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Thread: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

  1. #121

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    basics, I see that you continue to disregard referencing your words. You make a lot of claims on what the Bible says but provide little substance to back those claims. Given that you have made claims about what the Bible says without the Bible actually saying it in the past I'm inclined to disregard any preaching you're attempting to make. Why is it so hard to reference exact passages from the Bible?
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #122
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Around the same time there was another Supernatural act being played out and that was with mary's cousin Elizabeth who past child bearing age conceived John eventually called the Baptist. She was about three months further on than Mary when the latter visited her and it was on that visit that we see a conection made between the two babies.
    Do we know this. Witnessed my how many people and appearing in only one version written how long after the fact?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #123
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    basics, I see that you continue to disregard referencing your words. You make a lot of claims on what the Bible says but provide little substance to back those claims. Given that you have made claims about what the Bible says without the Bible actually saying it in the past I'm inclined to disregard any preaching you're attempting to make. Why is it so hard to reference exact passages from the Bible?
    PointOfViewGun,

    It's not hard to give references but as I explained before by saying, " It is written," the object is to get you guys to find a Bible and search it for yourselves, why? Because again it is written that, " The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation," and Him being the One to save, it follows that if one is going to be saved, it will not be by me, rather a total work of the Three Persons of the Godhead that will bring it about. However there are two references to, " A body Thou hast prepared for Me," Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5.

    conon394,

    Dr Luke describes the incident after making his investigations about Jesus Christ not just to satisfy himself but also a friend who not only wanted his belief verified but to gain how authentic it was. Luke as we know did this by talking to the people who knew Jesus Christ bringing about his own salvation. The meeting of Mary and Elizabeth he most likely got from Mary herself, perhaps even John who was now looking after her. Would he just make it up? I don't think so because he would have been easily found out if that were the case. Ref, Luke 1:39-56. Another question I have to ask is that when talking to Jesus' followers it is quite probable that Mary or John would speak of it among all those gathered when Luke was gathering his information as there was nothing to hide in telling of it? Because one person did the writing doesn't mean that only one knew of it. That would be plain silly.

  4. #124

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    It's not hard to give references but as I explained before by saying, " It is written," the object is to get you guys to find a Bible and search it for yourselves, why? Because again it is written that, " The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation," and Him being the One to save, it follows that if one is going to be saved, it will not be by me, rather a total work of the Three Persons of the Godhead that will bring it about. However there are two references to, " A body Thou hast prepared for Me," Psalm 40:6 and Hebrews 10:5.
    If its written you don't need people to scavenge for it. You're in no position to convert us. You are only responsible with substantiating your claims. Do not hide behind preaching. God doesn't like that.

    In those verses, how does it mean that Jesus is the god?
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #125

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Just because you add quantum doesn't mean you can handwave anything. These laws of physics only exist because the human mind through its sheer ingenuity has found that the observable universe operates under universal laws. This world is like a clockwork, it's complicated but it is logically consistent. Which leads me to my next point:
    Modern humans are much less baffled about the world around them, we live with technological marvels. Therefore these flowery metaphors from goat farmers in the desert become more and more distant to us.

    And it doesn't need science to come to the conclusion that Jesus being god and man at the same time makes no sense. He has either reduced himself to live as human when he came to earth, or he is just a avatar of god who pretends to be human and fools the mortals around him. I find the latter answer unacceptable.
    And simply because because something doesn't make sense to you does not mean it doesn't make sense. You assertion that it can't make sense because you can't understand it is not a valid argument. Clearly more than a billion people don't share your opinion, and your opinions go against what Jesus himself said. Jesus said in the Gospel of John 8:58 that before Abraham he was, which clearly rules out your opinion - Jesus says he existed before he was born as a human being. Also, the Letter to thr Philippines 2:6-7 also rules out yor views as well.

    Of course, if you want to dismiss anything in the New Testament that you don't agree with you can handwave away anything you don't like in the same way, leaving you only with a Jesus that conforms entirely to your opinion, making your Jesus nothing more than a projection of your personal beliefs, not a real person at all. While Muslims believed that Allah's constant actions were required for the universe to function, Christians largely had a different view of God and the universe, viewing God more as a watchmaker who set the universe in motion.

