Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

[PointOfViewGun]

Non-Sacrifice... the gruesome torture of crucification. Jesus sacrificed his life and dignity for a undeserving world of sinners.
What did Muhammad sacrifice? After conquering Arabia and successfully converting everyone to Islam, he catched a fever and died anticlimactically.

Jesus, being god, could end it at any moment. He could have been numbing the pain completely if it bothered him. He could come back to life any moment. Heck, he could create a parallel universe where he'd be sipping Mojitos at a beach. What he did, being that he was god, was no sacrifice. You can't call him god and say that he sacrificed himself at the same time.

PointOfViewGun,

All mankind fell under the curse of sin and death at the fall of Adam and Eve so all being guilty one can say that it is collective even to Muslims. Does a Muslim not require the mercy of God and if so for what? Even if it only took good works not one person could qualify for mercy, why? Because blood is the price laid down for sin and all are guilty of sin, so, can a sinner's blood gain entry to heaven? No, why? Because even the blood which is the life of any living being is tainted by sin and so can't qualify. That's the result of disobedience as well as disbelief which you and all the world still fall for. You actually think that you can persuade God to believe you when you in turn will not be persuaded by God. So, the "seed" Jesus Christ came into the world as a man to be the substitute for all them that His blood would save by His actions on a cross just as was predicted by God and His prophets. Alas, that doesn't open your mind at all, rather the opposite, and so your own condemnation remains on you and will do so until that great day when you have to bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, which by then is too late for you.

So, now, you're justifying collective guilt. Interesting. This is a quite deadly mentality. Thanks for acknowledging the fact that you're defending collective guilt and that you're questioning god's omnipotence. A blasphemous take even by Christian standard but one that exists nonetheless.

[Mayer]

Jesus is not a god, he is son of god, divine in human flesh.
No, he didn't have ending suffering and instant resurrection as superpower.

I'd compare it to the pagan story of Heracles, who went through trials and suffering, despite being a son of god as well.

[Common Soldier]

Jesus, being god, could end it at any moment. He could have been numbing the pain completely if it bothered him. He could come back to life any moment. Heck, he could create a parallel universe where he'd be sipping Mojitos at a beach. What he did, being that he was god, was no sacrifice. You can't call him god and say that he sacrificed himself at the same time.

Yes, Jesus.could hve done all those things, but the point is he didn't, which is why what he did was a sacrifice. Jesus could have called down a legion of angels to defend himself as he was arrested as the Gospel pointed out, and thus avoided capture and deah, but he voluntarily chose not to. So yes, what he did was a sacrifice. You obviously don't see the logic and necessity of such a sacrifice, it clearly makes nonsense ro you, but.it is still a sacrifice regardless of your limited understanding..

If Jesus couldn't hage done all the things you said, if Jesus couldn't have avoided being arrested and killed, then what Jesus did would be no sacrifice. Jesus would be merely an unfortunate victim. But Jesus did have the power to avoid being arrested and killed, did have the ability to avoid suffering and chose not to, which is why what he did was a sacrifice. A sacrifice doesn't have to be logical or make sense to still be a sacrifice. Your logic is flawed.

That it makes no sense to you is not relevant, any.more than if you don't understand quantum physics. Even though quantum physics defies convential logic and expectations it is still the way the world is, whether quantum physics makes sense to us or not.

So, now, you're justifying collective guilt. Interesting. This is a quite deadly mentality. Thanks for acknowledging the fact that you're defending collective guilt and that you're questioning god's omnipotence. A blasphemous take even by Christian standard but one that exists nonetheless.

Yet many Muslims themselves operate on the principle od.collectivd guilt, otherwise how do you explain all.the numerous Muslim.attacks on innocrnt children, women, and men? Of attacks on churches during their most holy religious day in a country where Christians are a relatively powerless minority? Of Christian school girls being beheaded for no other reason but they are Christians by a Muslim in a country where Islam and its value dominate? Whether such an idea as collective guilt is clearly spelled out in Islam or not, numerous Muslims act as if collective guilt is real.

A far deadlier mentality is that the Koran isthe eternal word of God, and a murderer and rapist like Muhammad was God's spokeman, since not only did it provoke violence in thr past but also widespread violence today. When the founder of a religion sanctions the killing of critics, okays robbery and rape, we can hardly be sueprised when many followers of that religion do the same. And when their most holy book the Koran tells believers to fight unbelievers until they submit and pay (extortion) money (Surah 9:29) should we be surprised when we see Muslims doing exactly that? That is what is a deadly mentality, not collective guilt.


