What Is ISLAM?

[Sar1n]

I have the intellectual capacity to distinguish between the idea and the follower. There is no real study I could find to suggest what is the prevalence of rejection of Hadith as a religious authority, but sure, vast majority would give Hadith stories religious importance, but no one would equate it with the Quran. That's quite blasphemous thing to suggest. Then again most random Muslims would have no idea what they exactly cover. People have Quran's in their house but rarely a book containing Hadith stories.

You made a claim about what Islam is. You need to acknowledge that you failed miserably at it.

Allow me to enlighten you. Sunni and Shia denominations make up at least 90-95% of all muslims. Both denominations consider hadith to be integral part of Islam and theocracies and non-governmental institutions of both denominations have persecuted, and continue to persecute, Quranists.

[PointOfViewGun]

Allow me to enlighten you. Sunni and Shia denominations make up at least 90-95% of all muslims. Both denominations consider hadith to be integral part of Islam and theocracies and non-governmental institutions of both denominations have persecuted, and continue to persecute, Quranists.

In various but limited corrupt authoritarian states with rather limited applications, sure. Not sure what that enlightens; that your claim that Islam can only produce an anti-Western tenets turned out to be false? You try to ridicule various belief systems with a self-prescribed ownership on logic and reason, yet, you are unwilling to acknowledge where your arguments fail.

[Sar1n]

In various but limited corrupt authoritarian states with rather limited applications, sure. Not sure what that enlightens; that your claim that Islam can only produce an anti-Western tenets turned out to be false? You try to ridicule various belief systems with a self-prescribed ownership on logic and reason, yet, you are unwilling to acknowledge where your arguments fail.

Because despite your wishful thinking, you have proven nothing. On the other hand, your claim falls flat on the facts that even democracies with muslim majority experience Islamic mob violence, among other things.

[PointOfViewGun]

Because despite your wishful thinking, you have proven nothing. On the other hand, your claim falls flat on the facts that even democracies with muslim majority experience Islamic mob violence, among other things.

Yet another moving of the goal post to an unrelated position through the use of false claims (I never really claimed that states with general elections do not experience violence involving Muslims)...

[Sar1n]

Yet another moving of the goal post to an unrelated position through the use of false claims (I never really claimed that states with general elections do not experience violence involving Muslims)...

Your claim here, and not for the first time, is that the violent, oppressive interpretations of Islam are exclusive to authoritarian governments and are not something supported by the common people. These are just few examples how you're wrong.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

What does a Muslim have to do to get into paradise?

[PointOfViewGun]

Your claim here, and not for the first time, is that the violent, oppressive interpretations of Islam are exclusive to authoritarian governments and are not something supported by the common people. These are just few examples how you're wrong.

Sigh... I understand that you're trying to deflect like there is no tomorrow but you shouldn't do that while you lie about what I argue. This all derives from your miserably failed claim that you can not derive secular or modern principles from Islam.

PointOfViewGun,
What does a Muslim have to do to get into paradise?

Believe in Allah and his prophets, and basically be a good person. You get accepted based on your deeds.

[Sar1n]

Sigh... I understand that you're trying to deflect like there is no tomorrow but you shouldn't do that while you lie about what I argue. This all derives from your miserably failed claim that you can not derive secular or modern principles from Islam.

My claim is that in practice it never happens, for a good reason.

Your claim, however, is downplaying the violence of muslims to "few authoritative governments". There is plenty of evidence that it is not so. I've shown some.

[PointOfViewGun]

My claim is that in practice it never happens, for a good reason.

That's not the claim you started with. You started from a point of ideology as the cause of reality. Your claim was one based on compatibility which failed miserably. You later on tried to switch to a position of practice.

Your claim, however, is downplaying the violence of muslims to "few authoritative governments". There is plenty of evidence that it is not so. I've shown some.

Nope. That's not my claim at all. That's just you lying about what I argued to deflect.

[Sar1n]

That's not the claim you started with. You started from a point of ideology as the cause of reality. Your claim was one based on compatibility which failed miserably. You later on tried to switch to a position of practice.

Nope, I never switched. I added.

Nope. That's not my claim at all. That's just you lying about what I argued to deflect.

