What Is ISLAM?

[Infidel144]

"We" comes from Arabic language where one uses it for denoting respect.

Source that it is used for denoting respect.

[basics]

[QUOTE=conon394;16050170]Not in the OT he is not in fact only in the the well worked over NT. What you really are likely citing is a bit of Polytheism that nobody expunged from the OT and serves the NT nicely.

conon394,

Sorry ole buddie but you are quite wrong. The Old Testament has plenty about Jesus beginning even at creation. Who walked with Adam in the garden? Who had a meeting with Abraham? Who wrestled with Jacob? Didn't David refer to seeing one Lord talking to another Lord or my Lord as he put it? Who did Daniel and his companions see in the lion's den? Who's Light was it that lit the world before the sun, moon and stars were made and will do again in the new heaven and earth?

[PointOfViewGun]

That's exactly what it means. Sin is breaking the law; righteousness is keeping it. How can you be a keeper of the law if you break it? Imagine a criminal brought before a judge: "I've only committed a handful of murders, so I'm pretty law-abiding overall. Why, sometimes I even go whole years without murdering anyone."
If you think someone can be guilty of lying, greed, intemperance, adultery and irreligion and still be a righteous person, then you have a very low standard of righteousness. God has a much higher standard.
Every religion in the world teaches some form of inherent or works-based righteousness. Christianity alone recognizes the reality - and gravity - of God's holiness and man's sinfulness. God is perfectly just and no lawbreaker will escape his wrath. Since all have sinned and broken the law, no one will ever be justified before God on account of their own righteousness. It's only Christ's perfect righteousness, imputed to us through faith, that enables us to be united to God.

You're setting up a faulty premise of absoluteness to justify Jesus' non-sacrifice based on the Bible. You can very well be a keeper of the law if you broke it in the past. Humans are capable of righteous and good deeds despite any sins from their past. For the afterlife, it's on Allah to judge which part weighs more. In many cases, an irreligious person is hell of a lot more righteous than those that consider themselves religious. This is not having a low standard of righteousness. It's merely recognizing the reality.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

The price of sin being death how does a sinner get into paradise. If the sinner doesn't die then someone must die for him otherwise he remains a sinner. A sinner's sin must be cleared before entry as the Law establishes and since Allah must stand or fall by the Law who takes their sin away to get entry? In other words their sin must be cleared before entry otherwise Allah and the Law are meaningless.

Concerning Jesus, a prophet of God Who cannot lie, it is well recorded that He died on a cross and three days later His body was not to be found in the grave He was placed in. He appeared to over four hundred people as proof that He was risen so how is that a faulty premise?

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

The price of sin being death how does a sinner get into paradise. If the sinner doesn't die then someone must die for him otherwise he remains a sinner. A sinner's sin must be cleared before entry as the Law establishes and since Allah must stand or fall by the Law who takes their sin away to get entry? In other words their sin must be cleared before entry otherwise Allah and the Law are meaningless.

Concerning Jesus, a prophet of God Who cannot lie, it is well recorded that He died on a cross and three days later His body was not to be found in the grave He was placed in. He appeared to over four hundred people as proof that He was risen so how is that a faulty premise?

Who says the price of sin is death? Clue: not Allah.

What's faulty with Jesus' sacrifice that it was no sacrifice. Giving away something that you have the power to replicate or take back is no sacrifice.

[Infidel144]

" Quran 49:13
O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous1 of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Aware."

You haven't answered, " who is we?" Who is the " we " who have created you from male and female? I mean that in Christianity God said, " Let us make man in our image " because God is a Triune God yet as Allah is one where does the " we " come in?

Some better verses for this are:
9.31, 23.14, 33.43, 33.56, 38.75, 46.31, 48.9, 70.40 and 112.1.

[basics]

Who says the price of sin is death? Clue: not Allah.
What's faulty with Jesus' sacrifice that it was no sacrifice. Giving away something that you have the power to replicate or take back is no sacrifice.

PointOfViewGun,

God said to Adam and Eve that if they ate of that certain fruit they would die. When they ate of it and were discovered God put a curse on them and all their offspring meaning that every person from that point on who was ever to live carried the curse of sin. So their sin was disobedience as well as disbelief in the word of God meaning that even Muslims are sinners starting with Mohammed. Way back in the garden God made a promise that a " seed " would come to contend with Satan and sin for a certain people whose sin would be washed away in the eyes of God. The prophets down through time also left clues or statements about the " seed " Whom we found out to be Jesus Christ. In other words Jesus Christ was the One promised.

