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Thread: What Is ISLAM?

  1. #21

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fardin View Post
    In the name of Allah the most Gracious the most Merciful

    Although 24% of the world's population is Muslim, Islam is the least known religious religion in the world.There may be several reasons for this: the weakness of Muslims, the lack of media tools and global tribunes, the severe censorship of the world's media giants (almost all of which are controlled by the Zionists), and so on.
    There are also many attacks and misunderstandings against Islam. There are various reasons for this: the rapid growth of Islam in Europe and the United States, and as a result, people will turn to Islamist politicians, and this is very dangerous for the current regimes.
    The world did not not care about Islam or what Muslims did until Muslims began carrying out widespread terrorist attacks and killing non Muslims in the nams of Islam.

    Attacks on Muslims are only a tiny fraction of the attacks by Muslims on others. The few attacks on mosques by individuals acting alone are far less than the organized attacks by Muslims on churches such as the Sri Lanka Easter Church bombings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019...aster_bombings.

    Maybe if Muslims such as yourself displayed a fraction of the concern about attacks made by Muslims on others as you do for those against Muslims, you would have fewer attacks against Muslims. While 2 wrongs do not make a right, it shouldn't surprise anyone that after decades of Muslim attacks, non Muslims have gotten fed upnand responded in kind.

    When you see the long list of Muslim attacks such as https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/a...n-attacks.aspx, it is a wonder there are not more attacks against Muslims. Give me an example of hundreds of Muslim school girls being kidnapped like the Muslims do to others https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chib...rls_kidnapping.



    Kindness and love and humanity and mutual respect and self-devotion for each other that exist in Islam for the Western society, which is completely involved in the thinking of secularism, liberalism and individualism, is a remarkable and interesting point that has made the tendencies towards Islam more than before.
    Unlike religions such as Buddhism, Christianity, and Hinduism, which accept oppression, Islam does not accept oppression and do not allow the abuse of superpowers..
    The truth is exactly the opposite. Of the 13 states with death penalties against apostasy, all are Muslim. And Pakistan applies its blasphemy laws with denalty mostly against non Muslims, like Asia Babi, who spent 8 years in prison under a death sentence before she was released under international pressure, and had to flee Pakistan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia...blasphemy_case

    And there is the case of a 16 year old girl executed after being accused of adultery. Naturally, the man wasn't executed only the woman demonstrating the bigotry and unkindness of Islam.toward women - Iran is an islamic state operating under the principles of Islam.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm [/quote]

    The most important issue that has become the pretext for Islamophobia in the West today is the creation of terrorist groups by the United States and its allies in the region that carry the name of Islam.But let's look together, away from attacks and propaganda. What is Islam as a religion that the world's leaders are terrified of spreading?[B][SIZE=3]
    It is terrorist acts like 911, Boston Marathon bombing, Orlando Night Club shooting, and ISIS rape and killing in Iraq and Syria which is why people are concerned. They don't want a system imposed on them that condones the killing of 16 year old girls for the crime of adultery which is what Islam.promises. The religion as that is in Iran.
    ?