Allow me to enlighten you. Sunni and Shia denominations make up at least 90-95% of all muslims. Both denominations consider hadith to be integral part of Islam and theocracies and non-governmental institutions of both denominations have persecuted, and continue to persecute, Quranists.

In various but limited corrupt authoritarian states with rather limited applications, sure. Not sure what that enlightens; that your claim that Islam can only produce an anti-Western tenets turned out to be false? You try to ridicule various belief systems with a self-prescribed ownership on logic and reason, yet, you are unwilling to acknowledge where your arguments fail.

Here. Caught you red-handed.

[PointOfViewGun]

Nope, I never switched. I added.

If you added while acknowledging that your previous claims failed, sure, it would be OK, but you didn't. Thanks for admitting that you moved the goal post.

Here. Caught you red-handed.

Caught me red-handed saying that limited persecution of Quranists mostly happens in corrupt authoritarian states? Sure. That's not what you lied about earlier though. You seem to be playing loose with what we're actually arguing about to claim anything you like.

[Sar1n]

If you added while acknowledging that your previous claims failed, sure, it would be OK, but you didn't. Thanks for admitting that you moved the goal post.

Nah. You just fail to acknowledge when your argument falls flat, so I keep adding more.

Caught me red-handed saying that limited persecution of Quranists mostly happens in corrupt authoritarian states? Sure. That's not what you lied about earlier though. You seem to be playing loose with what we're actually arguing about to claim anything you like.

You're saying that the persecution is not violent? That it happens only in authoritarian states? Newsflash. Quranists have been persecuted by other muslims in India, Turkey, Russia, US...

You don't even know what you are talking about. Or you lie intentionally, because it's very easily proven, and I did that, that for vast majority of muslims consider hadith to be integral part of Islam. Which is what you contested.

[PointOfViewGun]

Nah. You just fail to acknowledge when your argument falls flat, so I keep adding more.

That's blatant projection but sure.

You're saying that the persecution is not violent? That it happens only in authoritarian states? Newsflash. Quranists have been persecuted by other muslims in India, Turkey, Russia, US...
You don't even know what you are talking about. Or you lie intentionally, because it's very easily proven, and I did that, that for vast majority of muslims consider hadith to be integral part of Islam. Which is what you contested.

Sigh... It's hard to see a single post from you in this discussion where you don't lie about what I say. Every time I shot your claims down you jump to a different lie. No, I never said that such persecution did not involve violence. I simply pointed out that it's been limited. Even in Saudi Arabia it exists openly. It usually gathers attention if religious reformation calls are followed by political reformation by Quranists in question. If all you have to go by are few random attacks here and there basically every single group in this world are being persecuted. You're basically hollowing out terms to create a position you think you can argue. I didn't contest that most Muslims held Hadith to be an important part of Islam. You made an ignorant remark of equating the Hadith to Quran which is what I contested. You really need to stop relying on making stuff up.

[Sar1n]

Sigh... It's hard to see a single post from you in this discussion where you don't lie about what I say. Every time I shot your claims down you jump to a different lie. No, I never said that such persecution did not involve violence. I simply pointed out that it's been limited. Even in Saudi Arabia it exists openly. It usually gathers attention if religious reformation calls are followed by political reformation by Quranists in question. If all you have to go by are few random attacks here and there basically every single group in this world are being persecuted. You're basically hollowing out terms to create a position you think you can argue. I didn't contest that most Muslims held Hadith to be an important part of Islam. You made an ignorant remark of equating the Hadith to Quran which is what I contested. You really need to stop relying on making stuff up.

Ah. So, assassinations, fatwas, forced exile, arrests and prison sentences are limited persecution. By the way, the most prominent Quranist in Saudi Arabia is currently under arrest, and charges against him due to his professed beliefs and preaching could lead to death penalty. So much for openness.

I wrote that for most muslims, hadith is integral part of Islam. Both Sunni and Shia denominations hold that belief. That you don't believe the same has little relevance here. We're not talking here about how you personally understand Islam, this is about how it's understood by majority of the believers.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ah. So, assassinations, fatwas, forced exile, arrests and prison sentences are limited persecution. By the way, the most prominent Quranist in Saudi Arabia is currently under arrest, and charges against him due to his professed beliefs and preaching could lead to death penalty. So much for openness.

