What Is ISLAM?

[PointOfViewGun]

I’m asking you where in the Bible it says Jesus' sacrifice requires sins of a father to be transferred to the son.

As I said, its a simple logic point. If Jesus sacrificed himself so that people no longer are connected to original sin then that means Adam and Eve's sins must have been transferred throughout generations.

[conon394]

Luther, Calvin and Augustine saw this as being the core of salvation and why the reformation came into effect.

Ahh see we have their interpretation of the what the NT says and a lot back end onto the The OT. There Interpretations are not the only views. Again Pelagius and Julian of Eclanumand would call you a Manichean

[Lord Thesaurian]

As I said, its a simple logic point. If Jesus sacrificed himself so that people no longer are connected to original sin then that means Adam and Eve's sins must have been transferred throughout generations.

If you can’t point where in the Bible it says Jesus' sacrifice requires sins of a father to be transferred to the son, it’s clear you’re making things up to fit your personal narrative.

[PointOfViewGun]

If you can’t point where in the Bible it says Jesus' sacrifice requires sins of a father to be transferred to the son, it’s clear you’re making things up to fit your personal narrative.

I really don't need that. We're not supposed to suspend logic when it comes to the Bible and the Christianity. Original sin and Jesus' supposed sacrifice doesn't work without humans living long after Adam and Eve carrying their sin.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I really don't need that. We're not supposed to suspend logic when it comes to the Bible and the Christianity. Original sin and Jesus' supposed sacrifice doesn't work without humans living long after Adam and Eve carrying their sin.

You claimed your argument is based on the Bible, so yes, you do need to cite that. Justifying your reasons for making stuff up doesn’t make your assertions less spurious.

[PointOfViewGun]

You claimed your argument is based on the Bible, so yes, you do need to cite that. Justifying your reasons for making stuff up doesn’t make your assertions less spurious.

It is based on the Bible. Ezekiel 18 from the Bible tells us of individuality of sin. I already cited that. Wait, wait, are you secretly trying to say that you do not think that Jesus' "sacrifice" was about relieving humans of all times from the sins of Adam and Eve?

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

What was the sin that Adam and Eve angered God? They disobeyed Him plus they didn't believe the consequences for that and so they were put out of the garden never to return. All their offspring being born outside of the garden were subsequently forbidden entrance meaning that they were paying also for what Adam and Eve did. The garden was a figure of heaven and so it was finally withdrawn leaving all mankind and the rest of creation in a world of sin. Yet whilst still in the garden God made the first prophecy of a " seed " Who would contend with Satan for the souls of men, that " seed " being Jesus Christ. Yes, He was the seed of Eve and in time the seed of Mary herself a born sinner so Jesus being the Son of God inside the Godhead would take up union with an egg of Mary to be born human yet without sin, how? Because the Holy Spirit overshadowing her body which was prepared before hand made sure her sin was kept apart from Him. So, into the world came the God/Man to fulfil what God foretold in the garden.

Now coming back to Islam if Jesus is as you believe a Prophet of God and Prophets never lie how is He not believed on by Muslims as being the Saviour of the world? In other words how does a Muslim get into heaven if they are sinners without Jesus Christ? Jesus said that, " No man can get to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws Him," these being the words of One unable to lie because He is a Prophet of God. So, how do Muslims get into heaven? Their blood being tainted by sin cannot be the answer, no not even for death in battle or suicide bombing so what is a Muslim left with? Saving blood has to come from somewhere yet we are told that not one human had or has that blood flowing in their veins. Yes, sin runs that deep in the human soul and so without Jesus Christ coming into the world as a man to give His sinless blood to pay the price of sin no person of whatever belief could ever enter heaven. So what secret does the Muslim have over anyone else?

[Common Soldier]

As I said, its a simple logic point. If Jesus sacrificed himself so that people no longer are connected to original sin then that means Adam and Eve's sins must have been transferred throughout generations.

The bad decisions made by our ancestors can affect current generations. Even though slavery is long gone, we in the US are still living in the after effects of slavery.

Likewise, the actions of Adam and Eve can effect people today. To feel the effects of Adam and Eve sin does not mean the sin transfered to future generations, only that the negative effects are felt.

[basics]

The problem with Islam is that it supposes that its adherents can work their way into this paradise all dependent on Allah being merciful to some but not all. Since there is no originality to sin then why do people do it, why the need for Allah's mercy? You see the problem of sin didn't just arrive at Mohammed's door some thousands of years after it had been the scourge of the world until then and so one would think that Allah or his supposed angel would have stressed this point to Mohammed. Clearly that didn't happen and so Muslims have to work to gain entry into this paradise when the previous prophet Jesus said that that couldn't be done. Jesus said that He was the Way into heaven but Mohammed said no He isn't just like the events in the garden when Adam and Eve were persuaded that God didn't mean what He said.

[LestaT]

The problem with Islam is that it supposes that its adherents can work their way into this paradise all dependent on Allah being merciful to some but not all. Since there is no originality to sin then why do people do it, why the need for Allah's mercy? You see the problem of sin didn't just arrive at Mohammed's door some thousands of years after it had been the scourge of the world until then and so one would think that Allah or his supposed angel would have stressed this point to Mohammed. Clearly that didn't happen and so Muslims have to work to gain entry into this paradise when the previous prophet Jesus said that that couldn't be done. Jesus said that He was the Way into heaven but Mohammed said no He isn't just like the events in the garden when Adam and Eve were persuaded that God didn't mean what He said.

There is no original sin in Islam. God created Adam & Eve (mankind) to be the caliphs of the earth. They were not 'thrown' down just because of eating some fruits or whatever.

About what Jesus said, it was about following his way, not Paul's way.

How did Jesus pray? Read your bibles. Then compare it with the way muslims pray. Who's following Jesus? You or me?

[basics]

There is no original sin in Islam. God created Adam & Eve (mankind) to be the caliphs of the earth. They were not 'thrown' down just because of eating some fruits or whatever.

About what Jesus said, it was about following his way, not Paul's way.

How did Jesus pray? Read your bibles. Then compare it with the way muslims pray. Who's following Jesus? You or me?

LestaT,

Good to hear from you again. It's been so long. So, let's begin. Adam and Eve fell because they disobeyed as well as disbelieved God when He said that if they ate of that tree's fruit they would die. That is the original sin because it was the first sin man made and the result was that death came into the world. Therefore we can see that the price for sin is death plus eternal banishment from heaven. Why it is passed on to the rest of humanity is because Adam and Eve's nature changed when the curse was placed on them and so that nature passed onto every being born from them.

Paul was taught by men of God as well as the Lord Himself and what he has written is no different from the other disciples of Christ.

Jesus when He prayed it was to His Father. Do Muslims pray to Jesus' Father?

[PointOfViewGun]

LestaT,
Good to hear from you again. It's been so long. So, let's begin. Adam and Eve fell because they disobeyed as well as disbelieved God when He said that if they ate of that tree's fruit they would die. That is the original sin because it was the first sin man made and the result was that death came into the world. Therefore we can see that the price for sin is death plus eternal banishment from heaven. Why it is passed on to the rest of humanity is because Adam and Eve's nature changed when the curse was placed on them and so that nature passed onto every being born from them.
Paul was taught by men of God as well as the Lord Himself and what he has written is no different from the other disciples of Christ.
Jesus when He prayed it was to His Father. Do Muslims pray to Jesus' Father?

Can you cite the Biblical verse where it says Adam and Eve's stay in heaven was eternal before they'd eat the fruit?

[Infidel144]

Jesus when He prayed it was to His Father. Do Muslims pray to Jesus' Father?

The reference being made is to this:
"And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed..."
Matthew 26v39

It is part of the usual da'wa script to utilize this to claim that Jesus prayed just like muslims do, but ignore that Jesus also prayed like this:
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father..."
John 17v1
"And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that..."
John 11v41
"Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them..."
Luke 9v16

It also ignores that various christian rites do also pray prostrate (at times).
Biblically there are a variety of postures described singularly when people pray, but, AFAIK, no particular ritual mandated for assuming these postures.

[Prodromos]

What Is Best in Life?

[basics]

Can you cite the Biblical verse where it says Adam and Eve's stay in heaven was eternal before they'd eat the fruit?

PointOfViewGun,

The garden was but a shadow of Heaven and why when Adam and Eve sinned they were put out never to return. The garden was removed why? Because all creation was now under the curse and since salvation would only come by Faith in Jesus Christ if it remained Faith wouldn't apply. So reading of the fall of man in Genesis is where you'll find it.

[PointOfViewGun]

So reading of the fall of man in Genesis is where you'll find it.

Can you cite the relevant section?

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

So after God created man on the sixth day it is written that He planted a garden in an area quite specific to itself into which He placed the man. Gen,1:27. and Gen 2:7-8. Therefore as the woman was made whilst Adam was in the garden we conclude that this happened in the six days of creation, why? Because it is written that He created both male and female on the sixth day. Further it was from within the confines of the garden that Adam named every living thing as to its kind. It does not however refer to the sea creatures and as to why probably because the garden was in the midst of land although it does refer to a river coming to four heads or four specific rivers in their own right. As there was no death at that time in the garden we must accept that naming of the fish kinds would have resulted in fish having to be caught and in some cases dying so it is one explanation why the sea creatures are not mentioned. That is why I refer to the garden as being a shadow of Heaven.

[PointOfViewGun]

Gen,1:27. and Gen 2:7-8

Genesis 1:27

So God created mankind in his own image,in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:7-8

Then the Lord God formed a man[a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.

Neither of these verses that you have cited so far indicate that Adam and Eve were to reside in heaven forever before they ate the fruit. Would you like to give it an other try?

[basics]

Genesis 1:27

Genesis 2:7-8

Neither of these verses that you have cited so far indicate that Adam and Eve were to reside in heaven forever before they ate the fruit. Would you like to give it an other try?

PointOfViewGun,

I said that the garden was but a shadow of Heaven, not Heaven itself, that being something yet to come into the story. So, in Gen 2:16-17 we then are told that death could come if they disobeyed God. Therefore we can come to the conclusion that death was unknown to them then and subsequently if they had obeyed God death wouldn't have happened meaning that if they had obeyed God they would still be there not knowing what death was.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

I said that the garden was but a shadow of Heaven, not Heaven itself, that being something yet to come into the story. So, in Gen 2:16-17 we then are told that death could come if they disobeyed God. Therefore we can come to the conclusion that death was unknown to them then and subsequently if they had obeyed God death wouldn't have happened meaning that if they had obeyed God they would still be there not knowing what death was.

Genesis 2:16-17

And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

The concept of death while being in heaven is a little odd one. Yet, it still doesn't tell us about the nature of their stay in heaven, whether its eternal or not. They die and go where?