    You stated your opinion, an opinion that Christians had considered and overwhelmingly rejected over the centuries. Your actions are smilar to Muslims, who claim thd Bible is corrupted everytime it disagrees with what the Koran says and Muslim believes, despite a complete lack there of biblical manuscript evidence to back up their claims. That is one of the big differences of Christianity and Islam, in that Christianity accepts the Jewish Tanakh in its entirity as is, while Islams does not accept either the Tanakh (Old Testament) or the New Testament, but only some hypothetical version that never actually existed as far as we have any evidence of.

  6. #126
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If its written you don't need people to scavenge for it. You're in no position to convert us. You are only responsible with substantiating your claims. Do not hide behind preaching. God doesn't like that.

    In those verses, how does it mean that Jesus is the god?
    PointOfViewGun,

    I think you'll see that I said I was in no position to convert anyone as that power comes from the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So, when I encourage people to search the Bible I am doing what God's word directs me to do without me giving chapter and verse, why? Because as I have said, therein lies God's power to save as has always been the case with the written word. So, written or orally given it still is God's way to salvation from the curse of the Law and the sin it leaves everyone in.

    As I have written from what is written it is clear that the body prepared was that of Mary, prepared to receive what the angel Gabriel told her, that she would bear Immanuel or God with us, Joseph himself hearing the similar that the child she bears is of God. Jesus Christ our God took up union with an egg belonging to Mary so that He could enter this world as a human does without relinquishing Him being God. That said there is no doubt that He relinquished a great deal in becoming a man even among men as His appearance was such that no one would desire Him. The power He retained however was in His words as it was them that drew people to Him more so than the miracles He did. His voice talked the worlds into being and so it remained His voice that carried the weight of His ministry. Indeed it was His voice that got Him crucified. Read a Bible and see that for yourself.

  7. #127

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I think you'll see that I said I was in no position to convert anyone as that power comes from the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So, when I encourage people to search the Bible I am doing what God's word directs me to do without me giving chapter and verse, why? Because as I have said, therein lies God's power to save as has always been the case with the written word. So, written or orally given it still is God's way to salvation from the curse of the Law and the sin it leaves everyone in.

    As I have written from what is written it is clear that the body prepared was that of Mary, prepared to receive what the angel Gabriel told her, that she would bear Immanuel or God with us, Joseph himself hearing the similar that the child she bears is of God. Jesus Christ our God took up union with an egg belonging to Mary so that He could enter this world as a human does without relinquishing Him being God. That said there is no doubt that He relinquished a great deal in becoming a man even among men as His appearance was such that no one would desire Him. The power He retained however was in His words as it was them that drew people to Him more so than the miracles He did. His voice talked the worlds into being and so it remained His voice that carried the weight of His ministry. Indeed it was His voice that got Him crucified. Read a Bible and see that for yourself.
    You are once again putting words in god's mouth. That is a grave sin. Nowhere does god say that you should be vague about your references to the Bible. It's merely a sign of your own position's weakness as you are unable to back your assertions from the scripture.

    Nothing in that explanation relates to why Jesus is god. Do you really have no substance to back that up? It's an important pillar for your position after all. It shouldn't be met with such weak argumentation.
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #128

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You are once again putting words in god's mouth. That is a grave sin. Nowhere does god say that you should be vague about your references to the Bible. It's merely a sign of your own position's weakness as you are unable to back your assertions from the scripture.
    If putting words in God's mouth is a grave sin, then Muhammad is guilty of a far, far, far greater sin. Muhammad claimed in Surah 9:30 that Jews said Ezra was the Son of God, and Muhammad mutters curses against them, we knkw Muhammad meant the claim in a literal sense. Since Allah knew Jews did not say Ezra was the Son of God, these words must have been Muhammad's own, ans not from Allah as he said.

