What Is ISLAM?

[Lord Thesaurian]

Yet, he didn't die as he could not die in the sense of the word. He had the power to come and come back he did. Sacrifice is something given that can't be taken back. A billionaire giving his fancy car is not exactly a sacrifice.

For those who put faith in Jesus, death is not the end. There is the hope of the resurrection and the new heaven and earth. That doesn’t make those who die less dead. The Bible says they are asleep, waiting for the resurrection, as Jesus was dead in the tomb.

[PointOfViewGun]

For those who put faith in Jesus, death is not the end. There is the hope of the resurrection and the new heaven and earth. That doesn’t make those who die less dead. The Bible says they are asleep, waiting for the resurrection, as Jesus was dead in the tomb.

That may be applicable for you but not for Jesus. It was Jesus himself that raised his own from the "dead" since he was also god.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

Jesus was dead as described by the Roman who pierced His side with the spear. He certainly was dead when those that took His body to the grave and who wrapped Him before placing Him inside. The Jews were scared that His followers would steal the body just saying He was risen so they placed guards at the tomb. On the third day when some women went to anoint the body the guards had gone and the tomb was empty but for an angel beside the wrappings who spoke with them telling them He was gone. On leaving one woman met Jesus alive and well at a distance from the grave and after a few words she ran to tell the disciples. As for the guards when they reported the opened grave the Jews bribed them to say that His followers had indeed stolen the body.

As for death there is no doubt that when anyone dies they are dead although there have been exceptional cases recorded in recent times and they are very exceptional. Jesus was three days in the grave, Lazarus being four days in the grave, but in Jesus' case probably dying of severe blood loss after what He went through before and on that cross. What made the Jews more anxious about killing Jesus was that Lazarus was still a reminder of Him and His work and so they deemed to kill him as well but as far as we know they failed. As we know they had search parties hunting down Jesus' followers yet they couldn't stem the flow of all those that came to believe on Him. Saul of Tarsus being one of the leaders became the most prolific writer about Jesus Christ with perhaps Luke a close contender.

So, is Jesus God? Well as far as I know Muslims believe that it will be Jesus Who comes back to judge all things, not Allah or Mohammed, which if taken that only God can judge all things then surely even for a Muslim Jesus Christ must be God?

[PointOfViewGun]

Jesus was dead as described by the Roman who pierced His side with the spear. He certainly was dead when those that took His body to the grave and who wrapped Him before placing Him inside. The Jews were scared that His followers would steal the body just saying He was risen so they placed guards at the tomb. On the third day when some women went to anoint the body the guards had gone and the tomb was empty but for an angel beside the wrappings who spoke with them telling them He was gone. On leaving one woman met Jesus alive and well at a distance from the grave and after a few words she ran to tell the disciples. As for the guards when they reported the opened grave the Jews bribed them to say that His followers had indeed stolen the body.

As for death there is no doubt that when anyone dies they are dead although there have been exceptional cases recorded in recent times and they are very exceptional. Jesus was three days in the grave, Lazarus being four days in the grave, but in Jesus' case probably dying of severe blood loss after what He went through before and on that cross. What made the Jews more anxious about killing Jesus was that Lazarus was still a reminder of Him and His work and so they deemed to kill him as well but as far as we know they failed. As we know they had search parties hunting down Jesus' followers yet they couldn't stem the flow of all those that came to believe on Him. Saul of Tarsus being one of the leaders became the most prolific writer about Jesus Christ with perhaps Luke a close contender.

So, is Jesus God? Well as far as I know Muslims believe that it will be Jesus Who comes back to judge all things, not Allah or Mohammed, which if taken that only God can judge all things then surely even for a Muslim Jesus Christ must be God?

So? Jesus was still god according to you. He had the power to not be dead, come back to life, or rewind it all. His apparent "death" is no sacrifice. He didn't give anything from himself he could not regenerate.

Allah sending Jesus back down to Earth to judge people doesn't mean its not Allah's judgment. So, no, even for a Muslims Jesus doesn't have to god.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

Jesus certainly had the power not to go on that cross but as can be read He was obedient to His Father. If a Muslim has to believe Mohammed before Jesus why is Mohammed not to be the sent one? The obvious reason is that he is not God but Jesus Christ is. In effect Muslims follow an inferior so-called prophet who had no power but the sword when alive and no power now dead.

[PointOfViewGun]

Jesus certainly had the power not to go on that cross but as can be read He was obedient to His Father.

AKA he was obedient of himself? Yeah, no. Again, Jesus made no sacrifice. You need to come up with a new term for what he did.

If a Muslim has to believe Mohammed before Jesus why is Mohammed not to be the sent one? The obvious reason is that he is not God but Jesus Christ is.

There is no such thing that a Muslim needs to believe Mohammad before Jesus. Allah is not interested in pissing contests.

In effect Muslims follow an inferior so-called prophet who had no power but the sword when alive and no power now dead.

Muhammad had quite a following before anyone of his group lifted any sword. People followed him even as they were prosecuted. Of course, he had no real power as he was the messenger. Allah has the power over you.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

John 3:16, " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So, why do men perish? Obviously because all are sinners. And since Jesus is God who then is the only begotten Son? Why Jesus made flesh by coming into the world as a human being to be that sacrifice which no other sacrifice could do in removing sin to satisfy God and fulfil the Law that no-one could keep.