If they can continue to exist in many shapes and forms, sure, it's limited. There is much more violence between Sunnis and Shias, yet, no one talks about them being persecuted. That Saudi guy you speak of was what I was referring to when I pointed out Islamic reformation meeting political reformation as he was very vocal about it. Other Quranists in Saudi Arabia continue their studies and religious advocations untouched. Hence, limited.

I wrote that for most muslims, hadith is integral part of Islam. Both Sunni and Shia denominations hold that belief. That you don't believe the same has little relevance here. We're not talking here about how you personally understand Islam, this is about how it's understood by majority of the believers.

It's also about what Islam is which is what you started your claims with. Let me say this for sure. You can't convince anyone that atheism is the way if you keep on lying about what they argue.

[Sar1n]

If they can continue to exist in many shapes and forms, sure, it's limited. There is much more violence between Sunnis and Shias, yet, no one talks about them being persecuted. That Saudi guy you speak of was what I was referring to when I pointed out Islamic reformation meeting political reformation as he was very vocal about it. Other Quranists in Saudi Arabia continue their studies and religious advocations untouched. Hence, limited.

Where Sunni have power, they persecute Shia, and vice versa, and it's called as such. Iraq, for example, has this problem. Yet Sunni still exist there. Same with Quranists. They're persecuted, but still exist.

This is really desperate from you.

It's also about what Islam is which is what you started your claims with. Let me say this for sure. You can't convince anyone that atheism is the way if you keep on lying about what they argue.

What is Islam? It's what its followers believe it to be and practice as Islam. For vast majority, that includes hadith. You can't prove that one or the other version is the uncorrupted one, if any such exists, as the cornerstone of Islam is something unprovable.

[PointOfViewGun]

Where Sunni have power, they persecute Shia, and vice versa, and it's called as such. Iraq, for example, has this problem. Yet Sunni still exist there. Same with Quranists. They're persecuted, but still exist.
This is really desperate from you.

You're obviously blowing it out of proportion for your narrative. By your logic Sunnis persecuted Christians in USA through 9/11. Everything you've provided so far points at limited persecution. Since you are unwilling to acknowledge the failure of your initial claims you're banking on such semantics. Good luck.

What is Islam? It's what its followers believe it to be and practice as Islam. For vast majority, that includes hadith. You can't prove that one or the other version is the uncorrupted one, if any such exists, as the cornerstone of Islam is something unprovable.

As I said before, I have the intelligence to differentiate between the idea and the follower. I can very easily, and do so on a daily basis, that what the follower does is a corrupted version of the idea.

[Sar1n]

You're obviously blowing it out of proportion for your narrative. By your logic Sunnis persecuted Christians in USA through 9/11. Everything you've provided so far points at limited persecution. Since you are unwilling to acknowledge the failure of your initial claims you're banking on such semantics. Good luck.

I suggest reading up on the term "persecution" before you try another such strawman.

As I said before, I have the intelligence to differentiate between the idea and the follower. I can very easily, and do so on a daily basis, that what the follower does is a corrupted version of the idea.

When 20 people read the same book, they form 20 different ideas based on it. Some will differ only slightly, some very much. You have formed your idea about what is Islam. So did well over 2 billion people. Your idea obviously doesn't align well with over 90% of them. Now which one is closest to the one it was intended to convey? How can you objectively tell, with author dead for a very long time? For your professed intelligence, you're obviously unable to understand this issue.

[PointOfViewGun]

I suggest reading up on the term "persecution" before you try another such strawman.
When 20 people read the same book, they form 20 different ideas based on it. Some will differ only slightly, some very much. You have formed your idea about what is Islam. So did well over 2 billion people. Your idea obviously doesn't align well with over 90% of them. Now which one is closest to the one it was intended to convey? How can you objectively tell, with author dead for a very long time? For your professed intelligence, you're obviously unable to understand this issue.

Except your position was that my reading was not possible. Let me know when you can make your peace with that.

[Sar1n]

Except your position was that my reading was not possible. Let me know when you can make your peace with that.

Nope. My position is, and always was, that since your idea about Islam is similar to only small fraction of muslims, it's just as little relevant for this topic.