    Indeed Muhammad clain that his revelation comes from Allah rest entirely on the alleged literary excellent of the Koran, and non Muslim scholars of the Koran have point out that the Koran was far from excellent. It is chaotically orgsnized, oftdn needleasly redundant, and suffers from grammatical flaws. Even a Muslim lime Ali Dashti in his biography of Muhammad "Twenty Three Years" acknolwdges the flaws of the Koran, admitting that the Koran often needs outside commentaries to be understood, and suffers from grammatical mistskes (page 41). Thr Koran itself admits that it was said the stories in thr Koran were just retelling of ancient fables (6:25, 8:31, 16:24), a charge the Koran does not refute. We know the charges were true, since we have some of the ancient sources where these stories innthe Koran came from. For example, the Koran story of Jesus changing clay birds into real ones came from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas thr Israelite, a gospel universally agreed by scholars as lackin authentic traditions of Jesus

    Nothing in that explanation relates to why Jesus is god. Do you really have no substance to back that up? It's an important pillar for your position after all. It shouldn't be met with such weak argumentation.
    The Gospel of John explicitedly makes it clear Jesus was God - see John 1:1-3. Also in John 10:30 Jesus said "The Father and I are one", and John 8:58 "Before Abraham was born, I am" which the Jews rightly understood Jesus to be saying he was God when they tried ro stone him in the next verse. "I am" was what God himself in the burning bush before Moses. Even the other Gospels indicatd Jesus was God, if less directly. In Mark 2:5-11, Jesus forgives the sins of a paralyzed man, and when the lawyers said "only God can forgive sins" Jesus proved he had the right to forgive sins by healing the man. The lawyers were right in that only God forgive sins, and since Jesus proved he had the right to forgive sins, it was subtley showing that Jesus was God.

    When at the end of Matthew Jesus tells his apostles to make disciples of all nations "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" Jesus was proclaiming the Trinity, and that he was God also, one of the 3 persons of God. Jesus already said that God was one, so Jesus was not proclaiming 3 separate gods.

    .The Trinity is a hard concept for Muslims to grasp, how 3 can be one. I would like to point out that our brains are split into 2 separate hemispheres yet they act togethet to form one person. Because of severe seizures, doctors sometimes have cut the cord that connects the 2 halves of the brain. When they showed an object that would only be visible to the non verbal half of the brain, the person did not recognize the object or say what it was, yet the hand that was controlled by the non verbal half of thr brain would correctly pick out the object. One otherwise normal person yet still had 2 hemispheres of the brain that could function separarely. Simply because hiz brain was separated, did not make them 2 people, they still remain one person.

    Here is a link to discuss the split brain phenomenon. If we can have 2 different halves of a brain that csn funtion sepatarely but still considered to be one person, why can't God have 3 persons yet be considered one entity?

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...1/split-brains
    Last edited by Common Soldier; May 11, 2020 at 08:35 AM.

  9. #129
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You are once again putting words in god's mouth. That is a grave sin. Nowhere does god say that you should be vague about your references to the Bible. It's merely a sign of your own position's weakness as you are unable to back your assertions from the scripture.

    Nothing in that explanation relates to why Jesus is god. Do you really have no substance to back that up? It's an important pillar for your position after all. It shouldn't be met with such weak argumentation.
    PointOfViewGun,

    There is absolutely nothing in what I said takes away any glory from God so how can I have sinned by explaining what happened in the miraculous conception of God, Jesus Christ, with Mary? They are not vague references at all. Well if you actually read a Bible you can see that it does relate to the coming of Jesus Christ into the world as a man. From the very fall of Adam and Eve a " seed " from Eve was promised, that " seed " being Jesus Christ, to contend with Satan for the souls of men. It specifically relates to Satan's injuring of Christ and of Him defeating Satan where? At that point nobody knew but subsequently we found out it was the cross on which Jesus Christ died on to pay for the sins of many and subsequently be raised again from the grave back to the Glory He originates from, why? Because He is God and to prove He was He showed Himself to over four hundred people. That is what is written and it is the belief in that that brings about the salvation of so many.

    So, if we are made in the image of God what image is that? The Father is a blinding Light upon Whom no man may look and live, that being the case how is it that Mohammed and his minions can be in a paradise with God. How is it that the angels manage to survive in such an atmosphere? My friend the image we are made in is the image of Christ Who had form and will always have form so that we will live for eternity knowing Him on a face to face basis. From the moment a person is made regenerate or born again the Third Person of the Trinity takes up union with that person to ensure that nothing, nothing, can come between them and their new life in Christ Jesus. Therefore we see the Three Persons of the Godhead in action with one purpose, that being to bring back fallen men and women to God for as Jesus Christ said, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." One God with Three Personalities Who can work individually is our God, our Saviour and our Comforter. Find me the sin in that?