  2. #22

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    First off, this is a whataboutism. What christians think is irrelevant to whether muslims regard women and men as equals, which you posit is true and I doubt. I don't even know why you want to involve christians actually, I'm not interested in defending the bible. Second, if you're insinuating that other factors and not Islam are responsible for inequality in the muslim world, the burden of proof is on you. Third, you're dangerously close to a no true scotsman fallacy here: if so many muslims apparently have no regard for what you suggest the Quran says on equality, either you're wrong or a majority is.
    It's interesting to say the burden of proof is on me while refusing to discuss the factors that play a role here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The world did not not care about Islam or what Muslims did until Muslims began carrying out widespread terrorist attacks and killing non Muslims in the nams of Islam.
    Attacks on Muslims are only a tiny fraction of the attacks by Muslims on others. The few attacks on mosques by individuals acting alone are far less than the organized attacks by Muslims on churches such as the Sri Lanka Easter Church bombingshttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019...aster_bombings.
    Maybe if Muslims such as yourself displayed a fraction of the concern about attacks made by Muslims on others as you do for those against Muslims, you would have fewer attacks against Muslims. While 2 wrongs do not make a right, it shouldn't surprise anyone that after decades of Muslim attacks, non Muslims have gotten fed upnand responded in kind.
    When you see the long list of Muslim attacks such as https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/a...n-attacks.aspx, it is a wonder there are not more attacks against Muslims. Give me an example of hundreds of Muslim school girls being kidnapped like the Muslims do to others https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chib...rls_kidnapping.
    There is little in the post you responded to that warrants this pissing contest. Not that what you post is anywhere near accurate. You're not really using any data while making a claim about how attacks from Muslims on non-Muslims is a tiny fraction of attacks on Muslims by non-Muslims. It's safe to assume you're ignoring cases from Myanmar or Burma, heck, you wouldn't even think of mentioning invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; April 10, 2020 at 04:48 AM.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    I'll try to answer almost all of your questions and comments but if the answer was in delay, I apologize beforehand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamat View Post
    If Islam is indeed as good and peaceful as you paint it here, then many of its practitioners must be awfully bad at following its precepts. I don't judge a religion by quotations from its scripture, but by the actions of its followers. It's easy to tear out phrases and paint a picture of peace and harmony. Communists can do this too. In practice, however, Islam is rotten to the core and in need of serious reform.
    Let's try with a simple example that might be interesting, I am a very powerful and rich person and you are for example a advisor of mine, I tell you I want to destroy a political party's public image, What would you suggest me?
    Maybe finding some gray person in that political party and bribe him/her to do some super bad things in public and boooom! We did it as simple as that!
    Maybe thinking and studying in more aspects would enlight us!

    I would be grateful to know which part of its core is rotten and what's the proof?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    I mean if we;re being honest Diamat, Christianity went through reforms, and its been watered down to the point where its basically just Jesus(modern day capitalist jesus that is), Kumbayah, and give to charity. Even fundamentalists don't even know whats actually in the bible unless they are using it to discredit someone else's views.

    So maybe its best that Islam hasn't gone through a reform. At the very least you can't argue that their religion has vastly changed since the days of the Abbasid caliphate.
    Islam had some reformations too, Marja' Taghlid as the highest religious authority does that. In some cases like organ transplants, we need some new reforms because there is an obligation in Islam to respect the dead people and not to harm their body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I'd argue that it's for the worst that Islam hasn't gone through such reforms. It's a religion designed for a bunch of 7th century arabic barbarians, so society that sticks to it will be no better than that.
    So I think you got you answer from the previous answer of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    OP gives no actual point to discuss, but I'll bite.
    It was quite lots of points to discuss but thanks for the bite!
    See graph above. Why is it that, in a religion that OP frames as being empowering for women, an overwhelming amount of muslims think that a wife must always obey her husband? Surely, if they were truly seen as equal, such a notion would be scoffed at.
    We have too many nations, cultures and school of thoughts in this world. Something that you would consider bad somebody else would consider it good, It is called cultural differences. But do not get a misunderstanding from this phrase, killing,raping,thievery,betrayal,lies,domestic violence is bad in every culture and sane school of thoughts.
    What evil thing is in a matter like a wife respecting her husband?