The reality of the world is that the "innocent" often suffer as a result of the actions of others. A child might suffer birth defects as a rest of the drug and alcohol abuse of her mother during her pregnancy. Islanders in some remote Pacific island might suffer the effects of rising sea level due to Climate Change that they did little to contribute to. A child might live in poverty because his parent gsmbled away all the money and estates his ancestors owned. But collective reaponsibility has some positive aspects.as well - we benefit from modern antibiotics and dsicoveries made by others even though we had nothing to do with creating them.

[conon394]

Gibbon

????????????

Really you going to any claim to a number he liked. On what basis. Might as well tell me the 300 really did defy a million Persians.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

We were made for God's good pleasure in which He plays the major part, us being bit part players as each scenario plays out. The idea that everything happens by chance then becomes silly because as Creator of all things it follows that He can do whatever He wants with these things and so it is. So, did He have to go on a cross? Being God and Creator the answer is no, of course He didn't but for the story, His story, He made it so that He did die and was resurrected because it is the major scenario in the story with the climax being that He'll return to finalise what it was all about. In heavenly time it has already been played out as John's vision portrays. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega Who holds all the names of every person saved by His blood, having been Justified by Faith in that blood from the beginning of the world till its very ending. So, we're not waiting for something that might happen, rather something that is surely going to happen. There isn't a person dead or alive who will not see the finish of this and then be dispatched to their allotted places but only after acknowledging Him as God.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

We were made for God's good pleasure in which He plays the major part, us being bit part players as each scenario plays out. The idea that everything happens by chance then becomes silly because as Creator of all things it follows that He can do whatever He wants with these things and so it is. So, did He have to go on a cross? Being God and Creator the answer is no, of course He didn't but for the story, His story, He made it so that He did die and was resurrected because it is the major scenario in the story with the climax being that He'll return to finalise what it was all about. In heavenly time it has already been played out as John's vision portrays. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega Who holds all the names of every person saved by His blood, having been Justified by Faith in that blood from the beginning of the world till its very ending. So, we're not waiting for something that might happen, rather something that is surely going to happen. There isn't a person dead or alive who will not see the finish of this and then be dispatched to their allotted places but only after acknowledging Him as God.

Jesus is not a god, he is son of god, divine in human flesh.
No, he didn't have ending suffering and instant resurrection as superpower.

I'd compare it to the pagan story of Heracles, who went through trials and suffering, despite being a son of god as well.

Can you two decide on whether Jesus is the god or not?

[Mayer]

It's complicated, because Jesus rose to heaven and is now forming the Holy Trinity as one aspect of God.
But I'd say he wasn't literally god when he walked the earth, Christ legitimately wanted to convert people to await the coming of the kingdom of heaven, but to the horror of his disciples he had to carry the cross. This ultimate sacrifice not only washed away the sins, it is the tragic base on which christian faith rose to dominance.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

Well did He not make Himself a lttle lower than the angels to come amongst us? Did that make Him any less God? No, it only showed His power to do anything that He wanted and this He did whilst remaining 100% being God even in His manhood. The only separation from that came when He made Himself our substitute by becoming us in our sin hence the cry, " My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken Me?" In those hours the whole wrath of God was poired out onto Him why? Because the Father saw sin, the sin of man, hanging on that tree and His justice had to be served and it was served on that broken body as it hung there. That substitution only stopped when He cried out, " It is finished," giving up the Ghost and dying. If he had not become us as a substitute would He have died? No, because He was/is God and being sinless in His own Being that couldn't happen but becoming us by substitution it became possible and factual. He knew all along that His existence as a man would lead to that eventful day and yet tempted as a man He never ran from it, why? Because being God, He believed the Father would raise Him back to life, back to the Glory He left to become a man. So, imagine if you can the joy that every person saved by that blood will feel the very day He returns to gather them all in to be at long last with Him?

[PointOfViewGun]

It's complicated, because Jesus rose to heaven and is now forming the Holy Trinity as one aspect of God.
But I'd say he wasn't literally god when he walked the earth, Christ legitimately wanted to convert people to await the coming of the kingdom of heaven, but to the horror of his disciples he had to carry the cross. This ultimate sacrifice not only washed away the sins, it is the tragic base on which christian faith rose to dominance.