  10. #130

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    There is absolutely nothing in what I said takes away any glory from God so how can I have sinned by explaining what happened in the miraculous conception of God, Jesus Christ, with Mary? They are not vague references at all. Well if you actually read a Bible you can see that it does relate to the coming of Jesus Christ into the world as a man. From the very fall of Adam and Eve a " seed " from Eve was promised, that " seed " being Jesus Christ, to contend with Satan for the souls of men. It specifically relates to Satan's injuring of Christ and of Him defeating Satan where? At that point nobody knew but subsequently we found out it was the cross on which Jesus Christ died on to pay for the sins of many and subsequently be raised again from the grave back to the Glory He originates from, why? Because He is God and to prove He was He showed Himself to over four hundred people. That is what is written and it is the belief in that that brings about the salvation of so many.

    So, if we are made in the image of God what image is that? The Father is a blinding Light upon Whom no man may look and live, that being the case how is it that Mohammed and his minions can be in a paradise with God. How is it that the angels manage to survive in such an atmosphere? My friend the image we are made in is the image of Christ Who had form and will always have form so that we will live for eternity knowing Him on a face to face basis. From the moment a person is made regenerate or born again the Third Person of the Trinity takes up union with that person to ensure that nothing, nothing, can come between them and their new life in Christ Jesus. Therefore we see the Three Persons of the Godhead in action with one purpose, that being to bring back fallen men and women to God for as Jesus Christ said, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." One God with Three Personalities Who can work individually is our God, our Saviour and our Comforter. Find me the sin in that?
    You claimed that it is god that direct you to be vague in referencing the Bible. That's putting words in god's mouth. That's bound to be a grave sin punishable by the fires of hell in Christianity. Is it not? Will you not show us where in the Bible Jesus is presented as the god?
    The Armenian Issue

  11. #131

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You claimed that it is god that direct you to be vague in referencing the Bible.
    Basic makes no such claim. You assert that basic is putting words in god's mouth, but it is you that are putting words into basic mouth. I have provided you with the specific references in the Bible that support what basic says, so he doesn't need to provide rhem since I have already answered you.

    Your being decieptful is not surprising, since Allah in the Koran boast he ks the best of all decievers - "But they were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, since Allah was the best of all decievers" (Surah 3:54). Surah 8:30 also says the same thing. The Koran gives an example of Allah's lying when Allah boasted he had decieved people into thinking they had cruucified Jesus when in fact they had not in Surah 4:157.

    The Koran also shows Allah lying to Muslims. In Surah 8:43, Allah admitted he showed Muhammad in a dream his foes being few, since Allah knew if he showed Muhammad the enemy being numerous, Muhammad would question his decission to fight. Since Allah practices lying in the Koran, it is not surprising that Muslims such as yourself might practice lying and deception as well. Lying in defense of Islam (Taqiyya/Muda'rat), and since defense of Islam could include merely defending Islam against truthful accusations made against it, that covers a lot of territory. We see a number of examples of Muhammad and early Muslims practicing lying. For example, in the murder of Usayr Ibn Zarim and his 30 companions, who were lured unarmed ro Medina to discuss peace with Muhammad and then murdered (Ibn Ishaq 981). The book of Shafi'i school of Islamic Law "Reliance of the Traveler" says that lyng is permissible if the goal permissble if telling the truth won't work and the goal is praiseworthy and lying is obligatory and if the goal is obligatory (pg 746 8.2 Nuh.Ha.Min Keller translation).

    That's putting words in god's mouth. That's bound to be a grave sin punishable by the fires of hell in Christianity. Is it not? Will you not show us where in the Bible Jesus is presented as the god?
    Then Muhammad must be in considerable trouble, since he claims Allah said the Jews say Ezra is the Son of God Surah 9:30 and clearly Allah would know better hat statement is false.

    To save basic from answering, thee are numerous Bible passages shwoing Jeaus is God. In John 1:1-3 makes in plain Jesus.was God, it specifically states that "the Word was God" and The Word is one of Jesus titles. And throughout the Gospels it shows Jesus having thr attributes of God. Jesus says he will judge John 5:22, but it is Allah who is judge. Jesus says he and the father are one John 10:30. I don't know how much clearer the Gospels could be in proclaiming Jesus God. Jesus says to his apostles he will be with them always, even until.the end of the age (Matthew 28:20).

