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Thread: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

  1. #241

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    At the fall of Adam and Eve the curse of sin was placed on all their offspring and so one didn't have to actually commit a sin because the curse was already in place thus separating man from God. The price asked by the Law for sin is blood and that blood can only be paid before one dies. What that means is that not one person was or is able to enter heaven unless shed blood took away their sin before their death. There isn't a Muslim alive or dead in which their good works could ever get them into this paradise. The hope is that God will show mercy but that mercy must come before death and so how does God do that? Well, He came into the world as a sinless man to die on a cross so that His blood could satisfy the Law and pay for the sins of all them He died for. Jesus Christ did that but Mohammed blocked that from your minds by placing himself above the Son of God. So, if one steals an apple that is sin and added to the curse makes sin even worse in the eyes of God so the only course of freedom from sin is Jesus Christ.
    That's just you preaching about Christianity. It doesn't address what you made up about Islam. Why did you lie?
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  2. #242

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not true. You get judged based on your good and bad deeds. Just because one day you stole an apple doesn't mean you're automatically disqualified from entering heaven. Why did you make this up about Islam?
    That is the Muslim view not the Christian one. To the perfect, even the best of people tr?ying to get into heaven is seriel killer trying to get into heaven arguing "I only killed a dozen persons not millions like Hitler, so I am ok!" To God, even ths best of us are like that seriel killer arguing that we are ok because we are not as bad as the next guy, who killed more. We still all fall too short of God's perfection. A murder of one person still go to prison same as a person kills dozens or hundreds. Note, the punish for killing hundred or 1 first degree murder is still the same.

    Only Jesus can set things right. Sure, we will all be judged on our deeds, but to God, we are all as guilty as that seriel killer. It is Jesus who sets things right with God. That is the traditional Christian belief.


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  3. #243
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Only those who know little of history fail to credit the glorious scientific nature of Islam preserving and expanding the knowledge which would trickle in Dark Age Europe and play a significant role in sparking the Renaissance.
    I have a hard time taking this statement (and others like it) seriously... See spoiler folks...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    For starters, Islam is a clearly culture-imperialist movement - it is well established that Islam have had openly destructive and oppressive relations to ALL other non-Islamic cultures through out world history. Especially so once the supremacy of Islam was/is locally achieved. A quick look at North Africa and we have all we need to confirm this. North Africa was once explicitly Christian domains, but once these lands fell under Islamic rule during the 600's all that changed drastically and quickly. The Christian culture and institutions there gets annihilated by deliberate, systematic, structural suppression of any cultural and religious expression other then that of Islam. There is no doubt about this as we can - 500 years after the fact - safely conclude that the Christian culture has been all but eradicated everywhere save Egypt (where the once significant Coptic church lingers on, slowly but ultimately fading away into oblivion due to ruling Islamic doctrine), and there are virtually no trace of it left. It is all gone...

    With all that in mind - it is extremely unlikely that ANY such broad preservation of Greek texts - as suggested - ever took place. Especially so within the official framework of Islam. The relatively small number of texts that did survive the Islamic onslaught of the 600's did so most likely due to a few and strictly private initiatives taken (unclear by whom too, I imagine). This while the vast majority of all such non-Islamic/"kafir" (unbeliever) manuscripts - regardless the kind - ended up in flames or was otherwise destroyed by the hands of Islamic warriors. Perhaps the most famous example of all this is the burning of the great library of Alexandria. And we have no reason what so ever to think that this event was an unique act, nor that it supposedly was the first of it kind, or that it somehow would be the last either. I have not seen anything that suggests this. Thus we can probably safely conclude that the movement of Islam (on general terms) hardly acted to preserve anything, but it is evident that it repeatedly practiced destruction and cultural-extermination on everything somehow "kafir"-related in its path - as world history shows us. That practice included any ancient Greek texts and manuscripts, for sure.

    The Islamic world was all the same able to produce both able and skilled scientists for its time during the middle ages - but - I highly doubt that it was because of Islam. Instead I would say it happened despite Islam. It probably was primarily a matter of existing wealth and funding by the ruling class. Other important factors could be general stability and security as provided and maintained within their empire(s), this allowing scientists and scholars to work and gather in peace - and add to that various functional infrastructure and institutions (as set up by the ruling local princes etc). Something along those lines...

