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Thread: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    snip.
    Stiring people produces sales. Doing boring [to many] subjects as TW has been doing historically leads to loss of sales. I have not been interested in a historic TW for some time and have not purchased one since Rome 2, it was awful. I hold out hope for one being done on a time period of my interest.

    I agree TW needs changes. I just dont think that will happen, and why would it? it is profitable as is. I think it does much better fit fantasy such as warhammer. Lord of the Rings would be the ultimate TW game IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I think you guys are really exaggerating about the taboo nature of a Crusaders game. Political correctness is often lambasted for its nefarious influence, but I have yet to see any concrete example that justifies such a negative perception. If I remember correctly, the only instance of such a policy in the Total War series was when the slave resource was modified into ivory tusks in Empire. It was a relatively minor change, which is not even remotely similar to the revenue loss of rejecting a Saga game focused on the Crusaders. It doesn't even sound very politically correct, given the controversy surrounding elephant poaching...

    Meanwhile, in 2006 and 2007, when the memory of the Madrid, New York and London attacks was still recent, when the Iraqi insurgency had reached its peak and when the Taliban were still fighting with coalition troops in Afghanistan, CA released Medieval II and its expansion, where the player was actively encouraged to delcare Crusades, Jihads, massacre infidels and convert the survivors to the one, true dogma. Not to mention churches being automatically demolished, when the city was conquered by a faction of a different creed, and heretics, imams and priests being burned alive, assassinated by thugs or executed by the Holy Inquisition. So, yeah, colour me skeptical about CA refusing a lucrative opportunity for the sake of not offending a group, which probably doesn't exist anyway...
    Agreed. I think PC is really only for rich white people to pat themselves on their backs. I think in real life controversy would drive sales upwards. Atilla has no interest to me nor does troy or 3 kingdoms, I have bought none of them. Crusades? sign me up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    SEGA would sure love to exploit the Tolkien franchise, but there's no time for it being the next tent-pole title. We firstly need to hear news about productive negotiations and the signing of the relevant contract, before we start dreaming about it. Creative Assembly's cooperation with Games Workshop was published at least since 2012, that is 3 and 4 years before the announcement and release of the first part of the Warhammer trilogy.
    I think the best game imaginable would be a third age total war. Is there any rumors that Sega would like the Tolkien franchise?
    Last edited by Frunk; April 14, 2020 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Posts merged; first quote snipped for easier viewing.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I think you guys are really exaggerating about the taboo nature of a Crusaders game. Political correctness is often lambasted for its nefarious influence, but I have yet to see any concrete example that justifies such a negative perception. If I remember correctly, the only instance of such a policy in the Total War series was when the slave resource was modified into ivory tusks in Empire. It was a relatively minor change, which is not even remotely similar to the revenue loss of rejecting a Saga game focused on the Crusaders. It doesn't even sound very politically correct, given the controversy surrounding elephant poaching...

    Meanwhile, in 2006 and 2007, when the memory of the Madrid, New York and London attacks was still recent, when the Iraqi insurgency had reached its peak and when the Taliban were still fighting with coalition troops in Afghanistan, CA released Medieval II and its expansion, where the player was actively encouraged to delcare Crusades, Jihads, massacre infidels and convert the survivors to the one, true dogma. Not to mention churches being automatically demolished, when the city was conquered by a faction of a different creed, and heretics, imams and priests being burned alive, assassinated by thugs or executed by the Holy Inquisition. So, yeah, colour me skeptical about CA refusing a lucrative opportunity for the sake of not offending a group, which probably doesn't exist anyway...

