View Poll Results: Who would you vote for in the 2020 US Presidential elections?

Voters
78. You may not vote on this poll
  • Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Republicans)

    34 43.59%
  • Joe Biden - Kamala Harris (Democrats)

    37 47.44%
  • Jo Jorgensen - Spike Cohen (Libertarians)

    4 5.13%
  • Howie Hawkins - Angela Walker (Greens)

    0 0%
  • Other (please, specify)

    3 3.85%

Thread: USA elections 2020 - 2021

  1. #2861

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Wisconsin high court kicked Trump out and told him to re-file in district court.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  2. #2862

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus
    Exaggerating and distorting two simple lines in the FBI's document (I listed them and argued why they do not match your 'accurate' description) is what I would call a claim. Nor were Long or Johnson's confessions mentioned in that document that you so explicitly reference. Which makes your 'description' "The false narratives peddled by BLM incited killers to act according to the FBI." at best a fallacious claim at authority for a narrative of your own.
    Your claim that I misrepresented the FBI’s explicit reference to the “specific” motives of the shooters is false on its face. I provided the link to the document and your own quotation from it confirmed the accuracy of my description. The shooters’ comments as I have referenced them are also accurate and were publicly reported at the time.
    During the standoff, Mr. Johnson, who was black, told police negotiators that “he was upset about Black Lives Matter,” Chief Brown said. “He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people. The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/u...-shooting.html
    LONG: Let's go with the history. One hundred percent of revolutions, of victims fighting their oppressors, have been successful through fighting back, through bloodshed. Zero have been successful just over simply protesting. It has never worked and it never will.

    You've got to fight back. That's the only way a bully knows to quit. He doesn't know words. If y'all want to keep protesting, do that. But for the serious ones, the real ones, the alpha ones, we know what it's going to take.

    https://www.npr.org/2016/07/19/48657...tical-ideology
    Quote Originally Posted by FBI
    Specifically in the Dallas, TX and Baton Rouge, LA, attacks, the assailants said they were influenced by the Black Lives Matter movement, and their belief that law enforcement was targeting black males.

    http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...dsetReport.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The false narratives peddled by BLM incited killers to act according to the FBI.

    It wasn’t a claim, but rather an accurate description of the FBI’s findings, one which, again, was referenced by the killers themselves as to their mindset and motivations (BLM and the false narratives about a vast police conspiracy against blacks, a central tenet of the group’s mantra. See Long’s confession that BLM, in his view, did not go far enough to combat this conspiracy, so he took matters into his own hands; Johnson that he was upset by BLM and the narrative of police targeting blacks, wanted to kill white people).
    Thus my reference and description was completely accurate, your projection of bad faith motives notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; December 03, 2020 at 01:44 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  3. #2863
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Several people have asked when Moderation Staff will close this thread. Just so you are all aware, we have decided to not close this thread like we did in 2016. We encourage people to make new threads for related topics, and let this one eventually run out of steam.
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  4. #2864
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    It looks like Charlie Daniels was right. The devil really did go down to Georgia. Lots of action after burst pipe (er, stopped up toilet) "shut down" ballot counting:

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...lation-center/

    ...

    One poll watcher from Texas prevented nearly 10,000 fraudulent votes from going to Biden and he was only at one location:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ion-integrity/
    Last edited by B. W.; December 03, 2020 at 03:52 PM.

  5. #2865
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Perhaps you haven’t been paying attention. Support for BLM sat at 27% in 2016, and was net negative until 2018. Perhaps the public has a short memory. Perhaps the Democrat Party and sympathetic publicity has succeeded in whitewashing the group’s image. Perhaps both. Just because extremism has been gradually laundered into mainstream public discourse over the last 4-5 years, that doesn’t make it less extreme.

    According to the group’s website:

    This narrative of “rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state” is not only false, it also motivated violence and murder, as per the FBI.

    The “Hands up, don’t shoot” narrative was debunked. An organization inspired and catalyzed by divisive false narratives is problematic as it is. Far from being “moderate,” the group’s demands, according to sponsored legislation, include:

    “Dramatically” reduce military spending/DoD budget
    Use federal grants to push state and local governments to close prisons and defund police
    End life (prison) sentences
    Decriminalize illegal border crossings
    Close all federal prisons
    Fund race based reparations

    These demands are extreme by their own description and sit well outside the political mainstream:

    Antaeus editor comment: Spoiler as a courtesy to the thread:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    The Biden campaign publicly rejected most or all of these measures and they are unpopular with the public. Nevertheless, Democrat Party mega donors have been bankrolling BLM as a useful political tool for several years now.
    This is all great stuff. Really great stuff. Really really great stuff. The key premise of the Black Lives matter movement is the perception that to police, black lives don't matter as much as others. What your poll results show, is that there are a raft of proposed solutions for the key premise of BLM. Those possible solutions have been thrown out there by all manner of people who agree with the key premise of the Black Lives Matter movement. Some of those solutions are extreme. I'll agree with you and the majority of Americans there. But if anything all these poll results show is that the various solutions for the BLM premise are not agreed upon universally.

    As such, unfortunately, your well assembled collection of poll results doesn't actually address anything that the post is responding to. To suggest that someone has to support defunding police or reparations in order to be sympathetic to the key premise of Black Lives Matter, seems to me a fallacy of composition.

    On the other hand, the most recent Pew survey posted by Ludicus above does show that that there is broad mainstream support for BLM: 55% of all Americans (which is actually down from earlier in the year). Even if those people don't support some of the various attempts to solve the key premise. "Extreme" is subjective, and relative. Thus I can only argue about what is a popular or mainstream opinion, and what is not. As I stated above, this 55% of Americans is a large enough chunk that it's fairly safe to say that support is mainstream.
    Last edited by antaeus; December 03, 2020 at 07:10 PM. Reason: I think it's extreme when my Amazon delivery is a day late...
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  6. #2866

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    This is all great stuff. Really great stuff. Really really great stuff. The key premise of the Black Lives matter movement is the perception that to police, black lives don't matter as much as others. What your poll results show, is that there are a raft of proposed solutions for the key premise of BLM. Those possible solutions have been thrown out there by all manner of people who agree with the key premise of the Black Lives Matter movement. Some of those solutions are extreme. I'll agree with you and the majority of Americans there. But if anything all these poll results show is that the various solutions for the BLM premise are not agreed upon universally.

    As such, unfortunately, your well assembled collection of poll results doesn't actually address anything that the post is responding to. To suggest that someone has to support defunding police or reparations in order to be sympathetic to the key premise of Black Lives Matter, seems to me a fallacy of composition.

    On the other hand, the most recent Pew survey posted by Ludicus above does show that that there is broad mainstream support for BLM: 55% of all Americans (which is actually down from earlier in the year). Even if those people don't support some of the various attempts to solve the key premise. "Extreme" is subjective, and relative. Thus I can only argue about what is a popular or mainstream opinion, and what is not. As I stated above, this 55% of Americans is a large enough chunk that it's fairly safe to say that support is mainstream.
    I cited and discussed the “impetus” and “catalyst” for the BLM movement from its mission statement page, as well as its not-so-moderate-nor-popular demands from sponsored legislation, and how overall public support for the group has been anything but consistent (generally more opposed rather than supported) within the few years it has been around. Sorry that conflicts with what you would like it to be in order to fit your preferred characterization, but my “assembled collection” directly addresses and debunks your narrative regarding the premise of the group and its demands.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; December 03, 2020 at 07:29 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #2867
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I cited and discussed the “impetus” and “catalyst” for the BLM movement from its mission statement page, as well as its not-so-moderate-nor-popular demands from sponsored legislation and how overall public support for the group has been anything but consistent (generally more opposed rather than supported) within the few years it has been around.
    I'm sorry, all I see is a survey from 2016 which shows the movement less popular than now, but all that says is that the movement has gained more attention and favourable opinions over time. Probably in line with the continued actions by police that support the movement's key premise. The only other survey I see here is the Pew one which shows 55% of Americans view Black Lives Matter favourably. You have used a bunch of other polls on individual policy issues to insinuate overall opinions, which as I said, is a fallacy of composition. Some might support one of those policy options and not another. Some might support none but still agree with the BLM key premise. These results prove nothing but feelings towards the individual questions asked. To explain this more clearly using an analogy, I agree with Donald Trump's assessment that China is a currency manipulator with a terrible human rights record. But I doubt that I would vote for Donald Trump. On the other hand, I disagree with Biden's views on health care, but he's more likely to get my vote. Thus my argument here is that many Americans sympathise, or empathise with the key premise of Black Lives Matter, without being supportive of some of the random proposed solutions. My argument seems to be backed by all the evidence so far presented in this thread.

    The movement is nebulous, decentralised and if anything a loose alliance of self-identifying interest groups. Some of which are certainly what you'd label extremist - movements will always attract those who seek to gain. But the vast majority of those who protested in support of the key premise of the movement, as well as the vast majority of it's organisers and those 55% of Americans who view it favourably are not at all extremist. Going back a few posts, you consistently seek to tar a majority by the actions of the few. Again, a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Sorry that conflicts with what you would like it to be in order to fit your preferred characterization, but my “assembled collection” directly addresses and debunks your narrative regarding the premise of the group and its demands.
    Blather. Your loose collection of logical fallacies might be enough to convince you of your argument, and anybody else who wants a social justice movement to be the bad guy because it is scary for those who benefit from the status quo. But to me it is just meh.
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  8. #2868

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I'm sorry, all I see is a survey from 2016 which shows the movement less popular than now, but all that says is that the movement has gained more attention and favourable opinions over time. Probably in line with the continued actions by police that support the movement's key premise. The only other survey I see here is the Pew one which shows 55% of Americans view Black Lives Matter favourably. You have used a bunch of other polls on individual policy issues to insinuate overall opinions, which as I said, is a fallacy of composition. Some might support one of those policy options and not another. Some might support none but still agree with the BLM key premise. These results prove nothing but feelings towards the individual questions asked. To explain this more clearly using an analogy, I agree with Donald Trump's assessment that China is a currency manipulator with a terrible human rights record. But I doubt that I would vote for Donald Trump. On the other hand, I disagree with Biden's views on health care, but he's more likely to get my vote. Thus my argument here is that many Americans sympathise, or empathise with the key premise of Black Lives Matter, without being supportive of some of the random proposed solutions. My argument seems to be backed by all the evidence so far presented in this thread.

    The movement is nebulous, decentralised and if anything a loose alliance of self-identifying interest groups. Some of which are certainly what you'd label extremist - movements will always attract those who seek to gain. But the vast majority of those who protested in support of the key premise of the movement, as well as the vast majority of it's organisers and those 55% of Americans who view it favourably are not at all extremist. Going back a few posts, you consistently seek to tar a majority by the actions of the few. Again, a logical fallacy.



    Blather. Your loose collection of logical fallacies might be enough to convince you of your argument, and anybody else who wants a social justice movement to be the bad guy because it is scary for those who benefit from the status quo. But to me it is just meh.
    Source material from neutral parties as well as BLM itself directly debunking your false narrative may be “meh” to you, but the only logical fallacy to be found is your choice to ignore them and pretend your claims weren’t addressed.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  9. #2869
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Source material from neutral parties as well as BLM itself directly debunking your false narrative may be “meh” to you, but the only logical fallacy to be found is your choice to ignore them and pretend your claims weren’t addressed.
    You're correct. "Meh" was probably too stronger response. I certainly didn't lack enough interest to reply several times. But none the less, I certainly do find what you presented unconvincing relative to the arguments I made.

    I can't remember how we turned this into the Floyd thread. But just to show that I'm still keeping one eye on the election, it seems there are binders.
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  10. #2870

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    You're correct. "Meh" was probably too stronger response. I certainly didn't lack enough interest to reply several times. But none the less, I certainly do find what you presented unconvincing relative to the arguments I made.

    I can't remember how we turned this into the Floyd thread. But just to show that I'm still keeping one eye on the election, it seems there are binders.
    I think “meh” is an accurate description of how most have treated the kind of information I provided. It’s not exactly new. Many people feel like supporting BLM makes them a good person, not to mention the level of social pressure to that effect. I suppose it’s natural for some to therefore give the organization the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. BLM came up in reference to Biden’s endorsement of the group, and subsequently, the influence and concessions the group’s leadership is seeking from the new administration. It will be interesting to see how that develops once Trump and his desperate shenanigans have faded from the news cycle and the president elect has to set about putting out fires and trying to build public consensus around actual policy objectives.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #2871

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Forget BLM. Blexit is where it's at

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Ignore List (to save time):

    Exarch, Coughdrop addict

  12. #2872

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Forget BLM. Blexit is where it's at

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What a bunch of utter baloney. It looks like it was written by some type of OANN fanatics that only want to spread a false agenda of discord and live in an echo chamber of far-right wing propaganda. The ones inciting violence are the aggressive Trump fanatics. Trump supporters only support rule of law when it suits them, as you can see from their actions, they ignore or circumvent the rule of law whenever it serves them.

    This is just garbage propaganda designed to rile people up with no foundation in reality. Really bottom of the barrel rubbish here.

    Go ahead and try to support every single one of those ridiculous claims with evidence before thinking of responding. What an embarrassing post to make.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

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  13. #2873

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Just for reference of those following:

    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #2874
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    The long-term targets of Black Lives Matter activists include police violence, incarceraton levels, death penalty and many other injustices that stem from systemic racism.There is nothing extremist or reactionary here, much on the contrary.In fact, Biden is commited to fight systemic racism, Joe Biden's Criminal Justice Policy | Joe Biden
    Key points,
    - reduce the number of people incarcerated in this country while also reducing crime
    -criminal justice system cannot be just unless we root out the racial, gender,and income-based disparities in the system.
    - criminal justice system must be focused on redemption and rehabilitation.
    -No one should be profiteering off of our criminal justice system.
    -immediate passage of SAFE Justice Act, an evidence-based, comprehensive bill to reform ourcriminal justice system “from front-end sentencing reform to back-end release policies.
    -Create a new $20 billion competitive grant program to spur states to shift from incarceration to prevention.
    -Invest in educational opportunity for all.
    -Expand and use the power of the U.S. Justice Department to address systemic misconduct in police departments and prosecutors’ offices.
    -End all incarceration for drug use alone and instead divert individualsto drug courts and treatment.
    -Eliminate the death penalty.
    -End the criminalization of poverty.
    Welcome to the 21th century, America.
    ---
    Biden's choices -Biden defends Cabinet choices

    Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris alsoresponded to criticism from progressives that individuals from their wing of the party are not represented in the incoming administration.
    We’re not done yet, Jake, we’re not even halfway there,” Harris said.
    There is a reason to postpone these decisions. It is a perfectly understandable reason. January 5 will determinate Senate control.

    An embarassing moment for the conservative wing of the Democratic Party: Obama compares his younger self to Alexandria Ocasio
    A very interesting interview to The Atlantic, Why Obama Fears for Our Democracy - The Atlantic
    Excerpts,
    Obama on multiculturalism,
    America as an experiment is genuinely important to the world not because of the accidents of history that made us the most powerful nation on Earth, but because America is the first real experiment in building alarge, multiethnic, multicultural democracy. And we don’t know yet if that can hold. There haven’t been enough of them around for long enough to say for certain that it’s going to work
    Obama on America’s caste system,

    America has always had a caste system—rich and poor, not just racially but economically—but it wasn’t in your face most of the time when Iwas growing up. Then you start seeing Lifestylesof the Rich and Famous,that sense that either you’ve got it or you’re a loser.
    I think there are things other than stuff and money and income (…)it’s possible to make common cause with a certain strand ofconservative...who believes in notions like stewardship and caringfor the least of these: They share this with those on the left who have those same nonmaterialistic impulses but express themselves through a nonreligious prism.
    Obama on racism

    (…)I signified a shift in power. Just my mere presence worried folks—insome cases explicitly, in some cases subconsciously.
    And then there were folks around to exploit that and tap into that(...)And look: Well into my presidency, you would have sitting Republican officials caught trafficking emails in which they’re comparing Michelle to animals or suggesting that I was the product of mymother’s bestiality—these were Republican officials, not just random folks. So that undercurrent is there.
    I think these issues have been at the heart of this country’s debatefor a very long time, around not just race but class—although we don’t like talking about class—around gender, around the sense that some people are more American than others, more worthy of citizenship than others.
    Who do we include under the label “We the People”?
    Obama on Netanyahu
    It’s not a secret that Netanyahu and I did not share worldviews.. But I think Bibi is a fascinating character the same way that Putin is a fascinating character.

    I understand how it is that the Israelis, given the world they are in,given the history they have experienced, and given the genuine threats that surround them, can turn to a figure who represents strength of a very particular kind and why that might clash with Obama’s views about certain things. My hope is that there is going to be some young future politician inIsrael who is reading this book and is reading for this context and sees that I’m paying attention to this context.
    Obama on Wall Street

    (...)they worked hard, they played by the rules as they understood them,but there is that sense of not understanding how the rest of us live,and not being interested. There’s a lack of curiosity there that isfrustrating and dangerous. An example of that is the former head of BP during the oil spill, who explicitly says that all he wants to dois get back his life. He says this as fishermen’s livelihoods arebeing destroyed, the coastline is being destroyed. There is a cluelessness there.
    That is all quite true.


    Last edited by Ludicus; December 04, 2020 at 10:52 AM.
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  15. #2875

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Obama has specifically criticized the “defund the police” mantra, as well as the obsession with “woke” counterculture, as harmful to Democrat policy priorities. The party knows this. Biden knows this. While the latter panders to the racial clientelism structured into the Democrats’ model of political support, his actual nominees have so far been of the same variety as Obama’s; veterans of the political establishment, corporate executives, etc. The mythology of systemic racism that provides a justification for BLM’s extremism and unpopular policy demands will probably subvert and replace the Democrat establishment with the party’s radicals at some point. However, in such case, the cynical calculus the establishment has used to turn Americans against each other for political gain will only worsen.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  16. #2876

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    The idiosyncrasies of what the "Defund the Police" mantra is trying to do is fundamentally not a bad idea. What it is trying to sum down into a slogan of three words, is, however, not fundamentally good for PR. In summary, good idea, bad strategy. They need a much better way to push it publicly for something that the cartoonists fundamentally caught onto a lot quicker than the people themselves.

    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  17. #2877

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    The mythology of systemic racism
    Are you saying you don't believe systemic racism exists/has existed?
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

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  18. #2878

    Default USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The idiosyncrasies of what the "Defund the Police" mantra is trying to do is fundamentally not a bad idea. What it is trying to sum down into a slogan of three words, is, however, not fundamentally good for PR. In summary, good idea, bad strategy. They need a much better way to push it publicly for something that the cartoonists fundamentally caught onto a lot quicker than the people themselves.
    There were plenty of post hoc rationalizations for what "defund the police" actually meant. In reality it was a visceral reaction to George Floyd's death which referred to disbanding or crippling police departments/units. This position was far too extreme for the liberal establishment to endorse.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Are you saying you don't believe systemic racism exists/has existed?
    This question has been extensively discussed here.

    I can say with confidence that Legio_Italica does not believe that systemic racism has never existed.
    Last edited by pacifism; December 04, 2020 at 12:06 PM. Reason: double posts merged



  19. #2879

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    There were plenty of post hoc rationalizations for what "defund the police" actually meant. In reality it was a visceral reaction to George Floyd's death which referred to disbanding or crippling police departments/units. This position was far too extreme for the liberal establishment to endorse.
    Not really. Even police departments really knew what it meant and some have started hiring their own social case workers to help with street calls for incidents who don't require the hand of someone trained like a police officer, but a social worker. Like, say, a mental health call to substance abuse to a wide range of other things even a normal police call once the scene is clear the social workers are allowed in to help the victims through the incident.

    When the police departments of Kentucky are catching on to what this really means, this is not an argument you're going to win.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/19/alexandria-kentucky-police-social-workers

    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  20. #2880

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Not really. Even police departments really knew what it meant and some have started hiring their own social case workers to help with street calls for incidents who don't require the hand of someone trained like a police officer, but a social worker. Like, say, a mental health call to substance abuse to a wide range of other things even a normal police call once the scene is clear the social workers are allowed in to help the victims through the incident.

    When the police departments of Kentucky are catching on to what this really means, this is not an argument you're going to win.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/19/alexandria-kentucky-police-social-workers

    The idea that "defund the police" was, as implied by the cartoon, an attempt to empathize or sympathize with overburdened police departments in the wake of George Floyd's death is simply false. As pointed out previously, members of the Minneapolis City Council, for instance, concocted a knee-jerk proposal to disband the entire MPD, while de Blasio disbanded an anti-crime unit in New York City. The suggestion that the intended meaning of "defund the police" was that certain responsibilities ought to be delegated to different organizations/professionals was a subsequent rationalization.



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