View Poll Results: Who would you vote for in the 2020 US Presidential elections?

Voters
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  • Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Republicans)

    34 43.59%
  • Joe Biden - Kamala Harris (Democrats)

    37 47.44%
  • Jo Jorgensen - Spike Cohen (Libertarians)

    4 5.13%
  • Howie Hawkins - Angela Walker (Greens)

    0 0%
  • Other (please, specify)

    3 3.85%

Thread: USA elections 2020 - 2021

  1. #3601

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    I had posted a new thread on Trump just before Christmas, but a mod closed it, partly because there was an election thread already and partly because the title was a bit rude in his opinion. I had compared parts of the GOP to a Lovecraftian cult.

    My words were quite prescient, I feel, so I will repoduce them here :


    Let's face it the continuing belief that Trump had somehow won has been disproven beyond ridicule. Acceptance of blatant and increasingly bizzare lies coupled with unconditional support are classic symptoms of cult-like behaviour. To quote Bernie Sanders : “The GOP has ceased to be a political party. It is now a cult.”

    His son Eric places him second only before Jesus ( so above Moses, Abraham and all the Apostles)., yet Conservative Christians seem to have forsaken Jesus for Trump. This despite his complete indiference to the Covid death toll. Perhaps it's a Lovecraftian cult, one can't expect anything from the Orange-faced god except madness. That said those who lie, cheat, steal or kill and call out his name may be pardoned.


    Trump’s recent tweets and his attempts to overturn the results are both been complete failures , but he still has millions of followers who believe in that rubbish, including those harassinging election officials in Michigan and Georgia.

    So the cult remains and I don't think American society will return to business as usual any time soon. I'm convinced that a significant number are a terrorist risk. Once covid is contained, those who have any decency left will have to live with the horror of supporting a cult that made the Jonestown massacre look insignificant in comparison. What is really scary is that there are people ready to die for this draft_dodging incompetent racist fool.

    Can the GOP be saved? Can America be saved?

    https://johnpavlovitz.com/2019/02/04...-joins-a-cult/



    @Legio_Italica have you never given thought that a potential uprising or terrorist act would in itself require significantly more resources to put down, beyond those required for a mere protest march? It's not as if there wasn't sufficient evidence something would happen, how and why. An islamist group plotting this way would rightfully recieve no mercy.
    Last edited by mongrel; January 10, 2021 at 07:50 PM.
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  2. #3602

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    So the cult remains and I don't think American society will return to business as usual any time soon. I'm convinced that a significant number are a terrorist risk.
    Our flag and and Capitol.

    Colin Kaepernick's career was ruined because they loved the flag.

    But Wednesday, the Confederate Flag was in the Capitol. Another rioter took down the American flag to replace it with the Trump Campaign flag.

    And.... nothing.

    It wasn't the American flag they loved. It was white supremacy.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  3. #3603

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Our flag and and Capitol.

    Colin Kaepernick's career was ruined because they loved the flag.

    But Wednesday, the Confederate Flag was in the Capitol. Another rioter took down the American flag to replace it with the Trump Campaign flag.

    And.... nothing.

    It wasn't the American flag they loved. It was white supremacy.
    That was quite telling, the equivalent of raising a red or ISIS flag and equally illegitimate.


    Found some interesting tweets by one Terry Bouton. It would appear that not only was the police staffing and resource ludicrously low compared with BLM marches, it was lower than any march whatsoever, or even harmless non-political public events. Looking very dodgy. Inside job?


    'A lot has been made of the contrast to the overwhelming police presence at Black Lives Matters protests in the fall, and this is certainly true. But there was also A LOT more federal law enforcement presence at every single previous protest we have attended in DC.

    Most of these protests involved tens of thousands of mostly white, middle-aged people (meaning race wasn’t the only reason for the disparate police presence). Even the March for Science had far more police for a non-partisan event featuring “Bill Nye the Science Guy.”

    By contrast, there was a tiny federal police presence at “Stop the Steal” despite weeks of promises of violence spread on social media by well-known far-right radicals, many of whom had long histories of inciting violence.

    There were also no clear crowd rules imposed for Stop the Steal like there were for all the other protests we have attended. All of the “liberal” protests of the last four years we attended had a long list of things you could not bring that were enforced at the Capitol.

    At these protests, there were no poles or sticks, no backpacks, no weapons or body armor, etc. There were sometimes security check points to go through to get onto the mall or Capitol grounds.