Now since no-one who is a sinner can enter heaven it follows that this sin in their nature had to be changed why? Because the price of sin being death not one person could ever get there if he or she remained in sin. In other words sin had to be disposed of whilst that person was still alive. Who then could do that? Not man or woman born of a sinner. So, the Son of God took up union with the egg of a virgin, overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, so that He could in becoming a man meet the requirements of both the Law and God the Father concerning sin. He would die in the place of all the sinners that God had given Him to save, ordained before the worlds were made. So Jesus Christ is the only way a sinner washed by His blood can enter heaven.

So Mohammed, living at a time where he was surrounded by Jews and Christians saw an opportunity for a piece of the action. He persuaded others that he had a visitation from an angel telling him that he was a prophet and so another false religion was begun just as predicted by Jesus Christ Himself. The biggest difference between Mohammed's methods as opposed to the methods of Jesus Christ was that Mohammed broke God's Law by the use of the sword to achieve his objectives whereas Jesus Christ never did. It he had loved the Lord his God with all his heart, soul and mind he couldn't possibly have butchered his way around the lands he conquered.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

God said to Adam and Eve that if they ate of that certain fruit they would die. When they ate of it and were discovered God put a curse on them and all their offspring meaning that every person from that point on who was ever to live carried the curse of sin. So their sin was disobedience as well as disbelief in the word of God meaning that even Muslims are sinners starting with Mohammed. Way back in the garden God made a promise that a " seed " would come to contend with Satan and sin for a certain people whose sin would be washed away in the eyes of God. The prophets down through time also left clues or statements about the " seed " Whom we found out to be Jesus Christ. In other words Jesus Christ was the One promised.

Now since no-one who is a sinner can enter heaven it follows that this sin in their nature had to be changed why? Because the price of sin being death not one person could ever get there if he or she remained in sin. In other words sin had to be disposed of whilst that person was still alive. Who then could do that? Not man or woman born of a sinner. So, the Son of God took up union with the egg of a virgin, overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, so that He could in becoming a man meet the requirements of both the Law and God the Father concerning sin. He would die in the place of all the sinners that God had given Him to save, ordained before the worlds were made. So Jesus Christ is the only way a sinner washed by His blood can enter heaven.

So Mohammed, living at a time where he was surrounded by Jews and Christians saw an opportunity for a piece of the action. He persuaded others that he had a visitation from an angel telling him that he was a prophet and so another false religion was begun just as predicted by Jesus Christ Himself. The biggest difference between Mohammed's methods as opposed to the methods of Jesus Christ was that Mohammed broke God's Law by the use of the sword to achieve his objectives whereas Jesus Christ never did. It he had loved the Lord his God with all his heart, soul and mind he couldn't possibly have butchered his way around the lands he conquered.

This doesn't really address what you quoted there. However, since Islam doesn't see Jesus as god itself and the whole sacrifice fallacy doesn't exist in Quran there is nothing to try to make up an explanation about that.

[conon394]

PointOfViewGun,

God said to Adam and Eve that if they ate of that certain fruit they would die. When they ate of it and were discovered God put a curse on them and all their offspring meaning that every person from that point on who was ever to live carried the curse of sin. So their sin was disobedience as well as disbelief in the word of God meaning that even Muslims are sinners starting with Mohammed. Way back in the garden God made a promise that a " seed " would come to contend with Satan and sin for a certain people whose sin would be washed away in the eyes of God. The prophets down through time also left clues or statements about the " seed " Whom we found out to be Jesus Christ. In other words Jesus Christ was the One promised.

Now since no-one who is a sinner can enter heaven it follows that this sin in their nature had to be changed why? Because the price of sin being death not one person could ever get there if he or she remained in sin. In other words sin had to be disposed of whilst that person was still alive. Who then could do that? Not man or woman born of a sinner. So, the Son of God took up union with the egg of a virgin, overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, so that He could in becoming a man meet the requirements of both the Law and God the Father concerning sin. He would die in the place of all the sinners that God had given Him to save, ordained before the worlds were made. So Jesus Christ is the only way a sinner washed by His blood can enter heaven.

So Mohammed, living at a time where he was surrounded by Jews and Christians saw an opportunity for a piece of the action. He persuaded others that he had a visitation from an angel telling him that he was a prophet and so another false religion was begun just as predicted by Jesus Christ Himself. The biggest difference between Mohammed's methods as opposed to the methods of Jesus Christ was that Mohammed broke God's Law by the use of the sword to achieve his objectives whereas Jesus Christ never did. It he had loved the Lord his God with all his heart, soul and mind he couldn't possibly have butchered his way around the lands he conquered.

