What Is ISLAM?

[Sar1n]

Quran telling Muslims to not compel anyone about religion doesn't mean you can make freedom of religion a law. What you're doing here is arguing for the sake of arguing to keep a negative narrative about Islam alive.

Ah. I see what you are trying to do. You are trying to say that you can't make religious laws from Qu'ran in so awkward manner as to not give out the fact that Qu'ran tells you not to make ANY laws from it.

I mean, that's the only, if incredibly far-fetched, way to interpret your answers in such a way that they actually answer my question.

[Donny Crane]

What is Islam? A religion which is easily manipulated into a political autocracy due to its primary source having been an expansionist warlord and slaver/sex slaver, it has none of the redeeming qualitiies of any other major religion but does share much with many other barbaric medieval religions like the Aztecs.

[basics]

There is no logic in what you say. Breaking of laws doesn't have to come before the laws themselves.

PointOfViewGun,

Laws were introduced because people were doing wrong in the eyes of God so concerning your Allah does his name not mean merciful and compassionate and if so why if laws were not needed?

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,
Laws were introduced because people were doing wrong in the eyes of God so concerning your Allah does his name not mean merciful and compassionate and if so why if laws were not needed?

This is a different issue to what you started with. Original sin is a concept of collective guilt. It doesn't exist in Islam. There is no sense for it to exist anywhere. Laws are not necessarily introduced because people do wrong. You can easily introduce them without anyone doing anything. Not that that has anything to do with your original sin concept.

[alhoon]

I would like to ask about music in Islam. I am not asking for what I could see in wikipedia, I am asking how this is effectively practiced. I know most Muslims don't eat pork. But the vast majority of Muslims I've met in Greece and abroad didn't seem to have a problem with music. Like, at all. I have met hundreds of Muslims and never once I met a Muslim that expressed any issue with music. Now, perhaps some of them may not listen to music and it just happened to never come up in discussion. But I met a great many Muslims in places that music can be heard, since I met them in European countries.
I honestly don't recall if the Pakistani foodstands in Europe I went to had music, but most of them had TVs so unless they were turning sound off while music was playing, they were playing music. Turkey and Egypt have night clubs. But perhaps those clubs cater to non-Muslims or non pious Muslims. I don't know.

So... how is that no music mandate in the Muslim world? No, I don't mean the Taliban. I mean the more moderate nations.
Does part of the population adhere to it while others don't? Are some measures commonplace like no music in public offices and banks etc to not offend the pious Muslims?

And frankly, what constitutes music? Does computer game music counts? I.e. do pious Muslims turn down the music when they play Total War or something?
What about the music that plays when people call somewhere and there's a call wait?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

And the story to the meme:

Algerian metal festival pits fans against conservatives | Algeria | The Guardian

I guess you will get no definite answer as there is not one islam but many denominations within islam.

Some sufi are coming closer to Allah with dancing and music.

There are metal bands in Lebanon, goth bands in Turkey (She past away).

[basics]

The questioner asks, " What is Islam ?" and I think the world through the media is seeing what it really is by the scenes coming out of Afghanistan right now. It appears in that situation that one Muslim is quite prepared to butcher another Muslim no questions asked. I mean for any person with a heart to observe the panic of terrified people clinging to planes trying to take off is mind blowing never mind heart breaking and these were Muslims.

[PointOfViewGun]

The most that would happen in Muslim majority countries would be no music during the call to prayer. Other than that it's just bizarre to have any rule against music. Music is even part of certain religious sect's meditation/praying like that of Sufis.

[Heathen Hammer]

Sufis are certainly the most interesting branch of Islam, they are kinda like the middle-eastern Thule society, they are more of an occult group with links to Hermeticism, Rosincrucianism and other non-abrahamic esoteric teachings.

And the story to the meme:

Algerian metal festival pits fans against conservatives | Algeria | The Guardian

I guess you will get no definite answer as there is not one islam but many denominations within islam.

Some sufi are coming closer to Allah with dancing and music.

There are metal bands in Lebanon, goth bands in Turkey (She past away).

