Page 18 of 18 FirstFirst ... 89101112131415161718
Results 341 to 357 of 357

Thread: What Is ISLAM?

  1. #341
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    God created us for His good pleasure for as we read in the first chapter of Genesis our worlds as well as space didn't exist. " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth...." Why? Because we are part of a story, the greatest story ever told, and He is the main Character, the Hero, of it, us being merely bit part players. So, the story begins with two people living in an idyllic environment wherein they were duped into disbelieving and thus disobeying God. The whole nature of things changed and nature became its own worst enemy and God our Creator the biggest enemy of all. Adam and Eve didn't die in the garden. They were put out never to return and so when death called they were living in a fallen world. Before that happened however God foretold of a " seed " of the woman Eve coming to contend for the souls of men with the devil whom the serpent represented and so it was as time went on the original prophecy from God was backed up by all the Prophets of God until the event took place.

  2. #342

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    God created us for His good pleasure for as we read in the first chapter of Genesis our worlds as well as space didn't exist. " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth...." Why? Because we are part of a story, the greatest story ever told, and He is the main Character, the Hero, of it, us being merely bit part players. So, the story begins with two people living in an idyllic environment wherein they were duped into disbelieving and thus disobeying God. The whole nature of things changed and nature became its own worst enemy and God our Creator the biggest enemy of all. Adam and Eve didn't die in the garden. They were put out never to return and so when death called they were living in a fallen world. Before that happened however God foretold of a " seed " of the woman Eve coming to contend for the souls of men with the devil whom the serpent represented and so it was as time went on the original prophecy from God was backed up by all the Prophets of God until the event took place.
    I understand that preaching is soothing given that you are failing to come up with a proper response, but it serves no purpose. I have no interest in your interpretation. You made a claim. I asked you to back it up. So, now god lied to Adam and Eve when he said that they'd die if they ate the fruit? You're saying that they didn't die in the garden. More importantly though, when Adam and Eve died on Earth, where did they go?
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #343
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    They are in the pit alongside Mohammed waiting to be raised and sent into Hell. So, here's a question for you. We know that Jesus was announced in the garden and the Prophetic word of His coming backed up by 4,000 odd years of announcements to Israel by these men of God, where are the announcements of Mohammed being the final prophet? Not a thing in the Old Testament about him yet plenty in the New Testament about him being just another false prophet. Of course you don't want to see my interpretation because like Adam and Eve in the garden you have been led down the proverbial garden path. The Koran was built on no history as was the Bible. The Bible is built on the before and after of Jesus Christ and so not surprisingly it is Jesus Who is coming back to judge the world, not Mohammed, no not even Allah. Does that not make you sit up and think? One last question. Tell me how you are getting into paradise?

  4. #344

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    They are in the pit alongside Mohammed waiting to be raised and sent into Hell. So, here's a question for you. We know that Jesus was announced in the garden and the Prophetic word of His coming backed up by 4,000 odd years of announcements to Israel by these men of God, where are the announcements of Mohammed being the final prophet? Not a thing in the Old Testament about him yet plenty in the New Testament about him being just another false prophet. Of course you don't want to see my interpretation because like Adam and Eve in the garden you have been led down the proverbial garden path. The Koran was built on no history as was the Bible. The Bible is built on the before and after of Jesus Christ and so not surprisingly it is Jesus Who is coming back to judge the world, not Mohammed, no not even Allah. Does that not make you sit up and think? One last question. Tell me how you are getting into paradise?
    So, where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve are sent to Hell?

    But thats only regarding one question I asked. You seem to have ignored the rest. You can't ask me to respond to questions when you religiously ignore mine, can you? So, come on. Give it an other try:

    So, now god lied to Adam and Eve when he said that they'd die if they ate the fruit? You're saying that they didn't die in the garden.
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #345
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    Since there is no record of Adam and Eve being among the first saints, Abel being the first, or even saints at all, then the only other place they could be is on the journey to Hell. Your questions I cited as being answered in Genesis, but if you have any others, ask away? God didn't lie to them about death because they did die but outside the garden where they bore children. Had they been struck down immediately they had sinned, we wouldn't be here.