    And about that Graph, How do you know what question they asked their audience and how they asked it? I can ask you a question about a very good thing in a very deceptive way so that you might choose the wrong answer or misunderstand the question at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    It's missing a few, but those are most likely to be in high 90's. Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia...
    Or even they might put the data in that graph just like this!
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  4. #24
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The world did not not care about Islam or what Muslims did until Muslims began carrying out widespread terrorist attacks and killing non Muslims in the nams of Islam.
    That's very debatable, as most terrorists don't leave a posthumous manifesto. The 11/9 attack is one of the rare exceptions and Osama bin Laden had been crystal clear on his motivations for the attack: Zionism, US military presence in Saudi Arabia and human rights abuses in Kashmir, Lebanon, Iraq, Chechnya and elsewhere. His reasoning was purely geopolitical and not religious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Attacks on Muslims are only a tiny fraction of the attacks by Muslims on others. The few attacks on mosques by individuals acting alone are far less than the organized attacks by Muslims on churches such as the Sri Lanka Easter Church bombings
    Nope, the majority of victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims themselves. The casualties of terrorist attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, Somalia and etc. dwarf those of perpetrated against followers of other religions. Islamic terrorism is almost exclusively an inter-communal phenomenon, which only rarely gains an international aspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Maybe if Muslims such as yourself displayed a fraction of the concern about attacks made by Muslims on others as you do for those against Muslims, you would have fewer attacks against Muslims. While 2 wrongs do not make a right, it shouldn't surprise anyone that after decades of Muslim attacks, non Muslims have gotten fed upnand responded in kind.
    Who said these actions were not criticised? There are numerous instances of terrorism being condemned by Muslim institutions, while an absolute majority of the public rejects them wholeheartedly. In fact, according to two separate Gallup polls, residents of Muslim countries and Muslim Americans are much less likely to justify aggression against civilians than the average. In my opinion, the factors that explain this divergence are not related to Islam, but the data still directly contradicts your assertion. Moreover, the entirety of the Muslim is not morally obliged to apologise for every atrocity committed by extremists, as collective responsibility is no longer considered legitimate. It would be the equivalent of expecting Norwegians or army officers to ask for our forgiveness about Breivik and the Rohingya ethnic cleansing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    When you see the long list of Muslim attacks such as, it is a wonder there are not more attacks against Muslims. Give me an example of hundreds of Muslim school girls being kidnapped like the Muslims do to others.
    Sure, it concerns the exact same event, as many of the schoolgirls kidnapped and raped were actually Muslims. Nuance like this is why openly biased sources, like the "religion of peace" lack any sort of credibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    They don't want a system imposed on them that condones the killing of 16 year old girls for the crime of adultery which is what Islam.promises. The religion as that is in Iran.
    No doubt that the adultery laws in Iran are disgusting, but the execution of minors is not allowed in Iran. The punishment of Atefeh Sahaaleh was the result of a mistrial, due to an incompetent/corrupt judge and the prosecution intentionally forging official documents that were later presented as actual evidence.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; April 10, 2020 at 04:51 AM. Reason: Quote fixed.

  5. #25

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fardin View Post
    Although 24% of the world's population is Muslim, Islam is the least known religion in the world.There may be several reasons for this: the weakness of Muslims, the lack of media tools and global tribunes, the severe censorship of the world's media giants (almost all of which are controlled by the Zionists), and so on.
    What are the "world's media giants"? Who is 'severely censoring' these "world media giants"? Define "Zionists" and who are "the Zionists" that control the "world media giants"?
    There are also many attacks and misunderstandings against Islam. There are various reasons for this: the rapid growth of Islam in Europe and the United States, and as a result, people will turn to Islamist politicians, and this is very dangerous for the current regimes.
    Which people are turning to "Islamist politicians"? How is people turning to "Islamist politicians" "very dangerous for the current regimes"?
    Kindness and love and humanity and mutual respect and self-devotion for each other that exist in Islam for the Western society, which is completely involved in the thinking of secularism, liberalism and individualism, is a remarkable and interesting point that has made the tendencies towards Islam more than before.
    Unlike religions such as Buddhism, Christianity, and Hinduism, which accept oppression, Islam does not accept oppression and do not allow the abuse of superpowers.
    Whom does Islam not accept the "oppression" of?
    The most important issue that has become the pretext for Islamophobia in the West today is the creation of terrorist groups by the United States and its allies in the region that carry the name of Islam.But let's look together, away from attacks and propaganda. What is Islam as a religion that the world's leaders are terrified of spreading?
    Which terrorist groups were created by the US and its allies?

  6. #26

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    There is plenty of text in there, but very little incentive for discussion. I could post a poem about how great my grandmom is, but that wouldn't be a basis for discussion either. If anything, it resembles a recruitment post more than a basis for discussion.
    We could've discussed over the poem you mentioned if your grandmom was a well known person like Hillary Clinton!
    Every person has its own point of view, some might see it as a recruitment post or some might see it as an excuse to raise self-information or enlightenment!

