Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

God pronounced all mankind as being under the rule of Satan and sin. In doing so He made it impossible for anyone to enter heaven unless the Law was upheld, unless blood was shed for sin. The only Persons outside of the Law was God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that is why Jesus Christ came into the world as a man, but a sinless man. If a person dies in their sin they cannot enter heaven even by shedding their own blood. The Law requires a person be free of sin before he or she can enter heaven and only the blood of Jesus Christ was sinless meaning that the Law could only be satisfied inside mankind by God the Son becoming a man. So, was the cross just a show? Much more than that I say because He became on it the substitute for every sinner He would save from sin. He paid the price the Law demanded for sin by becoming them in their sin on that cross. The Muslim relies on God having mercy on his dead but once dead there can be no mercy, why? Because no-one dying a sinner can enter heaven whether Muslim or anyone else. Only by the blood of Jesus Christ is anyone made safe from the Law. In fact the Law was made to point man to Jesus Christ. He by His death and resurrection was therefore able to bring in a New Covenant thus making salvation from sin not just a possiblity but a reality.

Now if all this is senseless how does a Muslim get into heaven. He is under the Law like anyone else. He has no Saviour because he is told that Jesus never died on a cross, is not God and so by lying, cheathing, raping, killing or stealing these are his good works? On that basis God will have mercy on him? Now that's senseless don't you think?

Yup, your opening statements right there acknowledge collective guilt. Yes, from the mainstream Christian perspective of the cross was a show. Jesus had nothing to sacrifice. He was god. Sacrifice is something someone can make if they have finite resources. Jesus didn't. You're also trying to judge Islam based on what Christianity says. If god is the judge of all then he can let whoever he wants into heaven regardless of whether they have sinned or not. Pointing out how your made up rules for getting into heaven doesn't make sense doesn't really have an effect on Muslims. There isn't much to say if all you have going for your position are these faulty logic attempts.

[Common Soldier]

Yup, your opening statements right there acknowledge collective guilt. Yes, from the mainstream Christian perspective of the cross was a show. Jesus had nothing to sacrifice. He was god. Sacrifice is something someone can make if they have finite resources. Jesus didn't.

That is where you are fundamentally wrong. Jesus was God, yes, but he was also fully human as well, and his human nature was finite. To give up his human side was sacrifice. In fact, Jesus showed great sacrifice when he became human as well. - it was a major sacrifice for Jesus to become human, to even temporarily give up his divine estate. In Philippines 2:6-7 "Who being in nature God, did not think equality with God something to be used ro.his own advantage; rather he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness". Being made human was a big sacrifice, as was his human death in such a violent manner.

You're also trying to judge Islam based on what Christianity says. If god is the judge of all then he can let whoever he wants into heaven regardless of whether they have sinned or not. Pointing out how your made up rules for getting into heaven doesn't make sense doesn't really have an effect on Muslims. There isn't much to say if all you have going for your position are these faulty logic attempts.

And you are equally trying to judge Christianity by what Islam says. If God is to be consistent with his own esablished rules, he can't do anything he wants and still be consistent wirh his own nature. That is the abritrary Allah of Islam who does that. You can see the nature of Allah in his own sacred book, the Korsn, which is organized neither chronologically or by topic, but rathet a jumble of sayings and commands that are organized neither by theme or.chronologically. Which is why Muslims rely so heavily on sources outside the Koran, the Hadith and the Siras, to make sense of it.

The more logical, rational Christian God isn't going to act against his nature without good justification. He physically could, but he won't, since that would be behaving like the arbitrary Allah. Even if we don't always understand his reasons, he does have them. Unlike the chaotically arranged Koran, the Bible is laid out in an overall logical chronological order, with themes and topic logically grouped together. So the Gospels are all grouped together, the letters of Paul grouped together, and the Bible starts with Genesis, describing thr beginning of the world, and ends with Revelations, describing the end of the world and its new beginning. Since Allah's own sacred book is so arbitrarily arranged, it is little wonder you would expect Allah to behave arbitrarily as well.

[Common Soldier]

If god is the judge of all then he can let whoever he wants into heaven regardless of whether they have sinned or not.

Yet Islam teaches in the hadiths regarded as good, in Sahih Muslim 2767 a,b,d that the sins of Muslims would be place on Jews and Christians on the Day of Judgement. Allah didn't just forgive the sins of Muslims, he merely transfered them to Jews and Christians.