  6. #346

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,
    Since there is no record of Adam and Eve being among the first saints, Abel being the first, or even saints at all, then the only other place they could be is on the journey to Hell. Your questions I cited as being answered in Genesis, but if you have any others, ask away? God didn't lie to them about death because they did die but outside the garden where they bore children. Had they been struck down immediately they had sinned, we wouldn't be here.
    So, you do not know where they are and assuming that a lack of mention of their whereabouts is evidence that they're in Hell. Thats one hell of a big assumption. Quite blasphemous to put words in god's mouth.

    Quran is not ambiguous on this. The story of Adam and Eve is one of error and repentance as they seek forgiveness and they receive it. Hence, in Islam, they are the first prophets and mentioned with respect.
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #347
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    I have no doubts that they are in Sheol awaiting the final judgement, why? If Adam and Eve were saved from the curse of sin their names would be first rather than righteous Abel in the list of saints, yet they are not mentioned at all as being in that selected company. Now there is a reason for that which even Christians get wrong. Some believe that because God gave them a skin covering to cover their shame that amounted to them being saved but alas further instruction from the Scriptures tell us that the skins of animals save no-one. Animal sacrifice is no more than a shadow of the sacrifice Jesus Christ would make on the cross where His blood was the only untainted blood that could wash away sin, or pay the price for it. In other words all the listed saints believed God's word that the " seed " of the woman Eve would come to pay that price for their sin.

    So, the Koran is quite wrong because nowhere is it written that Adam and Eve repented nor does it say that they were prophets in any shape or form. Oh, I'm quite sure they regretted not obeying God and sure they related why to their offspring they were out in a fallen world. Further as repentance is a gift from God as part of the process of coming to regeneration not one word on that either. That's Islam's major problem in that it teaches that fallen men and women have to work for their salvation yet the Bible, the Old Covenant, some four thousand years older tells us that man is absolutely dead in his sin and so cannot work at his own salvation. Every aspect of salvation is in the working of God in His Three Persons. The Father draws them to Jesus on that cross. The Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin whilst breaking down their hearts for repentance to begin and the blood of Christ takes away from the Father His wrath from off them thus leading to regeneration. That's what is taught in the Scriptures and what Islam seeks to destroy.

    Getting back to Adam and Eve it is written that the Jews believed the dead went down into the pit or Sheol on dying and we read that Jesus on His death went down there too but was only there for three days until resurrected. In His ministry Jesus described Hell as being adjacent to Heaven and if so it must be a different place from Sheol. So, when we look at Heaven as being a place with no darkness then Hell being adjacent to it must be dark less too and explains why those in it are tortured by the fervent and never-ending heat having no respite at all forever. Therefore when the general resurrection of the dead comes and the church is taken up to be with Him, those coming up from Sheol will be sent into Hell, the Hell that Jesus described over which He will Personally oversee from the Heavenly side. It means that there will never be a time when both sides cannot see Him, some to rejoice and the others filled with regret.

    There is nothing I have written that takes away any glory that belongs to God and so cannot be blasphemous, why? Because it is all there, the evidence is all there in the Bible, should anyone care to look, not some book that has been tacked on to some of its writings written some four and a half thousand years later.

  8. #348

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I have no doubts that they are in Sheol awaiting the final judgement, why? If Adam and Eve were saved from the curse of sin their names would be first rather than righteous Abel in the list of saints, yet they are not mentioned at all as being in that selected company. Now there is a reason for that which even Christians get wrong. Some believe that because God gave them a skin covering to cover their shame that amounted to them being saved but alas further instruction from the Scriptures tell us that the skins of animals save no-one. Animal sacrifice is no more than a shadow of the sacrifice Jesus Christ would make on the cross where His blood was the only untainted blood that could wash away sin, or pay the price for it. In other words all the listed saints believed God's word that the " seed " of the woman Eve would come to pay that price for their sin.

