View Poll Results: Who would you vote for in the 2020 US Presidential elections?

Voters
78. You may not vote on this poll
  • Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Republicans)

    34 43.59%
  • Joe Biden - Kamala Harris (Democrats)

    37 47.44%
  • Jo Jorgensen - Spike Cohen (Libertarians)

    4 5.13%
  • Howie Hawkins - Angela Walker (Greens)

    0 0%
  • Other (please, specify)

    3 3.85%

Thread: USA elections 2020 - 2021

  1. #2681
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Can anyone explain why Trump cultists cling on in the hope that his lies may bear fruit?
    Trump uses racism,xenophobia and isolationism to get his base excited. Meanwhile, the orange idiot exports his fiery populism and authoritarian style to Europe.
    A few days ago I watched an episode of the old and funny but depressing "All in the Family" sitcom,often regarded in the US as one of the greatest television series in history. And then it occurred to me that despite presenting the 1970's race/culture wars of the US, "All in the Family" is still quite actual in the contemporary context. What do I mean by that? certainly not all of them, but a significant segment of Trump voters are modern, sophisticated reincarnations of Archie,the racist with a "gold heart".
    Another inconvenient truth. The history of the Christian church in America is a history of racial intolerance: American Christianity's White-Supremacy Problem | The New Yorker.
    Luther King wrote, and the assertion remains true today,
    Christian church has been an accomplice in structuring racism into the architecture of American society
    There you go.
    -----
    The electoral college is an antidemocratic relic, Biden is an American/world civil hero - and progressives are the future.
    Progressive Victories Signal Staying Power for the Movement - NYTimes
    Progressives Score Election Wins in U.S. Cities - Bloomberg
    The“blue wave” didn’t materialize at the national level. But in America’s cities, younger Democratic leaders and progressive policy ideas scored several big wins.
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 23, 2020 at 11:49 AM.
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  2. #2682
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Trump is a pathalogical liar and an obvious narcissist. It is boggling to me how the base is still so brainwashed into this cultism despite the obvious lies he cracks.

    Everyday I go on to thedonald.win and the delusions are as if they are from North Korea.

    They believe that Trump is such a magnificent, genius 123123d chess human being that there is no way he can lose and that he must have a "grand plan".
    All the factors of religion fanaticism is there. It is beyond logic and all about a belief.
    I am simply hoping that the rational Republican voters are at least seeing the craziness of the Trump cult for future decisions.
    I do not mind a Republican being elected, but a figure like Trump is a threat to the whole world. They should sort out the importance of institutions and values above fanaticism and cultism.

    https://thedonald.win/p/11QRtaZt1M/y...ub:ing-job-/c/
    Wow! Trump is living in your head rent free. I've never been to that site. I'm guessing it's there for folks like you; maybe just to play with your heads. Who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Trump uses racism,xenophobia and isolationism to get his base excited. Meanwhile, the orange idiot exports his fiery populism and authoritarian style to Europe.
    A few days ago I watched an episode of the old and funny but depressing "All in the Family" sitcom,often regarded in the US as one of the greatest television series in history. And then it occurred to me that despite presenting the 1970's race/culture wars of the US, "All in the Family" is still quite actual in the contemporary context. What do I mean by that? certainly not all of them, but a significant segment of Trump voters are modern, sophisticated reincarnations of Archie,the racist with a "gold heart".
    Another inconvenient truth. The history of the Christian church in America is a history of racial intolerance: American Christianity's White-Supremacy Problem | The New Yorker.
    Luther King wrote, and the assertion remains true today,
    Christian church has been an accomplice in structuring racism into the architecture of American society
    There you go.
    -----
    The electoral college is an antidemocratic relic, Biden is an American/world civil hero - and progressives are the future.
    Progressive Victories Signal Staying Power for the Movement - NYTimes
    Progressives Score Election Wins in U.S. Cities - Bloomberg
    We live in a Republic, not a Democracy; thus the electoral college. In case you didn't learn it in school, democracies don't often end well.

    As for Biden being a world hero, that's just laughable. Tell that to the people in Taiwan next year. Biden is the same guy he's been for the last 50 years; a corrupt, hot tempered mobster.

    For those that have been screaming "Orange man bad" for the last four years, just wait until Biden and Harris get in; providing Trump doesn't pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat and somehow win.