There will come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah of will forgive them, and He would place in their stead Jews and Christians.
Sahih Muslim 2767 d /Book 37 Hadith 6668 https://sunnah.com/muslim/50

Pointing out how your made up rules for getting into heaven doesn't make sense doesn't really have an effect on Muslims. There isn't much to say if all you have going for your position are these faulty logic attempts.

You own words proclaim Islam doesn't make sense, since trusted sources of Islam say Allah will do exactly the same thing, except that instead of placing the sins on Jesus, who voluntarily took on the sins of the whole world, Allah according to Islam's most trusted sourcs will place sins of others (Muslims) on hapless Jews and Christians who had no say in the matter. If Christian doctrine makes no sense, Muslim teaching is absurd by your own standard.

You say that God could simply forgive the sins, no sacrifice was needed, yet Muslim's own trusted sources say that Allah will place the sins of Muslims on Jews and Christians, Allah didn't just ignore the sins or just forgive them. Jesus voluntarily chose to take on sins of others, unlike the poor Jews and Christians Allah chose to dump Muslims sins on, so doesn't that make Islam making even less sense?

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

No, He can't let anyone into heaven, why? Because His Law forbids it. The sins of entrants must be erazed before they die else they die in their sin making heaven a no go area. As Jesus Christ said, " A man must be born again to enter heaven," that by the Spirit of God. That is why it took pure blood, the blood of Jesus Christ, sinless blood to appease the Law. One cannot get past the Law if one is a sinner, the very reason Jesus Christ fulfilled it by going on the cross to die for the sins of many. He paid their price for their sins and all they had to do was believe on Him. He is the mercy that God provided for sinners, why? Because as God He became a man, a man ordained before the worlds were made, to be the, " Lamb of God sacrificed before the foundations of the worlds." There's nothing more logical and nothing less hidden than that. There's no maybe's about it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

No, He can't let anyone into heaven, why? Because His Law forbids it. The sins of entrants must be erazed before they diChrie else they die in their sin making heaven a no go area. As Jesus Christ said, " A man must be born again to enter heaven," that by the Spirit of God. That is why it took pure blood, the blood of Jesus Christ, sinless blood to appease the Law. One cannot get past the Law if one is a sinner, the very reason Jesus st fulfilled it by going on the cross to die for the sins of many. He paid their price for their sins and all they had to do was believe on Him. He is the mercy that God provided for sinners, why? Because as God He became a man, a man ordained before the worlds were made, to be the, " Lamb of God sacrificed before the foundations of the worlds." There's nothing more logical and nothing less hidden than that. There's no maybe's about it. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

He is said to be god. He is beyond law. It's all arbitrary. No other man or god can pay for the sins of an other. What Jesus did doesn't erase away your sins. He could simply say "believe in me I'll let you into the heaven" and it would have the same effect. He was said to be god. His death meant nothing as he had the power to be human and the power to come back to life. It's no sacrifice what he did according to Bible. Hence, there is no logic in what you're trying to argue. It's like an immortal president with a time machine jailing himself for someone else while having the power to grant immunity. It's no sacrifice.

[Common Soldier]

He is said to be god. He is beyond law. It's all arbitrary.

Allah of Islam is arbitary, the God of Christianity is not. It is thr arbitrary nature of Allah in Islam which is why Islam never developed modern science.

God is not beyond his own self imposed law. God chooses to obey his on laws. Laws are unfair if they don't apply to all. In Islam, Allah and his special messenger did not.live by the same rules as as everybody else. Men could have only 4 wives, except for Muhammad alone, who naturally could have more, for example. It is alien to Muslims for a god to follow their own rules, since Allah is ignoring or changing his own rules on a whim. Allah couldn#t even give directions that lasted more than 20 years without.replacing them.

It's all arbitrary. No other man or god can pay for the sins of an other. What Jesus did doesn't erase away your sins. He could simply say "believe in me I'll let you into the heaven" and it would have the same effect. He was said to be god. His death meant nothing as he had the power to be human and the power to come back to life. It's no sacrifice what he did according to Bible. Hence, there is no logic in what you're trying to argue. It's like an immortal president with a time machine jailing himself for someone else while having the power to grant immunity. It's no sacrifice.

Your argument fails, since as I have shown Islam has people (Jews and Christians) payi ng for the sins of others (Muslims) based on Islam's own most trusted sources. In fact in Islam it is worse, since these people who pay the sins of others are not volunteers.