    So, the Koran is quite wrong because nowhere is it written that Adam and Eve repented nor does it say that they were prophets in any shape or form. Oh, I'm quite sure they regretted not obeying God and sure they related why to their offspring they were out in a fallen world. Further as repentance is a gift from God as part of the process of coming to regeneration not one word on that either. That's Islam's major problem in that it teaches that fallen men and women have to work for their salvation yet the Bible, the Old Covenant, some four thousand years older tells us that man is absolutely dead in his sin and so cannot work at his own salvation. Every aspect of salvation is in the working of God in His Three Persons. The Father draws them to Jesus on that cross. The Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin whilst breaking down their hearts for repentance to begin and the blood of Christ takes away from the Father His wrath from off them thus leading to regeneration. That's what is taught in the Scriptures and what Islam seeks to destroy.

    Getting back to Adam and Eve it is written that the Jews believed the dead went down into the pit or Sheol on dying and we read that Jesus on His death went down there too but was only there for three days until resurrected. In His ministry Jesus described Hell as being adjacent to Heaven and if so it must be a different place from Sheol. So, when we look at Heaven as being a place with no darkness then Hell being adjacent to it must be dark less too and explains why those in it are tortured by the fervent and never-ending heat having no respite at all forever. Therefore when the general resurrection of the dead comes and the church is taken up to be with Him, those coming up from Sheol will be sent into Hell, the Hell that Jesus described over which He will Personally oversee from the Heavenly side. It means that there will never be a time when both sides cannot see Him, some to rejoice and the others filled with regret.

    There is nothing I have written that takes away any glory that belongs to God and so cannot be blasphemous, why? Because it is all there, the evidence is all there in the Bible, should anyone care to look, not some book that has been tacked on to some of its writings written some four and a half thousand years later.
    All you state is your assumptions clouded in preaching. That's beyond problematic as you keep putting words in god's mouth. Quran does state that they repented. It's one thing to make stuff up about the Bible but it's even worse that you make stuff up about the Quran.

    Quran 20:121-122
    And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred. Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him].
    Seeing having a path to salvation through repentance and good works as a problem is just extremely disturbing. Not much I can say against such a mentality.
    The Armenian Issue

  9. #349
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,280

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    PointOfViewGun,

    I'm sorry if you see it as preaching for I see it as your only way to get to Heaven. I see that you don't really understand the Bible at all for if you studied it you would find that God always gives a double answer or snippets as the story therein proceeds. That is why the context and flow are so important if one is to grasp the truths therein. So no, I am not putting words into God's mouth as He has already put them in writing for us to find. Examples are in the Prophets words themselves as on the one hand they are speaking for God in the immediate whilst at the same time giving portions about Christ sacrifice within these words. In other words everything in it points to Jesus Christ coming into the world to pay the price of sin for all them that God the Father chose for Him before He even made the worlds. As Peter says, it is not for private interpretation rather the insight given by the Holy Ghost that the truth of Scripture be understood.

    It is written that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, nothing else. What is the Gospel? It is the good news that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came into the world to pay the only price for sin by shedding His blood and dying to satisfy God's Law regarding sin. As proof of what He did He was resurrected after three days in the grave to show Himself to over four hundred people before ascending back up to Heaven wherein He awaits His time of return to finalise all things. Sinning men cannot repent of themselves, not enough to satisfy God, why? Because sin is so deep in man that he is said to be dead in his sin, meaning that no amount of good works can overcome that nor satisfy God. Of course men will feel sorry for some of the things they have done but it doesn't last long and so the power of sin makes them sin again and again. It is only when the Father draws men to Jesus to reveal Him that the Holy Ghost breaks down his hardened heart and the gift of repentance is applied by God to regenerate his heart, be born again. This should disturb you because it is what is written and it is the only way into Heaven. To Islam all this is just nonsense and so it goes down the road as all other religions do that works by man is the key, why? Because they are still as dead in their sin as they became the day Adam and Eve were persuaded that God lied.