    Some of them look more like opinions. There's no organised movement to boycott Attila, although it is true that many were disappointed by the dismal state of Rome II and the extremely misleading marketing campaign. Attila sold less, mainly because of its more obscure setting and the fact that it was an expansion in all (including advertisement) but name. In my opinion, the game is also rather mediocre, relying on cheap gimmicks to simulate a challenge which otherwise it is incapable of providing, while it also suffers from glaring performance issues, Creative Assembly unsuccessfully tried to hide under the rug. Finally, SEGA would sure love to exploit the Tolkien franchise, but there's no time for it being the next tent-pole title. We firstly need to hear news about productive negotiations and the signing of the relevant contract, before we start dreaming about it. Creative Assembly's cooperation with Games Workshop was published at least since 2012, that is 3 and 4 years before the announcement and release of the first part of the Warhammer trilogy.
    I don´t think it is taboo. After all we have slaves in Rome 2/Attila/Wh, we have Taiwan and probably will have Korea in 3K plus all the examples you provided :-) ... But one thing is to construct general medieval game - let´s say Crusader Kings, TW Med 2....where even despite crusade/jihad mechanics it is not just about those. You have all possible conflict between France, England, Germany...even muslim factions. Everyone killing everybody else....But imagine Saga (or just a game) focusing on middle east region during crusades. It is unnecessarry focus on that religion conflict in that particular time period. Nobody cares about some slaves for Dark Elves in Wh, even affair with female generals in one R2 DLC was way overestimated but ask yourself, would you produce game solely about slave mechanic during 16-17 century for example? Carribean, Africa...hauling slaves around to boost income/production of plantations? Such TW probably will get full stop. For me this is similar story for Crusades..Not because it is dumb, just because you can pick different place/time without possible controversy. :-)

    Those assessment were purely mine very short generalization in a few words. Surely we can talk lengthly about every TW But main point was for every latest historical TW there was some kind of controversy or problem. Even CA said ToB is success in their eyes after all but can they compete with Wh level of success? Because it is not necessarry choice between failure and success but between bigger and lesser success.

    Lastly I would not be so sure about licensing. No matter what, world is not stopping and companies are usually making plans for a few years ahead. Naturally getting licence is lenghtly process. I fully agree GW deal probably has some rules about not doing any other famous fictional IP (Witcher, GoT before it blew up, Tolkien, Star Wars...) and probably even announcing such plans but the 10 year contract is slowly nearing its end and there are two possibilities. Either both CA and GW are happy and will extend the current deal (Wh1 - success, WH2 - even better...thus CA getting beigger cleative liberty like with Cylostra, Norsca, Repanse..and Wh3 so far on tract to be at least the same success as part two...but what then? War of the Beard, Elves vs Chaos first invasion? Epic yet in many aspect possible even more simplistic games unit wise...or go for AoS or even Warhammer 40K despite me personally disliking these options.. AoS lore is not fully forged and if we are not having naval combat in Wh(s) despite CA making a lot viable models in previous games, can you imagine space travel, battles and basically change battle formula to more tactical squad base one with heavy focus on artillery, vehicles, aircrafts...) ...The second option is the current deal won´t be extended and then surely CA is having some prelimenary talks with different IP holders because nobody is gonna wait just after current deal wears off...If Wh3 is similar success to other two parts, CA can easily put it on table as bargaining chip. Three lore friendly games, massive success, they can deliver, recent experience with big fictional IP. What esle you need from company? But securing rights/license is of course another thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    For my part, I do not say that it will have backlash or that they will be overly paranoid. Simply that their current direction looks like appeasement to the flow of the wind, and that they may consider the given era to be just a tad too sticky in favor of a different historical period or leaning harder into the fantasy elements that are growing in their base.
    And for that matter, ToB wasn't a badly picked theme, it was a badly assembled experience that by and large came off as Boring. As. . Whatever your personal opinions of it, there clearly wasn't much to impress the wider audience.

    Having seen Attila's release myself, it had nothing to do with 'organized boycott',...
    It was really badly worded on my side. Not general boycott, just a group or people. Which is enough to make some noise around internet. You know, 10% unhappy people is usually making 90% of noise ;-) And again, it is not that ToB is badly picked theme, it is just that different setting might produce larger player count. We will see how Troy will fare after all. But in the end, trends, situatio,n everything is changing so each release is in little different enviroment. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 18611096 View Post
    Stiring people produces sales. Doing boring [to many] subjects as TW has been doing historically leads to loss of sales. I have not been interested in a historic TW for some time and have not purchased one since Rome 2, it was awful. I hold out hope for one being done on a time period of my interest.

    I agree TW needs changes. I just dont think that will happen, and why would it? it is profitable as is. I think it does much better fit fantasy such as warhammer. Lord of the Rings would be the ultimate TW game IMO.
    Nope. Simply nope. CA especially under SEGA is no new small aggressive company that prefer conflict and bad advertisment. Because for small company with small customer base even bad advertisement is still advertisement. But CA is in bigger league and then you have to be careful about your reputation. Especially as you audience of custumers is bigger and just a few tweets here or there can easily affect your income and sales. That´s reality of current age.

