View Poll Results: Who would you vote for in the 2020 US Presidential elections?

Voters
76. You may not vote on this poll
  • Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Republicans)

    33 43.42%
  • Joe Biden - Kamala Harris (Democrats)

    36 47.37%
  • Jo Jorgensen - Spike Cohen (Libertarians)

    4 5.26%
  • Howie Hawkins - Angela Walker (Greens)

    0 0%
  • Other (please, specify)

    3 3.95%

Thread: USA elections 2020 - 2021

  1. #2701
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    It's a mental tendency that exists and existed always.
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  2. #2702
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post

    I have been having an interesting time informing friends and family that they share an ideology and a fanbase with the far-right in Germany. They are struggling, or refusing, to accept what that makes them.

    Sadly it looks like I will have to keep them removed from my life until they come to their senses, whenever that may be.
    You have no idea what a blessing that is to your family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
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  3. #2703
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    You have no idea what a blessing that is to your family.
    A person who severs familial ties over political disagreements may well be the victim of manipulation, if not indoctrination.The attempts to convince people to prioritize partisanship over personal relationships are probably the most insidious aspect of recent polarization.

  4. #2704
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    You have no idea what a blessing that is to your family.
    Hey look, someone just assuming that they know a stranger's familial relationships.

    My family has truly toxic members, and their idolatry of that cancerous, whiny child as well as their fascist, racist, and sexist views is a stain and a humiliation on the rest of the family. The they have said over the past few years and the views they now espouse are truly disgusting.

    If you can't recognize that as a flaw, perhaps you need to reflect on some things, such as why you are on the side of some objectively bad people.

    We are sadly well past political differences, but one of morals. And the last four years have revealed that several members of my family not only have the morals of a homicidal maniac but also the backbone of an invertebrate.

    There is nothing more that needs be said. I wish they would extricate their heads from their butts so we could be a proper family again but that is the price of the choices they have made.

    ---------

    Edit: Speaking of which, I had great pleasure in texting my family today that lives in PA about their win for democracy since PA certified.

    I also had a lot of fun in texting my other family who are NOT as pleased that democracy won in that state but that is their problem.

    For once I kinda want Thanksgiving to happen.
    Last edited by TheDarkKnight; November 24, 2020 at 03:41 PM.
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  5. #2705
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    A person who severs familial ties over political disagreements may well be the victim of manipulation, if not indoctrination.The attempts to convince people to prioritize partisanship over personal relationships are probably the most insidious aspect of recent polarization.
    Sounds like partisanship is the new sectarianism.
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  6. #2706
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    That's of course not only an occurance in America and Germany. It's a mental tendency that exists and existed always. Todays, we see it radicalized and at the surface, all day long (that's the difference). No. 45, such a person as potus, is also only a symptom, not the origin!
    I called it 'renaissance of fascism' already years ago in the D&D, prior to 2015. It was and is predictable for a long time. And it is of course not the same fascism from 1920s - 45, but a modernized form, while many core drivers are the same. And the signs (future scenarios) do not look good, that this mentality will ever vanish, vice versa.
    I agree, "Trumpism" ain't an ideology any more than Bushism or Obamaism. Trump has very little core fanbase, he captured (and has now lost) a few swing voters and the rest of his supporters are the usual rusted on suspects. He's been a bit ruder than most but business has mostly been as usual.

    Re cycles of unrest, periods of naked oligarchic exploitation like the Gilded Age and the Roaring 20'seem to spawn unrest as wealth gaps yawn ever wider and entire communities disappear into the gulf. Obviously each period has its distinguishing narratives but broadly speaking a reaction in favour of "a bit more bread and circuses' seems to quell unrest. Maybe some healthcare, pot and community policing will calm the farm, here's hoping anyway.
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  7. #2707
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...binet-n1248715

    Damn, somebody should inform Kamala Harris that she's not Asian enough.
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  8. #2708
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...binet-n1248715

    Damn, somebody should inform Kamala Harris that she's not Asian enough.
    It’s all the more horrifying when you step back and think about the fact this is how things are now. These complaints and articles and analyses are completely unironic. The Democrats have brought racial clientelism into the mainstream, permanently. Also, for anyone keeping track, the US population is 0.2% Pacific Islander and 6% Asian. There are 15 Cabinet positions. As a racial representation of the US population, the Cabinet would have 2 blacks, 3 Hispanics and the rest white. So far Biden has announced 3 Jews, 2 whites, 1 Hispanic, and 1 black person.