  10. #350

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    The word 'Islam', in Arabic, means submission and peace. As a term, 'Islam' refers to the Message which was revealed to Muhammad صَلَّی اللہُ تَعَالٰی عَلَیْہِ وَاٰلِہٖ وَسَلَّمَ by Allah عَزَّوَجَلَّ , the One Creator, and a 'Muslim' is the one who believes in whatever is revealed to Muhammad صَلَّی اللہُ تَعَالٰی عَلَیْہِ وَاٰلِہٖ وَسَلَّمَ by Allah عَزَّوَجَلَّ . In contrast to other religions, Islam has not only taught us the worships, rather it gives us a unique and comprehensive ideology that guides the human being in each and every step of their life. Islam sets its rules and limits and it is based on a creed or doctrine which is not manmade but is God-gifted. The creed or doctrine of Islam is the threshold for entrance into Islam. Without true aqeedah in his heart, a person cannot attain the real fruits of Islam. The creed or doctrine of Islam provides easy, correct, and comprehensive answers to the questions related to the existence of a man and the universe around it. It tells about the beginning as well as ending of this universe and also tells the reason for the existence of man. In this way, the Islamic creed solves the basic mystery of the nature of the existence of man and guides the man in properly spending his life. The main reason for the success of the Islamic creed by its implementation on a large scale, it provides a practical implementation of its rules and there are not only theoretical ways of its explanation.
    Islam provides a complete and comprehensive system for the guidance of human beings to spend their life. In the life of a person, there are three types of relationships and Islam guides us for all these three categories. These three types of relationships involve:


    1. The relationship between man and his creator
    2. The relationship with himself such as his personal affairs
    3. The relationship with his society

  11. #351
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,277

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Islam (Sunni)* assume the following to be true:

    *Naturally there are plenty of branches within Islam, I get that but I won’t bother with them other branches here, as they are just too small to reasonably matter on general terms.
    The Shia-branch is no exception in these regards not even mustering 10% the global total of Muhammedan faithfuls.



    • Mohammed is truthful…
    • Mohammed is chosen and tasked by god…
    • Mohammed is able to succesfully to convey the intentions and will of god - as supposedly explained to him by archangel Gabriel/jibril (a presumed legit agent of god, created by the same – this according to Mohammed. Yes, that’s the very same Mohammed…).
    • Mohammed is the supreme example for ALL male mortals to follow in life, whenever possible…
    • God exists, is omnipotent, allknowing and yet still employs supernatural agents (in his/its service) as intermediates.
    • There is a strange, scary and distant world - hell - in which lots of hellfire is located, and this special fire burns for all eternity. This is the place all mortals end up in if they propely displeased or abandon god (and by extension Mohammed) somehow…
    • God is however benevolent/kind to ALL humans whom are faithful to the ideas, ideals and rules - conveyed by Mohammed - supposedly on the behalf of god. All others - as any and all disbelievers - get to dwell in the hellfire-world, eventually.
    • The Koran is a product of god – and it is eternal, unchangeable and divine in nature – all the same Mohammed is somehow needed to present it to the world (in the first place).
    • That the Koran is first written in Arabic and this is intrinsically significant and has special purpose in some hidden and sacred sense, and this is crucial for understanding its ideas, ideals and rules properly.
    • If you question or challenge ANYTHING of the above nine assumptions you should be (righteously) severely punished for your lack of faith. Either by god, his agents or his mortal faithful's acting out in his name (or everything combined in various stages).


    Does any of these notions sound rational and convincing to you folks? …I am totally leaning towards Islam is a lie -
    just looking at these ten (for Islam) essential and unavoidable assumptions alone.

    - A

  12. #352
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    12,887

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    While I strongly disagree with Islam, especially on monotheism, I can respect it as a historical force for a few things:


    1. In its prime, it was remarkably tolerant compared to the other major monotheistic religion (Christianity). It only really started to sharply pivot to a fundamentalist and militant phase in the 1700s and afterwards, during a period of political decline among the major Islamic nations (Ottoman, Persian,and Mughal empires). I have optimistic hope that it can pivot once again to a moderate path, with the right incentives.
    2. Its intellectual tradition enabled the survival and innovation of Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy, which was reintroduced to Europe and allowed the West to rediscover Plato, Aristotle, and eventually Neoplatonism. Which is the philosophical basis of my religion.
    3. Its mystical tradition enabled the same to occur to Hermeticism, and many innovations on occult practice, which upon its reintroduction to Europe in the Renaissance. Which is broadly the practical basis of my religion.

  13. #353

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    Its intellectual tradition enabled the survival and innovation of Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy, which was reintroduced to Europe and allowed the West to rediscover Plato, Aristotle, and eventually Neoplatonism.
    This is an often repeated myth based on some exaggerated claims about the influence of Latin translations of Averroes (Ibn Rushd).