    Now that I have provided basic the Bible versese you have asked basic for, maybe youncan stop badgering him..
    Last edited by Common Soldier; May 12, 2020 at 02:40 PM.

  12. #132
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You claimed that it is god that direct you to be vague in referencing the Bible. That's putting words in god's mouth. That's bound to be a grave sin punishable by the fires of hell in Christianity. Is it not? Will you not show us where in the Bible Jesus is presented as the god?
    PointOfViewGun,

    Where in what I have just written is it vague? By me saying, " It is written," is a direct reference to the Bible with or without chapter and verse so that does not make God's word vague in any shape at all. As I have explained before on many occasions and the main reason I joined these debates was because others were flinging around verses as a means of trying to trap Bible believing people that they weren't true. The golden rule about learning from the Bible is context and flow and so if one doesn't get that right it shows a direct lack of Biblical knowledge. This is the main fault that you unbelievers are found to be in. So, by me saying, " It is written," is a direct challenge to you scoffers to pick up a Bible and actually read it, not just pick up little parts to suit your agenda.

    From Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ is talked of, prophesised of, and confirmed of as being God. When Abel offered up a lamb, in type he was offering up Jesus Christ the "seed" promised by God at the very fall of Adam and Eve and so God accounted him righteous as He did with all the other saints in the Old Testament. The greatest of these was when Abraham offered up Isaac, Isaac being a type and shadow of Christ being offered up for the sins of men. Abraham was accounted righteous but not only that his wife Sarah in Isaac bore the "seed" that would come into the world as God our Saviour Whom we know to be Jesus Christ. Jews and Muslims still await that figure for different reasons yet I can confidently say thanks to youtube that even Jews and Muslims can testify that Jesus Christ is Messias and now their Lord and Saviour. God has removed the veil of blindness from their eyes and minds and the testimonies are there for all to see.

    Common Soldier,

    Thank you!

  13. #133

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun, Where in what I have just written is it vague? By me saying, " It is written," is a direct reference to the Bible with or without chapter and verse so that does not make God's word vague in any shape at all. As I have explained before on many occasions and the main reason I joined these debates was because others were flinging around verses as a means of trying to trap Bible believing people that they weren't true. The golden rule about learning from the Bible is context and flow and so if one doesn't get that right it shows a direct lack of Biblical knowledge. This is the main fault that you unbelievers are found to be in. So, by me saying, " It is written," is a direct challenge to you scoffers to pick up a Bible and actually read it, not just pick up little parts to suit your agenda.
    Basics, I think PointOfViewGun is asking you to provide rhe specific Bible verses you are referring to. While I have provided specific Bible verses to PointOfViewGun, he refuses ro debate with me and ignores what I post, so it would be better to provide the Bible verses yourself.
    From Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ is talked of, prophesised of, and confirmed of as being God. When Abel offered up a lamb, in type he was offering up Jesus Christ the "seed" promised by God at the very fall of Adam and Eve and so God accounted him righteous as He did with all the other saints in the Old Testament. The greatest of these was when Abraham offered up Isaac, Isaac being a type and shadow of Christ being offered up for the sins of men. Abraham was accounted righteous but not only that his wife Sarah in Isaac bore the "seed" that would come into the world as God our Saviour Whom we know to be Jesus Christ. Jews and Muslims still await that figure for different reasons yet I can confidently say thanks to youtube that even Jews and Muslims can testify that Jesus Christ is Messias and now their Lord and Saviour. God has removed the veil of blindness from their eyes and minds and the testimonies are there for all to see.
    From what I can tell, PointOfViewGun will want the specifc Bible verses that support what you say. I know it will be work, but I don't think PointOfViewGun will be satisfy until you do, and if I post thr answers, PointOfViewGun will just ignore my post.
    Common Soldier, Thank you!
    Your welcome.

  14. #134

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Where in what I have just written is it vague? By me saying, " It is written," is a direct reference to the Bible with or without chapter and verse so that does not make God's word vague in any shape at all. As I have explained before on many occasions and the main reason I joined these debates was because others were flinging around verses as a means of trying to trap Bible believing people that they weren't true. The golden rule about learning from the Bible is context and flow and so if one doesn't get that right it shows a direct lack of Biblical knowledge. This is the main fault that you unbelievers are found to be in. So, by me saying, " It is written," is a direct challenge to you scoffers to pick up a Bible and actually read it, not just pick up little parts to suit your agenda.

