan knew jesus to be the Son of God. Notice that Satan used the term " if you are the Son....." why? The simple answer is that he knew already Whom Jesus was yet tried to kindle doubt in Jesus' mind, this being exemplified by offering Him all the kingdoms in the world if He would but bow down to him. Jesus' response was to say, " Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Remember Jesus had for forty days and nights fasted after being acknowledged as being the Son of God by the Father when He had emerged from the waters of baptism by John and He had done that at the Spirit's leading and the tempter must have known this to be on hand in pretty much the same way he was on hand to tempt Eve and then Adam. On that occasion Adam and Eve were in good health whereas Jesus was weakened by His fasting but unlike the other two His strength in the Spirit won through hands down.

Of course I don't expect POVG to understand these things but it's good to lay them out if only for the benefit of others. So, I think that I have proved not to be the only one to use the phrase, " It is written."

[PointOfViewGun]

Common Soldier,

The point of the dispute between Satan and Jesus was because Satan knew jesus to be the Son of God. Notice that Satan used the term " if you are the Son....." why? The simple answer is that he knew already Whom Jesus was yet tried to kindle doubt in Jesus' mind, this being exemplified by offering Him all the kingdoms in the world if He would but bow down to him. Jesus' response was to say, " Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Remember Jesus had for forty days and nights fasted after being acknowledged as being the Son of God by the Father when He had emerged from the waters of baptism by John and He had done that at the Spirit's leading and the tempter must have known this to be on hand in pretty much the same way he was on hand to tempt Eve and then Adam. On that occasion Adam and Eve were in good health whereas Jesus was weakened by His fasting but unlike the other two His strength in the Spirit won through hands down.

Of course I don't expect POVG to understand these things but it's good to lay them out if only for the benefit of others. So, I think that I have proved not to be the only one to use the phrase, " It is written."

There isn't slightest ounce of logic in what you preach. Belief doesn't have to be illogical. You should have been able to show that the Bible tells us about Jesus being god itself, since you claim it to be written. Yet, you hide behind preaching. That's a grave disservice to Christianity and Jesus himself. Moreover, clearly, you knew your case to be as baseless as much as I knew given that you felt the need to mention your personal shortcomings.

[Common Soldier]

There isn't slightest ounce of logic in what you preach. Belief doesn't have to be illogical. You should have been able to show that the Bible tells us about Jesus being god itself, since you claim it to be written. Yet, you hide behind preaching. That's a grave disservice to Christianity and Jesus himself. Moreover, clearly, you knew your case to be as baseless as much as I knew given that you felt the need to mention your personal shortcomings.

You haven't made any rational argument, provided no evidence to support your claims that "there isn't slightest ounce of logic in what you preach" in what basics said. It is you who are guilty of what you accuse basics of, doing a grave disservice to Islam by justifying critic opinions that Islam is deceptive and bigotted. Failig to point out, as you failed to so, that the word "fullness" in Colossian 2:9 translates a different Greek word than the "fullness" in Colossians 2:10 and has a different meaning, is being deceptive.


Unfortunately, your behaviour is all too typical in Islam:

1. Popular Muslim apologist Yusuf Estes made the absurd and easily proved fasle claim that Alexander the Great founded in Rome the Catholic Church 300 years before Jesus http://en.protothema.gr/alexander-th...heik-video/ste

2. The popular Muslim youtube channel MercifulServant cites Isaiah 42:13 as talking about Muhammad by leaving off the subject of the verse which clearly shows it is talking about God. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMVKnxmE3KI

3. Islam asserts the Quran has been perfectly preserved, as shown in this site https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/the-preservation/. Yet we have Muslim sources of the Quran that state chapters and verses of the Quran have been lost, including verses lost on stoning and breast feeding grown men* because they were eaten by a sheep: https://quranx.com/Hadith/IbnMajah/D...9/Hadith-1944/.

*Shahih Bukhari 6.60.79, 83:37, 17:4192 mentions the stoning of adulters, and even today's Quran does not say stoning, some devout Muslim countries like Iran practice stoning. Sahih Muslim book 8, Hadith 3425 talk about having men to suckle on thr breast of women to reduce their lust. This verse is also lost and not found in today's Quran. Many (most?) Muslims regard all the sayings of Bukhari ans Sahih Muslim as reliable, more Muslims as a result of western criticism are voicing doubts. Still, the traditional islamic view was all of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim were true.