    In actuality:

    While the influence of classical pagan philosophy was crucial for the development of medieval philosophy, it is likewise crucial that until the twelfth and thirteenth centuries almost all the original Greek texts were lost to the Latin West, so that they exerted their influence only indirectly. They were “lost” not in the sense that the texts were simply unavailable but in the sense that very few people could read them, since they were written in the wrong language. As the Western Roman Empire gradually disintegrated, the knowledge of Greek all but disappeared. Boethius (c. 480–545/526) was still fluent in Greek, but he recognized the need for translations even in his own day; after him Greek was effectively a dead language in the West. There were still some pockets of Greek literacy, especially around such figures as Isidore of Seville and the Venerable Bede, preserving and transmitting ideas of ancient learning, but making little impact on medieval philosophical thought.

    In the case of Plato, the Middle Ages for all practical purposes had only the first part of the Timaeus (to 53c), hardly a typical Platonic dialogue, in a translation and commentary by a certain Calcidius (or Chalcidius)… This state of affairs lasted until the Renaissance, when Marsilio Ficino (1433–99) translated and commented on the complete works of Plato.

    For Aristotle, the Middle Ages were in somewhat better shape. Marius Victorinus translated the Categories and On Interpretation. A little over a century later, the logical works in general, except perhaps for the Posterior Analytics, were translated by Boethius, c. 510–12, but only his translations of the Categories and On Interpretation ever got into general circulation before the twelfth century. The rest of Aristotle was eventually translated into Latin, but only much later, from about the middle of the twelfth century.

    Still, while it is important to emphasize this absence of primary texts of Greek philosophy in the Latin Middle Ages, it is also important to recognize that the medievals knew a good deal about Greek philosophy anyway. They got their information from (1) some of the Latin patristic authors, like Tertullian, Ambrose, and Boethius, who wrote before the knowledge of Greek effectively disappeared in the West, and who often discuss classical Greek doctrines in some detail; and (2) certain Latin pagan authors such as Cicero and Seneca, who give us (and gave the medievals) a great deal of information about Greek philosophy.

    During the first part of the Middle Ages, Platonic and neo-Platonic influences dominated philosophical thinking. “Plato himself does not appear at all, but Platonism is everywhere,” as Gilson has said. (Gilson [1955], p. 144.) This situation prevailed until the recovery of Aristotle in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.
    Medieval Philosophy: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Archive

    In summary, these works were never lost in Western Europe. It’s just that most people couldn’t read Greek. This was eventually remedied when they were translated into Latin, without any involvement of Islamic scholars. The texts likewise never disappeared from the Greek speaking/Eastern Roman influenced world. That Medieval Islamic and Jewish scholars were also interested in these works was a somewhat distinct phenomenon, although there was some crosspollination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #354
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,308

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    While I strongly disagree with Islam, especially on monotheism, I can respect it as a historical force for a few things:


    1. In its prime, it was remarkably tolerant compared to the other major monotheistic religion (Christianity). It only really started to sharply pivot to a fundamentalist and militant phase in the 1700s and afterwards, during a period of political decline among the major Islamic nations (Ottoman, Persian,and Mughal empires). I have optimistic hope that it can pivot once again to a moderate path, with the right incentives.
    2. Its intellectual tradition enabled the survival and innovation of Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy, which was reintroduced to Europe and allowed the West to rediscover Plato, Aristotle, and eventually Neoplatonism. Which is the philosophical basis of my religion.
    3. Its mystical tradition enabled the same to occur to Hermeticism, and many innovations on occult practice, which upon its reintroduction to Europe in the Renaissance. Which is broadly the practical basis of my religion.
    All of these accounts of Islam having preserved ancient European knowledge to be mysteriously accessed by later European ages without having caused an enlightenment movement within Islamic societies is of course partially myth and partially wishful thinking. Islam itself did, of course, not accomplish anything or create anything. Those very few Muslim "scholars", Al-Khwarizmi, Avicenna, and Al-Farabi and ibn Rushd, distributed over 3 centuries, lived under constant threat from their islamic rulers. Islam itself was never a contributor but always a hindrance. The Middle East was never a part of European medieval pre-modernity and obviously not a part of modernity itself.
    Last edited by swabian; September 14, 2024 at 08:40 PM.