    Lastly, I seriously doubt that Islam had much to do with sparking the renaissance (I have yet to see anything that seriously support such a claim). The credit for that goes to the Italians (usually Florence), not Islam.... World history, is yet again rather clear on that (see Wiki).

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    If we are judging countries my Nobel Prizes we have to admit the US by far is the greatest country of them all. No where else comes close. Is that the argument? Americans are the smartest.
    Nah its really not about that. Not for me anyways...

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    There are more than 26 versions of the Bible to answer that idiotic question.
    Thats hardly an answer... Try again... And relax, it is a simple question. And, it is the answer that is the interesting part here - can't you tell?

    Again folks, how many different versions of the Bible or Torah are in service out there?
    How many, and does that answer not provide possible cause for some reflection...?...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; August 13, 2020 at 04:41 PM. Reason: errata...

  4. #244

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    One point to ponder is that the Middle East was among the leading technical center of civilization since civilization first arose in the middle east. It has ceased to be a leading center of civilization since Islam took over the region. For 3500 years the region was a center of civilization and in 1400 years under Islam it stopprd being one.

    However correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The fact that the middle east eventuslly stopped being a leading center of technology after Islam gained control does not necessarily mean there was a relation between the 2. Still makes you think.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 15, 2020 at 02:40 PM. Reason: typo

  5. #245
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    I have a hard time taking this statement (and others like it) seriously... See spoiler folks...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    For starters, Islam is a clearly culture-imperialist movement - it is well established that Islam have had openly destructive and oppressive relations to ALL other non-Islamic cultures through out world history. Especially so once the supremacy of Islam was/is locally achieved. A quick look at North Africa and we have all we need to confirm this. North Africa was once explicitly Christian domains, but once these lands fell under Islamic rule during the 600's all that changed drastically and quickly. The Christian culture and institutions there gets annihilated by deliberate, systematic, structural suppression of any cultural and religious expression other then that of Islam. There is no doubt about this as we can - 500 years after the fact - safely conclude that the Christian culture has been all but eradicated everywhere save Egypt (where the once significant Coptic church lingers on, slowly but ultimately fading away into oblivion due to ruling Islamic doctrine), and there are virtually no trace of it left. It is all gone...

    With all that in mind - it is extremely unlikely that ANY such broad preservation of Greek texts - as suggested - ever took place. Especially so within the official framework of Islam. The relatively small number of texts that did survive the Islamic onslaught of the 600's did so most likely due to a few and strictly private initiatives taken (unclear by whom too, I imagine). This while the vast majority of all such non-Islamic/"kafir" (unbeliever) manuscripts - regardless the kind - ended up in flames or was otherwise destroyed by the hands of Islamic warriors. Perhaps the most famous example of all this is the burning of the great library of Alexandria. And we have no reason what so ever to think that this event was an unique act, nor that it supposedly was the first of it kind, or that it somehow would be the last either. I have not seen anything that suggests this. Thus we can probably safely conclude that the movement of Islam (on general terms) hardly acted to preserve anything, but it is evident that it repeatedly practiced destruction and cultural-extermination on everything somehow "kafir"-related in its path - as world history shows us. That practice included any ancient Greek texts and manuscripts, for sure.

    The Islamic world was all the same able to produce both able and skilled scientists for its time during the middle ages - but - I highly doubt that it was because of Islam. Instead I would say it happened despite Islam. It probably was primarily a matter of existing wealth and funding by the ruling class. Other important factors could be general stability and security as provided and maintained within their empire(s), this allowing scientists and scholars to work and gather in peace - and add to that various functional infrastructure and institutions (as set up by the ruling local princes etc). Something along those lines...

    Lastly, I seriously doubt that Islam had much to do with sparking the renaissance (I have yet to see anything that seriously support such a claim). The credit for that goes to the Italians (usually Florence), not Islam.... World history, is yet again rather clear on that (see Wiki).
    Consensus among historians of science is that the muslims of the ~8-12th century were in fact responsible for safeguarding and translating many Greek philosophical works, whereas European scholars of note were mostly absent during this period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes are good places to get you started). It is somewhat nonsensical to refer to any medieval scholarship as a "private" enterprise, seeing as philosophy was as a rule either practiced by the rich, or by philosophers in a patronage relationship with someone of stature. The state, whether christian or muslim, had little to do with the production of knowledge. This remained the case until the ~18th century at least. A notable exception to this rule is the Baghdad House of Wisdom, which was in fact built by a caliph, thus being "state" sponsored.