    From Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ is talked of, prophesised of, and confirmed of as being God. When Abel offered up a lamb, in type he was offering up Jesus Christ the "seed" promised by God at the very fall of Adam and Eve and so God accounted him righteous as He did with all the other saints in the Old Testament. The greatest of these was when Abraham offered up Isaac, Isaac being a type and shadow of Christ being offered up for the sins of men. Abraham was accounted righteous but not only that his wife Sarah in Isaac bore the "seed" that would come into the world as God our Saviour Whom we know to be Jesus Christ. Jews and Muslims still await that figure for different reasons yet I can confidently say thanks to youtube that even Jews and Muslims can testify that Jesus Christ is Messias and now their Lord and Saviour. God has removed the veil of blindness from their eyes and minds and the testimonies are there for all to see.
    You have explicitly told us that you were not going to name verses since it was my job to be saved. That is quite being vague. I never said god's words were vague either. You should stick to what people say. If you make specific claims about the Bible the burden is on you to reference them. Simply saying "read the Bible" is no argument. God wouldn't like that. It is quite suspect that you have not been able to substantiate your claim that Jesus is god. After all there is a reason why you try to preach at every corner. Only a fraction of your posts actually address what I say. You're basically trying to cloud the lack of merit or substance of your positions. That is the truth till you manage to show otherwise.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Of course, if you want to dismiss anything in the New Testament that you don't agree with you can handwave away anything you don't like in the same way, leaving you only with a Jesus that conforms entirely to your opinion, making your Jesus nothing more than a figment of your mid, not a real person at all.
    And how am i different from the Churches who do the same? Selective reading and/or censorship of the scripture and inventing a Jesus who conforms to their views. Always been a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    You stated your opinion, an opinion that Christians had considered and overwhelmingly rejected over the centuries. Your actions are the same as Muslims, who claim thd Bible is corrupted everytime it disagrees with what the Koran says and Muslim believes, despite a complete lack there of biblical manuscript evidence to back up their claims.
    I am now a Muslim? Maybe i am just not devout enough to take bible stories completely serious.
    Arius view on the nature of Jesus has actually not died out in the 4th century, being held by antitrinitarians including great persons like Isaac Newton.

  16. #136

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    And how am i different from the Churches who do the same? Selective reading and/or censorship of the scripture and inventing a Jesus who conforms to their views. Always been a thing.
    I concede the point. People do tend to invent a Jesus who conforms to their views. All I can say is the vast majority of Christians through the ages did not adhere to your views but have held a trinitarian belief. I don't know of any major church today that doesn't believe in some version of trinitarian doctrine.


    I am now a Muslim? Maybe i am just not devout enough to take bible stories completely serious. Arius view on the nature of Jesus has actually not died out in the 4th century, being held by antitrinitarians including great persons like Isaac Newton.
    It is interesting, I knew Newton held heretical views but not that he was antitrinitarian. Although I thought you had Adoptionist views, who held that Jesus was not born God but became God after the Spirit of God descended on him during his ministry. Adoptionism as I understand it still had a kind of trinitarian view, just that they did not think Jesus was eternal and God before his birth. I seem to have misunderstood you, my appology. As for not taking the Bible.stories seriously, do you reject all of them or just some of them? If some, what is your criteria for.accepting some but rejecting others? Just curious.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; May 13, 2020 at 10:49 AM.

  17. #137
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Ultimately, everyone has to decide for themselves what they believe.
    I personally find the ethical aspects of Jesus teaching more important to everyday life. A moral guidance which leads people to question their life and become more virtuous. Modern day problem of the church that is on the brink of extinction, some countries have become deeply atheist societies where religion is laughed upon. And those few who are religious are superstitious or muslim. Focusing on the miracles which wooed people in antiquity isn't helpful to the christian cause of reaching as many people as possible.