    Again. You, me, casual guys, hardcore veterans, CA...everybody has some opinion about how should the ideal TW looks like. Tolkien might be the next holy grail but without license. Won´t happen...

    I think PC is really only for rich white people to pat themselves on their backs. I think in real life controversy would drive sales upwards. Atilla has no interest to me nor does troy or 3 kingdoms, I have bought none of them. Crusades? sign me up.
    Considering myself rich white man with custom made PC I would prefer something without controversy. That is for kids. And thus being said I bought and played all TWs so far, love ToB, love Wh and would love both Med 3, Empire 2 or Tolkien. (i just love all my TWs kids for being little different, yeah sentimental way..) You are certainly allowed to have your own opinion and likes and dislikes but having ability to see general trends would help with udnerstanding why is CA picking games as they are..

    I think the best game imaginable would be a third age total war. Is there any rumors that Sega would like the Tolkien franchise?
    For obvious reasons stated above even if such talks were underway companies will not say so publicly till current deal is off and till deal with Tolkien right holders is firmly comfirmed and development started.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  3. #23

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    snip

    Do you have anything in the way of support for your claims?
    Last edited by Frunk; April 15, 2020 at 03:22 AM. Reason: Lengthy quote trimmed.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by 18611096 View Post
    Do you have anything in the way of support for your claims?
    What exactly do you want to explain?
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  5. #25

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    What exactly do you want to explain?
    Nothing. I would ask you instead to support your opinions with data if you have any.

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Sure. After you pinpoint what exactly you want to examine of my lengthly post...If you want specific answer/data then I need specific question and not such general one.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Sure. After you pinpoint what exactly you want to examine of my lengthly post...If you want specific answer/data then I need specific question and not such general one.

    EDIT: now because I got no answer, I picked my own part to examine.

    Let´s say my opinions about games popularity, I will use my old thread, so in case you want to know where those numbers are coming from, feel free to read it through
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-player-counts

    June 2018 data
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Empire: Total War 3,491,439
    Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition 3,350,407
    Napoleon: Total War 2,178,916
    Total War: WARHAMMER 2,085,605
    Total War: ATTILA 1,331,963
    Total War: WARHAMMER II 955,731

    EDIT: ToB was really in the file
    Total War Saga: Thrones of Britannia 224,856
    still no Shogun 2

    2019
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Empire, Napoleon, Rome2, Wh, Wh2, 3K -- 2-5 Millions range
    Attila -- 1-2 Millions range
    ToB -- 200-500 K range

    and for fun current data
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Empire 2-5 mils, dialy peak players 5,2K
    Napoleon 2-5 mils, peak 2,5k
    Shogun 2 still no owners estimation, peak 3,5k
    Rome2 2-5 mils, peak 11K
    Attila 1-2 mils, peak 4K
    Wh1 2-5 mils, peak 2,2K
    ToB 200-500K, peak 1K
    Wh2 2-5 mils, peak 25,6K
    3K 2-5mils, peak 14,2K


    Now sadly SteamDB has no finer grain so we will know just after game cross 5M...which is long way to go although we might have already a few titles approaching 4M mark. A few points here. Older games have longer time to accumulate more owners due to periodical sales...So while Empire,Rome2 are impressive, dynamic of Wh, WH2 and 3K is blowing them out of water. From player count Rome 2 is holding out almost to 3K despite last DLC being for 3K like month ago but still both are blow up by Wh2...which is 1-2 month from next DLC so the number should be all time low....Fair assessment is probably the 3K had the best initial sales while Wh2 has the best sales in long run. This counting DLCs...my bet is on WH2 being the biggest money so far. But of course that is just my thoughts...

    Two more games are standing from crowd. ToB, after 2 more years we are still in very same range - 200-500K despite multiple sales. Bear in mind next range is 0,5-1 million one. So the progress is very small comparing any other TW. I´m not saying it is failure, but other TWs are probably growing way faster in terms of total owners. And then we have the Attila. Which is still not crossing 2 millions. So my personal view, while Attila is still success, it is not such great success. So we can ask what could cause lesser sales...time period not so interesting to people? Too dark theme? Possible launch drama? We will never know..But even from 2018 data we can see that while Empire:Napoleon owners are around 2:1 (very roughly) Rome2:Attila are more like 3:1 again very roughly, similar ratio is between current players peak 2:1 for Emp:Nap and 3:1 for Rom2:Attila. Again it is not exact measurement but we have no better data and it looks like Attila is little lagging behind..

    And that´s it @18611096 .Because I don´t like to be the one to spend energy while others are just asking questions, if you have further inquiries, fistly spend some energy yourself and present us with any data contradicting my opinions . Then I will respond with my effort to dig my more valid data. I don´t mean it in bad way. Just that I can also ask question "and where is your data saying otherwise, show me first"
    Last edited by Daruwind; April 15, 2020 at 07:09 AM.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  8. #28

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Honestly, only the fact that Late Antiquity is much less popular than the rise of Rome is a sufficient explanation for Attila's poorer performance, but other factors certainly also played a role, although, as Daruwind mentioned, we can only speculate about their impact. As for success, we firstly need to define it. Personally, I don't doubt that every Total War game has been profitable, even Throb, as expenses have declined dramatically, thanks to technological progress and the new digital era, which means that net gain is a very easy target.

    However, SEGA has definitely more ambitious goals than that, but we can't possibly know how much their sales match their expectations, unless second Snowden of the gaming industry leaks the confidential information to the public. Moreover, CA's statements about the issue are not reliable, because they will always try to embellish reality. In my opinion, we can safely assume that the performance of Throb, Beasts of War and Eight Princes has been underwhelming, but even for these negatively received packs and titles, we can't reject the possibility of actually covering their expenses, thanks to them being extremely cheap to produce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    I don´t think it is taboo. After all we have slaves in Rome 2/Attila/Wh, we have Taiwan and probably will have Korea in 3K plus all the examples you provided :-) ... But one thing is to construct general medieval game - let´s say Crusader Kings, TW Med 2....where even despite crusade/jihad mechanics it is not just about those.
    Well, the Papal mechanic had a central role in Medieval II, but also one of the Kingdom expansion's campaigns is orientated exclusively towards the Third Crusade, from Constantinople to Baghdad and from Trebizond to Cairo. Two others depicted the Spanish colonisation of Mexico and the Teuton crusade against pagan Lithuania. Generally speaking, the concept of political correctness is totally absent in the gaming industry. Some controversial changes, which can alienate customers like Arch-Warhammer are introduced, because they actually increase the appeal of the product and may lure a new, dynamic demographic, even at the expense of historical accuracy (typical example being the female commanders of Rome II).

    Alternatively, certain options can be removed, if they are judged as detrimental for the game's popularity, but I don't see how this would apply to a Crusades-focused Saga. I doubt Creative Assembly cares much whether some consumers may be more interested in massacring infidels than just playing a strategy game. She definitely didn't in 2007, when memories of terrorist attacks were still fresh and the Iraqi insurgency had not yet declined. My point about Tolkien is that there's no time for CA to sign the deal and then start developing the game for the next tent-pole release. Even if it happens tomorrow, an official Total War title about the Lord of the Rings is not practically feasible before 2025.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; April 15, 2020 at 07:30 AM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    snip
    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    snip

    Thanks for the data but it was not at all what I asked about. I wanted you to support the claim that PC made a crusader Saga/TW not profitable. I never made the claim a crusader TW would be the most profitable game or would sell better then a game you deem "non controversial." I simply asked for some opinions on posters thoughts if they thought we might get one in the future. Having studied various subjects of history I can assure you the PC police wont not be able to create a controversy no matter the historical time period if they so wish to do so. I see you are from Europe so it might be different there but usually in the United States we recognize this is actually political stuff. Of course CA is in England so they very well might sacrifice a historical timer period and great game to the alter of the PC gods correct behaviors. I just wanted to know if you could support this in any way?

    I gave only my opinion that controversy creates interest and did not [like you did] claim that the majority must follow my opinion. I simply said it has been my experience whenever controversy comes up so do sales. So as an example when they removed the confederate flag in SC sale of confederate flags, shirts, memorabilia skyrocketed. Flags and statues were put up in larger numbers on private lands. Likewise when they pass laws to take guns away gun sales skyrocket etc If they outlawed the Koran guess what, sales would skyrocket. It has been my experience that controversy creates sales and interest, it does so with me and that is why I gave my opinion.


    You claimed sales would go down. Not because you would be to horribly sensitive to face a game based on the crusades. But the population at large would be so upset that a game was based on a historical time period that might make someone pretend to be upset. So you, not me, must support your claims. I never said you are wrong, I believe you are wrong of course and so if I am to think as you do and agree with you, I would need more then just your assurance it is so. I would need to see support. Do you have any?
    Last edited by Frunk; April 16, 2020 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Large quotes removed.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    First misunderstanding, for me - PC is PC..personal computer. Not Political Correctness.