    Your claim that muslims did not preserve greek texts needs backing up with evidence, as you are directly contradicting the scholarly consensus, which is that Greek philosophical works were typically translated from Greek to Arabic to Latin. This muslim influence is also quite clearly visible in scholastic (so, european christian) works, which in turn paved the way for the Renaissance.

    I agree with you that I don't think there is anything inherently "gloriously scientific" about islam, but the same is true for christianity. Certain interpretations of either worldview can allow or prevent progress. The notion that muslims burned all the greek texts that they got their hands on is, without evidence, about as laughable as the claim that the enlightenment could not have taken place in a christian context because of the suppression of heliocentrism, for example. This point could also be applied to the colonization of the New World, where christians were very quick to wipe out indigenous American cultures in ways that could most definitely be described as "culture-imperialist" as well. Yet, christian cultures have in fact shaped modern science. Hindsight therefore allows us to observe that the conservative, hegemonic and/or absolutist views of a religion at some time in some place do not mean that it cannot or could not have been a facilitator of progress at some other time or place.

    TLDR: Islam is not necessarily as pro- or as anti-science as is portrayed in this thread. Like so many things in life, it depends on the circumstances. Attempts to discredit medieval islamic scholarship without providing evidence are a bit laughable.
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  6. #246

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    One point to ponder is that the Middle.East was among the leading tdchnical center of civilization since civilization first arose in the middle east. It has ceased to be a leading center of civilization since Islam took over the region. For 3500 years the region was a center of civilization and in 1400 years under Islam it stopprd being one.

    However correlation does not necessarily mean causation. The fact that the middle east eventuslly stopped being a.leading center of technology after Islam.gained control does not necessarily mean there.was a relation berween the 2. Still makes you think.
    The Middle East was the leading center of innovation, invention, medicine, art, poetry, warfare, mathematics from 700-1400 AD under Islam. No contest. It isnít until the late 1500s Europe started to catch up through trade and knowledge with Islamic states and surpass them. I find it hard to believe anyone anywhere is unaware of this. Knowledge flourished under Islam longer than it has under Europe and really now The US since.

    The Enlightenment doesnít happen without the wonders of Islam.

  7. #247
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    TLDR: Islam is not necessarily as pro- or as anti-science as is portrayed in this thread. Like so many things in life, it depends on the circumstances. Attempts to discredit medieval islamic scholarship without providing evidence are a bit laughable.
    Well, I can tell from your response that my writing have been sloppy and hasty again (my bad) - as you have made conclusions that I did not intend or actually support. Lets just skip to the interesting part and save us some time - as most of all this is not important enough for me to go out and hunt down sources and evidence, to properly back up everything left and right anyways. Assuming I could actually find everything. Now, below is the thing that interest me here... Give me your take, please...

    ***

    1. Have Islam (or rather its agents/warriors) destroyed any ancient/old Greek texts? Y/N? If yes - proceed to point 2... Otherwise, produce the evidence that properly prove that Islam has not destroyed any Greek texts/manuscripts anywhere during the 600's while conquering Egypt and then all the way to Gibraltar...

    2. Have Islam (or rather its agents/warriors) destroyed more old Greek texts/manuscripts then it preserved (translated)? Y/N? If yes - proceed to point 3... Otherwise, produce the evidence that prove that Islam has not destroyed more texts then it translated for posterity. Or at least some serious evidence confirming that Islam was actively practicing a doctrine of saving and gathering all such "kafir"-texts and manuscripts it could find at the time - this in order to translate them for posterity (supposedly it was the Nestorian Christians that introduced the practice of translating old Greek texts within the Islamic empire(s), not Muslims. If true, is it reasonable to solely accredit Islam for this practice? And why does not the Nestorian Christians deserve some credit for it? Anyhow, I digress...).

    3. If the answer on point 2 was a "yes" - is it then reasonable, rational and warranted to declare or advocate Islam as the "great savior" of such texts? Y/N? If yes, proceed to point 4... Otherwise, you are essentially agreeing with the point I was trying to make...

