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Thread: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

  1. #201
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil 03 View Post
    OK, so Jesus's death saved the future converts from being punished for their sins. Why does this mean that Christians may disregard the law to begin with?
    Both statements are false. Christ gifted everybody a place in heaven however one must still enter it. You can enter heaven by freeing yourself from your earthly passions and devoting your soul to God though faith AND acts. The more you devote yourself to God the more He will help you keep His law and carry the burden of preparing your soul to enter heaven.

    Christians are not freed from sin, as various protestants will lie to you. It is the duty of every Christian to strive to emulate Christ and approach deification on a daily basis. Failure to emulate and behave like Christ is the only sin a Christian can commit, and it is a sin because it pushes you away from God and from your rightful place in heaven.

    The idea that anybody is "saved" while still alive is the fastest way to hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    If God is with those who always forgive, he is with everything and with everyone and thus dissolves into trivial sophistry.
    God is always with everyone and loves everyone unconditionally. You just have to turn to Him with a sincere heart.
    Last edited by Settra; July 09, 2020 at 12:17 PM.
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  2. #202
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    See, this is why I find this question difficult to even approach. All three religions have a wide range of theologies, even Judaism with its few practitioners. I think that the reformed tradition is a genuinely unique belief system, which is partly why I (basically) believe it. But here you are describing salvation as some kind of mystic self-denial that people initiate and do, leaving God to do nothing more than ... assist as needed? Ultimately forgive a repentant person of their faults? There's a lot of Christians who don't believe that. I mean, come on, that just sounds a lot like how Muslims believe they are saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    We are simply forced to "forgive" our "sinners" eventually. Jesus or not. It is only easy to forgive, because it is so much harder to retaliate in a way that pacifies things in ones' own interests. If you look deep down inside yourself, you will find it very easy to retaliate.

    If God is with those who always forgive, he is with everything and with everyone and thus dissolves into trivial sophistry.
    Until someone discovers the Babel fish, I guess that's the best we're going to get.
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  3. #203
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Actually God does most of the work since it is impossible for humans to stick to God's law alone.

    I don't know what Islam believes, I simply described the beliefs of early Christianity (anybody who does not believe me is free to read the teachings of the apostles and the church fathers on the matter). Islam have been heavily influenced by early Christianity, some Islamic scholars even going so far as to claim that Islam started out as a Nestorian heresy.
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    The questions of whether the early church was closer to the reformed tradition or not is something of a quibble. For example, I think that Augustine (who is somehow something of the darling to almost all of Christianity) was pretty firmly opposed to the Pelagianism of his day. Whether or not he had the beliefs of a modern, reformed Christian will only have a vague answer because the ingredients weren't there at the time. Obviously, like any good Protestant, I will only care about what "the" early church believed up to a certain point. When you said:

    "Christ gifted everybody a place in heaven however one must still enter it. You can enter heaven by freeing yourself from your earthly passions and devoting your soul to God though faith AND acts."
    and
    "The idea that anybody is 'saved' while still alive is the fastest way to hell."

    I have a hard time squaring that with what I believe, which is that God saves sinners. We don't, and can't, do anything meaningful to change being in the human condition. I think that Elendil's first statement was correct. I would've said that Christians don't disregard the law. The purpose of the law was to set Israel apart from the other nations in anticipation for one of its descendants to fulfill it perfectly and then act as an ultimate sacrifice to save people from all nations. The law is used to measure people who do not accept grace.
    Being a little bit more kind and nuanced on the internet can go a long way.
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  5. #205
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    pacifism,

    The answer to any question regarding salvation lies in the very word of God which of course is the Bible. Scripture clearly states that God is that source through Jesus Christ's one action at the cross for all them that God the Father gave to Him to be saved by His blood on that day. All those people from Abel on to all them as yet to be born and them only are saved. These are the people who are called the elect of God, no others. Every action in the salvation process is directed by God's Three Persons which begins with condemnation by the Spirit working on the hardened heart. Then comes the cry for repentance which again is a gift from God followed by the broken and contrite heart which God seeks before regeneration. Once regeneration takes place Christ bestows the gift of faith from Him to them plus the indwelling by the Holy Spirit thus securing their justification. That is how God's word relates how Christians are made. It is all of God just as the Reformers preached coming from what the Bible tells us. Any man or woman who thinks that they play any part in their own salvation are quite wrong.

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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifism View Post
    The questions of whether the early church was closer to the reformed tradition or not is something of a quibble. For example, I think that Augustine (who is somehow something of the darling to almost all of Christianity) was pretty firmly opposed to the Pelagianism of his day.
    I'm not sure I'd use Augustine as a base as he is kind of seen as an unofficial heretic in half the Christian world. Catholics like to drone on about him, true, but Protestants dislike him and the Orthodox openly repudiate him for his borderline Arian and Manichean writings.

