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Thread: What Is ISLAM?

  1. #141

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Care to point out few changes that happened with Christianity so that I understand what you're aiming to see?
    I'm aiming for you to back up this claim:

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If he was a product of that culture a lot of things in the Quran would not exist.
    Which you are avoiding. Because nothing really changed in that culture during time in question beyond few things that Muhammad introduced.

    But really, you're just pettily trying ad hominem. I'm saying that Islam just carries and sanctifies the culture of late 6th century Arabia in which Muhammad grew up, you're saying that because it was written in 7th century, it carries the culture of 7th century Arabia, which is exactly the same, and try to attack me using this non-argument.

  2. #142

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I'm aiming for you to back up this claim:
    Which you are avoiding. Because nothing really changed in that culture during time in question beyond few things that Muhammad introduced.
    But really, you're just pettily trying ad hominem. I'm saying that Islam just carries and sanctifies the culture of late 6th century Arabia in which Muhammad grew up, you're saying that because it was written in 7th century, it carries the culture of 7th century Arabia, which is exactly the same, and try to attack me using this non-argument.
    Why is asking for a clarification on the kind of example's you're asking for is me avoiding to answer the question? I believe at this point you're avoiding it. Will you not provide an example?

    My point on Quran being revealed during 7th century was to point out how even the basic info about it was wrong. It wasn't to point out that Quran was a product of 7th century instead of 6th.
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  3. #143

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why is asking for a clarification on the kind of example's you're asking for is me avoiding to answer the question? I believe at this point you're avoiding it. Will you not provide an example?

    My point on Quran being revealed during 7th century was to point out how even the basic info about it was wrong. It wasn't to point out that Quran was a product of 7th century instead of 6th.
    Muhammad's formative years were in 6th century. Quran and hadith are reflections of his personality that formed in that time. Not that it matters. Beyond his religious and military influence, the culture was just the same. This entire thing is completely irrelevant, you're just trying ad hominem by splitting hairs in order to try to discredit me. You've even spelled that out.

    And go ahead. Give any example how the late 6th century Arabic culture was different from early 7th century independently of Muhammad but relevant to what's written in Quran and thus would validate your claim that Quran would be substantially different if written few years earlier or later. Because that is your claim.

  4. #144

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Muhammad's formative years were in 6th century. Quran and hadith are reflections of his personality that formed in that time. Not that it matters. Beyond his religious and military influence, the culture was just the same. This entire thing is completely irrelevant, you're just trying ad hominem by splitting hairs in order to try to discredit me. You've even spelled that out.

    And go ahead. Give any example how the late 6th century Arabic culture was different from early 7th century independently of Muhammad but relevant to what's written in Quran and thus would validate your claim that Quran would be substantially different if written few years earlier or later. Because that is your claim.
    This post indicates that you didn't read the post you're responding to.
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  5. #145

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This post indicates that you didn't read the post you're responding to.
    This post indicates you're just stalling because you have no proper response.

  6. #146
    LestaT's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    *looks at hadith* pretty crappy way of life, a 6th century Arabic barbarism.
    Some of those fits 6th century Arabia and and today. Some only fits then and not today if taken literally. It's expected from text created by men of the supposed sayings and actions of the prophet.

  7. #147

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Some of those fits 6th century Arabia and and today. Some only fits then and not today if taken literally. It's expected from text created by men of the supposed sayings and actions of the prophet.
    I dare to say that the only thing from Muhammad's life fitting today are basic biological functions.

  8. #148

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Islam is inherently political distinct from other religions, I feel like that was missed.

  9. #149
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    First off, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. The promises that God made with Abraham and Sarah was that her seed Isaac would be the forerunner of Messias which turned out to be the case. Jesus Christ was that seed. So what is Islam? Well, it has some claim that Hagar's son Ishmael was part of that promise which of course is not true but nonetheless Mohammed used it as an excuse in building his religion. For sure God blessed Ishmael by telling him that he would be the founder of a great nation but never was the promise given to Abraham and Sarah part of that at any time. In fact Mohammed is not even a prophet meaning that Islam has no building blocks on which to stand.

  10. #150

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The promises that God made with Abraham and Sarah was that her seed Isaac would be the forerunner of Messias which turned out to be the case. Jesus Christ was that seed. So what is Islam? Well, it has some claim that Hagar's son Ishmael was part of that promise which of course is not true but nonetheless Mohammed used it as an excuse in building his religion. For sure God blessed Ishmael by telling him that he would be the founder of a great nation but never was the promise given to Abraham and Sarah part of that at any time. In fact Mohammed is not even a prophet meaning that Islam has no building blocks on which to stand.
    Doesn't substantiate this:
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    First off, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion.
    Also, arguing that Mohammed is not a prophet because your own belief system doesn't recognize him as such is a very moot point to make.
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  11. #151
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    Well, Jesus Christ paid for the sins of all the people for whom He died and rose again but what did Mohammed do for the sins of all his people? Nothing, why? Because they have to repair their own sin by trying to be good enough for God to have mercy on them. So, in effect they die in their sin and cannot enter heaven. The things that Jesus Christ did were all prophesied for around four thousand years before He came onto the planet and came true. He never indulged in sex why? Because He was God the Son born as a human just as predicted. Yet here we have Muslim men believing that they are going to enjoy sex in their paradise when Jesus Christ both God and Prophet says there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven meaning no sex. Mohammed is a false prophet meaning he is not a prophet of God whereas Jesus Christ is a real prophet because He is God. It's my belief system because it works.

  12. #152

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Well, Jesus Christ paid for the sins of all the people for whom He died and rose again but what did Mohammed do for the sins of all his people? Nothing, why? Because they have to repair their own sin by trying to be good enough for God to have mercy on them. So, in effect they die in their sin and cannot enter heaven. The things that Jesus Christ did were all prophesied for around four thousand years before He came onto the planet and came true. He never indulged in sex why? Because He was God the Son born as a human just as predicted. Yet here we have Muslim men believing that they are going to enjoy sex in their paradise when Jesus Christ both God and Prophet says there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven meaning no sex. Mohammed is a false prophet meaning he is not a prophet of God whereas Jesus Christ is a real prophet because He is God. It's my belief system because it works.
    What you say Jesus did has no real value. He gave his existing life for an invented sin fully knowing that he could resurrect himself if he wanted, being all powerful etc. That's no sacrifice. In reality, there is no original sin. Muhammad's job was not to save people. He was a message. He gave a message. We have little information on whether Jesus had sex or not. Your views on his sexuality is purely based on what the Bible says or doesn't say. The validity of a religion is also not dependent whether people can hump others in heaven. Merely claiming what your beliefs tell you doesn't really validate them as the reality as you suggest that it works. You don't know how it works in any shape or form. Moreover, none of your preaching explains why Islam is not an Abrahamic religion.
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  13. #153
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    I've explained why Islam is not an Abrahamic religion so let's explore it a little more. Abraham knew that God was capable of raising the dead so he had no problem when asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. So when just about to deliver the blow God stayed his hand and so he Abraham was accounted righteous before God, why? Because Isaac from whom Messias would come was the forerunner of the sacrifice that God would have Jesus do. Abraham's hand was stayed because Isaac was not that Messias but Jesus Christ was. Now I know this is way over your head to get but when man fell into sin from the garden on, every prophecy by prophets of God told of Him and His sacrifice for sin. Prophets from God cannot lie else they be not prophets from God. Jesus Christ was ordained to be the Lamb of God sacrificed before even the worlds were made and He came into the world through the line of Abraham, Sarah and Isaac.

    Now concerning sin and its origin where do you think it started if not when Adam and Eve fell? I mean if there is no sin why does a Muslim require mercy from God to enter this supposed paradise? Sinners cannot enter heaven under any circumstances unless the Law has been satisfied so how can God show any mercy if it means breaking His own Law? Jesus Christ became sin in taking on the sin of all them He was a Substitute for so when the wrath of the Law and the Father fell on Him on that cross and His blood was shed every drop of sin on whom He substituted for were cleansed of their sin. There never was a sacrifice before or after that great day when Jesus Christ died on that cross for it covered all time. The ability to believe that only comes by and from God. Further, Jesus Christ was raised from the dead to be witnessed by over four hundred people some of whom wrote the New Testament and now awaits His return to judge the whole of creation. This judgement will apply to Mohammed the one who thought he was superior to Jesus Christ so since only God can be the Judge of anything it follows that Jesus Christ being that Judge has to be God.

  14. #154

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I've explained why Islam is not an Abrahamic religion so let's explore it a little more. Abraham knew that God was capable of raising the dead so he had no problem when asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. So when just about to deliver the blow God stayed his hand and so he Abraham was accounted righteous before God, why? Because Isaac from whom Messias would come was the forerunner of the sacrifice that God would have Jesus do. Abraham's hand was stayed because Isaac was not that Messias but Jesus Christ was. Now I know this is way over your head to get but when man fell into sin from the garden on, every prophecy by prophets of God told of Him and His sacrifice for sin. Prophets from God cannot lie else they be not prophets from God. Jesus Christ was ordained to be the Lamb of God sacrificed before even the worlds were made and He came into the world through the line of Abraham, Sarah and Isaac.

    Now concerning sin and its origin where do you think it started if not when Adam and Eve fell? I mean if there is no sin why does a Muslim require mercy from God to enter this supposed paradise? Sinners cannot enter heaven under any circumstances unless the Law has been satisfied so how can God show any mercy if it means breaking His own Law? Jesus Christ became sin in taking on the sin of all them He was a Substitute for so when the wrath of the Law and the Father fell on Him on that cross and His blood was shed every drop of sin on whom He substituted for were cleansed of their sin. There never was a sacrifice before or after that great day when Jesus Christ died on that cross for it covered all time. The ability to believe that only comes by and from God. Further, Jesus Christ was raised from the dead to be witnessed by over four hundred people some of whom wrote the New Testament and now awaits His return to judge the whole of creation. This judgement will apply to Mohammed the one who thought he was superior to Jesus Christ so since only God can be the Judge of anything it follows that Jesus Christ being that Judge has to be God.
    You haven't explained why Islam is not an Abrahamic religion the slightest. In fact, you have been trying your best to avoid addressing any criticism. You just babble on and on about irrelevant stuff. That's is a sign that you have no faith in the merit of your claim. Same with the original sin claims. It should be disturbing to you that you're unable to address anything I say.
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  15. #155
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Abraham knew that God was capable of raising the dead so he had no problem when asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. So when just about to deliver the blow God stayed his hand and so he Abraham was accounted righteous before God, why? Because Isaac from whom Messias would come was the forerunner of the sacrifice that God would have Jesus do.
    That understanding rather invalides the story since was in fact no test of Abraham and his faith and loyalty to god.

    since only God can be the Judge of anything it follows that Jesus Christ being that Judge has to be God.
    Logic that makes the whole crucifixion a bit of farce by god than, and something he could have done rather earlier or replicated so other did not have to wait so long for the good word.

    He never indulged in sex why?
    That would be conjecture I believe.
    Last edited by conon394; December 22, 2020 at 08:18 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #156
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You haven't explained why Islam is not an Abrahamic religion the slightest. In fact, you have been trying your best to avoid addressing any criticism. You just babble on and on about irrelevant stuff. That's is a sign that you have no faith in the merit of your claim. Same with the original sin claims. It should be disturbing to you that you're unable to address anything I say.
    PointOfViewGun,

    It is written that Abraham's son born of Sarah would be the seed out of whom would come Messias. That promise was never ever made to Hagar or Ishmael. When Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac God stayed his hand, why? One, if Isaac had been slain Jesus couldn't have come through him, and two, this was a picture of what God would do by offering up Jesus to be His sacrifice for the sins of men. That you don't want to believe or accept this does not take away what I have said, why? Because that is what is written and prophesised of for some six thousand odd years now.

  17. #157
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    It is written that Abraham's son born of Sarah would be the seed out of whom would come Messias
    After the fact the fact you are still dodging that Abraham's sacrifice was a stage show and as you understand so was that of Jesus. I could add you are dealing with Mythology made up to justify what is the nothing is more obvious that supposed gemology that gets you the list of nations. It quite nice the way it preserves the world view of a people who really only could imagine a tiny sliver of the world.

    When Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac God stayed his hand, why? One, if Isaac had been slain Jesus couldn't have come through him, and two, this was a picture of what God would do by offering up Jesus to be His sacrifice for the sins of men
    I never realized just not omnipotent your view of god was.

    Because that is what is written and prophesised of for some six thousand odd years now.
    Written tops a few centuries BC
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #158

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    It is written that Abraham's son born of Sarah would be the seed out of whom would come Messias. That promise was never ever made to Hagar or Ishmael. When Abraham tried to sacrifice Isaac God stayed his hand, why? One, if Isaac had been slain Jesus couldn't have come through him, and two, this was a picture of what God would do by offering up Jesus to be His sacrifice for the sins of men. That you don't want to believe or accept this does not take away what I have said, why? Because that is what is written and prophesised of for some six thousand odd years now.
    Again, this does not explain why Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. This only tells me that you have no knowledge of Christianity or what the term Abrahamic religions mean. Why do you preach about topic you don't seem to have any knowledge of?
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  19. #159
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    It is not an Abrahamic religion because it does not hold the same beliefs that Abraham did.

  20. #160

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    It is not an Abrahamic religion because it does not hold the same beliefs that Abraham did.
    Based on what Bible says, right?
    The Armenian Issue

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