  18. #138
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You have explicitly told us that you were not going to name verses since it was my job to be saved. That is quite being vague. I never said god's words were vague either. You should stick to what people say. If you make specific claims about the Bible the burden is on you to reference them. Simply saying "read the Bible" is no argument. God wouldn't like that. It is quite suspect that you have not been able to substantiate your claim that Jesus is god. After all there is a reason why you try to preach at every corner. Only a fraction of your posts actually address what I say. You're basically trying to cloud the lack of merit or substance of your positions. That is the truth till you manage to show otherwise.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Where did I ever say that it was your job to be saved for I distinctly remember just above telling you that salvation is a work totally of God in His Three persons. Salvation comes by the hearing or reading the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I keep pointing you to my references being from Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Therein lies the power of God to save, your part is if you want to be saved and mean it. For you to say that I leave you feeling vague isn't quite true because in talking about Abel it should be obvious to anyone where to find him in the Scriptures just as it is with Abraham, Noah and others whom God accounted righteous before Himself. It's all in Genesis including the "seed" that would in time save them, clear their accounts by hanging on a cross to die for their sins or their accountability. That " seed " is Jesus Christ Who only awaits His time to return to judge all things. Why even the thickest among us can use Google with a few words to find chapter and verse if they don't want to read the rest. So, I say to anyone in any doubt about my writings to do so if they can't be bothered to read a Bible.

  19. #139

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Where did I ever say that it was your job to be saved for I distinctly remember just above telling you that salvation is a work totally of God in His Three persons. Salvation comes by the hearing or reading the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I keep pointing you to my references being from Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Therein lies the power of God to save, your part is if you want to be saved and mean it. For you to say that I leave you feeling vague isn't quite true because in talking about Abel it should be obvious to anyone where to find him in the Scriptures just as it is with Abraham, Noah and others whom God accounted righteous before Himself. It's all in Genesis including the "seed" that would in time save them, clear their accounts by hanging on a cross to die for their sins or their accountability. That " seed " is Jesus Christ Who only awaits His time to return to judge all things. Why even the thickest among us can use Google with a few words to find chapter and verse if they don't want to read the rest. So, I say to anyone in any doubt about my writings to do so if they can't be bothered to read a Bible.
    You did say it was not your job to save me. You used that argument to run away from providing real references. Still no direct references to Bible about how Jesus is god? Why is it so hard to provide this?
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #140

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You did say it was not your job to save me. You used that argument to run away from providing real references. Still no direct references to Bible about how Jesus is god? Why is it so hard to provide this?
    PointOfViewGun

    Why should basics provide you the bible verse when I have already provided them to you? Since I provided you the bible verses, and basics know I have provided them to you, he knows he does not need to. Why should basics bother complying with your request when you haven't reaponded to my replies to you or answered my questions?

    You seem insincere in your badgering requests to him for information I provided to you. Why do the verses specifically need to come from basics when I have provide them to you?

    The following all show Jesus was God

    John 1: 1-3 specifically states the Word was God, and John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among men, and was called the Father's only son. The Word was Jesus.

    John 10:30 Jesus says he and the Father are one, and in John 10:33 the Jews specifically explain they were trying to stone Jesus because Jesus said he was God.

    John 8:58 - 59 Jesus said he existed before Abraham, some 1600 years earlier and use the word "I AM", which is how God referred to himself when confronting Moses in the burning bush in Exodus 3:14. The Jews undersrood this to mean Jesus was declaring himself to be God since they tried stone him.

    At Jesus trial before the Jewish leaders, his reply was understood by them to mean he was claiming to be God, since the reply alone was enough to accuse Jesus of blasphemy and have him convicted. (Matthew 26:62-65, Mark.14:62-64). The Jewish leaders understood Jesus was claiming to be God, which is why they accused him of blasphemy.

    Mark 2:5-7, Jesus forgave the sins of a paralyzed man, but the lawyers pointed out only God could forgive sins. Jesus proved that he had the authority to forgive sins by healing the man, thus showing he was God. While we have the right to forgive sins against us, we don't have the right to forgive sins against others. I can forgive a burglar and decide not to press charges for robbing me, but I can't do that formthr robbery against other people, I don't have the right.

    I could providr many other examples where thr Bible shows Jesus is God, and these are not even necessarily the best examples, just the first to come to mind.


    I have to wonder what your game is to keep asking from basics information that was already provided to you. It shouldn't matter who provided thr information. Tell me, if basics just copied what I wrote and replied to you would you be satisfied? Seems to me your are trying to bd deceptive in asking questions to which the answer has already bedn provided, and rather hypocritcal, since you don't answer my questions to you.

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