There are actually quite a lot of black/death metal bands from within those countries - Al-Namrood, Damaar, Seeds of Iblis, Tadnees and Janaza.
Unlike their Scandinavian colleagues, they actually risk their lives by making such music, which is pretty much placing them as one of my most favorite music scenes in the world.

[basics]

As I've said before and repeat now Islam is a religion of mixed messages. There are things in it you cannot do yet still do, murder, stealing, rape, adultery, cheating, lying, being the most prominent. There appears to be no comeback for these things which means that it is a false religion, evil to its core.

[conon394]

As I've said before and repeat now Islam is a religion of mixed messages. There are things in it you cannot do yet still do, murder, stealing, rape, adultery, cheating, lying, being the most prominent. There appears to be no comeback for these things which means that it is a false religion, evil to its core.

Pretty sure I can find examples of Christianity of one form or another over the centuries approving all that as well... join the club.

[Sir Adrian]

Please do try find some examples of any form of Christianity officially condoning adultery, rape and theft. I'm curious what you're going to come up with.

[conon394]

Assuming you consider the NT embraces of the OT there is quite a bit of condoned theft and murder. Also last I checked the crusades were approved and not a pink pony walk in the park... but maybe Viscount Raymond-Roger de Trencavel just was a dumb and failed to notice he sold his title and signed his own death warrant somehow. I am sure the citizens of the former capital of Eastern Roman empire might suggest on their end the pope seemed OK with a lot rape theft and murder - re 4th crusade. I'm pretty sure the sack of Jerusalem was pre approved and it pretty much ran the table. Let's see general christian approval of the African slave trade, oh wait how about the delightful christian boarding schools for first nations people, there let's see we have neglect abuse rape. I suppose I could add the 80 and 30 years wars where Christians happily did everything on the list to each other with the specific intent that it was heretics they were inflicting. Oh and David of course, the reason so many American evangelicals use avoid there sorted adultery scandals. Also I rather pretty sure the suppression of classical Greek/Roman religion amounted to a massive level of theft by Theodosius I.

"murder, stealing, rape, adultery, cheating, lying, being the most prominent" I see no reason to argue more strenuously. That is as far as I'm going to go for now but seeing as basics did not actual cite a passages or sources for his claim

[PointOfViewGun]

Judas 21:

Wives for the Benjamites

The men of Israel had taken an oath at Mizpah: “Not one of us will give his daughter in marriage to a Benjamite.”

The people went to Bethel,[a] where they sat before God until evening, raising their voices and weeping bitterly. “Lord, God of Israel,” they cried, “why has this happened to Israel? Why should one tribe be missing from Israel today?”

Early the next day the people built an altar and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings.

Then the Israelites asked, “Who from all the tribes of Israel has failed to assemble before the Lord?” For they had taken a solemn oath that anyone who failed to assemble before the Lord at Mizpah was to be put to death.

Now the Israelites grieved for the tribe of Benjamin, their fellow Israelites. “Today one tribe is cut off from Israel,” they said. “How can we provide wives for those who are left, since we have taken an oath by the Lord not to give them any of our daughters in marriage?” Then they asked, “Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the Lord at Mizpah?” They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly. For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there.

So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

The people grieved for Benjamin, because the Lord had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ But look, there is the annual festival of the Lord in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”

So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”

So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.

In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

[conon394]

So thus the Bible answers Euthyphro's definition of good/holy. It not because the action is good in nature its just because the capricious OT god approves of it.

[basics]

conon394,

God chose Israel to be the nation that would carry His Oracles in Holiness yet like all others most were sinners in that nation's history. So, as it turned out even Israel's most Godly men and women were once sinners just like the others until the day God stepped in to change them, why? Because out of that nation would come Jesus Christ promised at the fall of man to save not only Israelites but men and women of other nations from their sin too. This promise was fulfilled the day that Jesus Christ was put on that cross, shedding His blood for all them that He would save. There is none other in whom that salvation comes, not, not even Islam.