And even if thr sacrifice is only temporary, it is still a sacrifice. A person who sacrifices to save up money to send their children to college is still sacrificing, even though it is only temporary and they don't need to sacrice after their kids are through college. The parent still sacrificed, even it the sacrifice was only temporary for several years.

[basics]

He is said to be god. He is beyond law. It's all arbitrary. No other man or god can pay for the sins of an other. What Jesus did doesn't erase away your sins. He could simply say "believe in me I'll let you into the heaven" and it would have the same effect. He was said to be god. His death meant nothing as he had the power to be human and the power to come back to life. It's no sacrifice what he did according to Bible. Hence, there is no logic in what you're trying to argue. It's like an immortal president with a time machine jailing himself for someone else while having the power to grant immunity. It's no sacrifice.

PointOfViewGun,

Well if that's the case how can God permit them to get into heaven without the shedding of blood? Just think, millions of Muslims are not in paradise, rather hell, because no god can pay for the sins of man. How can just letting them in have the same effect because the very Law that God instituted makes it plain that no-one in sin can enter heaven. The only way round it for God was to provide a Substitute Who could satisfy the Law which He did in Jesus Christ way before the worlds were made. You see this is not about man, rather about the power of God over all creation, man being but a player in the story made by God for His good pleasure. Jesus Christ is coming back to finalise the gritty details by creating a new world and casting all His detractors into a living hell. In those days " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Yes all mankind, from the beginning of the world until its end will bow the knee, even Mohammed.

[conon394]

Allah of Islam is arbitary, the God of Christianity is not. It is thr arbitrary nature of Allah in Islam which is why Islam never developed modern science.

Err I am only tangentially interested in this thread but your statement is ridiculous. The god of the Bible is completely arbitrary and more often than not acts like a toddler. I mean I not trying to be offensive. But it starts silly and arbitrary and adds to along the way.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

Well if that's the case how can God permit them to get into heaven without the shedding of blood? Just think, millions of Muslims are not in paradise, rather hell, because no god can pay for the sins of man. How can just letting them in have the same effect because the very Law that God instituted makes it plain that no-one in sin can enter heaven. The only way round it for God was to provide a Substitute Who could satisfy the Law which He did in Jesus Christ way before the worlds were made. You see this is not about man, rather about the power of God over all creation, man being but a player in the story made by God for His good pleasure. Jesus Christ is coming back to finalise the gritty details by creating a new world and casting all His detractors into a living hell. In those days " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Yes all mankind, from the beginning of the world until its end will bow the knee, even Mohammed.

Wow. You're asking about god's power to do something. Isn't that blasphemy to question its power's extent? Is that really the case?

Muhammad would be more than happy to bow the knee for Jesus as an other messenger of god. There is no pissing contest among them.

[basics]

Wow. You're asking about god's power to do something. Isn't that blasphemy to question its power's extent? Is that really the case?

Muhammad would be more than happy to bow the knee for Jesus as an other messenger of god. There is no pissing contest among them.

PointOfViewGun,

Would he be happy in bowing the knee to admit that Jesus Christ is Lord, is God? It's too late to save him but not too late to have to admit he was wrong about Jesus all along. Remember Jesus said that He never came to do away with the Law, rather fulfill it, this He did by going on the cross as a Redeemer God to save others from their sin by standing in for them to take their punishment as sinners. When He created all things He was God, coming to the planet as a man didn't diminish that He was still God, dying on a cross He was God and now being in Glory He is still God and so that is not blasphemous to declare, why? Because it's true. If every knee has to bow and confess that He is Lord, God, it has to be true. Opposing that we have Mohammed, a man, a sinner under the Law, who could save no-one, who is to be judged like everyone else and you try to compare him to Jesus Christ? My friend that is blasphemy. Wake up!

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

Would he be happy in bowing the knee to admit that Jesus Christ is Lord, is God? It's too late to save him but not too late to have to admit he was wrong about Jesus all along. Remember Jesus said that He never came to do away with the Law, rather fulfill it, this He did by going on the cross as a Redeemer God to save others from their sin by standing in for them to take their punishment as sinners. When He created all things He was God, coming to the planet as a man didn't diminish that He was still God, dying on a cross He was God and now being in Glory He is still God and so that is not blasphemous to declare, why? Because it's true. If every knee has to bow and confess that He is Lord, God, it has to be true. Opposing that we have Mohammed, a man, a sinner under the Law, who could save no-one, who is to be judged like everyone else and you try to compare him to Jesus Christ? My friend that is blasphemy. Wake up!

You're didn't address what I said at all. I understand you cloud the weakness and the failure of your position within your preaching. You are unable to come to terms with your positions, hence, in your time of desperation you didn't realize you were defying god's power. You defied god even within the standards of the Bible.

[Common Soldier]

You're didn't address what I said at all.

And you have not addressed anything I said in a half dozen post.

I understand you cloud the weakness and the failure of your position within your preaching. You are unable to come to terms with your positions, hence, in your time of desperation you didn't realize you were defying god's power.

I understand you didn't reapond because of the weakness failure of position. I quoted Hadiths and Surahs from the Koran, making it impossible for you to respond successfully, so the only thing you could do was ignore it. In your ignorance or desperation, you pretend to overlook that Hadiths teach the very thing you criticized in Basic's arguments, only Islam is worse. Several hadiths say others (Jews and Christians) will suffer for rhe sins of Muslims, and these hadiths were Sahih, meaning the were rated the best and most reliable of the hadiths.

I also showed the flaw in your reasoning, and assertions.

You defied god even within the standards of the Bible.

Ans you, in a manner typical of so.many Muslims, make assertions, make.assertions that are not true ans unsupported by facts. Like when Muhammad declared in Surah 9:30 that Jews claim Ezra is the Son of God, which is simply not true. Or that Mary mother of Jesus was also the sister of Aaron and Moses. Inability to respond is why Muslims are so intolerant of any criticism of Muhammad, and why Muslims kill those critical of Muhammad and Islam, something Muslims have been doing since the beginning of Islam. As in the case when Muhammad had 2 dancing girls killed merely because they criticized Muhammad.

[PointOfViewGun]

And you have not addressed anything I said in a half dozen post.

Of course, I haven't, given that I have not been in discussion with you for ten posts to be precise. I stopped taking your posts seriously when you tried to accuse me of lying about what the Bible said and then started dancing around it when I posted the exact quote from the Bible. So, carry on ranting. I haven't even read more than 90% of what you posted so far.

[Common Soldier]

Of course, I haven't, given that I have not been in discussion with you for ten posts to be precise. I stopped taking your posts seriously when you tried to accuse me of lying about what the Bible said and then started dancing around it when I posted the exact quote from the Bible. So, carry on ranting. I haven't even read more than 90% of what you posted so far.

You stopped talking to me because you could no refute what I said. You said Basic "defied god defied god even within the standards of the Bible" but naturally provided no specifics to back up that claim. Y Saying "some fruit" ans "some from the tree" hage considerably differently meaning, which you tried to petend otherwise, and falsely tried to make the passage saying the oppoiste of what Genesis was actually saying, and doesn't misrepresenting what is said count as lying?

In any case, the Koran as a tradition of not answering crticism, and just ignoring criticism instead of debating them, sonit is not surprising you do the same. For example, the Koran repeatedly (6:25, 8:31, 16:24, 46:17, 68:15, 83:13) acknowledged that critics of Muhammad stated Muhammad was just repeating ancient fables and those critics were correct - many of the stories of the Koran are just retellings of ancient myths and stories, such as rhe Koran's story of Jesus tuening clay birds into real birds (surah 5:110), a story that was found centuries before in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas, a gospel that scholars agree was written later than the canonical gospels and does not contain authentic tradition of Jesus. The Koran is full of such folk tales, such as the jinn building Solomon's Temple not realizing Solomon died while leaning on his staff until.thr staff rotted out and Solomon's fell over (Surah 34:14). (Unlike the Koran, the Bible says ordinary humans built Solomon's Temple, not supernatural beings of fire.). Ans when you accuse Basic of "defying god even within the standards of the Bible" youndon't provide any specific examples to back up what you say. Again very typical of Muhammad and rhe Moran. For example, the Koran says that Muhammad was predictdd in the Bible, but never cites any Bible versees ro back up those claims; thd Koran makes an assertion but provides no evidence to back it up. This is quite unlike Jesus, who quotes specific verses the Old Testament.

[basics]

From what I see of Islam is that it is a religion of double speak built on works and no more. One can kill, but one can't because it's a sin. One can lie but one can't because it's a sin. One can steal but one can't because it's a sin. One can rape but one can't because it's a sin. In effect that is the reason that the Muslim needs mercy but since blood is the price for sin, whose blood pays for it? Mohammed never paid for it since he was elevated without shedding a drop. Another sinner's blood cannot pay for sin because he or she is already condemned and yet still needs blood to satisfy the Law. Was there anyone born of man and woman whose blood could pay for it? Yes there was and still is such a Person and He name is Jesus Christ. Yes the very One Who is coming back to restore Justice and Righteousness but not to this world, rather a New world lit up by His Glory lasting forever. There is no other Way because no human being ever was able to satisfy the Law, Moses or natural apart from our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. It was never about man's abilities, rather God's grace that men could be saved and saved to the fullest.

[Axalon]

Friend, your many typos hurts my eyes - and even I have dyslexia - so I have decided to
clean up your post 74 somewhat. Making it a bit more "user-friendly" and all that...
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Now, it appears that Common Soldier was trying to say:

You stopped talking to me because you could no refute what I said. You said Basic "defied god even within the standards of the Bible" but naturally provided no specifics to back up that claim. Saying "some fruit" and "some from the tree" have considerably differently meaning, which you tried to pretend otherwise, and falsely tried to make the passage saying the opposite of what Genesis was actually saying, and doesn't misrepresenting what is said count as lying?

In any case, the Koran has a tradition of not answering criticism, and just ignoring criticism instead of debating them, so it is not surprising you do the same. For example, the Koran repeatedly (6:25, 8:31, 16:24, 46:17, 68:15, 83:13) acknowledged that critics of Muhammad stated Muhammad was just repeating ancient fables and those critics were correct - many of the stories of the Koran are just retellings of ancient myths and stories, such as the Koran's story of Jesus turning clay birds into real birds (surah 5:110), a story that was found centuries before in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas, a gospel that scholars agree was written later than the canonical gospels and does not contain authentic tradition of Jesus. The Koran is full of such folk-tales, such as the jinn building Solomon's Temple not realizing Solomon died while leaning on his staff until the staff rotted out and Solomon's fell over (Surah 34:14). (Unlike the Koran, the Bible says ordinary humans built Solomon's Temple, not supernatural beings of fire). And when you accuse Basic of "defying god even within the standards of the Bible" you don't provide any specific examples to back up what you say. Again very typical of Muhammad and the Koran. For example, the Koran says that Muhammad was predicted in the Bible, but never cites any Bible verses to back up those claims; the Koran makes an assertion but provides no evidence to back it up. This is quite unlike Jesus, who quotes specific verses the Old Testament.

- A

[PointOfViewGun]

From what I see of Islam is that it is a religion of double speak built on works and no more. One can kill, but one can't because it's a sin. One can lie but one can't because it's a sin. One can steal but one can't because it's a sin. One can rape but one can't because it's a sin. In effect that is the reason that the Muslim needs mercy but since blood is the price for sin, whose blood pays for it? Mohammed never paid for it since he was elevated without shedding a drop. Another sinner's blood cannot pay for sin because he or she is already condemned and yet still needs blood to satisfy the Law. Was there anyone born of man and woman whose blood could pay for it? Yes there was and still is such a Person and He name is Jesus Christ. Yes the very One Who is coming back to restore Justice and Righteousness but not to this world, rather a New world lit up by His Glory lasting forever. There is no other Way because no human being ever was able to satisfy the Law, Moses or natural apart from our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. It was never about man's abilities, rather God's grace that men could be saved and saved to the fullest.

Why are you deflecting from the fact that you argued earlier that god was incapable? You should explain those blasphemous words rather than run from them.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

Is it blasphemous to say that God is incapable of lying? Of course it's not but then your version of what I am supposed to have said will be a twisted version. So, what was it I said just so we can set the record straight?

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

Is it blasphemous to say that God is incapable of lying? Of course it's not but then your version of what I am supposed to have said will be a twisted version. So, what was it I said just so we can set the record straight?

It is actually. God can lie. You may it would not, but he has the absolute power to do it. You said that god could not permit them to enter heaven without shedding blood. You introduced requirements for gods actions. That god needed to do work arounds to get something done. That is quite blasphemous.

[RedGuard]

"Gospel of Thomas, a gospel that scholars agree was written later than the canonical gospels and does not contain authentic tradition of Jesus"

All of them were written at least a century later, they are all unauthentic