    I never made argument that crusader Saga would be not profitable or that sales would go down due to picked timeperiod/theme. But I made three other arugments. 1) Crusades are sub genre to medieval period as whole, so creating full Med3, that will include crusades can be interesting to wider audince plus this will dilude the possible problems around crusades if any have to arise...2) If CA is picking themes for Sagas, I can actually imagine more scenarios skipping crusades for various reasons. Well we have at least two examples in front of eyes - ToB and Troy. According to CA those both settings won and not crusades... 3) My only negative argument was about negative promo campaign stirring up people. Especially as of lately various shocking campaigns and promos seems to fail..Gillette, Star Wars, Star Trek, various comics settings... Pardon me if Am I wrong, my idea about your stirring campagin was in +/- line with "Deus Vult, come and kill your infidels!" I personally would play even historical TW about crusades, all I´m saying it, CA probably will skip setting because some possible s are just unnecessarry. Because puting such slogans on your promo posters is exactly what bigger companies try to avoid.

    And again, all those are my point of views.

    Your example with confedarate flags, Koran, guns is valid but hardly is related to this situation. If there were annual games about crusades and Valve announce ban/prohibition from certain day on..whatever, then of course yes, people might stock up games. Closest idea to this I have is about Steam/Epic store competition when for example Epic overpaid Metro developers to switch for one year exclusively to Epic despite original promotion being for Steam.

    If you still believe i made the claim, feel free to show me exact words!
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  11. #31

    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    First misunderstanding, for me - PC is PC..personal computer. Not Political Correctness.

    I never made argument that crusader Saga would be not profitable or that sales would go down due to picked timeperiod/theme. But I made three other arugments. 1) Crusades are sub genre to medieval period as whole, so creating full Med3, that will include crusades can be interesting to wider audince plus this will dilude the possible problems around crusades if any have to arise...2) If CA is picking themes for Sagas, I can actually imagine more scenarios skipping crusades for various reasons. Well we have at least two examples in front of eyes - ToB and Troy. According to CA those both settings won and not crusades... 3) My only negative argument was about negative promo campaign stirring up people. Especially as of lately various shocking campaigns and promos seems to fail..Gillette, Star Wars, Star Trek, various comics settings... Pardon me if Am I wrong, my idea about your stirring campagin was in +/- line with "Deus Vult, come and kill your infidels!" I personally would play even historical TW about crusades, all I´m saying it, CA probably will skip setting because some possible s are just unnecessarry. Because puting such slogans on your promo posters is exactly what bigger companies try to avoid.

    And again, all those are my point of views.

    Your example with confedarate flags, Koran, guns is valid but hardly is related to this situation. If there were annual games about crusades and Valve announce ban/prohibition from certain day on..whatever, then of course yes, people might stock up games. Closest idea to this I have is about Steam/Epic store competition when for example Epic overpaid Metro developers to switch for one year exclusively to Epic despite original promotion being for Steam.

    If you still believe i made the claim, feel free to show me exact words!

    My apologies it seems i misunderstood.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Quote Originally Posted by 18611096 View Post
    My apologies it seems i misunderstood.
    No problem We are all people here and discussion should be fun and construction for all. Especially as english is not my native language

    Let´s move discussion. Gunpowder era or sword&shield. Honestly with recent CA views on naval combat, I think Empire 2 is unlikely. The naval battles were harder and take longer time, so overall people dislike them in general. And yes, I love them
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    If the meta of the game interested me more, I might have spent more time in the gunpowder entries. Alas. It takes quite a bit to overcome my basic distaste for the gunpowder era, the same sort of novelty that got me interested in shogun, a place I had little interest in originally despite playing the game. But the novelty of recent games far from enchants me towards the results. So I'd have to see a legitimately new direction to care for another of those entries.

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Just one today note: We probably will not ever see AoS as next Fantasy setting....
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-4/

    The models are superb quality, however I can hardly imagine 40K "serious" game but AoS setting is getting more weird every month. Bikes, underwater Elves...
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    Looks like Medieval 3 is work in progresshttps://twitter.com/CAGames/status/1252250737884758016

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    Default Re: FEUDAL TOTAL WAR - THE NEXT HISTORICAL TW GAME

    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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