Of course the more simple option was to just punish Adam and Eve and not apply blood attainder to everything (like some toddler breaking toys in a fit). Thus God could just lay some laws and judge everyone as thay arrived.

[PointOfViewGun]

Of course the more simple option was to just punish Adam and Eve and not apply blood attainder to everything (like some toddler breaking toys in a fit). Thus God could just lay some laws and judge everyone as thay arrived.

This original sin idea does not exist in the Quran. Hence, the verses stress deeds of a person for judgment.

[conon394]

Yes and in a sense the same point that Pelagius made as a christian, but Augustine saw he got curb stomped... In some ways it one of those points where most modern Christians should really call themselves Paulian/Augustinians and not Christians.

[basics]

Yes and in a sense the same point that Pelagius made as a christian, but Augustine saw he got curb stomped... In some ways it one of those points where most modern Christians should really call themselves Paulian/Augustinians and not Christians.

conon394,

There are many who thought themselves to be Christian yet weren't and many today thinking the same. A man must be born again of the Spirit of God to be a Christian and therefore adhere to the Word of God as God has had written.

[conon394]

There are many who thought themselves to be Christian yet weren't and many today thinking the same. A man must be born again of the Spirit of God to be a Christian and therefore adhere to the Word of God as God has had written.

Your Paul via Augustine and Calvin is but one line of opinions. That is not how a lot of other Christians saw it or see it...

[basics]

conon394,

The thing is that Calvin does not disagree with Paul as far as I am aware. As for Augustine I'm afraid I don't know anything about him. The Bible is quite sufficient for me.

[conon394]

The thing is that Calvin does not disagree with Paul as far as I am aware. As for Augustine I'm afraid I don't know anything about him. The Bible is quite sufficient for me.

Augustine is the vital link between Paul and Calvin you really should know of him. I am tad shocked the three are the reason you understand the bible as you do. So I take it never read Pelagius? You really need to stop watching YouTube and actually read the early church fathers.

[basics]

conon394,

I sat in a little Baptist church for a dare and what that Pastor said pierced me to the quick showing me how far I was from God. It was then I opened my Bible and when dreams and visions that led to my conversion began. I didn't have YouTube but I soon found a bookshop with the writings of John Metcalfe which I bought. Metcalfe confirmed what the Bible was telling me and since then I have enjoyed the preaching of RC Sproul, Alistair Begg, JI Packer and many others. For me the only really important thing to believe and remember is that Jesus Christ laid down His life in my place so that what separated me from God is now gone.

[conon394]

John Metcalfe

...

Is not exactly a particularly good thinker on the Bible or Christianity. From a quick search you surround yourself with those who have the exact views you do. Even Jesus went into the desert for 40 days. You should read the early church fathers excised from your particular version of Christianity. They were as earnest and honest as yourself in considering themselves christian.

[PointOfViewGun]

conon394,

I sat in a little Baptist church for a dare and what that Pastor said pierced me to the quick showing me how far I was from God. It was then I opened my Bible and when dreams and visions that led to my conversion began. I didn't have YouTube but I soon found a bookshop with the writings of John Metcalfe which I bought. Metcalfe confirmed what the Bible was telling me and since then I have enjoyed the preaching of RC Sproul, Alistair Begg, JI Packer and many others. For me the only really important thing to believe and remember is that Jesus Christ laid down His life in my place so that what separated me from God is now gone.

Jesus didn't lay his life for you though. Facts of the matter:
Jesus had the power to stop the Romans crucifying him at every single moment.
Jesus, given that you believe he was also god, had the power to rewind all that happened.
Jesus, given that you believe he was also god, had the power to come back to Earth and act like nothing happened.
There is absolutely nothing Jesus sacrificed for you.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Jesus didn't lay his life for you though. Facts of the matter:
Jesus had the power to stop the Romans crucifying him at every single moment.
Jesus, given that you believe he was also god, had the power to rewind all that happened.
Jesus, given that you believe he was also god, had the power to come back to Earth and act like nothing happened.
There is absolutely nothing Jesus sacrificed for you.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at but your premises suggest the opposite: Jesus, as God, had the power to do all those things, and yet didn’t. He chose to become man, to live, and to die a sacrificial death.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

[PointOfViewGun]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at but your premises suggest the opposite: Jesus, as God, had the power to do all those things, and yet didn’t. He chose to become man, to live, and to die a sacrificial death.

Yet, he didn't die as he could not die in the sense of the word. He had the power to come and come back he did. Sacrifice is something given that can't be taken back. A billionaire giving his fancy car is not exactly a sacrifice.