    The questions of whether the early church was closer to the reformed tradition or not is something of a quibble
    I disagree. The reformation (and Catholicism) took the original message of love one another and God with all your being, and turned into a blind checklist of things to mindlessly follow. That is not trivial

    I have a hard time squaring that with what I believe, which is that God saves sinners. We don't, and can't, do anything meaningful to change being in the human condition. I think that Elendil's first statement was correct. I would've said that Christians don't disregard the law. The purpose of the law was to set Israel apart from the other nations in anticipation for one of its descendants to fulfill it perfectly and then act as an ultimate sacrifice to save people from all nations. The law is used to measure people who do not accept grace.
    Yes you can. You can strive to be better, and of course you will fail by yourself, but this is where God comes in. As you do God's work, God will work though you and help you keep his law. As an example you can take the many monks and nuns who live alone in the desert yet literately soar in a spiritual sense of the world.

    As Christ himself said "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." The whole point is that faith demands a life that corresponds to that faith. You have to crucify your flesh with your passions and lust, as saint Paul puts it, in order to submit yourself to the Kingdom of God, and the more you struggle in this the more you will take on "the yoke of Christ" and the more he will help you carry it up Golgotha to the Kingdom of God.


    Christ had a thing to say about people who claim that simply beliving or being born is enough: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"


    Anyway this guy explains it better than I ever will
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    pacifism,

    The answer to any question regarding salvation lies in the very word of God which of course is the Bible. Scripture clearly states that God is that source through Jesus Christ's one action at the cross for all them that God the Father gave to Him to be saved by His blood on that day. All those people from Abel on to all them as yet to be born and them only are saved. These are the people who are called the elect of God, no others. Every action in the salvation process is directed by God's Three Persons which begins with condemnation by the Spirit working on the hardened heart. Then comes the cry for repentance which again is a gift from God followed by the broken and contrite heart which God seeks before regeneration. Once regeneration takes place Christ bestows the gift of faith from Him to them plus the indwelling by the Holy Spirit thus securing their justification. That is how God's word relates how Christians are made. It is all of God just as the Reformers preached coming from what the Bible tells us. Any man or woman who thinks that they play any part in their own salvation are quite wrong.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    The reformation (and Catholicism) took the original message of love one another and God with all your being, and turned into a blind checklist of things to mindlessly follow. That is not trivial
    I won't touch that jab just because I find it vague. What the early church did and taught isn't necessarily trivial, but it's not essential either. By early church, I mean before Constantine and Nicaea. Even in those earliest centuries of Christianity, there were Christian thinkers going overboard with the Greek-style allegorization of the Bible, non-Trinitarian views of God, ransom theory of atonement, and so on.

    The point is that the early church is not the same thing as the biblical church. Being able to read the writings of someone only a few generations removed from the apostles is valuable and helpful, but not authoritative. If we turned this into an argument about theology into an argument about what the early church believed, I think that would be a bit of a red herring. That's all I'm saying.

    Yes you can. You can strive to be better, and of course you will fail by yourself, but this is where God comes in. As you do God's work, God will work though you and help you keep his law. As an example you can take the many monks and nuns who live alone in the desert yet literately soar in a spiritual sense of the world.

    As Christ himself said "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." The whole point is that faith demands a life that corresponds to that faith. You have to crucify your flesh with your passions and lust, as saint Paul puts it, in order to submit yourself to the Kingdom of God, and the more you struggle in this the more you will take on "the yoke of Christ" and the more he will help you carry it up Golgotha to the Kingdom of God.

    Christ had a thing to say about people who claim that simply beliving or being born is enough: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

    Anyway this guy explains it better than I ever will
    I don't really disagree with what Father Trenham said. I wasn't being terrible scrutinous, but I think he only neglected to mention where a Christian's love of God ultimately comes from. I mean, read the two verses before the ones you quoted from Matthew 11. I'm not really arguing about sanctification. Anyone who reads James and 1 John knows that the Bible is clear that our beliefs call us to action. Good works are the fruit of salvation, not the root. I'm talking about salvation. To portray salvation -- which is what Elendil was talking about -- as something we do with God's help is disingenuous. I believe the Bible is clear that no one seeks after God. God doesn't do most of the work, but all of it.
    Being a little bit more kind and nuanced on the internet can go a long way.
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    Looking back, I think I would find me-from-the-past to be an insufferable idiot if I ever had the displeasure of meeting him.

  8. #208
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Islam really the sams religion as Judaism ans Christianity?

    For many years the book of James was controversial because many believed that works went alongside of salvation but from reading his book one can see that the works he talks of are to be the result ol salvation not the cause of it. On reading carefully one can see he is talking to saved people about their conduct now that they are saved. When the Bible was being brought together there were some that did not want James' book included because they thought wrongly that he was saying works and salvation went together.

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