If Muslims have no need to put Mohammed before Jesus Christ why do they follow Mohammed since he offers them nothing concerning their next destination after death. Why be a Muslim at all?

[Derc]

Why be a Muslim at all?

Well, why be Christian at all? Why be x, y, z at all?
If this is a honest question, you should really go and talk with a Muslim. Because it really shows a lack of insight.

[Knight of Heaven]

AKA he was obedient of himself? Yeah, no. Again, Jesus made no sacrifice. You need to come up with a new term for what he did.

The crucifixion symbolizes Jesus sacrifice. His spiritual resurrection represents salvation, of life after death. Sacrifice of the flesh is the point, as it is understood by Christians.


You saying it isn't so. It doesn't make it so.

[PointOfViewGun]

John 3:16, " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So, why do men perish? Obviously because all are sinners. And since Jesus is God who then is the only begotten Son? Why Jesus made flesh by coming into the world as a human being to be that sacrifice which no other sacrifice could do in removing sin to satisfy God and fulfil the Law that no-one could keep.

God did not gave a son there. That's false based on the Bible itself. Certainly not by Quran. God didn't lose its ability to reach Jesus. Jesus has the power to come back to Earth at any point in time and space. There is no sacrifice.

If Muslims have no need to put Mohammed before Jesus Christ why do they follow Mohammed since he offers them nothing concerning their next destination after death. Why be a Muslim at all?

Muhammad offered Allah's message. He didn't need to offer anything. You are using arbitrary criteria that makes no sense.

The crucifixion symbolizes Jesus sacrifice. His spiritual resurrection represents salvation, of life after death. Sacrifice of the flesh is the point, as it is understood by Christians.
You saying it isn't so. It doesn't make it so.

It still needs to follow a path of logic. It currently does not. Crucifixion symbolizing Jesus' sacrifice doesn't somehow validate what he did as a sacrifice.

[Lord Thesaurian]

The crucifixion symbolizes Jesus sacrifice. His spiritual resurrection represents salvation, of life after death. Sacrifice of the flesh is the point, as it is understood by Christians.


You saying it isn't so. It doesn't make it so.

Afaik most Muslims believe Jesus didn’t die on the cross nor physically ascend to heaven, which I can only assume is where his fixation comes from. Of course, the argument that “If Allah is eternal, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then XYZ doesn’t count” would be unlikely to render the same appreciation.

[Sir Adrian]

So? Jesus was still god according to you. He had the power to not be dead, come back to life, or rewind it all. His apparent "death" is no sacrifice. He didn't give anything from himself he could not regenerate.

Allah sending Jesus back down to Earth to judge people doesn't mean its not Allah's judgment. So, no, even for a Muslims Jesus doesn't have to god.

And muslims get offended when people remind them they're a Nestorian cult. The irony.

[PointOfViewGun]

Afaik most Muslims believe Jesus didn’t die on the cross nor physically ascend to heaven, which I can only assume is where his fixation comes from. Of course, the argument that “If Allah is eternal, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then XYZ doesn’t count” would be unlikely to render the same appreciation.

Quran 4:157-158

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

Not sure why that would cause a fixation.

And muslims get offended when people remind them they're a Nestorian cult. The irony.

I'm pretty confident its not because of the similarity between Nestorianism and Islam with respect to Jesus' nature.

[Lord Thesaurian]

If you don’t believe Jesus was crucified to death in the first place, it begs the question why you’d bother to try claiming the death and resurrection you don’t believe happened also “doesn’t count” by appealing to his divine nature. Allah could have just made everyone Muslim to begin with so the entire story must be illegitimate, etc.

[PointOfViewGun]

If you don’t believe Jesus was crucified to death in the first place, it begs the question why you’d bother to try claiming the death and resurrection you don’t believe happened also “doesn’t count” by appealing to his divine nature. Allah could have just made everyone Muslim to begin with so the entire story must be illegitimate, etc.

That's an illogical argument. One can point out the holes within a train of thought without the need to utilize his or her own beliefs. The story of Jesus' crucifixion is invalid from the perspective of the Bible and the Christians alone. One needs to accept that simple fact first to move on to other beliefs such as that of Muslims.

[Lord Thesaurian]

That's an illogical argument. One can point out the holes within a train of thought without the need to utilize his or her own beliefs. The story of Jesus' crucifixion is invalid from the perspective of the Bible and the Christians alone. One needs to accept that simple fact first to move on to other beliefs such as that of Muslims.

You saying it a bunch of times doesn’t make it a fact. What’s illogical is trying to use Scripture to “invalidate” Scripture.

[Infidel144]

Muhammad offered Allah's message. He didn't need to offer anything. You are using arbitrary criteria that makes no sense.

Muhammad had no choice.

Afaik most Muslims believe Jesus didn’t die on the cross nor physically ascend to heaven, which I can only assume is where his fixation comes from. Of course, the argument that “If Allah is eternal, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then XYZ doesn’t count” would be unlikely to render the same appreciation.