    4. Produce the evidence that credibly explain why it is a reasonable, rational and warranted conclusion to view Islam (as a movement) the "great savior" of Greek ancient texts somehow - despite it destroyed more texts then it "preserved" (translated). In other words, how does that inconsistency supposedly add up? Explain...



    That is it.... I'll probably be happy to either agree or concede on essentially all the rest - all depending on what I wrote in previous posts (whatever corresponds the best).

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; August 15, 2020 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Stuff...

  8. #248
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    A number of posts have been deleted as personal references. Remember the EEM rules apply on top of the ToS here.
    Furthermore, I would like to strongly encourage posters to avoid using "you are" even when talking in general "We were all born on Earth" is much less personal than "You were born on Earth". Try to be as impersonal as possible in future posts, as these are sensitive matters. Avoid needlessly provoking the other posters and take a moment before you post to make sure your post is impersonal.
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  9. #249

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    Consensus among historians of science is that the muslims of the ~8-12th century were in fact responsible for safeguarding and translating many Greek philosophical works, whereas European scholars of note were mostly absent during this period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes are good places to get you started). It is somewhat nonsensical to refer to any medieval scholarship as a "private" enterprise, seeing as philosophy was as a rule either practiced by the rich, or by philosophers in a patronage relationship with someone of stature. The state, whether christian or muslim, had little to do with the production of knowledge. This remained the case until the ~18th century at least. A notable exception to this rule is the Baghdad House of Wisdom, which was in fact built by a caliph, thus being "state" sponsored.
    It is true the Muslims did preserve some classicsl works that had not been preserved in the West, but the West preserved a number of classicsl works on its own, and obtained more from Byzsntium. The Muslim role has been overstate. Muslims also passex along some of the achiements of mathematicians from India, after taking credit for them, such as Arabic numerals realing being Indian numerals. Muslims also passed on their original work in chemistry and math

    Your claim that muslims did not preserve greek texts needs backing up with evidence, as you are directly contradicting the scholarly consensus, which is that Greek philosophical works were typically translated from Greek to Arabic to Latin. This muslim influence is also quite clearly visible in scholastic (so, european christian) works, which in turn paved the way for the Renaissance.
    Muslims mosrly preserved works of science, philosophy and math, not the history, literature and plays.


    I agree with you that I don't think there is anything inherently "gloriously scientific" about islam, but the same is true for christianity. Certain interpretations of either worldview can allow or prevent progress. The notion that muslims burned all the greek texts that they got their hands on is, without evidence, about as laughable as the claim that the enlightenment could not have taken place in a christian context because of the suppression of heliocentrism, for example. This point could also be applied to the colonization of the New World, where christians were very quick to wipe out indigenous American cultures in ways that could most definitely be described as "culture-imperialist" as well. Yet, christian cultures have in fact shaped modern science. Hindsight therefore allows us to observe that the conservative, hegemonic and/or absolutist views of a religion at some time in some place do not mean that it cannot or could not have been a facilitator of progress at some other time or place.
    True, but there are features in Islam that while did not preclude scientific thought, does stack the deck against it. Islams does not need philosophy - its dogma is simple and straight forward and so can turn against philosophy as it did. Christian doctrine like the Trinity and the nature and relationship between the persons of the Trinity requires some philosophy, and so Christianity cannot completely dispense with philosophy as Islam later did. The Koran is also randomly organized, neither by chronology or theme, but by length of chapter - it would be like if the Gospel of Luke.was next to Exodus and Acts next to 1 King because the books were similar length
    re

    TLDR: Islam is not necessarily as pro- or as anti-science as is portrayed in this thread. Like so many things in life, it depends on the circumstances. Attempts to discredit medieval islamic scholarship without providing evidence are a bit laughable.
    True, a religion can be whatever its believers might want to make of it. But there are factors in Islam that make it more prone be anti-science.

    1. The chaotic organization of the Koran does not promote logical. rational thinking. The Koran is organized neither by chronologynor topic but merely by length of chapters. Some of the chapters were given in the beginning of Muhammad's carreer, some at the end. Muhammad's messages changed overtime since Allah would give new revelations superceding the older ones, but since thenKoran is not chronological you don't know which verses still apply and which have been replaced just reading the Koran.