It was Sunnan Ibn Majah 3:9:1944 which reported Aisha, a wife of Muhammad, said she kept the verse under her pillow but a tame sheep came and ate it while they were distracted after Muhammad's death. Note, Aisha was one time accused of adultery, and the wives of Muhammad were not happy with the command to breastfeed grown men. Perhaps the verses being eaten by a sheep was not as accidental as Aisha makes it out to be. Majah is one of the 6 hadith collections accepted by the vast majority of Muslims, as you know.

[basics]

There isn't slightest ounce of logic in what you preach. Belief doesn't have to be illogical. You should have been able to show that the Bible tells us about Jesus being god itself, since you claim it to be written. Yet, you hide behind preaching. That's a grave disservice to Christianity and Jesus himself. Moreover, clearly, you knew your case to be as baseless as much as I knew given that you felt the need to mention your personal shortcomings.

PointOfViewGun,

Here was me thinking you were just a Bible basher and yet according to CS you are in fact a Muslim. So, let's look at the facts concerning our dispute. My preaching as you call it has and always will be to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ as our Creator as well as our Redeemer Saviour so what's illogical in that? The Old Covenant tells us throughout that the " seed " to come will be The Son of God and the New Covenant clearly tells us that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Have a read at the Book to the Hebrews and see the connections from God's promise in the garden all the way to the Revelation of Jesus Christ that Jesus Christ is God, yes the very God Who is coming to judge all things as only God can do. My preaching as you call it has never wavered from that and never will as long as I have any breath left in me. It appears that CS has more knowledge of Islam than you as he can give quotes yet you don't, why is that?

[Common Soldier]

PointOfViewGun,

Here was me thinking you were just a Bible basher and yet according to CS you are in fact a Muslim. So, let's look at the facts concerning our dispute. My preaching as you call it has and always will be to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ as our Creator as well as our Redeemer Saviour so what's illogical in that? The Old Covenant tells us throughout that the " seed " to come will be The Son of God and the New Covenant clearly tells us that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Have a read at the Book to the Hebrews and see the connections from God's promise in the garden all the way to the Revelation of Jesus Christ that Jesus Christ is God, yes the very God Who is coming to judge all things as only God can do. My preaching as you call it has never wavered from that and never will as long as I have any breath left in me. It appears that CS has more knowledge of Islam than you as he can give quotes yet you don't, why is that?

I don't know for absolute certain PointOfViewGun is a Muslim, I just assumed he was because he argued and behaved like Muslims I have debates and videos I have seen of Muslim apologists. Also, he displayed knowledge of the Koran and some Islamic beliefs I don't think the typical non-Muslim would know or care about and he seems obsessed with trying to claim that Jesus is never shown to be God in the Bible, again a Muslim trait. As is his insistance that Islam is a continuation of Judaism and Christianith, another Muslim obsession. Islam likes think itself superior to the Judaism and Christianity, a new and improved model, and they are desperate to prove it.

Muslims also tend to ascribe their own actions and thoughts to others, that others must be doing things for reasons similar to their own. Because the Quran is such an incoherent disorganize mess Muslims typically rely on their teachers, called imams, for answers. A lot of Muslims are coached by their apologist to ask Christians some standard questions, such "in what verses in the Bible does Jesus say he is God" and then trained to counter typical verses frquently use, such as Colossians 2:9 as PointOfViewGun did. He didn't respond to the other verses because he couldn't, so instead he just claimed your other verses did not address the question, without explaining or showing why the verses didn't apply. That kind of behaviour is again typically Islamic, you see it repeatedly in the Koran. So when PointOfViewGun says you "not slightesr ounce ofmlogic" but made no effort to show why he thinks that, or why he is right to think that way, he is being Islamic. If you don't give an explanation or provide facts, your don't have to worry about your argument being shown to be flawed or your facts wrong.

For example verses in the Koran it mentions that people were pointing out Muhammad was simply repeating ancient myths and stories. The Koran/Muhammad never tries to show the charges of plagarism were not true, to breakdown down why the accusations were false. Nope, the Koran just dismisses the claim and attacks character of the people making the charges without answering the question. We know his critics were right, because we can even name some of the sources that Muhammad was ripping off. For example, the story in the Koran about a young Jesus turning clay birds into real ones came from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, a hereticsl gospel no scholar thinks is genuine.. Another example is the Koran's claim that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible. No Bible verses are quoted, no Bible books are mentioned, just the bare unsupported claim. If the Koran had quoted or referred to a specific verse, it could have been easily shown to be wrong and it would end matters. This way, Muslims can pick any verse in the Bible to support their claims, and once you disprove the claims for tha verse, they will just pick a different one. Muslims have been doing it for 1400 years. Dishonest tactic, but successful one