And they* schemed** and Allah schemed**, but Allah is the best of schemers**.
3.54
*Isa's enemies, i.e. the Jews.
**miim-kaf-ra; makara, makr, makra = To decieve, delude, double cross, , dupe, cheat, gull, practice deceit, evasion, guile, strategem, to plot, trick, trickery, slyness, artifice (etc).
i.e. Allah is the best of deceivers.

When Allah said, “O Isa, I am taking you back and raising you to Myself and purifying you of those who disbelieved, and I am making those who follow you superior to those who disbelieved until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your* return, then I will judge between you about what you used to differ over."
3.55
*The "your" here is plural.
Commentary:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Take in I shall take thee [I am taking you] translates mutawaffī, which is usually understood to mean that God takes one unto Himself, that is, in death. In
the context of this verse, most assert, however, that it does not refer to being taken in death, but rather to being taken from the world (Ṭ), although others believe this does refer to God causing Jesus to die. Others say it refers to sleep, as in 6:60: He it is Who takes your souls by night; and 39:42: God takes souls at the moment of their death, and those who die not during their sleep (IK).
The Study Quran
Brackets mine

Nay, he* was raised up by Allah to Himself, and Allah is All-mighty, All-wise.
4.158
*Isa, whom muslims say is Jesus
Commentary:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The present verse, along with 3:55, represents the source of the Islamic belief that Jesus, as in the Christian tradition, ascended directly to God. Raised up here translates rafaʿa, which literally means “to raise,” rather than baʿatha, which is used elsewhere to mean “to resurrect” after death. The verse is thus understood as referring to Jesus’ direct ascension from the earthly realm to the Presence of God without the intervening event of death. The Quran is clear elsewhere, however, that Jesus is not Divine (5:116). Logically, then, he must share in human mortality. Islamic tradition holds Jesus will return near the end times to fight the Antichrist (al-Dajjāl) and will thereafter eventually die and be resurrected with the rest of humanity. Cf. 19:33, where Jesus affirms his future death and “resurrection,” saying, Peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I am raised alive (ubʿathu, ḥayyan, from baʿatha).
op.cit.

And when Allah said, “O Isa, son of Maryam*, did you say to mankind, ‘Take me and my mother** as two gods apart from Allah?’” He said, “Glory to You! It is not for me to say what I have no right to. Had I said it, then You surely would have known it. You know what is within my self, and I do not know what is within Your Self. You are indeed the All-Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me: that you worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, then when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are Witness over everything.
5.116-7

*Maryam is supposed to be the Christian Mary
**The Quran's author claims the Christian "trinity" is Isa, Maryam, Allah:
Certainly, those who say, “Indeed, Allah is the third of three,” have disbelieved , there is no god except One God. And if they do not desist from what they say, a painful punishment will surely afflictl those among them who have disbelieved.
Will they not turn in repentance to Allah and ask His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, and Most Merciful.
The Messiah, son of Maryam, is not but a Messenger, messengers have passed away before him. And his mother was truthful; they both used to eat food. Look how We make clear the Signs for them, then see how perverted they are.
5.73-5

The Quran's author also claims that Maryam (Mary), the mother of Isa (Jesus), is the sister of Harun (Aaron (and thus Moses)), mistaking her for the biblical Miriam:
Then she came to her people, carrying him. They said, “O Maryam, you have done something terrible.
O sister of Harun, neither was your father an evil man, nor was your mother unchaste.”
19.27-8

Perhaps interestingly, Isa is Allah's Word and a Spirit from Allah:
O People of the Book, do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Isa, son of Maryam, is but a Messenger of Allah and His Word that He cast to Maryam, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers, and do not say, “Three.” Desist! it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is one God; Glorified is He! That He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and on the earth. And Allah is a sufficient Gaurdian.
4.171

Compare e.g., John 1v14:
"And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth."

[Sar1n]

You saying it a bunch of times doesn’t make it a fact. What’s illogical is trying to use Scripture to “invalidate” Scripture.

What truly is illogical is trying to apply logic to religion, where central element is omnipotent and thus not a subject to any kind of causality or logic.

[basics]

Well, why be Christian at all? Why be x, y, z at all?
If this is a honest question, you should really go and talk with a Muslim. Because it really shows a lack of insight.

Derc,

The answer is quite simple in that Jesus Christ created us not Mohammed. " In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. " Jesus Christ is that Word and in Him only is there any chance of life after death that is not to be spent in hellish torment. It is Jesus Christ Who is coming back to judge all things and so, " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord," as He sends each person to their eternal destination not Allah or Mohammed, why? Because they are false.

[PointOfViewGun]

You saying it a bunch of times doesn’t make it a fact. What’s illogical is trying to use Scripture to “invalidate” Scripture.

Oh, its not illogical to do that at all. It makes the best sense. Though do not get confused by it. There are two sides to it. One side is how a god letting itself be crucified is not a sacrifice. The other side is how Bible itself completely invalidates the reason for that "sacrifice" by itself. It's not just me saying that it's a fact. It's people's failure to address any of the arguments that make it a fact.