    2. Allah as portrayed in the Koran is not logical.and is arbitrary, he can do whatever he wills, logic be damned.. To behave logically would impose limits on Allah, and Allah has no limits, even to act rationally.

    Fod example, the Koran says Jesus did not die on the cross, but Allah only tricked the Jews (and everybody else) into thinking Jesus had died on the cross. That makes no senses. Allah's own action caused the world's largest religion to, according Muslim, is faslely preaching Jesus died on the cross. Allah himself created the world's largest false religion. To confound the Jews it would.have been more logical to show the Jews they had failed, but not Allah.

    3. The Koran is full of lies, and Muslims lie, often in defense of the Koran's lies, and science is the pursuit of truth, lying and truth are not combatible

    a. The Koran says the Jews say Ezra is the Son of God, which is an outright lie, Jews have never said such a thing. Some Muslims lie and claim there was a secret bunch of Jews that did say Ezra was rhr Son of God, but that is a lie too, and in any case still would not get the Koran off the hook, since it did not says "some Jews" but "Jews" which means more than some Jews nobody ever heard of. Nor is just being used in a figure sense, because it is right next to where Christians say Jesus is the Son of God, and the Koran condemns thr Jews saying it, which would not the case if it was figuratively meant.

    (Whatever excuse you hear from Muslims will be a lie, since if they admit the Koran is wrong anywhere is to admit Islam is false. The Koran is supposed to be Allah's very words, and so cannot be wrong.)

    b. The Koran implies the Trinity is God, Jesus, and Mary, which is false.

    c. The Koran says Muhammad is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments, but he is not. Muslims misinterpret and pervert all kinds of Old and New Testament verses to support the Korans lies, taking the verses out of context and arbitrary changing words to support the Korsn's false claims. The best one is the claim that ths highly erotic Song of Solomon is about Muhammad.

    d. The Korans says the Jews boast about killing Jesus but Jesus did not die - both are lies. The Jews do not boast of killing Jesus, everyone knows the Romans did the killing, and everybody agrees that Jesus did die on the cross.

    As a resulf of all this, you get some Muslims making absurd claims like Alexsnder the Great founded the Catholic Church in Rome and that is on the Catholic Church's website http://en.protothema.gr/alexander-th...m-sheik-video/

    Such an environment is not conductive for promoting good science. Inquiring minds are squashed when they don't agree witn the Koran. Now if Muslim"s were to say the Koran was only s bo9ok, it has errors snd did not come from God, most of these issuez would go away. But that is not the Islam of today and what would be left of Islam then?

  10. #250

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    It is true the Muslims did preserve some classicsl works that had not been preserved in the West, but the West preserved a number of classicsl works on its own, and obtained more from Byzsntium. The Muslim role has been overstate. Muslims also passex along some of the achiements of mathematicians from India, after taking credit for them, such as Arabic numerals realing being Indian numerals. Muslims also passed on their original work in chemistry and math



    Muslims mosrly preserved works of science, philosophy and math, not the history, literature and plays.




    True, but there are features in Islam that while did not preclude scientific thought, does stack the deck against it. Islams does not need philosophy - its dogma is simple and straight forward and so can turn against philosophy as it did. Christian doctrine like the Trinity and the nature and relationship between the persons of the Trinity requires some philosophy, and so Christianity cannot completely dispense with philosophy as Islam later did. The Koran is also randomly organized, neither by chronology or theme, but by length of chapter - it would be like if the Gospel of Luke.was next to Exodus and Acts next to 1 King because the books were similar length
    re



    True, a religion can be whatever its believers might want to make of it. But there are factors in Islam that make it more prone be anti-science.

    1. The chaotic organization of the Koran does not promote logical. rational thinking. The Koran is organized neither by chronologynor topic but merely by length of chapters. Some of the chapters were given in the beginning of Muhammad's carreer, some at the end. Muhammad's messages changed overtime since Allah would give new revelations superceding the older ones, but since thenKoran is not chronological you don't know which verses still apply and which have been replaced just reading the Koran.

    2. Allah as portrayed in the Koran is not logical.and is arbitrary, he can do whatever he wills, logic be damned.. To behave logically would impose limits on Allah, and Allah has no limits, even to act rationally.

