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Thread: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

  1. #221
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    " In the beginning God, ( Elohim,) created the heaven and the earth." Elohim is a plural word
    So is we when used by a monarch but he/she means themselves. The construction around Elohim in Genesis 1:1 is singular.

    It is obvious that this was Jesus Christ the Creator Who did that so your argument is totally wrong
    Or it was a metaphor, or God can do as he wills, etc. The obviousness only becomes apparent if you looking to retroactively append NT trinity onto the OT.

    It came via Noah and his family who knew of it before the flood and so it was by Cush that his son Nimrod was deified as a Trinity.
    Err yes I believe that when I also believe Theseus was once a real king of Athens.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #222
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    conon394,

    Of course it is because it determines that the Three persons of the Godhead made all things and that there was nothing made that was not made by Him, Elohim. As I said and repeat Cush deified Nimrod who along with Semiramis and a dove and later a child to formulate his version of the Godhead which was known to Noah and his family before the flood. For his apostasy Nimrod was killed by Shem but that didn't stop the apostate religion spreading across the earth with many gods being sprung up in each of these religions. No it wasn't a metaphor as further incidents tell.

  3. #223

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    In the original Hebrew Nimrod and Shem are lovers remember. Shem kills Nimrod out of jealousy because he has a threesome with the Unicorns. Why the unicorns later weren’t allowed on the Ark.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Of course it is because it determines that the Three persons of the Godhead made all things and that there was nothing made that was not made by Him, Elohim. As I said and repeat Cush deified Nimrod who along with Semiramis and a dove and later a child to formulate his version of the Godhead which was known to Noah and his family before the flood. For his apostasy Nimrod was killed by Shem but that didn't stop the apostate religion spreading across the earth with many gods being sprung up in each of these religions. No it wasn't a metaphor as further incidents tell.

  4. #224
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Of course it is because it determines that the Three persons of the Godhead
    Again the overall construction is singular. But if you want to hang onto the plural its just that plural it of itself does not imply a triad. Only the later NT and lot of hard work and editing by people long after Jesus died get to say Ha we have a 3 layered understanding of God let's go through the OT and figure out if we can back fit that. But read the OT in isolation and you really do not get anything out of the OT but an affirmation of a people moving to a unitary god and setting up a lot laws and traditions that make-themselves different their surrounding peoples and also justify conquests.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #225
    Adamat's Avatar Invertebrate
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    The OT doesn't even contend that Yahweh is the only god, it refers to competing gods multiple times. This means that the followers of the OT were actually just as polytheistic as everyone else living at the time, the difference being that they only worshipped one god.
    #JusticeForCookie #JusticeForCal #JusticeForAkar #JusticeForAthelchan

  6. #226
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    The OT doesn't even contend that Yahweh is the only god, it refers to competing gods multiple times. This means that the followers of the OT were actually just as polytheistic as everyone else living at the time, the difference being that they only worshipped one god.
    The OT does seem to end up a bit different it that its creator god is also a personal god if you will to his people. Consider the Greeks the creation is a remote thing by deities and forces that have little to no interest in humans. Thus it falls the Olympians super power indeed, but just our gods there is no tension that there might be other gods. I always struck me as OT as a bit of a issue there in that it does seem to allow other divinities and that is a problem for the NT authors.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Again the overall construction is singular. But if you want to hang onto the plural its just that plural it of itself does not imply a triad. Only the later NT and lot of hard work and editing by people long after Jesus died get to say Ha we have a 3 layered understanding of God let's go through the OT and figure out if we can back fit that. But read the OT in isolation and you really do not get anything out of the OT but an affirmation of a people moving to a unitary god and setting up a lot laws and traditions that make-themselves different their surrounding peoples and also justify conquests.
    conon394,

    Jesus said of Moses that he, Moses, knew of Him and told of Him also saying that " Before Moses was I AM." thus confirming Jesus claim to be not only the Son of God but God Himself. So, when God, Jesus, had Moses write down the Torah, Genesis, why would He, God, name Himself in the plural? Indeed why would Jesus say " I and My Father are One " if They were not One? Had Jesus been on the earth as a man from Genesis on do you honestly think that He wouldn't say the same things as is reported He said in the New Testament? Do you honestly think that Jesus Christ our Creator Who gave all the prophets their words to say if He was not God? The problem then was as it is today that the Israelites were apart from the elect of God were just like you, disbelieving and disobedient and most paid a heavy price for that. Better wise up ole son.