  3. #2683
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    We live in a Republic, not a Democracy; thus the electoral college
    If I am not mistaken the electoral college is unique to the US; the government form of republic however is not; making the statement flawed. Given that it's supposedly a constitutional republic which can also be called a representative democracy makes the statement a tad back to front on top of flawed.
    I am not an expert in fine nuances of government, feel free to correct me, preferably with something that I can follow up on.

    PS. They did have a electoral college (Kurfürsten) during the time of the Holy Roman Empire, that certainly wasn't a republic.
    Last edited by Gigantus; November 23, 2020 at 01:05 PM.










  4. #2684
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Can anyone explain why Trump cultists cling on in the hope that his lies may bear fruit? He 's a coward. He dodged the Vietnam War and now he's surrendered uncondiitionally to the Coronavirus , leaving over a quarter of a million dead and rising.
    The cultists have fully convinced themselves that he's playing 4D chess with a grand master plan. These past few weeks, even as the Trump campaign's nonsensical lawsuits get thrown out, they've hyped themselves up over some big reveal that Donnie has in store. All in all, the "you lost, get over it" crowd appears to be very salty that the nation roundly rejected their messiah.
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  5. #2685
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    If I am not mistaken the electoral college is unique to the US; the government form of republic however is not; making the statement flawed. Given that it's supposedly a constitutional republic which can also be called a representative democracy makes the statement a tad back to front on top of flawed.
    I am not an expert in fine nuances of government, feel free to correct me, preferably with something that I can follow up on.

    PS. They did have a electoral college (Kurfürsten) during the time of the Holy Roman Empire, that certainly wasn't a republic.
    So a republic is defined by doing its business (Res) more or less in, and with the public (publica). In an antique sense any state can be described as a Republic, (even monarchies) so long as it has a constitution.

    More specifically (and usually) they are participatory states but this can include elective monarchies so the HRE probably qualifies as a form of republic under both these definitions). More famously the Polish Commonwealth with its weird Sejm, easily vetoed rent-a-kings etc was a royal republic at times.

    In the 19th century "republic" (full of natural justice but also aggression) and "hereditary monarchy" (corrupt and despotic) were considered antonyms, reflecting eras of Roman history (monarchy, republic, monarchy) but up close the eras are a little less clear: Augustus "saved the Republic", Republics spawned Emperors (almost organically it seems) and monarchies could be rather constitutional (aka "Rule Britannia"). In this case the definition of Republic as "the rule of law" is opposed to personal or arbitrary rule (despotism etc).

    Electoral colleges were in a way a feature of the Roman system: various assemblies and colleges did double duty in that role. The Pontifex and his colleagues chose the Rex Sacrorum (so their system retained a "King"), the senate choosing a Dictator, the Consuls by one of the assemblies (I think the military one?) etc etc.

    IIRC the Venetians used an elaborate system of designated electoral colleges, supposedly to guard against corruption and ensure broad responsibility. The exact process was bafflingly complex, and the ill defined power of the Doge means this famous republic barely qualifies as "open government". The Dutch Republic was a constant tension between the de facto Orange monarchy (amounting to a Polish style rent-a-king arrangement, more or less) and the theoretic Republican elected governments (the electorates including delegates of subordinate elected bodies).

    Funnily enough the ancient Venetian system expired died its inglorious death (chip traded to the Hapsburgs by Consul Napoleon) only a few decades after the US was founded. Likewise the old Union of the Netherlands (self destructed in favour of the new model French System) and the HRE (euthanised by the Kaiser und Koenig) died their deaths shortly afterwards.

    To sum up, the matter is a bit murky but Electoral Colleges are a common feature of sexy famous Republics like Rome and Venice which were surely at the front of the minds of the Founders of the US. They must also have been thinking of the Netherlands given the strong recent example as well as direct ties but it never seems to come up. Likewise there are Dutch fingerprints all over the UK constitution which no one ever seems to talk about. In Westminster systems, the prime Minister is a quasi replacement monarch, to whom the puppet Monarch must listen, and who de facto has sidelined the real head of parliament, the Speaker.

    On reflection the President as Stadtholder is a curiously apposite metaphor, to my admittedly very poor knowledge of the subject.