    Fod example, the Koran says Jesus did not die on the cross, but Allah only tricked the Jews (and everybody else) into thinking Jesus had died on the cross. That makes no senses. Allah's own action caused the world's largest religion to, according Muslim, is faslely preaching Jesus died on the cross. Allah himself created the world's largest false religion. To confound the Jews it would.have been more logical to show the Jews they had failed, but not Allah.

    3. The Koran is full of lies, and Muslims lie, often in defense of the Koran's lies, and science is the pursuit of truth, lying and truth are not combatible

    a. The Koran says the Jews say Ezra is the Son of God, which is an outright lie, Jews have never said such a thing. Some Muslims lie and claim there was a secret bunch of Jews that did say Ezra was rhr Son of God, but that is a lie too, and in any case still would not get the Koran off the hook, since it did not says "some Jews" but "Jews" which means more than some Jews nobody ever heard of. Nor is just being used in a figure sense, because it is right next to where Christians say Jesus is the Son of God, and the Koran condemns thr Jews saying it, which would not the case if it was figuratively meant.

    (Whatever excuse you hear from Muslims will be a lie, since if they admit the Koran is wrong anywhere is to admit Islam is false. The Koran is supposed to be Allah's very words, and so cannot be wrong.)

    b. The Koran implies the Trinity is God, Jesus, and Mary, which is false.

    c. The Koran says Muhammad is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments, but he is not. Muslims misinterpret and pervert all kinds of Old and New Testament verses to support the Korans lies, taking the verses out of context and arbitrary changing words to support the Korsn's false claims. The best one is the claim that ths highly erotic Song of Solomon is about Muhammad.

    d. The Korans says the Jews boast about killing Jesus but Jesus did not die - both are lies. The Jews do not boast of killing Jesus, everyone knows the Romans did the killing, and everybody agrees that Jesus did die on the cross.

    As a resulf of all this, you get some Muslims making absurd claims like Alexsnder the Great founded the Catholic Church in Rome and that is on the Catholic Church's website http://en.protothema.gr/alexander-th...m-sheik-video/

    Such an environment is not conductive for promoting good science. Inquiring minds are squashed when they don't agree witn the Koran. Now if Muslim"s were to say the Koran was only s bo9ok, it has errors snd did not come from God, most of these issuez would go away. But that is not the Islam of today and what would be left of Islam then?

    Are there Abrahamic religions with a history of promoting good science?

  11. #251
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Are there Abrahamic religions with a history of promoting good science?
    I assume you are talking here of Judaism and Christianity because Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. Today Israel is one of the most advanced nations in the world plus who can outdo America and Great Britain for their contribution to science?

  12. #252
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    2. Allah as portrayed in the Koran is not logical.and is arbitrary, he can do whatever he wills, logic be damned.. To behave logically would impose limits on Allah, and Allah has no limits, even to act rationally.
    You reading a different OT than I did - its god is capricious and rather random.

    Muslims mosrly preserved works of science, philosophy and math, not the history, literature and plays
    Well when you compare the know volume of works of Sophocles, Euripides, and Aeschylus to what we have now you can't say the Christian west did a bang up job either. Sama for Aristotle's constitutions 170 and we only 1 due a trash heap in Egypt?
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  13. #253

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You reading a different OT than I did - its god is capricious and rather random.
    Just interpreted it.differently is all.

    In Genesis, God stsrts out to.merhodically, systematically creating the world, Fkrst creating light, then creating the earth and the heavens. then gather the waters together to create the dry land and ocean and so forth.

    God Genesis is neither cspricious or random.

    Well when you compare the know volume of works of Sophocles, Euripides, and Aeschylus to what we have now you can't say the Christian west did a bang up job either. Sama for Aristotle's constitutions 170 and we only 1 due a trash heap in Egypt?
    No, but we would not have any relying on the Muslims. Same for Ovid - all the stories of the Greek gods would have been lost, as well as Virgik.

  14. #254

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Are there Abrahamic religions with a history of promoting good science?
    Modern science was invented by Christians. so yes. The creator of the big bang theory was a Catbolic priest, The discoverer of laws of inheritance was a monk.