  8. #228
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Jesus said of Moses that he, Moses, knew of Him and told of Him also saying that " Before Moses was I AM." thus confirming Jesus claim to be not only the Son of God but God Himself. So, when God, Jesus, had Moses write down the Torah, Genesis, why would He, God, name Himself in the plural? Indeed why would Jesus say " I and My Father are One " if They were not One? Had Jesus been on the earth as a man from Genesis on do you honestly think that He wouldn't say the same things as is reported He said in the New Testament? Do you honestly think that Jesus Christ our Creator Who gave all the prophets their words to say if He was not God? The problem then was as it is today that the Israelites were apart from the elect of God were just like you, disbelieving and disobedient and most paid a heavy price for that. Better wise up ole son.
    Better reference the passages you are citing please. I think I know the ones but still as far as I recall you are abusing the use of Elohim. I does not mean/imply Jesus unless you believe what the people who wrote about Jesus say he said as they appended the NT on to Old.

    Genesis, why would He, God, name Himself in the plural?
    Again why do kings, fragment of polytheistic belief, but not conclusively the trinity you hold to..

    Indeed why would Jesus say " I and My Father are One
    Err you have look at the OT independent of the NT, Jesus in an independent witness.

    Had Jesus been on the earth as a man from Genesis on do you honestly think that He wouldn't say the same things as is reported He said in the New Testament? Do you honestly think that Jesus Christ our Creator Who gave all the prophets their words to say if He was not God? The problem then was as it is today that the Israelites were apart from the elect of God were just like you, disbelieving and disobedient and most paid a heavy price for that. Better wise up ole son.
    Well can't really say since I am pretty confident Genesis is an allegorical story creation made by iron age tribes adapted out of older myths that go back to the Sumerians, I not overly impressed about when people writing about Jesus reinterpret the Hebrew scripture.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #229

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    In middle school a religious friend asked me how could Jesus in the NT meet all the criteria of the Messiah from the OT. I told him because the NT was compiled after. Settled the issue for me. Eventually he went to college and it settled the issue for him to.

  10. #230

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Better reference the passages you are citing please. I think I know the ones but still as far as I recall you are abusing the use of Elohim. I does not mean/imply Jesus unless you believe what the people who wrote about Jesus say he said as they appended the NT on to Old.
    In Zechariah 2:11, the Lord (Yahweh) is sent to dwell among the people by the Lord (Yahweh) of host, Yahweh sending Yaweh. The phrasing acts as if Yahweh was 2 separate entities . This seems a more than just the idea of a royal we here. There are other examples you can find in the Old Tetament - Jesus himself refers to Pslam 110:1 "The LORD said to my Lord", asking the crowd how the person could be in verse 1 could be son of David since David calls him "Lord"? As Peter shows in Acts 2:34 - 36 that Psalms 110:1 shows Jesus to be Lord (God) and Christ. You.csn find other exsmples innthr Old Testament https://crossexamined.org/the-trinit...stament-part1/

    There is a Hebrew word that means absolute oneness, yachid, but it is never used in regards God (Elohim) in Old Testmament http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html The word translated as "one" in the Shema Deureronomy "the Lord is one" is echad, which can be a plural one, as in "one flesh" Genesis 2:24 when a man and woman join together. Had the "royal we" been meant in using the plural, the absolute "one", yachid, would have been used in the Shema.


    Err you have look at the OT independent of the NT, Jesus in an independent witness.
    In Genesis 3:15 God says to the serpent that "he shall bruise your head", a particular man not just descends in general, not "they shall bruise your head".

    Jesus himself ask how could Pslam 110:1 "The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit in the highest position in heaven, until I put your enemies under your control" could refer to an ordinary human being when pslam writer calls calls the person "Lord".

    In Daniel 3:24 - 25, Nebuchadnezzar points out that 3 men were cast into the furnace, but 4 men were awalking around in ir, with the fourth having an appearance "like a son of god". There are clues like that scatter throughout the Old Testamenr.

    Well can't really say since I am pretty confident Genesis is an allegorical story creation made by iron age tribes adapted out of older myths that go back to the Sumerians, I not overly impressed about when people writing about Jesus reinterpret the Hebrew scripture.
    Genesis as we have it was written written by civilized people with established kingdom and cities, even if their source material myths ofniron age tribes. Israel at the time wasn't much more teibal than ancient Rome, where the Roman populace was theoretically divided into tribes.