PointOfViewGun,

Well did He not make Himself a lttle lower than the angels to come amongst us? Did that make Him any less God? No, it only showed His power to do anything that He wanted and this He did whilst remaining 100% being God even in His manhood. The only separation from that came when He made Himself our substitute by becoming us in our sin hence the cry, " My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken Me?" In those hours the whole wrath of God was poired out onto Him why? Because the Father saw sin, the sin of man, hanging on that tree and His justice had to be served and it was served on that broken body as it hung there. That substitution only stopped when He cried out, " It is finished," giving up the Ghost and dying. If he had not become us as a substitute would He have died? No, because He was/is God and being sinless in His own Being that couldn't happen but becoming us by substitution it became possible and factual. He knew all along that His existence as a man would lead to that eventful day and yet tempted as a man He never ran from it, why? Because being God, He believed the Father would raise Him back to life, back to the Glory He left to become a man. So, imagine if you can the joy that every person saved by that blood will feel the very day He returns to gather them all in to be at long last with Him?

Can you two first hug it out?

[Common Soldier]

It's complicated, because Jesus rose to heaven and is now forming the Holy Trinity as one aspect of God.
But I'd say he wasn't literally god when he walked the earth, Christ legitimately wanted to convert people to await the coming of the kingdom of heaven, but to the horror of his disciples he had to carry the cross. This ultimate sacrifice not only washed away the sins, it is the tragic base on which christian faith rose to dominance.

While historically some Christians.havw held.such a view, the vast majority of Christians havw reject you view from arund the 4th century onward. I hadn't realized that some still held those beliefs.

I would like to point out that your opinion goes against what the Gospel of John specifically says in its opening chapter, where it it says 'In the beginning was the Word'. John and some of Paul's letters make it quite clear that Jesus.was God even before he was born. That is probably why the belief that Jesus was always God even before he was born became the predominant Christian belief. While some.of the other.New Testament books could bd interpreted as supporting your belief, the Gospe of John, and Philipians 2:6 would rule out such a view.

[Common Soldier]

Can you two first hug it out?

I don't know why it is important to you, since your obvious readings on the subject would have revealed ro you what Christians overwhelmingly believe on the topic.

There will always be a few that hold some minority view when your are the largest world religion with 2 billion followers. Muslims don't agree on the simple question as to whether Satan was an angel or not. Even the Koran verse you cited could be interpreted as saying Satan was an angel. That Satan was also a Jinn is true, but the Koran never explicitly says that an angel cannot not also be a Jinn.

[Mayer]

I'm sorry but Arianism just makes more sense to me, heresy or not. I have also a hard time believing in miracles just like most people these days.

If Jesus has been god forever you indeed run into the problem that he isn't really sacrificing much and is pointlessly suffering which he could end at any moment, like Satan says why didn't he provide for his needs. Jesus seems needlessly masoschistic.

[Common Soldier]

I'm sorry but Arianism just makes more sense to me, heresy or not. I have also a hard time believing in miracles just like most people these days.

If you don't believe in miracles, then why belisve Jesus is God at all? It would make more sense ro belisve was just a man in that regard.

If Jesus has been god forever you indeed run into the problem that he isn't really sacrificing much and is pointlessly suffering which he could end at any moment, like Satan says why didn't he provide for his needs. Jesus seems needlessly masoschistic.

It was a real.sacrifice to become human in the first place, and to limit himself as a finite human is a major sacrifice. The suffering is not poiness, because it allows him to emphasize greater with mortal humans. The example of temptations of Satan was to show.that Jesus great powers were not for his own personal benefits, but to further God's will.. Jesus needed to show.he was mazter of his human desires - basic desires like hinger, but also other desires, like.that for fame and power. Jesus demonstrated his ability to put God's will and plan ahead of his own desires, so.the temptations were quite necessary. Unlike Adam and Eve, who fell to temptation, Jesus did not. Jesus is the second Adam who succeeds where the first Adam failed..

[basics]

I don't think the other half quite understand Who Jesus Christ is so let's begin. To begin with He lives in pure light and so at the beginning of our existence He creates darkness as well as a planet covered by water around which the Holy Spirit hovers, or as the Hebrew also means flutters which gives a greater idea of the action to take place. After creating everything needed for mankind to survive He then creates man and does so in His own image. All that took just six wonderful days and on the seventh He rested. The next crucial step was to introduce a garden within creation, a garden I say was a type and shadow of where He reigns in glory, why? Because the earth and all its surroundings were not Spiritual, rather a fragile copy of heavenly things and He knew exactly what would happen in it, the very reason He was even then, " The Lamb of God sacrificed before the foundations of the world." So we find Him walking and talking with Adam in the garden and later we find Him in the form of Melchizadec engaged with Abraham, and later again we find Him wrestling with Jacob. David was given to see Him talking to the Father as is written in the Psalms so it's not as though Jesus Christ never made an entrance into human life until He became a human, all this being authorised by His Father.