  9. #2709
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    It’s all the more horrifying when you step back and think about the fact this is how things are now. These complaints and articles and analyses are completely unironic. The Democrats have brought racial clientelism into the mainstream, permanently. Also, for anyone keeping track, the US population is 0.2% Pacific Islander and 6% Asian. There are 15 Cabinet positions. As a racial representation of the US population, the Cabinet would have 2 blacks, 3 Hispanics and the rest white. So far Biden has announced 3 Jews, 2 whites, 1 Hispanic, and 1 black person.
    It's not just Democrats who are playing this game.

    One feature of the recent election was how much targeting there was of specific demographic blocks. Republicans targeted Latin American immigrants for example, and how often did Trump talk about how black people love him?

    It's ironic that you point out this as a Democrat thing. It's not. It's just a thing that is being done now. Focusing on different cultural or interest groups during election season makes people in those groups feel listened to. It's no surprise that they're all going to come knocking when their favoured politicians get elected.
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  10. #2710
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    It's not just Democrats who are playing this game.

    One feature of the recent election was how much targeting there was of specific demographic blocks. Republicans targeted Latin American immigrants for example, and how often did Trump talk about how black people love him?

    It's ironic that you point out this as a Democrat thing. It's not. It's just a thing that is being done now. Focusing on different cultural or interest groups during election season makes people in those groups feel listened to. It's no surprise that they're all going to come knocking when their favoured politicians get elected.
    How is getting more women into Congress an example of racial clientelism?

  11. #2711
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    How is getting more women into Congress an example of racial clientelism?
    It's not. I thought it was clear that I was discussing demographic identity groups - I clearly said "ethnic or interest groups in my post. I don't think that what you're calling "clientism" applies to race alone. I think it applies to all identity groups. Be they women, ethnic, special needs, what ever.

    In that context, in the article it's the targeted approach to increasing representation for women that is what you would call "clientism"

    "Clientism" gets votes. So all parties do it. It's just easier to make that judgement on Democrats because they make it more obvious by signposting their diversity. But it's not that hard to find Republicans bragging about diversity when it suits them as well.
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  12. #2712

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    Hey look, someone just assuming that they know a stranger's familial relationships.
    My family has truly toxic members, and their idolatry of that cancerous, whiny child as well as their fascist, racist, and sexist views is a stain and a humiliation on the rest of the family. The they have said over the past few years and the views they now espouse are truly disgusting.

    If you can't recognize that as a flaw, perhaps you need to reflect on some things, such as why you are on the side of some objectively bad people.

    We are sadly well past political differences, but one of morals. And the last four years have revealed that several members of my family not only have the morals of a homicidal maniac but also the backbone of an invertebrate.
    You should collect and archive anything they have written, said or posted, so there is evidence to hold them responsible for their beliefs, get them put on a Tascon list, then brought before a Truth and Reconciliation Committee to answer for their crimes, followed by having them sent to re-education camps. If this fails to correct their thought processes, then treat them like cancer. And you know how cancer is treated...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    A person who severs familial ties over political disagreements may well be the victim of manipulation, if not indoctrination.The attempts to convince people to prioritize partisanship over personal relationships are probably the most insidious aspect of recent polarization.
    It's how you can tell they belong to a cult.
    Last edited by Infidel144; November 25, 2020 at 07:37 AM.

  13. #2713
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    It's not. I thought it was clear that I was discussing demographic identity groups - I clearly said "ethnic or interest groups in my post. I don't think that what you're calling "clientism" applies to race alone. I think it applies to all identity groups. Be they women, ethnic, special needs, what ever.

    In that context, in the article it's the targeted approach to increasing representation for women that is what you would call "clientism"

    "Clientism" gets votes. So all parties do it. It's just easier to make that judgement on Democrats because they make it more obvious by signposting their diversity. But it's not that hard to find Republicans bragging about diversity when it suits them as well.
    The point is you’re clearly being as disingenuous as the right wing tagline about “why should Trump accept the results of this election when Democrats spent the last four years refusing to accept the last one,” for example. There is no equivalence between examples of GOP demographic targeting and the racial clientelism brought about by left wing identity politics, obviously. In the best case, your talking points here amount to whataboutism that ignores the reality of the situation, which I can only assume is why you’re trying to shift the goalposts away from racial clientelism toward a broader discussion about demographic targeting.

  14. #2714

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    There is no equivalence between examples of GOP demographic targeting and the racial clientelism brought about by left wing identity politics, obviously. In the best case, your talking points here amount to whataboutism that ignores the reality of the situation, which I can only assume is why you’re trying to shift the goalposts away from racial clientelism toward a broader discussion about demographic targeting.
    Nikki Haley at the RNC convention.

    "This is personal for me. I am the proud daughter of Indian immigrants. They came to America and settled in a small southern town. My father wore a turban. My mother wore a sari. I was a brown girl in a Black and white world. We faced discrimination and hardship, but my parents never gave into grievance and hate. My mom built a successful business. My dad taught 30 years at a historically Black college. And the people of South Carolina chose me as their first minority and first female governor."

    Marco Rubio during 2016 primaries.

    "When you talk about the millions of green cards that are coming in, those aren't actually workers at all. They are just coming in primarily based on family connection. And let me tell you, when my parents came in 1956, I acknowledge that my parents came to the U.S. on a family-based system. The problem is nothing looks like it did 60 years ago. But today in the 21st Century, 60 years later, finding jobs when you don't have skills is very difficult. We need to move to a merit- based system of immigration, not just on H-1B, particularly on green cards. The primary criteria for bringing someone from abroad in the 21st Century should be, what skills do you have? What business are you going to open? What investment are you going to make? What job are you going to be able to do when you arrive?"

    Donald Trump. Twitter.

    "So if African-American unemployment is now at the lowest number in history, median income the highest, and you then add all of the other things I have done, how do Democrats, who have done NOTHING for African-Americans but TALK, win the Black Vote? And it will only get better!"

    Ultimately, GOP is a party of mostly white men. Hence why they pander mostly to that demographic.

  15. #2715
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Nikki Haley at the RNC convention.

    "This is personal for me. I am the proud daughter of Indian immigrants. They came to America and settled in a small southern town. My father wore a turban. My mother wore a sari. I was a brown girl in a Black and white world. We faced discrimination and hardship, but my parents never gave into grievance and hate. My mom built a successful business. My dad taught 30 years at a historically Black college. And the people of South Carolina chose me as their first minority and first female governor."

    Marco Rubio during 2016 primaries.

    "When you talk about the millions of green cards that are coming in, those aren't actually workers at all. They are just coming in primarily based on family connection. And let me tell you, when my parents came in 1956, I acknowledge that my parents came to the U.S. on a family-based system. The problem is nothing looks like it did 60 years ago. But today in the 21st Century, 60 years later, finding jobs when you don't have skills is very difficult. We need to move to a merit- based system of immigration, not just on H-1B, particularly on green cards. The primary criteria for bringing someone from abroad in the 21st Century should be, what skills do you have? What business are you going to open? What investment are you going to make? What job are you going to be able to do when you arrive?"

    Donald Trump. Twitter.

    "So if African-American unemployment is now at the lowest number in history, median income the highest, and you then add all of the other things I have done, how do Democrats, who have done NOTHING for African-Americans but TALK, win the Black Vote? And it will only get better!"

    Ultimately, GOP is a party of mostly white men. Hence why they pander mostly to that demographic.
    Again, demographic targeting/individual GOP members celebrating their immigrant background and success story as a personal note =\= the left wing identity politics that have become racial clientelism within the Dem Party and anything they are involved in from a leadership or political narrative standpoint. You can pretend it’s the same for the sake of argument all you want. It isn’t, and no serious person imagines otherwise. Trump’s cynical pandering to the “Black vote” was a deliberate mockery of the DNC’s sense of entitlement to it.
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  16. #2716

    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Again, demographic targeting/individual GOP members celebrating their immigrant background and success story as a personal note =\= the left wing identity politics that have become racial clientelism within the Dem Party and anything they are involved in from a leadership or political narrative standpoint. You can pretend it’s the same for the sake of argument all you want. It isn’t, and no serious person imagines otherwise. Trump’s cynical pandering to the “Black vote” was a deliberate mockery of the DNC’s sense of entitlement to it.
    Sorry, but the Republicans are a pretty frakking white party. Otherwise in spite of them getting more of the black and latino vote than they've ever gotten in years, they would've started asking questions about why in god's name did they lose more of the white vote in the suburbs of Philadelphia, Detroit, and Milwaukee than they've ever lost in years instead of immediately throwing around conspiracies of fraud in downtown Philadelphia, Detroit, and Milwaukee.
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  17. #2717
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    A person who severs familial ties over political disagreements may well be the victim of manipulation, if not indoctrination.The attempts to convince people to prioritize partisanship over personal relationships are probably the most insidious aspect of recent polarization.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    Hey look, someone just assuming that they know a stranger's familial relationships.

    My family has truly toxic members, and their idolatry of that cancerous, whiny child as well as their fascist, racist, and sexist views is a stain and a humiliation on the rest of the family. The they have said over the past few years and the views they now espouse are truly disgusting.

    If you can't recognize that as a flaw, perhaps you need to reflect on some things, such as why you are on the side of some objectively bad people.

    We are sadly well past political differences, but one of morals. And the last four years have revealed that several members of my family not only have the morals of a homicidal maniac but also the backbone of an invertebrate.

    There is nothing more that needs be said. I wish they would extricate their heads from their butts so we could be a proper family again but that is the price of the choices they have made.

    ---------

    Edit: Speaking of which, I had great pleasure in texting my family today that lives in PA about their win for democracy since PA certified.

    I also had a lot of fun in texting my other family who are NOT as pleased that democracy won in that state but that is their problem.

    For once I kinda want Thanksgiving to happen.
    There are Democrats and Republicans in my family. Political party affiliation has never been a problem or a point of contention at the Thanksgiving table, but then again we're all Christians.

    And, BTW, you're a little early on that Penn. vote certification. The judge that dismissed the case by Trump's lawyers did so without hearing evidence:

    https://www.lifenews.com/2020/11/25/...riday-hearing/


    .......

    69.5 Million for Barack Obama in 2008
    65.9 Million for Barack Obama in 2012
    65.8 Million for Hillary Clinton in 2016
    80+ Million for Joe Biden in 2020

    So a guy who couldn't fill up a parking lot where people didn't even have to get out of their car during one of his rare campaign appearances get more votes than Barrack Obama who filled up stadiums across the country.

    The best quote of the day was by Sharyl Atkinson: "Sheep are happy to live in an artificial reality".
    Last edited by B. W.; November 25, 2020 at 03:34 PM.

  18. #2718
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Obama says what I have been saying...but in my opinion, he is choosing his words too carefully. The opposite happens, in the US racial minorities are the victims. In fact, whites are the only racial group that never suffer systemic racism.
    Obama:Republicans portraying white men as 'victims' helped ...
    BarackObama said part of the reason 73 million Americans voted to re-electDonald Trump in the election was because of messaging from Republicans that the country, particularly white men, are underattack.
    ---
    As a side note: David A. Andelman: Trump wanted to bomb Iran — and still and still could — leaving Biden to pick up the pieces.

    There are a lot of signs.
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 25, 2020 at 04:18 PM.
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  19. #2719
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Oh no, please don't mention systemic racism here. I'm not sure I can COPE with the direction this thread is bound to take.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  20. #2720
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: USA elections 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    It’s all the more horrifying when you step back and think about the fact this is how things are now. These complaints and articles and analyses are completely unironic. The Democrats have brought racial clientelism into the mainstream, permanently. Also, for anyone keeping track, the US population is 0.2% Pacific Islander and 6% Asian. There are 15 Cabinet positions. As a racial representation of the US population, the Cabinet would have 2 blacks, 3 Hispanics and the rest white. So far Biden has announced 3 Jews, 2 whites, 1 Hispanic, and 1 black person.
    It's not permanent. All it takes is a few major ups to see just how stupid nominations based on anything but merit and competence really are. The private sector is already starting to recoil from the whole women quota thing. Same will happen with racial appointsments. It will get worse for a few years and then it will get better.
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