    Otherwise Electoral colleges are not a necessary or sufficient element of a republic. Election can be direct (as at Athens), as can execution. However they are a common feature of republics both as "representative" (not despotic) and anti-monarchic.
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  6. #2686

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    For the same reason the woke cultists ranted and raged and took to the streets 4 years ago, political immaturity.
    Can't imagine whining about the "far-left" when an alt-right POTUS is delaying a peaceful transition of power. Good thing I don't have to, this is the reality we live in.

  7. #2687
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Whelp, looks like Trump's case is finished in Michigan, and the GSA has finally decided to start the paperwork on the transition process.

    Guys I'm scared...It looks like Trump is losing

    How can that be though? He only lost the popular vote, the electoral vote, and 34 of the 35 court cases he's using to try to overturn the election.

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  8. #2688
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    If I am not mistaken the electoral college is unique to the US; the government form of republic however is not; making the statement flawed. Given that it's supposedly a constitutional republic which can also be called a representative democracy makes the statement a tad back to front on top of flawed.
    I am not an expert in fine nuances of government, feel free to correct me, preferably with something that I can follow up on.

    PS. They did have a electoral college (Kurfürsten) during the time of the Holy Roman Empire, that certainly wasn't a republic.
    You can look at Cyclpos post below for a pretty good explanation, although I could add to it.

    The main reason I mentioned it the way I did was because the Dems have been crying about eliminating it and replacing it with direct elections, which would mean the only people who had a say in who our president was is the people in a few cities on the coasts. The concerns of citizens in the other part of the country would not matter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Can't imagine whining about the "far-left" when an alt-right POTUS is delaying a peaceful transition of power. Good thing I don't have to, this is the reality we live in.
    You're seriously contending that what Obama and crew did to Trump a smooth transition? There is plenty of time for a smooth transition to take place. It doesn't even need to start before Jan. 1 or later... and that's with Biden taking all the naps he needs.

    Biden without his nap:

    https://notthebee.com/article/not-on...y-in-this-clip

    By the time he is fully awake it will all be over with. You really think we're better off with this guy having the keys to the nuclear suitcase?
    Last edited by B. W.; November 23, 2020 at 06:20 PM.

  9. #2689

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    While conceding nothing, President Trump this evening has consented to begin the process of transition:

    The president said he was recommending a key federal agency "do what needs to be done", even as he vowed to continue contesting the result.
    The General Services Administration (GSA) said it was acknowledging Mr Biden as the "apparent winner".
    Earlier, Mr Biden's victory in the US state of Michigan was officially certified, in a major blow to Mr Trump.
    Mr Trump tweeted as the GSA, which is tasked with formally beginning presidential transitions, informed the Biden camp that it would start the process.
    Administrator Emily Murphy said she was making $6.3m (£4.7m) in funds available to the president-elect.
    While pledging to keep up the "good fight", the president said: "Nevertheless, in the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55052640

    "You know… the thing" - President Joseph R. Biden, Jr., vaguely alluding to the Declaration of Independence


  10. #2690
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    So a republic is defined by doing its business (Res) more or less in, and with the public (publica). In an antique sense any state can be described as a Republic, (even monarchies) so long as it has a constitution../...
    Much obliged - that was an enlightening discourse.










  11. #2691
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    By the time he is fully awake it will all be over with. You really think we're better off with this guy having the keys to the nuclear suitcase?
    Hrm.

    If we're going to give this question the dues it deserves... Actually, I'm happier with a sleepy guy who is famous for not doing much of anything having the keys to the nuclear suitcase than I am a decisive zero sum thinker who picks fights in order to shake up established norms.

    Which is more likely to nuke some random country at 4 am after they called him a name on twitter?



    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Can anyone explain why Trump cultists cling on in the hope that his lies may bear fruit? He 's a coward. He dodged the Vietnam War and now he's surrendered uncondiitionally to the Coronavirus , leaving over a quarter of a million dead and rising.
    I know a couple of people have had a go at this question already, but I'm not sure they've hit the nail on the head.

    Trump has tapped into a long term trend in the GOP that other's haven't quite had either the stomach, or the charisma to do.

    The GOP has always been a coalition of voting blocks: Conservative Christians, anti-socialist immigrants, traditional economic liberals, etc etc. Different blocks hold sway in the coalition at different times. Through the 80s and into the early 00s, it was classic small government liberals who held sway in the coalition. But in a trend that started after Kennedy and has strengthened over the decades, the GOP has also come to represent disaffected outer surburban and rural white voters. In particular, over the last generation, the primary voting block of the GOP has shifted from small-government classic liberal voters towards this new base of disaffected suburban/rural voters.