To those that believe it took Him billions of years to make all things then surely it must follow that His return will be in billions of years and that is just stupid. After six thousand odd years, six being the number of man, we are now approaching the number of perfection and that in my estimation is when He shall return. It was not for nothing that numbers play a significant role in the Hebrew language and how our Bible, especially the KJV is so significant. Jesus Christ has no beginning nor no end because He is God.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't think the other half quite understand Who Jesus Christ is so let's begin. To begin with He lives in pure light and so at the beginning of our existence He creates darkness as well as a planet covered by water around which the Holy Spirit hovers, or as the Hebrew also means flutters which gives a greater idea of the action to take place. After creating everything needed for mankind to survive He then creates man and does so in His own image. All that took just six wonderful days and on the seventh He rested. The next crucial step was to introduce a garden within creation, a garden I say was a type and shadow of where He reigns in glory, why? Because the earth and all its surroundings were not Spiritual, rather a fragile copy of heavenly things and He knew exactly what would happen in it, the very reason He was even then, " The Lamb of God sacrificed before the foundations of the world." So we find Him walking and talking with Adam in the garden and later we find Him in the form of Melchizadec engaged with Abraham, and later again we find Him wrestling with Jacob. David was given to see Him talking to the Father as is written in the Psalms so it's not as though Jesus Christ never made an entrance into human life until He became a human, all this being authorised by His Father.

To those that believe it took Him billions of years to make all things then surely it must follow that His return will be in billions of years and that is just stupid. After six thousand odd years, six being the number of man, we are now approaching the number of perfection and that in my estimation is when He shall return. It was not for nothing that numbers play a significant role in the Hebrew language and how our Bible, especially the KJV is so significant. Jesus Christ has no beginning nor no end because He is God.

You need to start backing your statements with references to the scripture. Have you read the Bible?

[Mayer]

@Common Soldier:
It's a reasonable proposition to think that most of the miracles were embellishments of the gospel. Like excorcising ghosts, multiplying bread, turning water to whine (which sounds like rip-off of Dionysos who did it first).

And one can believe in god but not miracles. To me at least, the existence of the world is a miracle but i don't see any miracles in it.

@basics:
So Jesus Christ is now the creator as well? How does that make any sense, as he would be the son of himself. How could he live the ordinary life of a carpenter in Galilee when he was also god and had a godly amount of knowledge about the world since creation? It doesn't add up.

[Common Soldier]

@Common Soldier:
It's a reasonable proposition to think that most of the miracles were embellishments of the gospel. Like excorcising ghosts, multiplying bread, turning water to whine (which sounds like rip-off of Dionysos who did it first).

Please cite the ancient source thwt predates the Gospel of John where it specifically states Dionysius.turned water into wine. People often make claims like that which turn out not have any basis in fact. I havs yet to see an ancient source making that claim.

There is no evidence of Dionysius feeding 5000 either just on a few loaves of bread either. While miracles are possibly an embellishment, if you believe in the concept of god I don't see why god couldn't perform miracles.

And one can believe in god but not miracles. To me at least, the existence of the world is a miracle but i don't see any miracles in it.

If one believes in god, then I don't see a problem believing miracles can happen. Whether miracles actually occur is another matter, believing they can happen doesn't mean they do happen. Bur yournconcept of god must be very weak if they can#t perform any miracles.

@basics:
So Jesus Christ is now the creator as well? How does that make any sense, as he would be the son of himself. How could he live the ordinary life of a carpenter in Galilee when he was also god and had a godly amount of knowledge about the world since creation? It doesn't add up.

Quantum physics does not add up to your logic either, yet it is. How can particle be one place then another, without traveling in the between? Yet it happens in qunatum physics. Or that a particle is neithet in one place or another until uou actually measure it. Or that measuring thr property of one particle can instantly affect the properties of a second particle no matter how far it is away. The laws of physics often confound human expectations, but they are, regardless if they make sense or not.

As for the mechanism of how an infinite being could take on a finite form, it is likely beyond human understanding, but like quantum physics it simply is. The Gospel of John of and letters of Paul make it clear that Jesus was God and man. Of course, ifnyounwant to dismiss what the New Testament says whenever it disagrees with your viewpoint, then it means that the Jesus and god you believe in is merely one of your own imagination. If you don't understand quantum physics, that does not make it any less true.

[Mayer]

Just because you add quantum doesn't mean you can handwave anything. These laws of physics only exist because the human mind through its sheer ingenuity has found that the observable universe operates under universal laws. This world is like a clockwork, it's complicated but it is logically consistent. Which leads me to my next point:
Modern humans are much less baffled about the world around them, we live with technological marvels. Therefore these flowery metaphors from goat farmers in the desert become more and more distant to us.