    As far as reinterpreting scripture, that is an ancient tradition practiced by Jews as well as well as Christians and not really different than the way people reinterpret the Constitution. You will nkt find any reference to abortion, or gay marriages in the US Constitution. Re-interpretation is what humans do.

  11. #231
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    I'll throw in a comment or two here... Just because...

    ***

    The context...

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    ... Islam and its beliefs have created a religion that managed to produce a pathetic 3 Nobel prize winners in science, and one of them was an Ahmaddiya which many Muslims don't regard as true Muslims, but those Muslims are wrong.

    (The Ahmaddiyyas believe in the 5 pillars of Islam and the 6 basic Muslims beliefs, and Muhammad being the seal of the prophets, if not the last prophet itself. That 1.78 billion Muslims carn only produce 2 Nobel prize winners in science I think which position is more likely true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...obel_laureates.
    And its response...

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Cheap shot. How many years was anyone but a white, European (or decent) male the only likely choice. Come on Gandhi could not win one.
    It is not a cheap shot, its a fact. After all, anyone who can read a chart can see that such a statement is BS. For instance, Japan got 28 prizes, India got 11 prizes and Argentina got 5 prizes - and neither of those countries are European. Besides, in 1903 the first woman got a prize as well (and as the prizes were first established 1901 - it thus took two gigantic years in order to award the first female scientist. Yup, two years from inception - hardly a long time, now is it? A female was thus awarded the Prize even before women could legally vote in Sweden (which was 1919)! Other then that, anyone familiar with some world-history knows that Europe was (at the time) the place to be in terms of science, this all the way up 1945-46. Then primarily the USA replaced Europe in this regard (and this in various ways, and some dubious too). And to top it all off, for a very long time (maybe even still) most active scientists were men (so it is only natural - and to be expected - that most recipients would then be men as well, due to the fact). Does that exclude the possibility of female scientists? Nope it does not - just as the Nobel track record clearly shows... If in doubt, check wiki first hand, folks...

    Anyways, Islam is strikingly hopeless when it comes to produce world-class scientists (ever since the Nobel prize was established) - as pointed out - that's a fact, not some damn cheap shot. The PC-crowd and their ridiculous misguided "sensitiveness" towards Islam (and the Islamic world) be damned, I say. Preferably in hellfire - if we are going with the Mohammed-theme here (he probably would have loved that hellfire btw!). After all, there is no mercy, no place or no future for "kafirs" (unbelievers) in Islam (once its supremacy is secured). Regardless who you are (yeah, all PC-nuts and leftists included). That's another fact btw...


    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Again, all of this nonsense is reliant upon the words in the bible being true, the only evidence for which is the bible saying that they are true.
    Oh, it is familiar tune... The Koran makes the Bible look like mere kindergarten in that sense... After all, it is the ramblings of a singular man - interpreted and remembered by a horde of humans some 200-300 years after the fact (or something of the sort). Supposedly singular, perfect, divine and eternal , all at the same time - and yet we somehow have a bunch of clearly different Korans in use all around the world. And it has been that way for quite some time too. If memory serves there are some 26 distinct and different Korans out there (possibly more then that). Yup, its plenty...

    Btw, how many different Bible-versions are there? How many different Torahs? Any more then 26? ...Does any of them become extra magic and true if suddenly written or read in Arabic? As it stands, more then a billion people will gladly subscribe to that hopelessly ridiculous idea. Why? Because some nut said so... Would the Torah still be sacred if suddenly written and read in Swedish? If not, why? Does God supposedly not understand Swedish - or will he just refuse to listen to it as a sheer matter of principle? Why does the Swedes even exist then, I wonder? What's their purpose then (according to God)? And why was the Swedish language created in the first place - if God don't like it, supposedly... Is God not supposed to be omnipresent, all powerful and all-knowing, and kind? Or does all that supposedly only apply when we speak certain select and "magic" languages? ...And so forth, on and on...

    It does not add up, me thinks...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; August 15, 2020 at 06:25 AM. Reason: update & clarity...

  12. #232

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Only those who know little of history fail to credit the glorious scientific nature of Islam preserving and expanding the knowledge which would trickle in Dark Age Europe and play a significant role in sparking the Renaissance. If we are judging countries my Nobel Prizes we have to admit the US by far is the greatest country of them all. No where else comes close. Is that the argument? Americans are the smartest.