    We're discussing islam, not Iran. Regardless of what the stats are for Iran (and I'll tell you right now that it's nowhere near 0), an enormous portion of muslims do hold that belief. Do you have an answer to my question?
    I am mostly talking about Shia Islam and everything I say is based on Shia Islam, And the Capital place of Shia Islam is Iran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Well, at the point of reading it, I'm not sure why my answer would be particularly relevant.
    But if you want a start I would suggest reading An Nisa, in particular v34 (i.e. Quran 4:34).
    I bring you the entire verse:
    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
    "اضربوهن"/"beat them(lightly)" in this verse might come with a misunderstanding that we could beat our wives! But Imam Sadiq (PBUH) says: ... "اضربوهن" in this verse means beating them lightly... which means without causing any bruises or redness of skin.

    In Iran as a Shia ruled country, We have these penalties for domestic violence According to Articles 386 and 387 of the Islamic Penal Code, the perpetrator must be retaliated against if he commits a crime against the members of the body, at the request of the defendant or her guardian, if the conditions for retribution are met.
    The general and specific conditions of retribution according to Articles 301 and 290 of the Islamic Penal Code are as follows:

    A- Retribution is equal to the amount of crime.
    B) Retribution of a healthy member against an unhealthy member.
    C- Retribution of the full member against the incomplete member.
    D- Retribution is not the main member against the non-main member.
    E- The perpetrator has a premeditated crime.
    According to Article 558 et seq. Of the Islamic Penal Code, if any of the general and specific conditions of retribution mentioned above do not exist, the perpetrator will be sentenced to pay diyat (Financial penalty).Therefore, in unintentional crimes against members and intentional crimes in which there is no retribution or retribution is not possible or an agreement has been reached on the diyat, the payment of the diyat is ordered.Multiplication is also said to cause damage to the organs without breaking or bleeding, and can cause bruising, redness, bruising, blackening, and twisting. For each of these cases, the law stipulates that the assailant must pay the beaten one. The diyat for such injuries, which cause skin discoloration, is as follows in the Islamic Penal Code:Blackening of facial skin, full six thousandth of a full diyat, bruising is three thousandths of a full diyat, Redness of the skin, one and a half thousandth of a full diyat Skin discoloration of other organs, as the case may be, half of the above values
    "A full heart has room for everything and an empty heart has room for nothing"
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  7. #27
    Adamat's Avatar Invertebrate
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's interesting to say the burden of proof is on me while refusing to discuss the factors that play a role here.
    I've provided a claim and data from an independent source to back up that claim. You, meanwhile, have done nothing except insinuate that some other unnamed factor is the root cause of the issue. If you want me to discuss "the factors that play a role here", you'll have to tell me what those factors are and what your evidence is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fardin View Post
    We have too many nations, cultures and school of thoughts in this world. Something that you would consider bad somebody else would consider it good, It is called cultural differences. But do not get a misunderstanding from this phrase, killing,raping,thievery,betrayal,lies,domestic violence is bad in every culture and sane school of thoughts.
    What evil thing is in a matter like a wife respecting her husband?
    Ah yes, moving goalposts. What evil thing is in a matter like a wife respecting her husband? None. That wasn't the point under contention, however. You claimed that men and women under Islam are equal, I showed evidence that many millions of muslims expect their women to be submissive to them.

    So, are men and women equal, or are women supposed to obey ("respect", lol) their husbands?

    And about that Graph, How do you know what question they asked their audience and how they asked it? I can ask you a question about a very good thing in a very deceptive way so that you might choose the wrong answer or misunderstand the question at all.

    Or even they might put the data in that graph just like this!
    The graph I posted includes the verbatim wording of the question and the source. If you have reason to doubt the source, I'd like to see proof of that.

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pew-research/
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    In review, Pew Research primarily is a polling and survey outlet that utilizes and publishes their methodology. Unlike many other polling companies, that exclusively cover politics and elections, Pew covers a wide range of topics such as Science, Technology and Religion. Pew never uses loaded language in their headlines and articles such as this: Eastern and Western Europeans Differ on Importance of Religion, Views of Minorities, and Key Social Issues. Further, all information is sourced in detail with methodology explained for each survey. Editorially, there is little to no bias.

    A factual search reveals that Pew Research has never failed a fact check. In fact, Pew information is used by fact checkers to verify data.

    Overall, we rate Pew Research Least Biased and Very High for factual reporting due to excellent sourcing.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    I've provided a claim and data from an independent source to back up that claim. You, meanwhile, have done nothing except insinuate that some other unnamed factor is the root cause of the issue. If you want me to discuss "the factors that play a role here", you'll have to tell me what those factors are and what your evidence is.
    Nope, I don't really have to frame my statement to your liking. I can only assume that you likely realize the wright of what I'm asking which puts wrench in the metaphorical wheel of your simplistic, ignorantly convenient, take on the matter. There is little value in discussing any complex issue in such a fashion. Simply put, you don't want your position to be exposed for the hidden mechanics its constructed on.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope, I don't really have to frame my statement to your liking. I can only assume that you likely realize the wright of what I'm asking which puts wrench in the metaphorical wheel of your simplistic, ignorantly convenient, take on the matter. There is little value in discussing any complex issue in such a fashion. Simply put, you don't want your position to be exposed for the hidden mechanics its constructed on.
    Of course you're not obliged to do anything, but it'd go a long way in making your attempt at an argument more convincing. Simply put, you don't want to elaborate because you can't.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Osama bin Laden's crystal clear reasonings that are purely geopolitical and not religious. At all. even the tiniest little bit.

    Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" 1996
    (This Fatwa was redistributed in 1998)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Our youths believe in paradise after death. They believe that taking part in fighting will not bring their day nearer; and staying behind will not postpone their day either. Exalted be to Allah who said: {And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah, the term is fixed} (Aal Imraan; 3:145). Our youths believe in the saying of the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him): "O boy, I teach a few words; guard (guard the cause of, keep the commandments of) Allah, then He guards you, guard (the cause of ) Allah, then He will be with you; if you ask (for your need) ask Allah, if you seek assistance, seek Allah's; and know definitely that if the Whole World gathered to (bestow) profit on you they will not profit you except with what was determined for you by Allah, and if they gathered to harm you they will not harm you except with what has been determined for you by Allah; Pen lifted, papers dried, it is fixed nothing in these truths can be changed" Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. Our youths took note of the meaning of the poetic verse:
    "if death is a predetermined must, then it is a shame to die cowardly."

    and the other poet saying:

    "Who do not die by the sword will die for other reasons; many causes are there but one death".

    These youths believe in what has been told by Allah and His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) about the greatness of the reward for the Mujahideen and Martyrs; Allah, the most exalted said: {and -so far- those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and improve their condition. and cause them to enter the garden -paradise- which He has made known to them}. (Muhammad; 47:4-6). Allah the Exalted also said: {and do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay -they are- alive, but you do not perceive} (Bagarah; 2:154). His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) said: "for those who strive in His cause Allah prepared hundred degrees (levels) in paradise; in-between two degrees as the in-between heaven and earth". Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) also said: "the best of the martyrs are those who do NOT turn their faces away from the battle till they are killed. They are in the high level of Jannah (paradise). Their Lord laughs to them ( in pleasure) and when your Lord laughs to a slave of His, He will not hold him to an account". narrated by Ahmad with correct and trustworthy reference. And : "a martyr will not feel the pain of death except like how you feel when you are pinched". Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He also said : "a martyr privileges are guaranteed by Allah; forgiveness with the first gush of his blood, he will be shown his seat in paradise, he will be decorated with the jewels of belief (Imaan), married off to the beautiful ones, protected from the test in the grave, assured security in the day of judgement, crowned with the crown of dignity, a ruby of which is better than this whole world (Duniah) and its' entire content, wedded to seventy two of the pure Houries (beautiful ones of Paradise) and his intercession on the behalf of seventy of his relatives will be accepted". narrated by Ahmad and At-Tirmithi (with the correct and trustworthy reference).

    Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, are double their rewards in fighting someone else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.

    Our youths chanting and reciting the word of Allah, the most exalted: {fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the heart of a believing people} (At-Taubah; 9:14) and the words of the prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM): "I swear by Him, who has my soul in His hand, that no man get killed fighting them today, patiently attacking and not retreating ,surely Allah will let him into paradise". And his (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) saying to them: "get up to a paradise as wide as heaven and earth".

    The youths also reciting the All Mighty words of: {so when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks........} (Muhammad; 47:19).

    Those youths will not ask you (William Perry) for explanations, they will tell you singing. "There is nothing between us need to be explained, there is only killing and neck smiting."

    And they will say to you what their grand father, Haroon Ar-Rasheed, Ameer-ul-Mu'meneen, replied to your grandfather, Nagfoor, the Byzantine emperor, when he threatened the Muslims: "from Haroon Ar-Rasheed, Ameer-ul-Mu'meneen, to Nagfoor, the dog of the Romans; the answer is what you will see not what you hear". Haroon El-Rasheed led the armies of Islam to the battle and handed Nagfoor a devastating defeat.

    The youths you called cowards are competing among themselves for fighting and killing you. reciting what one of them said:

    The crusader army became dust when we detonated al-Khobar with courageous youth of Islam fearing no danger, If (they are) threatened, "The tyrants will kill you," they reply, "My death is a victory. I did not betray that king, he did betray our Qiblah. And he permitted in the holy country the most filthy sort of humans. I have made an oath by Allah, the Great, to fight whoever rejected the faith.

    For more than a decade, they carried arms on their shoulders in Afghanistan and they have made vows to Allah that as long as they are alive, they will continue to carry arms against you until you are -Allah willing- expelled, defeated and humiliated, they will carry on as long as they live saying:

    O William, tomorrow you will know which young man is confronting your misguided brethren! A youth fighting in smile, returning with the spear coloured red.

    May Allah keep me close to knights, humans in peace, demons in war. Lions in Jungle but their teeth are spears and Indian swords. The horses witness that I push them hard forwarded in the fire of battle. The dust of the battle bears witnesses for me, so also the fighting itself, the pens and the books!

    So to abuse the grandsons of the companions, may Allah be pleased with them, by calling them cowards and challenging them by refusing to leave the land of the two Holy Places shows the insanity and the imbalance you are suffering from. Its appropriate 'remedy ,however, is in the hands of the youths of Islam, as the poet said:

    I am willing to sacrifice self and wealth for knights who never disappointed me Knights who are never fed up or deterred by death, even if the mill of war turns In the heat of battle they do not care, and cure the insanity of the enemy by their 'insane' courage.

    Terrorising you, while you are carrying arms on our land, is a legitimate and morally demanded duty. It is a legitimate right well known to all humans and other creatures. Your example and our example is like a snake which entered into a house of a man and got killed by him. The coward is the one who lets you walk, while carrying arms, freely on his land and provides you with peace and security.

    Those youths are different from your soldiers. Your problem will be how to convince your troops to fight, while our problem will be how to restrain our youths to wait for their turn in fighting and in operations. These youths are worthy of commendation and praise. They stood up tall to defend the religion; at the time when the government misled the prominent scholars and tricked them into issuing Fatwas (that have no basis neither in the book of Allah, nor in the Sunnah of His prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him)) of opening the land of the two Holy Places for the Christians armies and handing the Al-Aqsa Mosque to the Zionists. Twisting the meanings of the holy text will not change this fact at all. They deserve the praise of the poet:

    I rejected all the critics, who chose the wrong way I rejected those who enjoy fireplaces in clubs discussing eternally. I rejected those, who in spite of being lost, think they are at the goal, I respect those who carried on not asking or bothering about the difficulties, never letting up from their goals, despite all hardships of the road, whose blood is the oil for the flame guiding in the darkness of confusion. I feel still the pain of (the loss) Al-Quds in my internal organs. That loss is like a burning fire in my intestines I did not betray my covenant with God, when even states did betray it!

    As their grandfather Assim Bin Thabit said rejecting a surrender offer of the pagans:

    "What for an excuse I had to surrender, while I am still able, having arrows and my bow having a tough string?! Death is truth and ultimate destiny, and life will end any way. If I do not fight you, then my mother must be insane!"