And it doesn't need science to come to the conclusion that Jesus being god and man at the same time makes no sense. He has either reduced himself to live as human when he came to earth, or he is just a avatar of god who pretends to be human and fools the mortals around him. I find the latter answer unacceptable.

[Common Soldier]

Just because you add quantum doesn't mean you can handwave anything. These laws of physics only exist because the human mind through its sheer ingenuity has found that the observable universe operates under universal laws. This world is like a clockwork, it's complicated but it is logically consistent. Which leads me to my next point:
Modern humans are much less baffled about the world around them, we live with technological marvels. Therefore these flowery metaphors from goat farmers in the desert become more and more distant to us.

And it doesn't need science to come to the conclusion that Jesus being god and man at the same time makes no sense. He has either reduced himself to live as human when he came to earth, or he is just a avatar of god who pretends to be human and fools the mortals around him. I find the latter answer unacceptable.

And simply because because something doesn't make sense to you does not mean it doesn't make sense. You assertion that it can't make sense because you can't understand it is not a valid argument. Clearly more than a billion people don't share your opinion, and your opinions go against what Jesus himself said. Jesus said in the Gospel of John 8:58 that before Abraham he was, which clearly rules out your opinion - Jesus says he existed before he was born as a human being. Also, the Letter to thr Philippines 2:6-7 also rulez out yor views as well.

Of course, if you want to dismiss anything in the New Testament that you don't agree with you can handwave away anything you don't like in the same way, leaving you only with a Jesus that conforms entirely to your opinion, making your Jesus nothing more than a figment of your mid, not a real person at all.

You stated your opinion, an opinion that Christians had considered and overwhelmingly rejected over the centuries. Your actions are the same as Muslims, who claim thd Bible is corrupted everytime it disagrees with what the Koran says and Muslim believes, despite a complete lack there of biblical manuscript evidence to back up their claims. That is one of the big differences of Christianity and Islam, in that Christianity accepts the Jewish Tanakh in its entirity as is, while Islams does not accept eithet the Tanakh or thr New Testament, but only some version that never actually existed as far as we have any evidence for.

[basics]

@Common Soldier:
It's a reasonable proposition to think that most of the miracles were embellishments of the gospel. Like excorcising ghosts, multiplying bread, turning water to whine (which sounds like rip-off of Dionysos who did it first).

And one can believe in god but not miracles. To me at least, the existence of the world is a miracle but i don't see any miracles in it.

@basics:
So Jesus Christ is now the creator as well? How does that make any sense, as he would be the son of himself. How could he live the ordinary life of a carpenter in Galilee when he was also god and had a godly amount of knowledge about the world since creation? It doesn't add up.

Mayer,

If you read carefully about the conception of Jesus Christ one can see that since Jesus Christ already exists your question raises some value because no -one can father himself. So what happened at His conception, Him already in existence from everlasting to everlasting? Mary's body was prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive inside her womb God prepared to become a human baby. In other words He took up union with an egg prepared by the Holy Spirit to become a human baby. What Mary experienced was something quite outside any human experience because she had never known a man sexually. Just what the angel had told her came to pass, she was bearing God to be with us in human form yet still being God. Joseph was to say the least quite overwhelmed when he found out she was pregnant but accepted it all after the angel appeared to him saying that what was happening was of God and so he accepted the role of fatherhood to Jesus in accordance to God's will hence Jesus being known as the son of a carpenter in the surrounding districts.

Around the same time there was another Supernatural act being played out and that was with mary's cousin Elizabeth who past child bearing age conceived John eventually called the Baptist. She was about three months further on than Mary when the latter visited her and it was on that visit that we see a conection made between the two babies. Elizabeth experienced John jumping in her womb at the approach of Mary, Elizabeth declaring that Mary was carrying her Lord by he baby's reaction at the approach of Mary. John's father had been told that his son would be the forerunner, the Herald, announcing the coming Messias so we can see the connection when the two women met. So before Jesus started His ministry John was already at work announcing it. Whilst Jesus was learning Joseph's trade John was already in the wilderness proclaiming the coming kingdom. The thing about Jesus was that He too attracted attention by conversing with the leaders in the synagogues the family attended Him being a mere carpenter's son. His knowledge regarding the Scriptures then didn't go un-noticed. Why so? Because His time to declare Himself had not yet come in accordance to the will of His Father in heaven. That day came when He had John baptise Him and Divine authority was declared on Him by the saying from above, " This is My beloved Son, in Whom I Am well pleased."