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Thread: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

  1. #1

    Default Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    In a recently closed rhread "What is Islam" the thread creator.said :

    Islam is the same the religion of Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus (peace bs upon them all) but with more detail

    While the above statement expresses what many, most Muslims, I challenge the accuracy of thre above starment, both in the claim that Islam is the same religion as Moses and Jesus, and rhar it has more detail.

    1. "The same" religion:

    What is meant by the "same religion" is open ro interpretation. Jesus.was a Jew, and believed as divinely inspire and aurhoritive rhe Old Testament as we have it today and lived and practiced as a Jew, including celebrating Jewish festivals and holy days such as Passover. Islam does not celdbrate these Jewish holidays, nor does it follow Jewish customs, nor does Islam accept the Old Testament that Jesus beliieved in. The Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from around the time of Jesus, is essenrially the same as today's Old Testament and contradicts the Koran and what Muslims believe in a numbsr of major points. For exampe, unlike the Koran and what Muslims believe, it was Isaac, not Ishmael, that God.commanded Abraham ro offer as a sacrifice.(God was just testing Abraham, and did not allow.the sacrifice), for example. The oft made Muslim claim that the Old and New Testament were corrupted anx changes is not supported by the evidence - there was never any versions od rhe Bible that support what Muslims claimed. I

    Simply because a religion borrows, plagarizes and rips off elements of another religion does not make it the as the religion it is plagarizing. Jesus appears in the Manichaeism, but Manichaeism did not evolve from Christianity, and no scholar thinks Manichaeism is the same religion as Christianity. Christianity was popular at the time of Mani, founder of Manichaeism, and so he incorporated some of the teachings of Jesus, and Buddha and Zoroaster into religions. Likewise, Hong Xiaquan, who claimed to Jesus' younger brother, incorporated Christian elements along with beliefz of tradirional Chinese relifions into his movement, but was never a Christian. Because Muhammad borrowed heavily from the 2 mosr popular religions of his time, Judaism and Chrisrianity, does not make Islam the same as them, any more than Manichaeism is the same as Christianity. Most Muslims would reject the claim that the Baha'i fairh is the same religion as Islam. Many Christians and Jews feel about Muslims claim that Islam is thd same religion as Muslims would feel if adherents to Baha'i said it was the same Islam.


    2. The claim that Islam gave more detail is also a debatable point. Thr Koran includes none of Jesus actual teachings, no "turn the other cheek", "love your neighbor as yourself", "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "forgive those who sin against you", "judge not (others) lest you be judged", "those who live by the swoed shall die by the sword", nor any of Jesus wonderful parables like Good Samaritan. Nor any of the details of Jesus healing miracles given, no details of giving sight to the blind, of how he made rhe lame.walk. There is nothing like the story of Jesus healing the epilectic boy in Mark 9:14- 29 to be found in the Koran. The desperate father who is at his wits end comes to Jesus begging for help, asking Jesus to have pity and heal his boy if Jesus can, which Jesus tells the father all things are possible to those who believe, at which point the believes and ask Jesus to overcome his doubts. It tells believers the important point that if you want God to perform miracles you need to have fairh God perform miracles, a detail the Koran leaves out. Unlike the Gospels, the Koran tells us neither why a particular was performed or rhe lesson associated with the miracle.

    And rhe Koran tells us nothing about Jesus arrest, trial or crucifixion. While the Koran asserts that Jesus wasn't crucified or died on the cross (a claim contradicted by everybody else, Christians, Jews, and pagans), it gives us no details of how that happened. In contrast to Islam's assertion without details, the Gospels give a kinds of details. We are told when Jesus was arrested (very early Friday*), when his trial and execution (Friday at the time of Passover), who tried him and who executed him (Pontius Pilate, and the Roman soldiers). Islam has less details, not more.

    That that Islam gives less details is not surprising, since rhd Koran is only as long as the New Testament, but has to cover Old Testament, New Testament, and the time of Muhammad. Worse, not only is the Koran much shorter than thd Bible, but it waste space giving directions on how to divide up inheritance that has no relevance outside of 7th Arabia, and tells us nothing about the divine nature or character of the eternal almighty God. Islam tells us nothing that Jews and Christians didn't already know.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; April 20, 2020 at 11:33 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Main differences that comes to my mind are the following two:

    Jesus is regarded as just an other prophet in Quran, albeit an important one. While in Christianity Jesus is regarded as the son of God and basically God itself, Islam, while keeping the virgin birth aspect, doesn't put that important distinction on Jesus as it regards it as human.