    There are more than 26 versions of the Bible to answer that idiotic question.
    Last edited by wanderwegger; August 10, 2020 at 10:59 PM. Reason: AQ

  13. #233

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    There is a Hebrew word that means absolute oneness, yachid, but it is never used in regards God (Elohim) in Old Testmament http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html The word translated as "one" in the Shema Deureronomy "the Lord is one" is echad, which can be a plural one, as in "one flesh" Genesis 2:24 when a man and woman join together. Had the "royal we" been meant in using the plural, the absolute "one", yachid, would have been used in the Shema.
    That's not really the difference between ᵓeḥāḏ (echad) and yāḥḏ (yachid). The word ᵓeḥāḏ is the numeral one, it functions the same as the English word "one" in every sense. The word yāḥḏ is a noun that means "only" or "lonely". It doesn't modify another word, so in Genesis 22:2 it doesn't literally say "your only son", it actually says "your only". The word appears in the Bible just twelve times, eight of those twelve times it refers to an only child (Genesis 22:2, Genesis 22:12, Genesis 22:16, Judges 11:34, Jeremiah 6:26, Amos 8:10, Zechariah 12:10, Proverbs 4:3). In Psalms 25:16 and Psalms 68:6 it refers to "lonely" people and in Psalms 22:20 and Psalms 35:17 it refers to a person's "only" life, which in this later case seems to be a somewhat poetic usage.

    The verbal root of yāḥḏ is y-ḥ-d, which means "to be designated" or "to be set aside". In no sense does it refer to an "absolute oneness", since when it is arranged as yaḥaḏ (parallel to the form of ᵓeḥāḏ) it literally means "together" as in 1 Samuel 11:11, Ezra 4:3, Psalms 49:2, and more than forty other instances.

    So returning to the phrase "Yahweh is one" in Deuteronomy 6:4, it is written Yahweh ᵓeḥāḏ. It would not be written Yahweh yāḥḏ, because that would mean "Yahweh is an only [child]" or "Yahweh is a lonely [person]". The grammar of the way it is written allows for the traditional Christian interpretation, for the same reason that "we are one" can be said in English, but conon is correct that there is no reason to assume this meaning without reading it through the interpretative lens of the New Testament.

    A historical explanation for the phrase is implied by the inscriptions found that refer to "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" or "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah". From the perspective of the biblical author, there is only one Yahweh and his temple is at Jerusalem, not Samaria, or Teman, or Bethel, etc.
    Last edited by sumskilz; August 11, 2020 at 02:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #234

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    That's not really the difference between ᵓeḥāḏ (echad) and yāḥḏ (yachid). The word ᵓeḥāḏ is the numeral one, it functions the same as the English word "one" in every sense. The word yāḥḏ is a noun that means "only" or "lonely". It doesn't modify another word, so in Genesis 22:2 it doesn't literally say "your only son", it actually says "your only". The word appears in the Bible just twelve times, eight of those twelve times it refers to an only child (Genesis 22:2, Genesis 22:12, Genesis 22:16, Judges 11:34, Jeremiah 6:26, Amos 8:10, Zechariah 12:10, Proverbs 4:3). In Psalms 25:16 and Psalms 68:6 it refers to "lonely" people and in Psalms 22:20 and Psalms 35:17 it refers to a person's "only" life, which in this later case seems to be a somewhat poetic usage.

    The verbal root of yāḥḏ is y-ḥ-d, which means "to be designated" or "to be set aside". In no sense does it refer to an "absolute oneness", since when it is arranged as yaḥaḏ (parallel to the form of ᵓeḥāḏ) it literally means "together" as in 1 Samuel 11:11, Ezra 4:3, Psalms 49:2, and more than forty other instances.

    So returning to the phrase "Yahweh is one" in Deuteronomy 6:4, it is written Yahweh ᵓeḥāḏ. It would not be written Yahweh yāḥḏ, because that would mean "Yahweh is an only [child]"
    I don't why saying "Yahweh is an only" would not work, not if the writers wanted to rule a Christian Trinitarian interpetation. You will agree, that there was Hebrew phrasing that could have been used thst would have completely ruled out thr pluralistic nature of God, yet that phrasing was not used.