    This is a fundamental shift in the GOP. It essentially represents the losers of 1980s trickle down policy taking over the party that led that policy from the inside. In the early 00s, we saw this new demographic show it's strength and activism through the Tea Party. But the GOP at the time was still led by Reagan era thinkers in Bush and co. But we've now seen that shift refelcted at the top - traditional liberal economic thinkers in the party have had to change their public positions to align with these new voters, or they've lost out. The party has increasingly become an activist party of lower middle class socially conservative suburban and rural people who were left behind by globalisation and increasingly progressive inner cities. These voters are angry with the traditional GOP, but have never considered themselves progressive.

    Trump's "drain the swamp" message was directed as much at the GOP as it was Washington insiders and Democrats. By ignoring traditional GOP policy and personnel, Trump has shaped this new post-Reagan demographic into a force that, when combined with other traditional GOP voter blocks like conservative Christians and anti-socialist minorities, this makes a powerful base for whom "not doing what the establishment wants", is the key message - "the establishment sent my job to China and my son to Iraq, so I don't care what you and your establishment tell me to do. You lost my trust twenty years ago"

    So while you and I might see Trump failing on Covid, the election transition, or whatever, this disaffected voter block see him as not caving in to establishment thinking that has cost them over the years, be it 100 old-GOP officals or former GOP leaders or whoever. Old GOP leaders may as well be Democrats, or anyone else who thinks they know what's right while selling jobs overseas and sending kids off to die in wars.
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  12. #2692
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by skh1 View Post
    While conceding nothing, President Trump this evening has consented to begin the process of transition:
    Thanks god.

    This whole mirror fencing became so boring as the last seasons of "How i met your mother" after the thirthieth judicial defeat.

    Time to move on.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  13. #2693

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Still remains to see if he will leave the office peacefully or not.

  14. #2694
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Still remains to see if he will leave the office peacefully or not.

    Have you ever had to pull a screaming child from a Chuck E Cheese or similar place?

    If so, you know exactly how this is going to go.
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  15. #2695
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Electoral Colleges are a common feature of sexy famous Republics like Rome and Venice
    My dear friend,the Venetian protocol strikes the modern mind as ridiculous. Regarding Rome, read or re-read Mary Beard, English scholar of Ancient Roman civilisation, Watching democracy | Blog post by Mary Beard - The TLS
    She asks herself,
    Or is it the DEATH of democracy that has become the ritualized spectacle?
    ----
    The American electoral college is a by product of the US slavery. The formula relied at that time on the 3/5 compromise,Three-Fifths Compromise - Digital History

    Of all the compromises on which the Constitution rested, perhaps the most controversial was the Three-Fifths Compromise, an agreement to count three-fifths of a state's slaves in apportioning Representatives, Presidential electors, and direct taxes.
    Ocasio-Cortez has called it a "shadow of slavery's power on America" and a NYT editorial called it " A living symbol of America's original sin", Opinion | Time to End the Electoral College - The New York ...

    In fact, two years ago, former Maine Gov. Paul LePage said that without the Electoral College,white people will have less say: "Actually, what would happen if they do what they say they’re going to, white people will not have anything to say" Ex-Maine GOP gov:Paul LePage Says Electoral College Protects White People

    Well,that's exactly what other Republicans have been dying to say - but they are afraid to say.
    -----------
    ----------
    The blame game, BernieSanders: Don't blame so-called far-left policies for ...

    truth be told, the election results in the House and Senate were disappointing. Despite Joe Biden winning the popular vote by more than 5 million votes, the Democrats lost seats in the House and, so far, have only picked up one seat in the Senate.
    Now,with the blame game erupting, corporate Democrats are attacking so-called far-left policies like Medicare for All and the Green NewDeal for election defeats in the House and the Senate. They are dead wrong.
    Here are the facts:

    ►112co-sponsors of Medicare for All were on the ballot in November. All112 of them won their races.

    ►98 co-sponsors of the Green New Deal were on the ballot in November. Only one of them have lost an election.

    It turns out that supporting universal health care during a pandemic and enacting major investments in renewable energy as we face the existential threat to our planet from climate change is not just good public policy. It also is good politics. According to an exit poll from Fox News, no bastion of socialism, 72% of voters favored the change “to a government-run health care plan”and70% of voters supported“increasing government spending on green and renewable energy.”