  15. #255

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I assume you are talking here of Judaism and Christianity because Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. Today Israel is one of the most advanced nations in the world plus who can outdo America and Great Britain for their contribution to science?
    Incorrect. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


    Common

    If you were solely taught European history and believe Science magically appeared during the Enlightenment than you are correct. If you believe human history goes back further than 500 years you are not.

    They still teach Galen in medical schools for a reason. Islamic doctors were light years ahead of the Europeans. DaVinci was a big fan of them.

    The laws of inheritance I assume you mean Mendel. Man was playing with inheritance from before recorded history.

    Separate question. I thought Catholics weren’t the true Christians? Are you admitting Catholics are the correct Christian sect? Because if not a heretic invented the Big Bang theory. (Which was really the work of many many people over hundreds to thousands of years)

    We are never going to agree. I believe what comes before matters to what comes after. You believe the after is born in the present. There is no way for these two views of reality to find agreement.

  16. #256
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Islam is still a false religion and if one looks at what has become the argument there is not another people who have given the world as much as the Jews.

  17. #257

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Islam is still a false religion and if one looks at what has become the argument there is not another people who have given the world as much as the Jews.
    So the Jews gave the most to Science etc. You disagree with Common who says it was the Christians. I agree that Common’s arguments are wrong on this subject.

    Never imagined we could agree basics. Maybe miracles are real.

  18. #258

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Incorrect. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions


    Common

    If you were solely taught European history and believe Science magically appeared during the Enlightenment than you are correct. If you believe human history goes back further than 500 years you are not.
    Modern science did, I used the qualifer "modern". Modern science was superior to that of the past, and its achievement greater as a result. It was built on the science of the past, but went far beyond them. You could argue science as we know it did start in the Enlightenment, what wen before was not quite science, precursor to science, but that is semantics.



    They still teach Galen in medical schools for a reason. Islamic doctors were light years ahead of the Europeans. DaVinci was a big fan of them.
    Galen was outdated by the Enlightenment and was Greek, not Islamic. Europe had surpassed Islamic world by the 16 th century. The Cburch allowed human disection which Islam did not, so Europe surpassed Islamic world.

    Separate question. I thought Catholics weren't the true Christians? Are you admitting Catholics are the correct Christian sect? Because if not a heretic invented the Big Bang theory. (Which was really the work of many many people over hundreds to thousands of years)
    Basics might not, But I do think Catholics are true Christians but so are others

    We are never going to agree. I believe what comes before matters to what comes after. You believe the after is born in the present. There is no way for these two views of reality to find agreement.
    Not quite bur close to what I mean.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 17, 2020 at 04:58 AM.

  19. #259

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Basics said Jews not Christians have given the most to Science etc. Galen was an example of pre modern knowledge following a method recognizable to science. I almost used Avicenna who I feel should be just as known a name but often isn’t. Plenty of others if you want more Islamic examples.

    Your last line almost was agreement with something I said. How can what comes after not be the result of what comes before?
    Last edited by wanderwegger; August 17, 2020 at 11:22 AM.

  20. #260

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    Basics said Jews not Christians have given the most to Science etc.
    Please point out where basics said the Jews gave the a world, he did not mention science. Your are changing his words. There other things to give to the world beside.

    Claiming basics contradicts me because of your interpretation based on changing what he actually sais is not right nor nice.

    [quore=]
    Galen was an example of pre modern knowledge following a method recognizable to science. [/quote]

    He is not being taught as you implied. You madenir sound like medical schools today were still relyig on him, and I corrected that false.impression, which you perhPz did not intend to give.

    I almost used Avicenna who I feel should be just as known a name but often isn’t. Plenty of others if you want more Islamic examples.
    Yes, pkenty of Muslim scholars, and made valuable contributions they made, but not a fraction as much as the Europesan Enlightenment scientist


    Avicenna was not really a scientist, more a philosopher like Aristotle. even though he did touch on scientific things. Not a great as important or great a scientist as Newrton, Galileo or even Hook.

    Your last line almost was agreement with something I said. How can what comes after not be the result of what comes before?
    Because the presenr, being closer to the future, has more influence on the future. Hkw can what comes after not be the result of what happening now? And the present, being closer to the after, how can it not have greater influemce and thus be more important.

    You think what comes before uniquely determines what comes after, I do not. I believe in free will, and the past does not control the future. I thought you were.going to drop it snd just agree to disagree, so why are trying to show you are right still?

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