    The grammar of the way it is written allows for the traditional Christian interpretation, for the same reason that "we are one" can be said in English, but conon is correct that there is no reason to assume this meaning without reading it through the interpretative lens of the New Testament.
    The grammar of the Old Testament could have been constructed in such a manner as it would have ruled out thr traditional Christian interpretaton, but it was not.

    A question - where in the Tanahk do we see a human figure actually using the "royal we". Do you have an actual example in ancient Hebrew where rulers were using the royal we. The fact it is used in English does not automatically means it was used in ancient Hebrew.

    And there are some verses in the bible where Yahweh seems to refer to himself.as if he were a separate person. Zechariah 2:10-11 for example. Such referring to yourself in the 3rd person is not necessarily explained by the royal we, although there are people who do in English refer to thenselves in the 3rd person. But do you have an edsmple of a human being doing so, similar to what God does in the Old Testament?

    A historical explanation for the phrase is implied by the inscriptions found that refer to "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" or "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah".
    You are aware that some scholars have taken "Yahweh and his Asherah" to mean thst Yahweh had, to some ancient Jews, a spouse ("his Asherah")? Currently the matter is under scholarly debate, although the ones who argue for spouse are in a very small minority.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 11, 2020 at 11:40 AM.

  15. #235
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Islam does not offer anything to its people other than perhaps mercy once they die. In other words it comes down to works that this mercy might be achieved but here is the problem. No sinner can enter heaven when he or she dies. They must be sinless to do that. Judaism offers heaven through its promised Messiah and Christianity reveals that Messiah in Jesus Christ. He is the reason that many Jews and Muslims are being converted and the only way they can be converted so that they can enter heaven.

  16. #236

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Islam does not offer anything to its people other than perhaps mercy once they die. In other words it comes down to works that this mercy might be achieved but here is the problem. No sinner can enter heaven when he or she dies. They must be sinless to do that. Judaism offers heaven through its promised Messiah and Christianity reveals that Messiah in Jesus Christ. He is the reason that many Jews and Muslims are being converted and the only way they can be converted so that they can enter heaven.
    Not true. You get judged based on your good and bad deeds. Just because one day you stole an apple doesn't mean you're automatically disqualified from entering heaven. Why did you make this up about Islam?
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  17. #237
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    but conon is correct that there is no reason to assume this meaning without reading it through the interpretative lens of the New Testament.
    Wow sumskilz you made my day I always feel a bit out to sea when looking at biblical translation/transliteration if it goes past Greek. Give me something I learned proper and had to write stuff about in Latin or Greek (as original) I am happy argue my own and confident in my take on it.
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    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #238
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not true. You get judged based on your good and bad deeds. Just because one day you stole an apple doesn't mean you're automatically disqualified from entering heaven. Why did you make this up about Islam?
    PointOfViewGun,

    At the fall of Adam and Eve the curse of sin was placed on all their offspring and so one didn't have to actually commit a sin because the curse was already in place thus separating man from God. The price asked by the Law for sin is blood and that blood can only be paid before one dies. What that means is that not one person was or is able to enter heaven unless shed blood took away their sin before their death. There isn't a Muslim alive or dead in which their good works could ever get them into this paradise. The hope is that God will show mercy but that mercy must come before death and so how does God do that? Well, He came into the world as a sinless man to die on a cross so that His blood could satisfy the Law and pay for the sins of all them He died for. Jesus Christ did that but Mohammed blocked that from your minds by placing himself above the Son of God. So, if one steals an apple that is sin and added to the curse makes sin even worse in the eyes of God so the only course of freedom from sin is Jesus Christ.

  19. #239
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    At the fall of Adam and Eve the curse of sin was placed on all their offspring and so one didn't have to actually commit a sin because the curse was already in place thus separating man from God
    Noted as usual I am always surprised you accept such a capricious god willing to use such a punishment one even humans typically reject = blood attainder

    What that means is that not one person was or is able to enter heaven unless shed blood took away their sin before their death. There isn't a Muslim alive or dead in which their good works could ever get them into this paradise.
    Also means again God was again capricious since Jesus failed to show up a lot of people that even had the potential and believed never got the opportunity.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #240

    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I don't why saying "Yahweh is an only" would not work, not if the writers wanted to rule a Christian Trinitarian interpetation.
    I can't be certain that it wouldn't be said. My assumption is that it wouldn't since a yāḥḏ was generally an only child or a lonely person. I don't think there is a good way to express "absolute oneness", maybe raq ᵓeḥāḏ which is like "only one" or "but one", but this is kind of diminishing so not really appropriate.