    The lesson is not to abandon popular policies like Medicare for All, aGreen New Deal, living wage jobs, criminal justice reform and universal child care, but to enact an agenda that speaks to the economic desperation being felt by the working class — Black,white, Latino, Asian American and Native American. People are hurting, and they are crying out for help. We must respond.
    Allover America, voters approved progressive policies to improve the lives of millions of people:

    ►Florida voters passed an initiative toraise the minimum wage to $15 an hour.
    ►Colorado voted to provide12 weeks of paid family leave.
    ►Arizona voted to increase taxes on those making over $250,000 to increase funding for public education.
    ►Voters in Arizona, Montana, New Jersey and South Dakota voted to move away from the “war on drugs” and approved legalizing marijuana.
    The American people are sick and tired of seeing billionaires and Wall Street become much richer, while veterans sleep out on the streets,our infrastructure crumbles and young people leave school deeply indebt.
    Of course he is right.






    Last edited by Ludicus; November 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  16. #2696
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    So probably No. 45's Putsch trial failed. Relief? Yes, somewhat.
    Reason for cheering? No, not really. With half of Republican voters believe firmly (along a recent poll), their idol has won the election rightfully, nope!
    This quasi cult represents probably millions of Americans. With many of them being very right-radical and ready for violence.
    Last edited by DaVinci; November 24, 2020 at 12:29 PM.
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    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
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    #End, A diary of the Third World War (A.-A. Guha, 1983) - now, it started on 24th February 2022.

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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    This quasi cult represents probably millions of Americans. With many of them being very right-radical and ready for violence.
    Trumpism is a cancer that has metastasized throughout America, unfortunately. It's even been shipped overseas, with the far-right in Germany idolizing him.

    I have been having an interesting time informing friends and family that they share an ideology and a fanbase with the far-right in Germany. They are struggling, or refusing, to accept what that makes them.

    Sadly it looks like I will have to keep them removed from my life until they come to their senses, whenever that may be.
    Things I trust more than American conservatives:

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  18. #2698
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Trump uses racism,xenophobia and isolationism to get his base excited. Meanwhile, the orange idiot exports his fiery populism and authoritarian style to Europe.
    He exports nothing other than the revelation that US is a competitor not a friend, nor should it be the leader of the world.

    Other the other hand, his stance on illegal immigrants is much needed, and highly educated non-white labors and students who feel butthurt by his racism are welcome to move and help improve European society.

  19. #2699

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    The state political parties pick the electors who pick the president. The electors are chosen to be loyal to the popular vote in each state. The US is a union of states, hence the name. The idea of a national popular vote is simply not a reflection of how the federal system was designed, nor should it ever come to pass. The people have their House and that’s that. Of course Democrats prefer a national popular vote for the same reason they want to pack the Court. Political advantage. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  20. #2700
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    Trumpism is a cancer that has metastasized throughout America, unfortunately. It's even been shipped overseas, with the far-right in Germany idolizing him.

    I have been having an interesting time informing friends and family that they share an ideology and a fanbase with the far-right in Germany. They are struggling, or refusing, to accept what that makes them.

    Sadly it looks like I will have to keep them removed from my life until they come to their senses, whenever that may be.
    That's of course not only an occurance in America and Germany. It's a mental tendency that exists and existed always. Todays, we see it radicalized and at the surface, all day long (that's the difference). No. 45, such a person as potus, is also only a symptom, not the origin!
    I called it 'renaissance of fascism' already years ago in the D&D, prior to 2015. It was and is predictable for a long time. And it is of course not the same fascism from 1920s - 45, but a modernized form, while many core drivers are the same. And the signs (future scenarios) do not look good, that this mentality will ever vanish, vice versa.
    Last edited by DaVinci; November 24, 2020 at 01:39 PM.
    #Anthropocene #not just Global Warming but Global Disaster, NASA #Deforestation #Plastic Emission #The Blob #Uninhabitable Earth #Savest Place On Earth #AMOC #ICAN #MIT study "Falsehoods Win" #Engineers of Chaos
    #"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
    Any chance for this exam? Very low, the established Anthropocentrism destroys the basis of existence.
    #My Modding #The Witcher 3: Lore Friendly Tweaks (LFT)
    #End, A diary of the Third World War (A.-A. Guha, 1983) - now, it started on 24th February 2022.

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