    There is no Original Sin concept in Quran. While the Bible puts the blame for eating the apple to Eve, Quran puts the blame equally on both Adam and Eve. The idea that all men are sinful because of the apple doesn't exist in the Quran as well. People are responsible for their own actions.

    What perhaps makes Islam same as Judaism and Christianity is not that anyone claiming it to be 100% the same but that Muhammad is seen as the last prophet of a continuation of prophets that span out in records of Judaism and Christianity. The more proper wording would be that Islam is the latest edition of Judaism and Christianity.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    All three broadly defined religions are heirs to a mass on Near Eastern beliefs, stories, attitudes and texts, influenced by Hellenism and now modern thought, as well as echoing around between one another, with a jumble of other influences. They share the figure of Abraham as the dealmaker with God, retconned as a montheist.

    They are not the "same religion" but within each stream there are subsets that deny (for example) that other Christians are actually christian etc.

    As the nominally "oldest" brother Judaism gets to bully the others as deviant from the true path, but modern Rabbinic Judaism might not be recognisable to say Nehemiah let alone David.

    Christianity claims to complete Judaism and Islam claims to complete the other two, but these too deviate in shades of thesis and praxis from historical antecedents and the texts they claim as fundamental.

    I'd say they are all the same religion in that they are heirs to the great near Eastern religious tradition and share key figures and have conversed down the centuries: each recognises some truth in the other to an extent, even as they try to deny it. Also they are not the same religion, but as I say, neither are they themselves the religion they claim to be.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Main differences that comes to my mind are the following two:

    Jesus is regarded as just an other prophet in Quran, albeit an important one. While in Christianity Jesus is regarded as the son of God and basically God itself, Islam, while keeping the virgin birth aspect, doesn't put that important distinction on Jesus as it regards it as human.

    There is no Original Sin concept in Quran. While the Bible puts the blame for eating the apple to Eve, Quran puts the blame equally on both Adam and Eve. The idea that all men are sinful because of the apple doesn't exist in the Quran as well. People are responsible for their own actions.

    What perhaps makes Islam same as Judaism and Christianity is not that anyone claiming it to be 100% the same but that Muhammad is seen as the last prophet of a continuation of prophets that span out in records of Judaism and Christianity. The more proper wording would be that Islam is the latest edition of Judaism and Christianity.
    Adam voluntarily ate the fruit, Eve didn't force him and God punished both Adam and Eve. Paul blames Adam for sin and death entering the world in Romans 5:12, not Eve.

    And Islam is not the continuaion of Judaism and Chrisianity, any more than Manichaeism is the continuation of Christianity or the Bah'ai fairh is the continuation of Islam. Simply because a religion borrows elements of another religion, doesn't make it continuation of the religion it is plagarizing. Simply becaue Islam ripped off elements from Judaism and Christianity does not make it a continuation. Unlike Christinaity, whose Old Testament is the same as the Jewish Tanahk, and whose earliest memebers were all Jews as was its founder, the Koran stories are not the same as either Jewish and Christian scriptures and differs from them in basic and fundamental ways. The only stories of Jesus in the Koran are those stories Christians reject as in authentic, and the stories of Old Testament characters in the Koran come from folk tales rather than the Old Testament itself.

    Nor was Muhammad ever either a Jew or Christian. Like Hong Xuaquan, who borrowed from both Christianity and native Chinese religions and claimed to Jesus' younger brother, Muhannad from the 2 most popular religions of his time combined it with native Arabic traditions. But that does not make it a continuation of Christisnity, anymore than if I borrowed from the Koran and claim to be a new prophet sent after Muhammad with some addiional message and clarifications onfrom Allah would make my religion a continuation as Islam.


    PS - I do think Islam is related to Judaism and Christianity, but that does not make it a continuation of the 2. Since Judaims and Christianity were the 2 most popular religions of Muhammad's time, it made sense for Muhammad to borrow from them.when creating his religion.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; April 11, 2020 at 08:17 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Adam voluntarily ate the fruit, Eve didn't force him and God punished both Adam and Eve. Paul blames Adam for sin and death entering the world in Romans 5:12, not Eve.

    And Islam is not the continuaion of Judaism and Chrisianity, any more than Manichaeism is the continuation of Christianity or the Bah'ai fairh is the continuation of Islam. Simply because a religion borrows elements of another religion, doesn't make it continuation of the religion it is plagarizing. Simply becaue Islam ripped off elements from Judaism and Christianity does not make it a continuation. Unlike Christinaity, whose Old Testament is the same as the Jewish Tanahk, and whose earliest memebers were all Jews as was its founder, the Koran stories are not the same as either Jewish and Christian scriptures and differs from them in basic and fundamental ways. The only stories of Jesus in the Koran are those stories Christians reject as in authentic, and the stories of Old Testament characters in the Koran come from folk tales rather than the Old Testament itself.

    Nor was Muhammad ever either a Jew or Christian. Like Hong Xuaquan, who borrowed from both Christianity and native Chinese religions and claimed to Jesus' younger brother, Muhannad from the 2 most popular religions of his time combined it with native Arabic traditions. But that does not make it a continuation of Christisnity, anymore than if I borrowed from the Koran and claim to be a new prophet sent after Muhammad with some addiional message and clarifications onfrom Allah would make my religion a continuation as Islam.

    PS - I do think Islam is related to Judaism and Christianity, but that does not make it a continuation of the 2. Since Judaims and Christianity were the 2 most popular religions of Muhammad's time, it made sense for Muhammad to borrow from them.when creating his religion.
    Romans 5:12 is a good example of how the Bible holds everyone responsible for what Adam did but it doesn't show that Eve wasn't the main culprit. In Genesis 3, it is Eve that the serpent gets to eat the fruit first. She gives it to Adam. When god shows up Adam blames Eve for hiving him fruit to eat.

    If you don't see Islam as the continuation of Christianity, then Christianity is not the continuation of Judaism. Just because Christians "plagiarized" the Old Testament completely or that its earlier members were Jews doesn't really grant it continuation rights. You may see Islam as false but it is regarded as the continuation of Christianity because Quran claims it to be, just like Christians see Christianity as the continuation of Judaism because Bible claims it to be.

    Paganism was the dominant religion in pre-Islamic Arabia where Muhammad originated from. By your logic, it would make more sense if he grounded his religion on paganism. He didn't.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Quran puts the blame equally on both Adam and Eve.
    How does it put the blame equally on both?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    but it waste space giving directions on how to divide up inheritance that has no relevance outside of 7th Arabia,
    A bit unfair because you know the bible never wastes time telling us how semitic sheep herders ares supposed run their daily laws... Also you gotta admit a good editor would reduced the redundancy of the NT and or the contradictions. Also frankly once you are not Jewish but Christian Roman/neoplatonic-ised you really could all the begats out into a some other book since they really don't matter anymore.

    I not sure why you are arguing since of course the first pillar of Islam makes it clear Islam is well neither Christian in any form nor being a Jew. They are the same I suppose in so far as the mythology accepts the same general origin story, Abraham and what not. So does the LDS adds but again to itself its not the same. You are right Manichaeism is different as well but related I mean the fact of the serpent in the garden does strike me as a sort of dualism in early Judaism otherwise one wonders how such an all powerful fell asleep at the wheel. Anyway I surprised you have not mentioned Gnosticism yet it seems a better close relative than Manichaeism
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Also, in Islam, the Satan is a jinn, not a fallen angel like it is in Christianity. In Islam, angels have no free will as they're a manifestation of Allah's will. Jinns do have free will, hence, he was able to not bow to Adam.


    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    How does it put the blame equally on both?
    In Genesis 3, you see how the serpent directs Eve to eat the apple, after which Eve gives it to Adam. In conversation with god, Adam points out it was Eve that gave him the fruit. None of that exists in Quran.

    Quran doesn't have that distinction:

    7:19-23 And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers." But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal." And he swore [by Allah ] to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors." So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?" They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."
    On the original sin concept from Quran:
    17:15 Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; April 12, 2020 at 07:32 AM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    In Genesis 3, you see how the serpent directs Eve to eat the apple, after which Eve gives it to Adam. In conversation with god, Adam points out it was Eve that gave him the fruit. None of that exists in Quran.
    Yes, in Genesis 3 Adam blames the woman and God. The woman blames the serpent.
    Seems like the characters are trying to avoid responsibility.
    In the Quran 7, they they don't blame each other. And seem to accept responsibility.
    While 2:37 blame is put on Satan:
    "Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.""
    So how is blame put on the two equally? Is it that neither blames the other and the Quran blames Satan?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Yes, in Genesis 3 Adam blames the woman and God. The woman blames the serpent.
    Seems like the characters are trying to avoid responsibility.
    In the Quran 7, they they don't blame each other. And seem to accept responsibility.
    While 2:37 blame is put on Satan:
    "Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.""
    So how is blame put on the two equally? Is it that neither blames the other and the Quran blames Satan?
    It puts the blame equally on Adam and Eve by not making a distinction between who ate it first or who made the other eat the fruit. Not sure how mentioning Satan's role in it somehow shifts the blame away from Adam and Eve if thats what you're trying to point at. Adam and Eve, as the first humans, were responsible equally for eating the fruit.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It puts the blame equally on Adam and Eve by not making a distinction between who ate it first or who made the other eat the fruit. Not sure how mentioning Satan's role in it somehow shifts the blame away from Adam and Eve if thats what you're trying to point at. Adam and Eve, as the first humans, were responsible equally for eating the fruit.
    I'm trying to get at why you think the Quran puts the blame on both equally.
    So, as above the Bible (taking as accepted above, Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned") says Adam is to blame, Adam blames God and the woman, the woman blames the serpent. God punishes everyone.

    The Quran blames Satan; when God accuses ("Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?") Adam and the woman accept responsibility. God punishes everyone.

    And from Ta-Ha 114-123:
    115We also
    commanded Adam before you, but he forgot and We found him
    lacking in constancy. 116When We said to the angels, ‘Bow down
    before Adam,’ they did. But Iblis refused, 117so We said, ‘Adam, this
    is your enemy, yours and your wife’s: do not let him drive you out of
    the garden and make you miserable. 118 In the garden you will never
    go hungry, feel naked, 119 be thirsty, or suffer the heat of the sun.’
    120 But Satan whispered to Adam, saying, ‘Adam, shall I show you
    the tree of immortality and power that never decays?’ 121 and they
    both ate from it. They became conscious of their nakedness and
    began to cover themselves with leaves from the garden. Adam disobeyed
    his Lord and was led astray– 122 later his Lord brought him
    close, accepted his repentance, and guided him– 123 God said, ‘Get
    out of the garden as each other’s enemy.’
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 12, 2020 at 09:33 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I'm trying to get at why you think the Quran puts the blame on both equally.
    So, as above the Bible (taking as accepted above, Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned") says Adam is to blame, Adam blames God and the woman, the woman blames the serpent. God punishes everyone.

    The Quran blames Satan; when God accuses ("Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?") Adam and the woman accept responsibility. God punishes everyone (actually, is Satan punished specifically for this act?).
    I think it is quite clear at this point. The Bible insinuates that it's Eve's fault Adam and Eve got into that position as Adam blames Eve and the story is presented to be caused by Eve falling for the serpent's trap while Quran has both of them falling for the trap.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I think it is quite clear at this point. The Bible insinuates that it's Eve's fault Adam and Eve got into that position as Adam blames Eve and the story is presented to be caused by Eve falling for the serpent's trap while Quran has both of them falling for the trap.
    Yes, it is clear that Adam insinuates it is the woman's fault, and God's for giving him the woman. It is also clear that the Bible says sin entered the world through one man (Adam).

    It is also clear that the Quran has Satan/Iblis, after he refused to bow down with the rest of the angels, approach Adam, and after both Adam and his wife eat, then says Adam disobeyed (Ta Ha 120-121 quoted above).
    Almost as though it is placing more responsibility on Adam.
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 12, 2020 at 10:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Wow nice walk around there guys but the fact is from the outside it seems to me Islam accepts duality and the others are trying to paper over how an all seeing creator created sin and failed to effectively put up the fence and or the fire wall. And then spend endless amounts of time telling me why everything is punished endlessly until maybe one day the son of god will appear to some believers... but still screw over everyone who failed to be in Judea at the right moment
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    I don't see anyone telling you anything. No one even responded to your post.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    the serpent in the garden does strike me as a sort of dualism in early Judaism
    Probably not. Historically, it just seems to be an etiological myth.

    Judaism has no concept of original sin. Nor does it really have a concept of evil (perhaps with the exception of some historical movements that didn’t last). The Hebrew word rāᶜ is often translated as “evil”, but it’s something more like harm. It’s clear in the Tanakh that God created rāᶜ and that God does rāᶜ.

    If you translate Exodus 32:14 (wayyinnāḥem Yahweh ᶜal hārāᶜāh ᵓăšer dibber laᶜăśōwṯ ləᶜammōw) with rāᶜ as “evil”, you get “so Yahweh repented from the evil that he said he would do to his people”.

    Also Jonah 3:10 (wayyinnāḥem hāᵓĕlōhm ᶜal hārāᶜāh ᵓăšer dibber laᶜăśōwṯ lāhem) would be “so God repented from the evil that he said he would do to them”.

    In Rabbinic Judaism, there is the concept of yṣer hārāᶜ, the “evil inclination”, or rather the “harmful inclination”, which refers to people’s drive to follow their animal instincts. When it is controlled it can lead to good, but when it is followed foolishly or without concern for what is right, it leads to harm. In the original texts, "the satan" appears to just be a member of the "divine assembly". In Rabbinic Judaism, the satan is considered to be a metaphor for the yṣer hārāᶜ.

    Rabbinic Judaism back to its earliest texts (Sanhedrin 29a for example) appears unconcerned with the literal meaning of Genesis 3. The serpent is just a serpent, but symbolic of someone who misleads people into idolatry. Eve makes the mistake of listening to the pupil (the serpent) rather than the master (God). Adam shows his ungratefulness when he tries to blame Eve, the woman God had made for him.

    I guess the takeaway is that any symbolic meaning of the story isn’t obvious without an exegetical framework. Romans 5:12 lays the foundation for the Christian interpretation, which leads to an entirely different result.
    Last edited by sumskilz; April 12, 2020 at 03:50 PM.
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    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #17

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I think it is quite clear at this point. The Bible insinuates that it's Eve's fault Adam and Eve got into that position as Adam blames Eve and the story is presented to be caused by Eve falling for the serpent's trap while Quran has both of them falling for the trap.

    The Bible doesn't insinuate Eve is to blame, you are projecting your own views onto the passage.


    While Adam tried to blame Eve (and God for creating Eve) and Eve blamed the serpent (and indirectly God for creating the serpent), God rejected both excuses and punished both Adam and Eve. Both Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, not just Eve.

    There is no hint that Eve tricked Adam into eating the fruit, or that Adam ate the fruit other than voluntaily. Note, unlike Eve, who specifically said she was deceived, Adam does not say Eve deceived him.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Also, in Islam, the Satan is a jinn, not a fallen angel like it is in Christianity. In Islam, angels have no free will as they're a manifestation of Allah's will. Jinns do have free will, hence, he was able to not bow to Adam.
    Where in the Koran does it say angels have no free will? If angels are merely the manifestation of Allah's will, then they are not really separate beings, so why even have names? They aren't really beings.





    In Genesis 3, you see how the serpent directs Eve to eat the apple, after which Eve gives it to Adam. In conversation with god, Adam points out it was Eve that gave him the fruit. None of that exists in Quran.
    The Koran's account is really just a few verses, not a whole story like the Genesis account. Naturally it won't have as much detail as Genesis.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; May 19, 2020 at 03:15 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Romans 5:12 is a good example of how the Bible holds everyone responsible for what Adam did but it doesn't show that Eve wasn't the main culprit. In Genesis 3, it is Eve that the serpent gets to eat the fruit first. She gives it to Adam. When god shows up Adam blames Eve for hiving him fruit to eat.
    Everyone suffered the consequences of Adam's action. But the same is true in Islam. We no longer live in paradise in the Garden thanks to Adam according to Islam. Insead of living in a wonderful garden, everyone was live in places not as nice, everyone suffered due Adam even in Islam.

    Unlike.Eve, Adam did not claim he was deceived, so he voluntarily ate the fruit, knowng what it was. Both Adam and Eve both knew thr commandment of God and both delibsrately broke it, making them both guilty, and both were expelled from the Garden. As the older being , Adam was the more responsible one, which is why Paul blamed Adam.


    If you don't see Islam as the continuation of Christianity, then Christianity is not the continuation of Judaism. Just because Christians "plagiarized" the Old Testament completely or that its earlier members were Jews doesn't really grant it continuation rights. You may see Islam as false but it is regarded as the continuation of Christianity because Quran claims it to be, just like Christians see Christianity as the continuation of Judaism because Bible claims it to be.
    No, because the situation Christianity and Islam are not the same. All of the followers of Christianity including its founder were all Jews, and for a while it was regarded as a sect of Judaism. Muhammad and most of his early followers were neither Jews nor Christians, and the people of Arabia never regarded Muslims as Christians or Jews.

    Christianity accepts all the written Jewish scriptures (the Tanakh, i.e Old Testament), while Islam rejects most of the New Testament, including its core teaching about the death, ressurection, divinity of Jesus. This is not the same.


    Paganism was the dominant religion in pre-Islamic Arabia where Muhammad originated from. By your logic, it would make more sense if he grounded his religion on paganism. He didn't.
    Paganism was only the dominant religion of Arabia, a small, poor, and backward corner of the wider middle east world. The mideast as a whe was dominated by Christianity and Judaism, and as the great trader Muhammad was, he would know this. Muhammad would have had to been very stupid to model his religion after the immediate local religion of mostly poo camel herders and occupants of small dusty towns instead of a widely successful religion of a mighty empire.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; April 13, 2020 at 04:11 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    A bit unfair because you know the bible never wastes time telling us how semitic sheep herders ares supposed run their daily laws... Also you gotta admit a good editor would reduced the redundancy of the NT and or the contradictions. Also frankly once you are not Jewish but Christian Roman/neoplatonic-ised you really could all the begats out into a some other book since they really don't matter anymore
    The New Testamet redunancy is because ths testimony of a single perosn is insufficient is principle of Judaism, hence you have more than one one Gospel. A certain amount of contradictions is alway going to be found in genuine eyewitness testimony. If a cop found the testimonies of a bunch of eyewitnesses agreeing in every single detail he would conclude their testimony was all rehearsed and not genuine. Real people in remembering real events won't remember ever single detail the same.

    And you are so busy defending Islam you missed the point I made. The Old Testament is much longer than the Koran, it could afford to include those rules of sheepherders and still not leave out important detail. The Koran, being shorter, can't afford to, without being less detailed in other matters. My comments were because of a typically false Muslim claim that it was "more detailed" when the opposite is true. Thd Koran, being much shorter than the Bible, is necessarily less detailed, and the unnecessary redunacy of the Koran doesn't help.

    And the begats are more imprtant than you think. Geneologies help establish how one person relates to another. The geneology of Jesus establishes the fact that Jesus lived a long time after David, and David lived a long time after Abraham. It puts characters in perspective, which is why the New Testament does make the Koran's mistake of confusing Mirriam, sister of Aaron and Moses with Mary mother of Jesus as the same person even though they actually lived a thousand years apart. And the geneologies of Jesus establish that he was a descendant of David.(thus proving Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies), and Jesus soldily jewish credentials. Geneologies were important to ancient people.





    I not sure why you are arguing since of course the first pillar of Islam makes it clear Islam is well neither Christian in any form nor being a Jew. They are the same I suppose in so far as the mythology accepts the same general origin story, Abraham and what not. So does the LDS adds but again to itself its not the same. You are right Manichaeism is different as well but related I mean the fact of the serpent in the garden does strike me as a sort of dualism in early Judaism otherwise one wonders how such an all powerful fell asleep at the wheel. Anyway I surprised you have not mentioned Gnosticism yet it seems a better close relative than Manichaeism

    If you don't understand it because you did not pay attention to what I wrote. I was responding to what the creator of the thread "What is Islam" said. He said "Islam is the same religion as ....only more detailed". The thread "What is Islam" was closed at the time so I created this thread to respond to that statement.

    more.
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