    There is no historical argument to be made for them wanting to rule out a Trinitarian interpretation since it would be anachronistic. Either the text was meant to express the Trinitarian nature of God, which would be an argument dependent on particular supernatural beliefs about revelation, or the authors likely would have been completely unaware of that theological position. I can see some room for a middle ground between these two options, but none that is supported by strictly historical evidence. Which is the perspective I generally speak from, since it's related to my profession, and I don't have much interest in engaging in metaphysical debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    A question - where in the Tanahk do we see a human figure actually using the "royal we". Do you have an actual example in ancient Hebrew where rulers were using the royal we. The fact it is used in English does not automatically means it was used in ancient Hebrew.
    The Canaanite languages, including Biblical Hebrew, have at least two types of plurals - numerical and abstract. Abstract plurals express the conditions or qualities inherent in the word stem, for example, the words for "blindness", "contempt", "life", "nobility", "old age" and "vengeance" are all plural. Some abstract plurals can be used to reference an individual or object that is exemplary of the quality or to which the status applies. For example, in Daniel 9:23, Daniel is told that he is ḥămūḏōwṯ, which is a feminine abstract plural based on the verb meaning "to be desired". The meaning is that Daniel is a desirable or highly esteemed man. If one misunderstood this as a numerical plural, one would think Daniel is being told that he is a group of desirable women. Context precludes this, not just because of the absurdity, but because the verb in the sentence meaning "you are" is masculine single.

    So with this in mind, the plural ᵓĕlōhm can be understood as a numerical plural meaning "gods" or as a plural abstract meaning "divinity" or "the divine". The disagreement between the case ending and accompanying verbs suggests that when it is used to indicate God in the monotheistic sense, it is being used as an abstract plural, but there are many examples of the abstract plural being used for a deity by polytheistic Canaanites.

    The Amarna letters are written in a variant of the Old Babylonian Akkadian dialect that became a lingua franca in the Bronze Age. The Akkadian of the letters from the Canaanite city states show considerable influence from the scribes' native Canaanite language. The letters from the coastal cities, from modern Gaza up to northern modern Lebanon, consistently used the plural ilānu to refer to singular deities. Whereas those from the highlands almost always used the singular ilu. The textual evidence taken as a whole indicates that the plural started to be used on the coast some time in the Middle Bronze and became typical by the Late Bronze, whereas in the highlands, the singular was still used. This would explain why older Hebrew texts use ᵓēl rather than ᵓĕlōhm. The idea being that the Israelites adopted the language patterns of the wealthy coastal cities when they expanded out of the highlands. Using the abstract plural was likely seen as more elegant or at least more prestigious.

    Further evidence that this was a convention of applying the abstract plural to single deities comes from Phoenician, since the Phoenician dialect of Canaanite distinguishes between numerical and abstract plurals in their spelling. The numerical plural in Phoenician is ᵓĕlōnm (spelled ᵓlnm) whereas the abstract plural is ᵓĕlm (spelled ᵓlm). There are a few inscriptions that makes this particularly clear, for example: babbāyiṯ ᵓĕlm ᶜatrṯ (bbṯ ᵓlm ᶜtrt) meaning "in the house of the divine Ashtart". Here "the divine" is the masculine abstract plural despite Ashtart being a singular female deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    You are aware that some scholars have taken "Yahweh and his Asherah" to mean thst Yahweh had, to some ancient Jews, a spouse ("his Asherah")? Currently the matter is under scholarly debate, although the ones who argue for spouse are in a very small minority.
    I don't consider it controversial. According 2 Kings 23, prior to Josiah's reforms the temple in Jerusalem contained statues of Asherah and quarters for women who made weavings for Asherah. Clay goddess figurines are really common finds in Iron II Judahite cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Wow sumskilz you made my day I always feel a bit out to sea when looking at biblical translation/transliteration if it goes past Greek. Give me something I learned proper and had to write stuff about in Latin or Greek (as original) I am happy argue my own and confident in my take on it.
    There are certainly times when having your level of knowledge on so many things Hellenic relating to the period I research would come in handy, but there are only so many hours in a day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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