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Thread: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Currently, Section III of the Constitution reads as follows:

    Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Praefects for a review of their behavior and possible disciplinary action. Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens for behavior considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide if a referral is frivolous. If a referral has merit, the Praefects request a defense2 from the referred and decides3 whether4 and which5 disciplinary action is to be taken.6
    I would propose the following changes.

    Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Praefects for a review of their behavior and possible disciplinary action. Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens for behavior considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide whether a referral has merit, does not have merit, or is frivolous. The Praefects request a defense from the referred and decides whether and which disciplinary action is to be taken. If the Praefects deem the referral to be frivolous in nature than whomever filed the referral will be censured.
    Citizen Referrals should not be taken lightly, and neither should a classification of frivolity. The purpose of a Citizen Referral is to censure a user that has acted in ways unbecoming of a Citizen. A charge of frivolity should be taken just as seriously as a referral itself and should not be used lightly by the Praefects.

    This amendment is not retroactive and does not apply to any previous or currently pending referrals at the time of the amendments passing.

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    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Opposed




  3. #3
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    As the borderline between 'no merit ' and frivolous is purely subjective and has to be interpreted by praefects, it would cause only further troubles and tensions between different factions in the curia. So no.
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    I doubt we need to go the step in threatening a censure for a frivolous referral, not at least on a single case basis. When it becomes more in line with a habit of such referrals is when action is encouraged against that referrer. We're not trying to put the praefects out of work, and we're not trying to stop everyone from making a referral out of fear of it being deemed frivolous and then having action taken against them instead. If one makes a case to the praefects and it is dismissed, well there is your first indication that it maybe wasn't as serious as you thought. Pushing that matter again and again is the behavior that is unwarranted.

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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    I don't think there are enough examples of this type of behaviour occurring to warrant this change, at this time.

    I also believe that PMs - the form of communication by which referrals are delivered - are still subject to the ToS, and therefore also subject to the (subjective, unwritten) "higher standards" of Citizens. Therefore, if a Consul or a Praefect feels that it is warranted, they could initiate a referral, based off the PM.
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    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Frunk brings up a good point, if it's truly serious enough a referral can be initiated based off it. I'm not seeing a need for this clause.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    My two cents on referrals initiated by citizens.

    Judging by the numbers (recent and past) most citizens either do not like to make citizen referrals or the vast majority of citizens habitually behave in an acceptable way. Do you need the reminder in the constitution that you should not behave like imbeciles? Do you need the threat (more like a phantom threat actually) of receiving a notification from the administration of the curia? Aren't you citizens, accepted into the club because you are minimally mature and you have consistently performed well?

    The majority of complaints refer to behaviors that take place within the curia, and most of this citizen referrals, frivolous or not, are motivated by personal quarrels.

    A tiny percentage of citizens (according to my rather draconian point of view over ten years no more than ten citizens have behaved like idiots without breaking the tos) who punctually behave like imbeciles do not deserve so many headaches, and if someone behaves in a flagrant embarrassing way, they will no doubt also be breaking the rules in some way and will be subjected to a citizen refferral via moderation.

    Get rid of the referrals initiated by citizens, they bring more damages than benefits.


    On a side note, can you read this without feeling a little ashamed?
    Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner
    Is this bombast not ridiculous to you?
    Last edited by mishkin; April 09, 2020 at 05:00 AM.
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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    I cannot support this proposal due to what Hader said. And Frunk is correct, any messages about a citizen referral, regardless how, must follow the ToS.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I cannot support this proposal due to what Hader said. And Frunk is correct, any messages about a citizen referral, regardless how, must follow the ToS.
    since when frivolous complaints in a PM (or anywhere) are against the terms of service? Do you remember any referral (any complaint) where the tos were broken?
    Last edited by mishkin; April 09, 2020 at 06:41 AM.
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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    He didn't speak about frivolous complaints. He said all messages (PMs) must follow the ToS, like I said, which is true. Citizens, also, must observe the "higher standards" at all times, including in PMs. This doesn't need to be stipulated anywhere; it's simply logical.

    If a Citizen did act unbecomingly in a PM, the only way that would ever come to light is, of course, if they messaged someone who then reported the message. To spell it out, there are two ways that can happen:

    a) The PM is forwarded to the Consul; this assumes that the recipient of the PM from the Citizen is aware of the "higher standards".

    b) The PM is reported to moderation using the Report button. Moderation would then inform the Consul, making no judgement on the validity of the referral in the process.

    If the person who forwards/otherwise reports a message is not a Citizen, the Consul could decide the initiate a referral in their own name; I recall this happening in the past.

    The roundabout answer is that all PMs sent by Citizens, including those which are submitting referrals, are subject to the "higher standards" and therefore eligible to be referred, themselves.

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  11. #11
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    I though this was about citizen referrals, not about referrals started via moderation, something that no one has questioned. Anyway, of course a censor or any other person holding a curial position has always had the ability to initiate a citizen referral based on any message received. But this has never happened, right? Because they never received an absurd complaint or for any other reason?

    Regarding "citizens must observe the highest standards, obviously", let me laugh at that. Citizens have had really behavior here, publicly, and have even publicly insulted their peers without receiving any citizen referral. I know.

    Again: The vast majority of citizens do not want to know anything about starting a citizen referral, the vast majority of citizen referrals are nonsense motivated by personal quarrels, get rid of the possibility that citizens initiate complaints, usually they do not bring anything good. (Too simple for the curia?).
    Last edited by mishkin; April 09, 2020 at 08:34 AM.
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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    It is about Citizen referrals. I am saying that if someone were to report a PM using the Report button, and that PM contained things which might be considered unbecoming of a Citizen, that moderation would, likely, forward that PM onto the Consul for the Consul's consideration. That is not the same as Staff referrals automatically triggered when a Citizen receives an infraction, and correct; no one has brought those up.

    I happen to know that a referral can be initiated off a PM received, without a Staff referral being received, because I initiated one such referral myself when I was Curator.

    I hardly see why you bother "laughing" at anything. If you were a Citizen, you'd be able to launch a referral for such "" behaviour yourself. Even as a non-Citizen, you are, and have always been, free to PM the Consul to suggest that, in your view, the "higher standards" have been breached and, in your view, a referral should be launched, which, as I said earlier, the Consul may do in their own name. This is already all status quo.

    Forgive me if I don't care for you to speak for "the vast majority of Citizens".
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    Imperator Majora's Avatar Wub.
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    I'd see merit in some action taken if someone has a history of doing this, but for single instances or stuff that could just as easily be shoved out on the spot, it seems rather heavy handed and I can see the potential issues this is trying to solve simply flip the other way.

    Sufficiently poor behavior in this regard is grounds for a referral by itself, given context. I think that would be sufficient discouragement if there is a legitimate issue. Further, if it really goes above in stupidity that approaches TOS malicious, moderation could be given the problem and then the user abusing the system has really done it for themselves. I think this is what Frunk was trying to get at.
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Regarding "citizens must observe the highest standards, obviously", let me laugh at that. Citizens have had really behavior here, publicly, and have even publicly insulted their peers without receiving any citizen referral. I know.
    I must slightly agree with the idea here. Seems clear to me that the higher standard thing is... lax, or uneven at best. After all, I got in, and it wasn't on good attitude or achieving a higher standard for myself. But perhaps that's a matter for the CCT, or another thread if we bring up a counter claim of abolishing the referral system. I can't say I'd support it, but I'd humor the initiative if given a decent case.

    But the thing about the 'higher standards' question is that it's only as effective as the culture of the place supports it, and we're already in 'we'll take what we can' mode given activity and circumstances. That entire idea might have to lax officially as it has unofficially. And sparks like these lend a bit of life to an institution that spends the majority of the rest of its time, well, not acting at all.

    Pretty sure (if Frunk's implication alone is any clue) there have in fact been non-citizen cases sent in that have been picked up by the Consul/Curator. But none I can draw up for example.
    Last edited by Imperator Majora; April 09, 2020 at 09:00 AM. Reason: love having thoughts after spending fifteen minutes having thoughts in the first place

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Frunk, this is about citizen referrals initiated by citizens.

    No one is arguing that a citizen referral cannot be initiated because of a personal message received, I have said that never before has a censor launched a complaint based on the content of a complaint received.

    I will ignore personal references, you are welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post

    Pretty sure (if Frunk's implication alone is any clue) there have in fact been non-citizen cases sent in that have been picked up by the Consul/Curator. But none I can draw up for example.
    I think I did it, I really don't remember what (or who) it was about (shame on me).
    Last edited by mishkin; April 09, 2020 at 08:59 AM.
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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Frunk, this is about citizen referrals initiated by citizens.
    I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    No one is arguing that a citizen referral cannot be initiated because of a personal message received, I have said that never before has a censor launched a complaint based on the content of a complaint received.
    And you know this has "never" happened, how? Are you privy to every Citizen referral ever conducted? The "vast majority", as one might call it, are archived privately, and the details of the referral and the means by which they were initiated, are never made public.

    However, I can, and just did, say that I know of one such Citizen referral that I initiated, based on a PM received.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    And you know this has "never" happened, how? Are you privy to every Citizen referral ever conducted? The "vast majority", as one might call it, are archived privately, and the details of the referral and the means by which they were initiated, are never made public.
    Do you know that I was a censor (and magistrate, and curator for a while, holly ) a couple of times, not long ago, with access to the archived cases? Incidentally, for a couple of years the complaints (and the discussions leading to the verdicts) are made public quite frequently. When the accused is acquitted, basically.

    In any case, it seems to me that you are ignoring my argument that it would be better for the curia / citizens to simply get rid of the citizen referrals started by citizens because they are hardly used and when they are used it is mostly for spurious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    However, I can, and just did, say that I know of one such Citizen referral that I initiated, based on a PM received.
    No one is denying this
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    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    You're right; I am ignoring that. You should make a new proposal suggesting we do away with referrals. This proposal is not about that.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    My initial comment was not off topic at all, but certainly with some collaboration I have damaged this proposal. Sorry Akar.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    You're right; I am ignoring that. You should make a new proposal suggesting we do away with referrals. This proposal is not about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    My initial comment was not off topic at all, but certainly with some collaboration I have damaged this proposal. Sorry Akar.

    In my opinion, anything that relates to the issue of referrals is topical to this thread. If you think that the best way to reduce frivolous referrals is to do away with them completely, that's a valid point. If you don't agree with that, that's a valid point. The purpose of the OP is to generate discussion on the issue. And, hopefully, make the necessary changes to the procedure.

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  20. #20
    Imperator Majora's Avatar Wub.
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    Default Re: [PROPOSAL] Frivolous Citizen Referals

    It's my opinion that this proposal is a reaction to a single catalyst, and is a hammer swing to swat at a fly. The idea of making a more efficient setup is something I'm game for, but the 'need' this proposal is addressing isn't substantial enough to justify it.

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