  15. #355
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,362

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This is an often repeated myth based on some exaggerated claims about the influence of Latin translations of Averroes (Ibn Rushd).

    In actuality:

    Medieval Philosophy: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Archive

    In summary, these works were never lost in Western Europe. It’s just that most people couldn’t read Greek. This was eventually remedied when they were translated into Latin, without any involvement of Islamic scholars. The texts likewise never disappeared from the Greek speaking/Eastern Roman influenced world. That Medieval Islamic and Jewish scholars were also interested in these works was a somewhat distinct phenomenon, although there was some crosspollination.
    I have read in "The Byzantine Empire" by some fella called Browning a list of the known East Roman teachers who fled to northern Italy in the decades before the renaissance mysteriously appeared there.

    I imagine there were scholars who crossed the frontier between Christendom and Islam, but we know definitely there were a body of Hellenic scholars bringing the tradition direct from the source to the barbarous west from the failing eastern Christian world.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  16. #356

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Early Islam played its part on keeping the interest in the classicals alive, early Islam was highly tolerant (needed to atract believers, being strict wouldn't work), had a flourishing scholar community and so on.. those were different times.
    But this starts to decline in 1200s, Mongol sack of Bahgdad being the trigger, invasion of Persia, etc.

    Main problem being, the main cause of the end of Islam's golden age was not Europe, neither the Crusades (Saladin made this being a cause impossible), neither the Byzantines (Ottoman Empire actually occupied same geographical places of Eastern Rome), but the Mongols from the East, and in modern Islamist narratives they always pretend that such isn't the case.

    Islam also lost its apetite for innovation in thinking it had in the 700s-900s, today being anchored to Dogmas becomes a political and identitical issue.

    So going by Islam history it wasn't the West fault for the decline of their peak Caliphs in 700-1200s, but rather a force from the East; and this is never adressed in their speeches today.

    The West always carrying the blame becomes.. too cliche.
    Last edited by fkizz; October 23, 2024 at 03:54 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  17. #357

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Early Islam played its part on keeping the interest in the classicals alive, early Islam was highly tolerant (needed to atract believers, being strict wouldn't work), had a flourishing scholar community and so on.. those were different times.
    But this starts to decline in 1200s, Mongol sack of Bahgdad being the trigger, invasion of Persia, etc.
    Main problem being, the main cause of the end of Islam's golden age was not Europe, neither the Crusades (Saladin made this being a cause impossible), neither the Byzantines (Ottoman Empire actually occupied same geographical places of Eastern Rome), but the Mongols from the East, and in modern Islamist narratives they always pretend that such isn't the case.
    Islam also lost its apetite for innovation in thinking it had in the 700s-900s, today being anchored to Dogmas becomes a political and identitical issue.
    So going by Islam history it wasn't the West fault for the decline of their peak Caliphs in 700-1200s, but rather a force from the East; and this is never adressed in their speeches today.
    The West always carrying the blame becomes.. too cliche.
    Yes and no. It's wrong to have a singular source for decline, whether it be the West or the Mongols. Technologically, the setbacks did indeed start centuries ago but tolerance has a lot to do with West backing Wahabism. Not long ago:

    Globalizing Homophobia
    Curiously, not too long ago the “Orient” still served as a projection screen for the homoerotic wish-fantasies of the European bohème. Countless writers and artists such as André Gide, Oscar Wilde, Edward M. Forster, and Jean Genet made pilgrimages in the 19th and 20th centuries from homophobic Europe to Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, and various other Arab countries,10 where homosexual sex was not only met without any discrimination or subcultural ghettoization whatsoever, but rather, additionally as a result of rigid segregation of the sexes, seemed to be available on every corner. For example, in a letter to his friend Louis Bouilhet dated 15 January 1850, Gustave Flaubert notes concerning male-male “sodomy”: “Here it is quite accepted [. . .] and it is spoken of at table in the hotel. Sometimes you do a bit of denying, and then everybody teases you and you end up confessing.”11
    The Armenian Issue

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •