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Thread: What Is ISLAM?

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    Default What Is ISLAM?

    In the name of Allah the most Gracious the most Merciful

    Although 24% of the world's population is Muslim, Islam is the least known religion in the world.There may be several reasons for this: the weakness of Muslims, the lack of media tools and global tribunes, the severe censorship of the world's media giants (almost all of which are controlled by the Zionists), and so on.
    There are also many attacks and misunderstandings against Islam. There are various reasons for this: the rapid growth of Islam in Europe and the United States, and as a result, people will turn to Islamist politicians, and this is very dangerous for the current regimes.
    Kindness and love and humanity and mutual respect and self-devotion for each other that exist in Islam for the Western society, which is completely involved in the thinking of secularism, liberalism and individualism, is a remarkable and interesting point that has made the tendencies towards Islam more than before.
    Unlike religions such as Buddhism, Christianity, and Hinduism, which accept oppression, Islam does not accept oppression and do not allow the abuse of superpowers.
    The most important issue that has become the pretext for Islamophobia in the West today is the creation of terrorist groups by the United States and its allies in the region that carry the name of Islam.But let's look together, away from attacks and propaganda. What is Islam as a religion that the world's leaders are terrified of spreading?

    What is Islam?


    God in His mercy has sent messengers to guide us, in different communities, in different times. Each prophet came with guidance and miracles that were relevant for his time and for his people, but the message was the same: That there is only one God and worship is for him alone.
    This “Islam” is the same as the religions brought by all the prophets of God. Islam is the same as the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all) but with more details. God has in His Grace, addressed this issue to man in His final revelation, the Noble Quran.
    Consequently, God has sent the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as His last messenger to mankind. This implies that he must come with a complete and clear guidance, and a clear proof, for all humanity and all times till the Last Day. Otherwise the message is void. Also, the message must be confirming the previous messengers of before. The revelation, guidance, and miracle he received is the Quran.
    Now, let’s see more about this last religion, Islam.

    Islam (/ˈɪslɑːm/; Arabic: اسلام) is a verbal noun originating from the root “S-L-m” which forms a large class of words mostly relating to concepts of wholeness, safeness and peace. It is an Abrahamic religion articulated by the Quran. It is revealed to the prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the last prophet of God. The adherent of Islam is called Muslim. Today, Muslims are known in 2 main groups: Shia and Sunni.
    In Islam God is called Allah. Other non-Arab Muslims might use different names as much as Allah, for instance “Tanri” in Turkish, “Khodā” in Persian or Ḵẖudā in Urdu.
    In Islam, Muslims are not expected to visualize God. God is described and referred to by certain names or attributes, the most common being “Al-Rahman”, meaning “The Compassionate” and “Al-Rahim”, meaning “The Merciful”.
    In Islam, Allah is viewed as a personal god who responds whenever a person in need or distress calls him. There are no intermediaries, such as clergy, to contact God who states, “…And [through the embracing knowledge] we are nearer to him [Human] than his jugular vein.” (50:16)
    Also, the creation of everything in the universe was brought into being by Allah’s sheer command, “…Be, and it comes to existence,”
    General Principles of Islam
    In Islam there are 5 main principles are called Osul-e-Din (the principles of the religion):

    • Tawhid (Shia and Sunni belief)
    • Nabuwwah (Shia and Sunni belief)
    • Ma’ad (Shia and Sunni belief)
    • Adalah (just Shia Belief)
    • Imamate (just Shia Belief)

    Tawhid (Oneness)
    In Islam, Tawhid means to assert the unity of God, it is not just unity of Allah Almighty but also Uniqueness, as defined in Quran Surah 112(Al-Ikhlas), He is not born of anyone nor gave birth to any one, nor is any one like Him. The opposite of Tawhid is “Shirk”, which means “Association” or “Partnership” in Arabic. In Muslims view, polytheism and idolatry is known as “Shirk”.
    Tawhid is the most important principle that each Muslim must believe it. Also, Tawhid is mentioned in the other Abrahamic religions. (Uniqueness and unity of God is distorted in Christian religion)

    Nabuwwah (Prophet Hood)
    “Nabuwwah” means “Prophet Hood”. It comes from the word “Nabi” that is mentioned in Old Testament too, as the meaning of God’s messenger. Nabi denotes that God has appointed Prophets and Messengers to teach mankind the religion. Religion is the perfect system of how to live in “peace” or “submission to God”. Prophets are Messengers which are appointed by God to bring the message of God to people and spread that message while the Imam (leader) is appointed by God to protect that message since ordinary people will fail to do so.

    If people were left with the message alone, the true message could not survive long and would have undergone changes. Imams were therefore appointed to take care of the message and prevent people from going astray after the last prophet.

    Nabi receives inspiration in three ways. Sometimes, God reveals directly to his heart. Sometimes, God reveals facts on something such as mountain or tree (like Moses who Allah spoke to him by a tree). The third way of revelation is sending messages to the Nabi (prophet) by an angel.

    Ma’ad (The Day of Resurrection and judgment)

    Yaum al-Qiyamah or “Day of the Resurrection“, also known as “Day of the Account”, “Day of the Gathering”, and the “Great Announcement”.

    Ma’ad is a fundamental tenet of faith in Islam. After the ending of this world, Allah will raise mankind for Judgment. The trials and tribulations of Resurrection Day are detailed in the Quran.

    In Surah al-Zalzalah describes this as, “then he who has done a particle-weight of good shall see it, [and shall receive the reward for it] (7). And he who has done a particle-weight of evil shall see it [and shall receive the recompense for it] (8).” (99:7,8)

    Adalah (justice)

    Adalah is described in Shia theology as one of the principles of Islam. It comes from the root “A-D-l” as the meaning of justice. Adalah is a quality of Allah that includes following meanings:

    It means everything Allah does is based on benefit and wisdom
    It means all human are the same before Allah and they are equal, no one is superior than the others unless by virtue (piety)
    It means Justice, i.e. Allah never ignores even the smallest positive or negative deeds of mankind
    It means Allah has created every creature in right position, by materials that exactly is needed for that creature and finally, there are an equality and appropriateness through all creatures and phenomena in the whole universe
    It means the creation of the whole universe is based on a purpose and nothing is aimless or vain.

    Imamate (Leadership)

    As it is mentioned before, Imam should continue the revolution of the prophet and be leader after the prophet. Islam prescribes very high qualification for a divine leader. He should be the most knowledgeable, the wisest, and the most gallant of all people. He should also be immune from every kind of sin, mistake and error. So, Imams are determined by God, before and their names and their signs is revealed to the prophet. This is just described in Shia theology as another principles of Islam.

    Other important issues in Islam:

    Testimony (Shahadah)


    The Shahadah (شهاده), which is the basic creed of Islam that must be recited with the specific statement:

    اَشهدُ انْ لا اِلٰهَ الا الله و اَشهدُ انَّ محمّداً رسولُ الله

    “‘ash’hadu ‘an-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa ‘ash’hadu ‘anna muhammadan rasūlu-llāh“, “I testify that there are no deities other than Allah alone and I testify that Muhammad is his Messenger.”

    This testament is a foundation for all other beliefs and practices in Islam. Muslims must repeat the shahadah in prayer, and non-Muslims wishing to convert to Islam are required to recite the creed.

    Prayer (Salah/صلاه)

    Daily prayers, called Ṣalah or Ṣalat in Arabic, Namaz (نماز) in Persian, must be performed five times a day. Salat is intended to focus the mind on God, and is seen as a personal communication with him that expresses gratitude and worship. Salat is compulsory but flexibility in the specifics is allowed depending on circumstances. The prayers are recited in the Arabic language, and consist of verses from the Quran. The prayers are done with the chest in direction of the Qibla (Kaba, Mecca).

    A Mosque is a place of worship for Muslims, who often refer to it by its Arabic name, “Masjid”. The word “Mosque” in English refers to all types of buildings dedicated to Islamic worship, although there is a distinction in Arabic between the smaller, privately owned mosque and the larger, “collective mosque” (Masjid jāmi). Although the primary purpose of the mosque is to serve as a place of prayer, it is also important to the Muslim community as a place to meet and study. Al-Masjid al-Nabawi the Prophet’s Mosque in Medina was also a place of refuge for the poor. Modern mosques have evolved greatly from the early designs of the 7th century, and contain a variety of architectural elements such as Minarets.

    Fasting

    Fasting, (Arabic: صوم‎ ṣawm), Rouzeh/روزه in Persian, avoiding from food and drink (among other things) must be performed from dawn to dusk during the month of Ramadan (Lunar month). The fast is to encourage a feeling of nearness to Allah, and during it Muslims should express their gratitude for and dependence on him, atone for their past sins, and think of the needy. Sawm is not obligatory for several groups for whom it would constitute an undue burden. For others, flexibility is allowed depending on circumstances, but missed fasts usually must be made up as quickly as possible.

    Alms-giving

    “Zakat” (Arabic: زكاة‎ ) is giving a fixed portion of accumulated wealth by those who can afford it to help the poor or needy and for those employed to collect Zakat; also, for bringing hearts together, freeing captives, for those in debt (or bonded labor) and for the (stranded) traveler. It is considered a religious obligation that the well-off owe to the needy because their wealth is seen as a “trust from God’s bounty”. The Quran and the Hadith(the quotes of Prophets and Imams) also urge a Muslim to give even more as an act of voluntary alms-giving called Sadaqah (صدقه).

    Hajj Pilgrimage

    The pilgrimage, called the Hajj (Arabic: حج‎) has to be done during the Islamic month of Dhu al-Hijjah in the city of Mecca. Every able-bodied Muslim who can afford it must make the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in his or her lifetime. Rituals of the Hajj include: spending a day and a night in the tents in the desert plain of Mena, then a day in the desert plain of Arafat praying and worshiping Allah, following the footsteps of Prophet Abraham (PBUH). Then spending a night out in the open, sleeping on the desert sand in the desert plain of Muzdalifah, then moving to Jamarat, symbolically stoning the Devil ( the symbol of Devil is Obelisk) recounting Prophet Abraham’s actions. Then going to Mecca and walking seven times around Kaba which was built as a place of worship by Prophet Abraham (PBUH), Then walking seven times between Mount Safa and Mount Marwah recounting the steps of Prophet Abraham’s wife, while she was looking for water for her son Ismael in the desert, before Mecca developed into a settlement. The purpose of all is first to be far from all material relations and just think about God, and second to remind Abraham’s sufferings about establishing the religion of God and be thankful that we are not from idolatries.

    Jihad
    Jihad means “to strive or struggle in the way of Allah”. Depending on the object being a visible enemy, the devil, and aspects of one’s own self (such as sinful desires), different categories of jihad are defined. Jihad, when used without any qualifier, is understood in its military aspect. Jihad also refers to one’s striving to attain religious and moral perfection. Some Muslim, especially Shia, distinguish between the “greater jihad”, which pertains to spiritual self-perfection, and the “lesser jihad”, defined as warfare.

    Jihad is the only form of warfare permissible in Islamic law and declared against illegal works, terrorists, criminal groups, rebels, and leaders or states that oppress innocent people.

    Etiquette and diet

    Many practices fall in the category of Adaab (behavior) and Islamic dietary laws, or Islamic etiquette. This includes greeting others with “Salam” or “as-salamu `alaykum” (“peace be on to you”), saying Bismillah (“in the name of Allah”) before meals and etc... . Islamic hygienic practices mainly fall into the category of personal cleanliness and health. Circumcision of male offspring is also practiced in Islam. Islamic burial rituals include “funeral prayer” over the bathed and enshrouded dead body, and burying it in a grave.

    In Islam, guests are known as the friends of Allah and Muslims are wanted to respect their guests and welcoming them as best as possible. Islam wants human to be like brothers and sisters so that help each other, be well-behaved, respect to each other especially to the elders, women and children.

    There are some restrictions for Muslims foods include not having pork products, blood, carrion, and alcohol. All meat must come from an herbivorous animal slaughtered in the name of Allah. Permissible Food for Muslims is known as “Halal” food.

    Family life

    The basic unit of Islamic society is the family, and Islam defines the obligations and legal rights of family members. The father is seen as financially responsible for his family, and is obliged to cater for their well-being. The division of inheritance is specified in the Quran, which states that most of it is to pass to the immediate family, while a portion is set aside for the payment of debts and the making of bequests. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract which consists of an offer and acceptance between two qualified parties in the presence of two witnesses. The groom is required to pay a bridal gift (Mahr) to the bride, as stipulated in the contract.

    In Islam, Mother has the main role of children breeding and training, that is why Allah gave a mother mercy and patience (two of his qualities). A Muslim woman should be able to bring honest and nice children up who have advantages for their society, those children can make a family in the future and as a result, we will have an excellent society.

    Women in Islam

    Status of woman in Islam is incomparable to the other religions or ideologies: In Arabia or some other countries, before Islam, men used to bury newborn alive girls. Women had no rights whatsoever and were treated no better than a commodity. Not only were they enslaved, but they couldn’t also be inherited as a possession. They were subordinate to their fathers, brothers, and husbands.

    In Hindu scriptures, the description of a good wife is as follows: “a woman, whose mind, speech and body are kept in subjection, acquires high renown in this world, and, in the next, the same abode with her husband”. It was believed that a woman should cremate when her husband was dead as she was alive.

    In Egypt, people were putting a bowl of honey just near the corps of dead men body, not women dead body because they believed just the soul of men would return. Women were not allowed to touch holy books or texts but they were used for scarifying.

    In Athens, women were not better off than either the Hindu or the Roman women. Athenian women were always minors, subject to some male – to their father, to their brother, or to some of their male kin. In Roman law a woman was even in historic times completely dependent. If married she and her property passed into the power of her husband. The wife was the purchased property of her husband, and like a slave acquired only for his benefit. A woman could not exercise any civil or public office or could not be a witness, surety, tutor, or curator; she could not adopt or be adopted, or make will or contract.

    The woman in Judaism was in the rank of a servant. The father had the right to sell his underage daughter. She had no right to inherit if her father had no male offspring. It is stated in the Old Testament (the distorted Torah) that the woman should not inherit as long as there are males in the family; rather, she is part of the inheritance if her husband dies, and the nearest male relative to the husband would inherit her.

    Woman was believed to be the source of evil and sin. They considered her impure especially on the days she was menstruating and whoever touched her during this time became impure for seven days. They blamed her for the expulsion of Adam from paradise, but in Quran, Allah says, Satan fooled both Adam and Eve together and never knows Eve as the reason of expulsion of Adam.

    There was widespread Christian belief that the woman had no soul. In 586 A.D, the Council of Macon was held to decide whether the woman was a body that had a base soul or that she did not have a “saved” soul. They made an exception to Mary (PBUH), may God exalt her mention, because she is the mother of Prophet Jesus (PBUH).

    Paul declared that the woman is the source of sin, the basis of every evil and the fountainhead of every abominable act. St. Bonaventure said to his disciples, “When you see a woman, you should not think that you saw a human being or even a beastly being. Rather, you saw the devil in person.”

    Jews and Christians believe Eva fooled Adam and she was the reason of quitting from heaven, but in Quran it is mentioned that Devil (Satan) fooled both of them and Eva never was the cause of fall from heaven.

    In the pre-Islamic period, the Arabs regarded the woman as a piece of property or as rubbish. When the husband died, his guardian would cover the wife of the deceased with his garment and she could not remarry. They used to prevent her from remarrying until the young matrimonial guardian would grow up and then decide whether he wished to marry her or give her in marriage to anyone else and take the dowry as long as she was not his mother. If she was his mother, he would not marry her. The woman had no rights and she did not inherit anything. She was considered a source of humiliation and shame.

    Islam prohibited all this and allocated for her a specific share in inheritance. Allah the Almighty Says: “there is a share for men and a share for women from what is left by parents and their relatives as heritage whether the property be small or large, it is a decreed share” (4:7)

    Moreover, the Arabs in the pre-Islamic era did not only deprive the woman of inheritance but also deprived her of life itself. When some of them begot a female child, they would dig a hole and throw her into it and heap dust over her. What is worse and more disgusting is that once, a father was away travelling when his wife gave birth. When he came back, he took his grown up daughter from her mother, dug a hole while she removed the dust from his clothes, and then, took her by surprise, pushed her into the hole, afterward, heaped dust over her while she was screaming for pity. But his heart did not soften for her. This situation is described in the Quran when Allah the Almighty says: “and when the female infant, buried alive, shall be questioned (8). For what sin was she put to death? (9)” (81:8,9)
    Women in the pre-Islamic era used to expose their adornments and entice men. Noble verses of the Quran were revealed to prohibit Muslim women from imitating the disbelieving women just as Muslim men were prohibited before them from imitating the disbelieving men. Allah the Almighty Says: “And stay very often in your houses; do not exhibit your beauty and ornaments as the manner of the women of the time of ignorance; establish prayer, and pay alms and obey Allah and his messenger. Verily, Allah’s will is to remove away impurity from you, the people of the messenger’s household and to purify you thoroughly (33).” (33:33)

    The Quran dedicates numerous verses to Muslim women, their role, duties and rights. In Quran, woman is named as the relaxation for man, as Allah says: “and of Allah’s signs of power is that he created mates for you from your own kind, [i.e., human being] to seek peace and happiness from one another and he caused love and kindness between you; and in all these there are signs of Allah’s power and divine wisdom for men of thought” (30:21).

    Allah wants men to care about women, love them, speak them softly, not to strict or hurt them because woman is divine trust. Any agression towards women is prohibited in Islam.

    Right to vote, have been given to the women In the United State, by 1920, but the right of voting was given to the women in Islam more around 550 A.D. Islam knows the woman as the base of family and because of that the great responsibility of upbringing is taken on woman shoulders, i.e. motherhood.

    Allah gave to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), a daughter as the only child, Lady Fatima (PBUH), when woman was known as nothing among Arabian people. Islam encourages women to educate and take part in social activities. In addition Allah put 12 Imams in his daughter generation and it also proves the importance of woman in Islam.

    In Islam, a Muslim woman can only have sex after her “Nikah” (lawful marriage contract), with one Muslim man; sex is permitted to her only with her husband. There are a lot of rules about sex in Islam; also importance of woman’s satisfaction is mentioned. Islam admonishes Muslim women to dress modestly in garments that do not reveal the extremities to any man other than their husband, father, certain male family members, small children and male slaves free of sexual needs. The Quran specify limitations of covering by clothes, however, do not specify particulars, style or design of the clothing and other dress forms; clothing has varied widely across Islamic regions. Styles have changed over the centuries.

    In Islam, there is no difference between men and women’s relationship to God; they receive identical rewards and punishments for their conduct. Many classical Islamic scholars, supported female leadership. In early Islamic history, some women took part in political activities.

    Women have played an integral part in the development and spiritual life of Islam since the inception of Islamic civilization in the seventh century A.D. Lady Khadijah (PBUH), a businesswoman who became the Prophet Muhammad’s wife, was also the first Muslim woman. There have been a large number of female saints throughout the Islamic world.

    There will be series of discussions in this subject...

    For further studies in any related topic please visit our website:
    Islam, Peaceful Religion

    I also recommend to use this website as a reference for any topic that is not mentioned in our website:
    WikiShia

    A video clip about our 12 Imams (with English subtitle):
    https://www.aparat.com/v/YOgSV/
    Last edited by Fardin; April 10, 2020 at 02:59 AM.
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  2. #2
    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    If Islam is indeed as good and peaceful as you paint it here, then many of its practitioners must be awfully bad at following its precepts. I don't judge a religion by quotations from its scripture, but by the actions of its followers. It's easy to tear out phrases and paint a picture of peace and harmony. Communists can do this too. In practice, however, Islam is rotten to the core and in need of serious reform.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Thread closed until further notice for insufficient material in the OP subject to discussion/debate.
    Thread re-opened following OP update.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 09, 2020 at 02:34 PM.
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    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    I mean if we;re being honest Diamat, Christianity went through reforms, and its been watered down to the point where its basically just Jesus(modern day capitalist jesus that is), Kumbayah, and give to charity. Even fundamentalists don't even know whats actually in the bible unless they are using it to discredit someone else's views.

    So maybe its best that Islam hasn't gone through a reform. At the very least you can't argue that their religion has vastly changed since the days of the Abbasid caliphate.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    I mean if we;re being honest Diamat, Christianity went through reforms, and its been watered down to the point where its basically just Jesus(modern day capitalist jesus that is), Kumbayah, and give to charity. Even fundamentalists don't even know whats actually in the bible unless they are using it to discredit someone else's views.

    So maybe its best that Islam hasn't gone through a reform. At the very least you can't argue that their religion has vastly changed since the days of the Abbasid caliphate.
    I'd argue that it's for the worst that Islam hasn't gone through such reforms. It's a religion designed for a bunch of 7th century arabic barbarians, so society that sticks to it will be no better than that.

  6. #6

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    It's easy to tear out phrases and paint a picture of peace and harmony. Communists can do this too. In practice, however, Islam is rotten to the core and in need of serious reform.
    What practice(s) make Islam rotten to the core?

  7. #7
    Adamat's Avatar Invertebrate
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    OP gives no actual point to discuss, but I'll bite.

    Spoiler for Graph

    See graph above. Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband? Surely, if they were truly seen as equal, such a notion would be scoffed at.
    #JusticeForCookie #JusticeForCal #JusticeForAkar #JusticeForAthelchan

  8. #8
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    I mean if we;re being honest Diamat, Christianity went through reforms, and its been watered down to the point where its basically just Jesus(modern day capitalist jesus that is), Kumbayah, and give to charity. Even fundamentalists don't even know whats actually in the bible unless they are using it to discredit someone else's views.
    So maybe its best that Islam hasn't gone through a reform. At the very least you can't argue that their religion has vastly changed since the days of the Abbasid caliphate.
    Neither Islam nor Christianity are monolithic entities, though, so the reform argument doesn't hold much water, in my opinion. Blasphemy laws, for example, are not as rare as usually imagined and, at least until 2019, I can think of two or more members of the European Union, which actively punished anyone insulting Christianity. Overall, I would say that religious tolerance and secularism are more influenced by the particular conditions of each society than the random dogma it may adhere to. Ultimately, attributing any difference solely to reform is an unsatisfying answer, because it poses another question that leaves the crux of the matter unaddressed: Namely what sparked the reform and the softening of the religion's harshest elements? The principal factor, in my opinion, is urbanisation and industrialisation, which results into improved literacy, the marginalisation of the clergy's ideological, social, political and financial role, as well as the creation of new social relations, which render the previous ones, largely shaped and dominated by the church, obsolete.

    Western Europe, predominantly Christian, progressed in this regard considerably earlier than the Middle East, Northern Africa and Central Asia, regions where Islam reigned supreme, which is why there's the misleading impression that Christianity is more amenable to reform. The situation, however, is radically different in South America, Eastern Europe and sub-Saharan Africa, which didn't enjoy the fruits of a modern economy and society as quickly as France or Germany. Nowadays, Salafist extremists gain a lot of publicity lately, thanks to the terrorist attacks committed by al-Qaeda and its affiliates, but their prospects look rather dim, in the long term. Religiosity is on decline, not only in Turkey, but also in the rest of the Near East. Yemen is the exception, but the reliability of the data is probably affected by the civil war, while the collapse of the quality of life also encourages a return to mysticism.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This demographic change may seem paradoxical, given how rural and ill-educated conservative populations, whose women have not integrated completely into the economy, have more children than average, but the concepts of their offspring is influenced not only by their parents, but also by their environment. Of course, Islam has some differences to Christianity, especially in what concerns its political undertones. Because even its Prophet managed to create and govern a stable state, Islam includes a more political message, which provides makes it more capable of appearing as a contemporary political alternative than Christianity, even today. However, the aforementioned statistical trends demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that Islam has been in the same course of moderation and secularisation together with Christianity and any other religion. Social upheaval and financial disasters can only delay the inevitable. Ironically, the society of the Islamic Republic of Iran is more secular today, under a theocratic, authoritarian democracy, than under the Shah's superficially westernised absolute monarchy, because the Iran in the 21st century is remarkably less poor and more literate, prosperous and urbanised than her imperial self of the '70s.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    OP gives no actual point to discuss, but I'll bite.
    There is plenty in there.

    Spoiler for Graph

    See graph above. Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband? Surely, if they were truly seen as equal, such a notion would be scoffed at.
    That graph seems to be missing a country, that may be important to the OP.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    It's missing a few, but those are most likely to be in high 90's. Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia...
    Last edited by Sar1n; April 09, 2020 at 05:54 PM. Reason: typo

  11. #11
    Adamat's Avatar Invertebrate
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    There is plenty in there.
    There is plenty of text in there, but very little incentive for discussion. I could post a poem about how great my grandmom is, but that wouldn't be a basis for discussion either. If anything, it resembles a recruitment post more than a basis for discussion.

    That graph seems to be missing a country, that may be important to the OP.
    We're discussing islam, not Iran. Regardless of what the stats are for Iran (and I'll tell you right now that it's nowhere near 0), an enormous portion of muslims do hold that belief. Do you have an answer to my question?
    #JusticeForCookie #JusticeForCal #JusticeForAkar #JusticeForAthelchan

  12. #12

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    There is plenty of text in there, but very little incentive for discussion. I could post a poem about how great my grandmom is, but that wouldn't be a basis for discussion either. If anything, it resembles a recruitment post more than a basis for discussion.
    Very little incentive for you.



    We're discussing islam, not Iran. Regardless of what the stats are for Iran (and I'll tell you right now that it's nowhere near 0), an enormous portion of muslims do hold that belief.
    And? Iran is part of the Dar al Islam. Can you tell me what it is in Iran?
    Do you have an answer to my question?
    Well, at the point of reading it, I'm not sure why my answer would be particularly relevant.
    But if you want a start I would suggest reading An Nisa, in particular v34 (i.e. Quran 4:34).

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    It's missing a few, but those are most likely to be in high 90's. Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia...
    I noticed, but the lack of Iran jumped out more, considering the op.
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 09, 2020 at 06:25 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    OP gives no actual point to discuss, but I'll bite.
    See graph above. Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband? Surely, if they were truly seen as equal, such a notion would be scoffed at.
    Let's figure that out by making a comparison. You ask why if in core Islam regards men and women equally Muslims around the world do not follow that ideology. Now, lets consider Christians. The Bible tells women to obey their husbands, along with many other passages that describes women as second class in many ways. If we made a similar poll for Christians around the world, do you think we would see similar results? If not, how come?
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Very little incentive for you.

    And? Iran is part of the Dar al Islam. Can you tell me what it is in Iran?

    Well, at the point of reading it, I'm not sure why my answer would be particularly relevant.
    But if you want a start I would suggest reading An Nisa, in particular v34 (i.e. Quran 4:34).
    You're dodging the question. Again, even if the number were 0 in Iran, which it isn't, I've provided evidence that women and men are not regarded as equals by many (a majority, even) muslims, which is in direct contradiction to OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4:34
    Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth.
    If anything, this only confirms my suspicion that Islam is inherently unequal: your own text states that men are inherently better than women, and that women should rely on men to provide for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Let's figure that out by making a comparison. You ask why if in core Islam regards men and women equally Muslims around the world do not follow that ideology. Now, lets consider Christians. The Bible tells women to obey their husbands, along with many other passages that describes women as second class in many ways. If we made a similar poll for Christians around the world, do you think we would see similar results? If not, how come?
    First off, this is a whataboutism. What christians think is irrelevant to whether muslims regard women and men as equals, which you posit is true and I doubt. I don't even know why you want to involve christians actually, I'm not interested in defending the bible. Second, if you're insinuating that other factors and not Islam are responsible for inequality in the muslim world, the burden of proof is on you. Third, you're dangerously close to a no true scotsman fallacy here: if so many muslims apparently have no regard for what you suggest the Quran says on equality, either you're wrong or a majority is.
    Last edited by Adamat; April 09, 2020 at 06:48 PM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    You're dodging the question.
    What question, exactly, am I dodging?
    Again, even if the number were 0 in Iran, which it isn't, I've provided evidence that women and men are not regarded as equals by many (a majority, even) muslims, which is in direct contradiction to OP.
    If you don't know the answer, would it not be simpler to just say you don't know, rather than trying to tell me how you have evidenced something that I have not even challenged?

    If anything, this only confirms my suspicion that Islam is inherently unequal: your own text states that men are inherently better than women, and that women should rely on men to provide for them.
    Well, I thought I had dodged your question...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    (I wonder how long I will continue to be amused by the premise Adamat is working under.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What question, exactly, am I dodging?

    If you don't know the answer, would it not be simpler to just say you don't know, rather than trying to tell me how you have evidenced something that I have not even challenged?
    I don't know, but as I've said three times now, it's entirely irrelevant to the question I asked what the number for Iran is, whether it be 100%, 0%, or somewhere in between.

    Well, I thought I had dodged your question...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    (I wonder how long I will continue to be amused by the premise Adamat is working under.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband?
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Given Islam's history and current state I think the burden of proof weights heavily on those trying to claim women are equal under Islam

    Here are some examples of the kind of things Women deal with in Islam.

    Women are arrested for not wearing Hijabs. This has happened dozens of times, I've chosen just one article as an example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rrest-29-women

    The women's world chess champion was expelled from the team for refusing to play with a Hijab on.

    https://women.ncr-iran.org/2020/01/0...-forced-hijab/

    How about the prevalence of female genital mutilation in predominantly Islamic countries?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...n-where-happen

    Let's not forget the prevalence of child marriages in Iran, which are condoned in the Quran.

    https://observers.france24.com/en/20...old-bride-iran

    Or the fact that you can marry your adopted daughters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pted-daughters

    Let's not act like Islam is a religion or culture that respects women, that's naive. If you want to try to make that sort of claim, it's imperative that you provide actual evidence.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    I don't know,
    Excellent. See, very simple.
    but as I've said three times now, it's entirely irrelevant to the question I asked what the number for Iran is, whether it be 100%, 0%, or somewhere in between.
    Excellent. If you go back and actually look, you might, maybe, notice that I made an observation about the graph you provided. I did not question it, challenge it say it was wrong or right etc.
    Now, you assert, the OP is about Islam, which, on the face, it is. Past experience tells me that, should Fardin, the OP, continue and join in, it will become less about Islam generally, and more about a particular form of Islam. Hence why the lack of Iran in the graph jumped out.

    Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband?
    And I provided an 'answer', after which you accused me of dodging your question, even though you said my 'answer' confirmed your suspicion. Though a simple thank you might have sufficed, or even no response would have been appropriate. You could, perhaps, gain even more insight by reading associated tafsir and/or hadith.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Should I continue to be amused?


    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Given Islam's history and current state <snip>
    And here I thought It was explained that there was nothing sufficient in the post to discuss...
    (and while the focus by others is on women, I have not even started.)
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 09, 2020 at 07:26 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    should Fardin, the OP, continue and join in, it will become less about Islam generally, and more about a particular form of Islam. Hence why the lack of Iran in the graph jumped out.
    We'll cross that bridge if we get to it, I was under the impression that you and I were having a discussion also.
    And I provided an 'answer', after which you accused me of dodging your question, even though you said my 'answer' confirmed your suspicion. Though a simple thank you might have sufficed, or even no response would have been appropriate. You could, perhaps, gain even more insight by reading associated tafsir and/or hadith.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Should I continue to be amused?


    Edit:

    And here I thought It was explained that there was nothing in this thread to discuss...
    (and while the focus is on women, I have not even started.
    Since you've (still!) not provided me with your answer but only pointed me to a verse that confirms what I've said, I'll have to conclude that you agree with me.

    If you don't, I invite you to formulate an actual reply with substance rather than trying to send me on some kind of weird easter hunt. I know it's the season, but please.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    We'll cross that bridge if we get to it, I was under the impression that you and I were having a discussion also.
    Well, no, we were not. Or at least not what you seem to think.
    We might have had a discussion on your first claim, though it would have not lasted long, as it would have bored me.
    The only reason this portion (your women tangent) is continuing is your implied, but false, premise is amusing me.

    Since you've (still!) not provided me with your answer but only pointed me to a verse that confirms what I've said, I'll have to conclude that you agree with me.
    Conclude whatever you want.
    If you don't, I invite you to formulate an actual reply with substance rather than trying to send me on some kind of weird easter hunt. I know it's the season, but please.
    My answer to your question ("Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband?") would still be the same.
    An Nisa (and associated tafsir and hadith, probably adding in other ayat). But I will reserve that for if or when I decide to address that in the OP myself.
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 09, 2020 at 07:50 PM.

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