[Sir Adrian]

Assuming you consider the NT embraces of the OT there is quite a bit of condoned theft and murder. Also last I checked the crusades were approved and not a pink pony walk in the park... but maybe Viscount Raymond-Roger de Trencavel just was a dumb and failed to notice he sold his title and signed his own death warrant somehow. I am sure the citizens of the former capital of Eastern Roman empire might suggest on their end the pope seemed OK with a lot rape theft and murder - re 4th crusade. I'm pretty sure the sack of Jerusalem was pre approved and it pretty much ran the table. Let's see general christian approval of the African slave trade, oh wait how about the delightful christian boarding schools for first nations people, there let's see we have neglect abuse rape. I suppose I could add the 80 and 30 years wars where Christians happily did everything on the list to each other with the specific intent that it was heretics they were inflicting. Oh and David of course, the reason so many American evangelicals use avoid there sorted adultery scandals. Also I rather pretty sure the suppression of classical Greek/Roman religion amounted to a massive level of theft by Theodosius I.

"murder, stealing, rape, adultery, cheating, lying, being the most prominent" I see no reason to argue more strenuously. That is as far as I'm going to go for now but seeing as basics did not actual cite a passages or sources for his claim

1. the crusades were not about religion and I really did not think it possible for someone in 2021 to still truly believe they were. Yes the pope did support them but he did so for political and practical reasons. It's more of a case of free real estate for second sons and getting all the murderous knights and second sons killing peasants and each other out of Europe and someplace where they can no longer kill Christians. Didn't really work but oh well. As for the rapes. I don't think you'll find any instances of the pope of the patriarch condoning mass slaughters and rapes like the one when the crusaders took Jerusalem. In fact many a knight found themselves on the verge of being excommunicated and were required to do penance after the fact.

2. Pope excommunicated the people who sacked Zara and Constantinople.

3. Cherry-picking from the Old Testament doesn't work, because the OT is not the ultimate authority or much of an authority by itself given that it is a weird mix of God's will, secular jewish tradition and the history of Israel. Many of the chatpers people love to quote from, such as Leviticus, weren't even addressed to regular jews. Not to mention that you have to jump through mental gymnastics like sola scriptura to make the argument from OT work. The golden rule of the OT is: does it contradict anything Jesus said? Yes? Not applicable to Christians.

4. No christian churches ever approved of the slave trade. Quite the opposite both the catholic and the various protestant groups were opposed to the slave trade and played a major role in banning it. Except for the US, where various evangelical sects were formed solely to justify it, but let's not let a few deranged cultists speak in the name of an entire religion.

5. Neglect by employees of an institution is not really an official stance of any Christian church.

6. David who?

7. The idea that the Dutch war for independence had anything to do with religion is laughable. But I'll humor you. In either case both wars were fought by countries rather than religions. And you can't really claim they were religious wars either considering catholic fought catholic and protestant fought protestant more often than they fought each other.

8. Theodosius I was the emperor of Rome, not the christian church. But I'll grant it to you if you can find of the pentarchs supporting the looting.

[PointOfViewGun]

The OT is to Christianity as the Hadith is to Islam. The difference is that while the NT explicitly validates the OT, the Quran explicitly invalidates the Hadith.

What does Jesus say about rape in the NT though?

[Sar1n]

The OT is to Christianity as the Hadith is to Islam. The difference is that while the NT explicitly validates the OT, the Quran explicitly invalidates the Hadith.

For over 90% of muslims it doesn't.

[basics]

Original sin came into being the day that Adam and Eve disbelieved and disobeyed God. That curse was placed on all their offspring meaning that none are free from it. So, just as was prophesied by God in the garden a " seed " from Eve would eventually come to take away the sin of many and He would come as a man yet be God. The prophets told of Him down through the ages, of His appearance, His demenour, His purpose, His death and His resurrection which all came to pass. He was the One spoken of Who would contend with Satan for the souls of men and women in those garden moments and so He did on that cross at Golgotha.

So, if there is no original sin why did Jesus Christ come into the world and lay His life down for it? And, if there is no original sin why do Muslims need God's mercy? Where did sin come from if not from one original source? Can a Muslim get to paradise without God's mercy and if so why do they need mercy?