    None of these standard rules applied to Stop the Steal. There were poles and flags and backpacks and body armor EVERYWHERE. We didn’t see any guns or knives. But there were certainly people brandishing flag poles as if they were weapons.'

    https://twitter.com/TerryBoutonHist/...65375449268226
    Last edited by mongrel; January 10, 2021 at 11:10 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  4. #3604
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    But Wednesday, the Confederate Flag was in the Capitol. Another rioter took down the American flag to replace it with the Trump Campaign flag.
    AP has complied a fairly good review of the 120 people who face federal charges (so far).

    https://apnews.com/article/election-...a68acd6b55cace

    If you wanted a description of "basket of deplorables" then this list is it. It is a list of people that most Republicans would agree are deplorable. Unless they're of the Machiavellian variety who are looking to take Trump's base and sideline him without a confrontation (I'm looking at you Ted)

    The list put's to bed the myth that Antifa were secretly agitating in the crowd - there is no evidence of that. Instead, most of those charged so far left pretty open records of their politics on their social media - many bragging and making open death treats before and after heading to Washington. In some cases, all I can think is that they expected to succeed, or didn't expect to live out the day - so brazen and blatant were the threats to Pelosi and Pence during the day. That said, there does seem to be a split between those who were actually intent on a confrontation (active white supremacists, American nationalists etc) and those who went along for the fun and got swept along (Qanon nutjobs and angry conservative Karens)
    Last edited by antaeus; January 11, 2021 at 12:15 AM. Reason: I spelled it bad
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  5. #3605
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    That said, there does seem to be a split between those who were actually intent on a confrontation (active white supremacists, American nationalists etc) and those who went along for the fun and got swept along (Qanon nutjobs and angry conservative Karens)
    I don't think it is going to matter for the ones who entered the building. Nor should it. No one forced them to follow the crowd, and the true agitators seeing the hundreds with them probably emboldened them. And even still, they did achieve their original goal (if only temporarily) of disrupting a constitutional and legal process. That goal alone is what set these people apart from the protests over the summer.

    It was a group effort. The group deserves the punishment. And it is clear that if nothing happens to these people, it will happen again, and far worse.

    Everyone who stayed outside? Leave them alone, so long as they didn't take part in the hostilities against the officers. If they were at the back of the pack let them go home in peace. The example set by the punishments handed out to the people who entered the building should be enough...if it actually happens.

    Props to officer Goodman for leading the fascists away from the Senate chamber. His quick thinking likely saved lives. He should be commended, and while it may seem a bit obvious I think he above all else should be given the Congressional Gold Medal. That medal doesn't get awarded often, and it will set it apart from the stain of the Medal of Freedom that has been tainted by the Trump administration.
    Things I trust more than American conservatives:

    Drinks from Bill Cosby, Flint Michigan tap water, Plane rides from Al Qaeda, Anything on the menu at Chipotle, Medical procedures from Mengele

  6. #3606

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by makawa View Post
    lol man. lol. Go to twitter and try to make a hashtag associated with any number. The guy who was spreading that nonsense yesterday made the biggest ridicule you can imagine. But I suppose it is better to read these morons than the Marxist mass media, right?
    Right. It is also right not to comment on a fact that worlds biggest tech companies ganging up together and banning alternative social media app for a reason they can ban themselves, but to comment on 1984 hashtag. (you was right there). I love how people in the most democratic country in the world don't even pretend to care that POTUS is banned for not actual reason but because of possible outcomes of not banning him. Still funny?

  7. #3607
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    The POTUS incided a putsch in the Country he has sworn to protect and the only thing that matters to you is that he got his toys taken away?

  8. #3608
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Vardano View Post
    Right. It is also right not to comment on a fact that worlds biggest tech companies ganging up together and banning alternative social media app for a reason they can ban themselves, but to comment on 1984 hashtag. (you was right there). I love how people in the most democratic country in the world don't even pretend to care that POTUS is banned for not actual reason but because of possible outcomes of not banning him. Still funny?
    Big tech is your friend. It knows what and who you should and shouldn't hear, wouldn't want you to accidently engage in wrongthink now would we?

  9. #3609
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Vardano View Post
    Right. It is also right not to comment on a fact that worlds biggest tech companies ganging up together and banning alternative social media app for a reason they can ban themselves, but to comment on 1984 hashtag. (you was right there). I love how people in the most democratic country in the world don't even pretend to care that POTUS is banned for not actual reason but because of possible outcomes of not banning him. Still funny?
    The potus is banned for inciting violence. It wasn't fun, it was satisfying.

  10. #3610
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by makawa View Post
    The potus is banned for inciting violence.
    Can you provide the relevant tweet?

  11. #3611
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    It was a group effort. The group deserves the punishment. And it is clear that if nothing happens to these people, it will happen again, and far worse.
    Certainly. Those who got carried away should face charges, but there is enough social media evidence to scale the charges appropriately. And if anything, the Karens of the group were probably being used for their body mass and the distraction they provided while the organised groups at the core of the protest enacted what seems like a fairly coordinated politician hunt. It will be important to separate them out when it comes to trying and sentencing. Process and fair and transparent rule of law should be applied. In some cases that will mean people who were involved will not face serious consequences, but where appropriate the charges for that sinister core of organised militants should probably lean towards the treason end of the scale.

    As the dust continues to settle, it does seem like there was more going on that wasn't initially apparent.
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  12. #3612
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Merkel: Trump’s Twitter eviction ‘problematic’

    ...the freedom of opinion is a fundamental right of “elementary significance.”

    “This fundamental right can be intervened in, but according to the law and within the framework defined by legislators — not according to a decision by the management of social media platforms
    Im pleasantly surprised.

  13. #3613

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Wisecracks like “Protesters storm parliament in this former British colony” flew thick and fast worldwide, highlighting the irony of a putsch in a country that sees itself as the global gatekeeper of democratic propriety. It didn’t help that the legislative stronghold of what is still the world’s only superpower fell to a crowd of rioters, many animated by kooky conspiracy theories of satanic deep states run by blood-drinking pedophiles.

    The storming of the Capitol occasions introspection on many things—such as the seemingly irreversible distrust of the liberal democratic project—but institutional capture is not one of them. From the slow but meticulous counting of votes to the judiciary’s thwarting of the legal maneuvers challenging the election result, the built-in checks and balances of America’s governing institutions have proven to be resilient enough to withstand an aberration like Trump.

    Comparisons between Trump and other populist demagogues were not misplaced, but imputing these similarities to the health of American democracy was always wide of the mark. From the perspective of failing democracies the world over, the U.S. is still the shining city on the hill, even if the glow may have dimmed in the Trump years. Jokes apart, it is the stuff of envy, not derision. https://time.com/5928454/world-react...-us-democracy/
    Quite right. It’s always predictably awful when the press joins US adversaries in relishing allegations that the US is some kind of banana republic that should be stripped of its global role. I recall an article alleging American exceptionalism is a myth because only the Constitution is preventing the US from a slide into authoritarianism, not knowing or not caring that a cornerstone of American exceptionalism is the strength and resilience of our Constitution, which has always formed the only real defense against the Trumps of history. The election is over, and if an angry mob couldn’t bring down the government, neither can sarcastic jabs from supercilious European onlookers, our own press or the tinpot leaders of the third world.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #3614
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Quite right. It’s always predictably awful when the press joins US adversaries in relishing allegations that the US is some kind of banana republic that should be stripped of its global role. I recall an article alleging American exceptionalism is a myth because only the Constitution is preventing the US from a slide into authoritarianism, not knowing or not caring that a cornerstone of American exceptionalism is the strength and resilience of our Constitution, which has always formed the only real defense against the Trumps of history. The election is over, and if an angry mob couldn’t bring down the government, neither can sarcastic jabs from supercilious European onlookers, our own press or the tinpot leaders of the third world.
    I agree entirely. The usual suspects of course. But I also understand why some both within the US and outside might want to use this episode as a hand delivered propaganda windfall. Particularly others with inferiority complexes in part based on experiencing the brunt of lectures and actions from that shining city on the hill for many years. The idea that the US is actually just like everybody else, and in no way more or less special than any other long lasting democracy isn't particularly controversial, and probably should be acknowledged simply to ensure that the system is maintained and improved upon - as it was designed to. The US isn't free from a history of political violence - quite the opposite. It became that shining city on a hill through constant struggle.

    Of course this putsch was never going to succeed - You don't take over a nation of 330 million with a handful of organised militants leading a rabble of a few hundred politicised Karens - but when coupled with an overhaul of the supreme court, a deliberate attempt to undermine the belief in democratic process and a sustained effort to create an off balanced public sector, it does illustrate that with enough time, and enough energy, even the strongest constitutional arrangements can in fact be prone to the same kind of problems that plague less embedded democratic societies. If anything it is a warning. And to sweep it under the carpet by patting the backs of the founding fathers and thanking them for their good work is to encourage the very kind of negligence that has landed us here. Certainly, the US constitution might be the envy of some, but there are plenty of other long lasting democracies who haven't ever experienced the Trump years with their internal politics who might justifiably be feeling smug about their own systems about now.
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  15. #3615
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    The people that stormed the Capitol can look forward to better days if history is any indication.



    Susan Rosenberg was convicted and sentenced to 58 years for the bombing of the US Capitol Building. 16 years later Bill Clinton commuted her sentence. She is now a vice chair of Thousands Currents the money machine funding BLM groups.

    If this is the pattern democrats want to uphold Buffalo horn guy should be a Congressman by the end of the decade.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; January 11, 2021 at 09:43 AM.
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  16. #3616
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/BuitenhofTe...4218227959596/

    Here's Nick Clegg, head of global affairs of Facebook, actually saying that social media platforms are too powerful, that they cannot be expected to protect democracy and that it's up to governments to make rules.
    Those rules cannot be that they are not responsible for what happens on their platforms at all, but they can also not be held fully accountable. I'm afraid the in between is going to be an ever expanding maze of rules.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  17. #3617

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I agree entirely. The usual suspects of course. But I also understand why some both within the US and outside might want to use this episode as a hand delivered propaganda windfall. Particularly others with inferiority complexes in part based on experiencing the brunt of lectures and actions from that shining city on the hill for many years. The idea that the US is actually just like everybody else, and in no way more or less special than any other long lasting democracy isn't particularly controversial, and probably should be acknowledged simply to ensure that the system is maintained and improved upon - as it was designed to. The US isn't free from a history of political violence - quite the opposite. It became that shining city on a hill through constant struggle.

    Of course this putsch was never going to succeed - You don't take over a nation of 330 million with a handful of organised militants leading a rabble of a few hundred politicised Karens - but when coupled with an overhaul of the supreme court, a deliberate attempt to undermine the belief in democratic process and a sustained effort to create an off balanced public sector, it does illustrate that with enough time, and enough energy, even the strongest constitutional arrangements can in fact be prone to the same kind of problems that plague less embedded democratic societies. If anything it is a warning. And to sweep it under the carpet by patting the backs of the founding fathers and thanking them for their good work is to encourage the very kind of negligence that has landed us here. Certainly, the US constitution might be the envy of some, but there are plenty of other long lasting democracies who haven't ever experienced the Trump years with their internal politics who might justifiably be feeling smug about their own systems about now.
    There’s no question the mob’s breach of the Capitol was a national embarrassment directly facilitated by Trump and the GOP. However, as a reflection of US institutions, the panic mongering is less of a warning and more of a political opportunity for Democrats to consolidate power riding high on vindication. The GOP is going to have to lay low for a while and take their well earned beating, which is probably the most significant dynamic to come out of this. Of course someplace like New Zealand or Canada can gloat about their comparatively uneventful institutional history, but that was always the case. The only way a concerted effort to undo centuries of democratic norms could take hold in the US is by changing the Constitution to create a fundamental imbalance, which isn’t likely to happen. Executive actions can be undone the same way they are done. If Congress can pull off impeachment somehow in the next week or so, it would be a welcome precedent that would also ensure Trump can’t run for office again afaik. Other than that, I don’t think there’s any procedural remedy here that would be especially impactful or necessary. The Founders were under no illusions about what they built, as Ben Franklin said:

    In these Sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its Faults, if they are such; because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years, and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

    I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution: For when you assemble a Number of Men to have the Advantage of their joint Wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those Men all their Prejudices, their Passions, their Errors of Opinion, their local Interests, and their selfish Views. From such an Assembly can a perfect Production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this System approaching so near to Perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our Enemies, who are waiting with Confidence to hear that our Councils are confounded, like those of the Builders of Babel, and that our States are on the Point of Separation, only to meet hereafter for the Purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure that it is not the best.

    https://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/pop_finalspeech.html
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  18. #3618

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post

    It was a group effort. The group deserves the punishment. And it is clear that if nothing happens to these people, it will happen again, and far worse.

    Everyone who stayed outside? Leave them alone, so long as they didn't take part in the hostilities against the officers. If they were at the back of the pack let them go home in peace. The example set by the punishments handed out to the people who entered the building should be enough...if it actually happens.
    I disagree, there needs to be a crackdown on everyone who was there. These people are in a Death Cult. It’s too late for them. When in a death cult all reasoning, logic and understanding are out the window. For these people, Trump should simply have anyone who doesn't do what he says shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    The POTUS incided a putsch in the Country he has sworn to protect and the only thing that matters to you is that he got his toys taken away?
    Of course he's mad. Rules are only meant for the little people. That's basic Republicanism.
    Last edited by Aexodus; January 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM. Reason: insulting others

  19. #3619
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    I disagree, there needs to be a crackdown on everyone who was there. These people are in a Death Cult. It’s too late for them. When in a death cult all reasoning, logic and understanding are out the window. For these people, Trump should simply have anyone who doesn't do what he says shot.
    It's funny how quickly the "Trump is a tyrant!" crowd goes full authoritarian.

  20. #3620

    Default Re: USA elections 2020 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It's funny how quickly the "Trump is a tyrant!" crowd goes full authoritarian.
    Not really. Just pretend that Twitter is a Christian bakery and it all starts to make sense. A private business is entitled to refuse service to anyone they like. At least that's what our Conservative friends were telling us during this case. Now all of a sudden conservatives are demanding that the state legislate who a company may do business with.

    Oh the irony...

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