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Thread: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

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    Default FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Since TW has already visited the medieval time period twice, a closer look at Feudalism would make the game more distinct yet still be set in this very popular time period. The earlier Medieval games were based around 1080-1500 A.D. I think a game based on feudalism around 850-1250 that brought the unique age to life more so than the earlier TW games would be highly successful.


    Instead of being a renaissance type absolute King of an entire Kingdom, each player would start as a Feudal Lord King who needed the cooperate with his Lords to accomplish larger goals. The lower Lord's loyalty rating towards you [based on your actions] would determine the tax money and recruits you received from them. You would have your own royal army and could expand especially aginst single cities or castles, but it would not be the entire realms army. So wars would be much smaller in scale for the most part. Larger wars between whole Kingdoms would only come about if you were able to get the support of your lords under you. If you taxed them to much or don't allow them autonomy, they would be less likely to lend support and might even rebel against you. Lords normally would contribute money or men to the crown but if you need more you might call for muster. A particular Lord who usually gives good support holds back this time leaving you in a bind. Or perhaps a Lord lends more than usual. However the more you muster the less that Lord has for defense if attacked. He might be calling on you for help if you muster to much of his forces.

    You could receive missions from Lords to improve your standing with them or ignore them and it would hurt your standing with them. Likewise, a powerful Lord of another Kingdom might give you a mission to work to dethrone the king of another realm. Lords would be more independent, some might go on crusade with you or refuse to follow you as King if you go. The peasants might be having trouble with a Lord and ask you for help, do you join the peasants or the Lord? how would that affect your reputation?

  2. #2
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    That would be more realistic... but it's not what Total War games are about IMO.
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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    So something like mix of Crusaders King III, Knights of Honour II and current Bannerlord II right?

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1...der_Kings_III/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/7...II__Sovereign/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/2...II_Bannerlord/

    Well due to Corona it looks like all TW products are pushed little....Wh2 DLC news -> May so release date at earliest -> June ....so that is putting TW Saga:Troy at end of August/September 2020, which is putting Wh3 at best in May 2021. After that if we accept there might be follow up title for 3K ala Attila,Napoleon...let´s call it Genghis Khan in 2022 that is putting any new title at 2023/2024 at best.

    At which point this discussion would be for long forgotten and we can quess if Empire 2, Medieval 3 or something like TW: Tolkien will be next project....Because right now it seems Fantasy >> History. Don´t get me wrong, i love all TWs, even ToB but we will see with sale performance of Troy and especially Wh3.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  4. #4

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    So something like mix of Crusaders King III, Knights of Honour II and current Bannerlord II right?

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1...der_Kings_III/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/7...II__Sovereign/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/2...II_Bannerlord/

    Well due to Corona it looks like all TW products are pushed little....Wh2 DLC news -> May so release date at earliest -> June ....so that is putting TW Saga:Troy at end of August/September 2020, which is putting Wh3 at best in May 2021. After that if we accept there might be follow up title for 3K ala Attila,Napoleon...let´s call it Genghis Khan in 2022 that is putting any new title at 2023/2024 at best.

    At which point this discussion would be for long forgotten and we can quess if Empire 2, Medieval 3 or something like TW: Tolkien will be next project....Because right now it seems Fantasy >> History. Don´t get me wrong, i love all TWs, even ToB but we will see with sale performance of Troy and especially Wh3.

    I tried crusader kings, never could get into it or figure it out sadly. Mount and blade seems a FPS not based much on history. Knights of Honor is a RTS it seems, I hate Rts games.


    Tolkien Total war would be great.

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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Sounds like a really great concept, honestly. I'm inclined to agree with alhoon that it doesn't sound like something that would be a Total War game, but it'd be a really cool game to play if whoever made it gets the AI right.

    +rep for an interesting thread.
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    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    If Total War really wanted to be ambitious, this could be a spinoff of some sort. I do think it's not necessarily appropriate for the main line, but a game worth making.

  7. #7

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Maybe like a Saga?

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    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by 18611096 View Post
    Maybe like a Saga?
    Tricky, if we're being realistic. I thought of that too at first, and that is the way the series can introduce odd angles and be creative without devoting a full context map to it. To see the idea to its potential though, I think it would have to be bigger, and it's also a change in direction I honestly don't see CA doing now short of a miracle or being forced to evolve.

    Ideally, I see Sagas as testbeds for changing the formula or otherwise something new in addition; in practice, it seems like an opportunity to put out a holdover game that requires much less effort to do while trying something serious elsewhere. In either case I'm afraid the priorities you suggest would radically change the idea of the game to the point where, per above, it's not really a total war thing to fit Saga's scope anymore, but a true spinoff in concept. A risk, even. Not one I see CA taking.

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Well and this is exactly where we are hitting rock from opposite side....If we go and read reviews for ToB, one common is - game is not full fledge TW, it feels cheap, why certain aspects are not here (agents, ambushes), why certain aspects were made more important (focus on characters...)

    Which in turn didn´t help to ToB reputation. Looking at scores and player counts. And people often keep rehersing things they hear....

    I have the game, love the game...actually already finished all achievements. For me the game is good enough and in general i would say it is very great introduction title into series. For new players if they know nothing about formula and don´t want to spend 100+ bucks to get all DLCs etc right now. :-)

    But point is, trying to shake the formule is double edge sword..... Let´s see how Troy will go
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  10. #10

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Well and this is exactly where we are hitting rock from opposite side....If we go and read reviews for ToB, one common is - game is not full fledge TW, it feels cheap, why certain aspects are not here (agents, ambushes), why certain aspects were made more important (focus on characters...)

    Which in turn didn´t help to ToB reputation. Looking at scores and player counts. And people often keep rehersing things they hear....

    I have the game, love the game...actually already finished all achievements. For me the game is good enough and in general i would say it is very great introduction title into series. For new players if they know nothing about formula and don´t want to spend 100+ bucks to get all DLCs etc right now. :-)

    But point is, trying to shake the formule is double edge sword..... Let´s see how Troy will go

    How is the campaign mp? can you play past the victory conditions? how many can play online?

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by 18611096 View Post
    How is the campaign mp? can you play past the victory conditions? how many can play online?
    No idea. I play singleplayer/Legendary. Don´t care about MP at all..

    But to amuse you, I started ToB. Right now there were two MP campaigns going on plus you can start your own MP campaign for two players. Plus there are normal MP battles, quick battles up to 4vs4 players/AIs.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Last edited by Daruwind; April 12, 2020 at 10:58 AM.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by 18611096 View Post
    I tried crusader kings, never could get into it or figure it out sadly. Mount and blade seems a FPS not based much on history. Knights of Honor is a RTS it seems, I hate Rts games.


    Tolkien Total war would be great.
    Mount and Blade may be set in a fictional universe but it is the best and most realistic strategy game for medieval time.

    That said, I can not wait until CA release Medieval III total war. It has been far too long. Enough with fantasy games and exotic settings

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    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    I think the series needs a change of attitude in general for a Medieval 3 to be more than a mild appeasement to people looking for a historical context. If you like where Total War has gone mechanically, fair enough. But I'd say it's precisely mechanics that need a good eye before a Medieval 3 can truly shine.

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    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    I agree but I do not have hope on that side :/

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    So what of a Saga based on the crusader states then as a poster suggested? It would have perhaps 4-5 factions split between Muslims and crusader state starting in 1100 A.D Set during a very popular time period.

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    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    It's a good period for Total War, but there are political nuances that I'm not sure CA would want to involve in.

  17. #17

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    It's a good period for Total War, but there are political nuances that I'm not sure CA would want to involve in.
    Its sad when Political correctness even effects games.

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    What could possibly go wrong...... I can easily imagine full Med3 but hardly Saga about crusades. Look even at Crusader King games. The scope, factions, map. If you framework/limit map, factions just to such religion conflict, it will inevitably stir some some people. We can thousand time say it is history, people are dumb but it is still truth today.

    So full Med 3 with whole Europe, Middle-east, Africa - yes. Because narrative is not on that particular one conflict.
    Saga about Middle-east crusades. Nope.

    ---------------------------

    Main issue is what is anybody imagining under term "next historical TW game". Hardcore players, old players, casual players...something different will be vision from CA definitely influenced by recent trends. And we can easily look at recent facts.

    R2 - mixed opinion, initial great hype, bad release, in years got better. (Despite CA own mistakes with hype, probably success)
    Attila - bad reputation, partly due to people boycotting CA after R2 and partly due to performance issue, great game but in terms or owners,players weaker
    ToB - again CA possibly badly picked theme, scope would better suit to FotS expansion/fix for Attila than to be judged as full standalone title, so again weaker result
    Wh(s) - massive success no matter what, DLCs, two games, third on way. Very well picked IP, suitable for TW.
    3K - massive success, but probalby mostly in the east

    Troy will be big test, after all it is historical setting as 3K is. With focus on characters like 3K but still historical setting. If it is not massive success I bet the next tent-pole TW entry will have again massive Ip behind it. Warcraft, Tolkien.... Simply putting as of lately CA has troubles with historical games. Definitely it is partly CA fault but still it can push CA people into more fictional direction...Wh is success, why not repeat it.

    ---------------------------
    But not to be so pesimistic. I would love to see some changes to TW as well.

    I was watching some Mount and Blade II videos and while game seems superb for Early Access and cannot say the combat is so amusing to me. It seems too much chaotic, no formations or at least resemblance of one. But I understand that the number of men is more for some skirmish than for full scale battle. That is one area I prefer TW. Despite recent limited focus on formation the units at least are keeping something like unit cohesion or battle line.

    Crusader Kings or even Imperator Rome are more than chore. Too much statistics, basically that is way too much complexity.

    Definitely I´m looking to Knights of Honour II.

    And my ideal TW would bring together aspects of all those. I already wrote it today at one 3K thread
    I can imagine a lot things and actually discussed a lot things and I would like to see a lot things in game. However I´m not great game designer thus probably my version would not be so popular...

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15556369

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15782437

    tl dr;

    I would love too bigger part for enviroment. Passive even active....so anything from various terrain type, dynamic weather ...to effects like dynamic fire on vegetation..Garrissonable building, buildable x destructable bridges, more deployables...

    Plus bigger role for army. Actually 3K is move in my direction. Basic idea is main army leader with multiple subcommanders for particular (optional) army part...like scouting, frontguard, rearguard, main ..body, flanks, baggage train...Plus getting rid of 20 army limit. Just put there mechanics for upkeep/food consuption per turn and just good commanders with good quertermasters and skills will be able to bring around big armies..or not pay all money just for one big army.
    Not sure about first person mod. But honestly after all those years, it would be great. Bigger focus on unit cohesion and really massive battles (yeah it is easy to say so). Add some more complex army, empire management system but not to Crusader Kings level.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    I think you guys are really exaggerating about the taboo nature of a Crusaders game. Political correctness is often lambasted for its nefarious influence, but I have yet to see any concrete example that justifies such a negative perception. If I remember correctly, the only instance of such a policy in the Total War series was when the slave resource was modified into ivory tusks in Empire. It was a relatively minor change, which is not even remotely similar to the revenue loss of rejecting a Saga game focused on the Crusaders. It doesn't even sound very politically correct, given the controversy surrounding elephant poaching...

    Meanwhile, in 2006 and 2007, when the memory of the Madrid, New York and London attacks was still recent, when the Iraqi insurgency had reached its peak and when the Taliban were still fighting with coalition troops in Afghanistan, CA released Medieval II and its expansion, where the player was actively encouraged to delcare Crusades, Jihads, massacre infidels and convert the survivors to the one, true dogma. Not to mention churches being automatically demolished, when the city was conquered by a faction of a different creed, and heretics, imams and priests being burned alive, assassinated by thugs or executed by the Holy Inquisition. So, yeah, colour me skeptical about CA refusing a lucrative opportunity for the sake of not offending a group, which probably doesn't exist anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Main issue is what is anybody imagining under term "next historical TW game". Hardcore players, old players, casual players...something different will be vision from CA definitely influenced by recent trends. And we can easily look at recent facts.

    R2 - mixed opinion, initial great hype, bad release, in years got better. (Despite CA own mistakes with hype, probably success)
    Attila - bad reputation, partly due to people boycotting CA after R2 and partly due to performance issue, great game but in terms or owners,players weaker
    ToB - again CA possibly badly picked theme, scope would better suit to FotS expansion/fix for Attila than to be judged as full standalone title, so again weaker result
    Wh(s) - massive success no matter what, DLCs, two games, third on way. Very well picked IP, suitable for TW.
    3K - massive success, but probalby mostly in the east.
    Some of them look more like opinions. There's no organised movement to boycott Attila, although it is true that many were disappointed by the dismal state of Rome II and the extremely misleading marketing campaign. Attila sold less, mainly because of its more obscure setting and the fact that it was an expansion in all (including advertisement) but name. In my opinion, the game is also rather mediocre, relying on cheap gimmicks to simulate a challenge which otherwise it is incapable of providing, while it also suffers from glaring performance issues, Creative Assembly unsuccessfully tried to hide under the rug. Finally, SEGA would sure love to exploit the Tolkien franchise, but there's no time for it being the next tent-pole title. We firstly need to hear news about productive negotiations and the signing of the relevant contract, before we start dreaming about it. Creative Assembly's cooperation with Games Workshop was published at least since 2012, that is 3 and 4 years before the announcement and release of the first part of the Warhammer trilogy.

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    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I think you guys are really exaggerating about the taboo nature of a Crusaders game. Political correctness is often lambasted for its nefarious influence, but I have yet to see any concrete example that justifies such a negative perception.
    For my part, I do not say that it will have backlash or that they will be overly paranoid. Simply that their current direction looks like appeasement to the flow of the wind, and that they may consider the given era to be just a tad too sticky in favor of a different historical period or leaning harder into the fantasy elements that are growing in their base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Some of them look more like opinions. There's no organised movement to boycott Attila, although it is true that many were disappointed by the dismal state of Rome II and the extremely misleading marketing campaign. Attila sold less, mainly because of its more obscure setting and the fact that it was an expansion in all (including advertisement) but name. In my opinion, the game is also rather mediocre, relying on cheap gimmicks to simulate a challenge which otherwise it is incapable of providing, while it also suffers from glaring performance issues, Creative Assembly unsuccessfully tried to hide under the rug.
    And for that matter, ToB wasn't a badly picked theme, it was a badly assembled experience that by and large came off as Boring. As. . Whatever your personal opinions of it, there clearly wasn't much to impress the wider audience.

    Having seen Attila's release myself, it had nothing to do with 'organized boycott', the most there might have been was 'this isn't very new, is it'. I and quite a few others based on my steam and discord escapades for a while had more of an impression that it was a lipsticked expansion to Rome 2 - fundamentally the same game with a bunch of gimmicks tossed in. Poor evolution from game to game because it felt, in a way, lazy, and the same certainly for ToB. But for more front and center issues, horrible performance and questionable appeal due to the odd gimmicks of the game. It's worth noting that it had a good run, especially early on in relation to Rome 2 regardless. There were pretty decent bases that outright migrated to Attila. Even in modding you can see where this happened. Then Rome 2 got better and ended up winning out on the long game.
    Last edited by Imperator Majora; April 14, 2020 at 05:31 AM.

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