    The youths hold you responsible for all of the killings and evictions of the Muslims and the violation of the sanctities, carried out by your Zionist brothers in Lebanon; you openly supplied them with arms and finance. More than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression (sanctions) imposed on Iraq and its nation. The children of Iraq are our children. You, the USA, together with the Saudi regime are responsible for the shedding of the blood of these innocent children. Due to all of that, what ever treaty you have with our country is now null and void. The treaty of Hudaybiyyah was cancelled by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) once Quraysh had assisted Bani Bakr against Khusa'ah , the allies of the prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him). The prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) fought Quraysh and concurred Makka. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) considered the treaty with Bani Qainuqa' void because one of their Jews publicly hurt one Muslim woman, one single woman, at the market. Let alone then, the killing you caused to hundred of thousands Muslims and occupying their sanctities. It is now clear that those who claim that the blood of the American solders (the enemy occupying the land of the Muslims) should be protected are merely repeating what is imposed on them by the regime; fearing the aggression and interested in saving themselves. It is a duty now on every tribe in the Arab Peninsula to fight, Jihad, in the cause of Allah and to cleanse the land from those occupiers. Allah knows that there blood is permitted (to be spilled) and their wealth is a booty; their wealth is a booty to those who kill them. The most Exalted said in the verse of As-Sayef, The Sword: {so when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters where ever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush} (At-Tauba; 9:5). Our youths knew that the humiliation suffered by the Muslims as a result of the occupation of their sanctities can not be kicked and removed except by explosions and Jihad. As the poet said:

    "The walls of oppression and humiliation cannot be demolished except in a rain of bullets. The freeman does not surrender leadership to infidels and sinners Without shedding blood no degradation and branding can be removed from the forehead."

    I remind the youths of the Islamic world, who fought in Afghanistan and Bosnia-Herzegovina with their wealth, pens, tongues and themselves that the battle had not finished yet. I remind them about the talk between Jibreel (Gabriel) and the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on both of them) after the battle of Ahzab when the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) returned to Medina and before putting his sword aside; when Jibreel (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) descend saying: "are you putting your sword aside? by Allah the angels haven't dropped their arms yet; march with your companions to Bani Quraydah, I am (going) ahead of you to throw fears in their hearts and to shake their fortresses on them." Jibreel marched with the angels (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on them all), followed by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) marching with the immigrants, Muhajeroon, and supporters, Ansar. (narrated by Al-Bukhary).

    These youths know this: if one is not to be killed one will die (anyway) and the most honourable death is to be killed in the way of Allah. They are even more determined after the martyrdom of the four heroes who bombed the Americans in Riyadh. Those youths who raised high the head of the Ummah and humiliated the Americans-the occupier- by their operation in Riyadh. They remember the poetry of Ja'far, the second commander in the battle of Mu'tah, in which three thousand Muslims faced over a hundred thousand Romans:

    How good is the Paradise and its nearness, good with cool drink, But the Romans are promised punishment (in Hell), if I meet them I will fight them.

    And the poetry of Abdullah Bin Rawaha, the third commander in the battle of Mu'tah, after the martyrdom of Ja'far, when he felt some hesitation:

    O my soul if you do not get killed, you are going to die, anyway. This is death pool in front of you! You are getting what you have wished for (martyrdom) before, and you follow the example of the two previous commanders you are rightly guided!

    As for our daughters, wives, sisters and mothers, they should take prime example from the prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) pious female companions, may Allah be pleased with them; they should adopt the life style (Seerah) of the female companions of courage, sacrifice and generosity in the cause of the supremacy of Allah's religion. They should remember the courage and the personality of Fatima, daughter of Khatab, when she accepted Islam and stood up in front of her brother, Omar Ibn Al-Khatab and challenged him (before he became a Muslim) saying: "O Omar , what will you do if the truth is not in your religion?!"

    And to remember the stand of Asma', daughter of Abu Bakr, on the day of Hijra, when she attended the Messenger and his companion in the cave and split her belt in two pieces for them. And to remember the stand of Naseeba Bent Ka'b striving to defend the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) on the day of Uhud, in which she suffered twelve injuries, one of which was so deep leaving a deep lifelong scar! They should remember the generosity of the early woman of Islam who raised finance for the Muslims army by selling their jewellery. Our women had set a tremendous example of generosity in the cause of Allah; they motivated and encouraged their sons, brothers and husbands to fight- in the cause of Allah- in Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Chechenia and in other countries. We ask Allah to accept from them these deeds, and may He help their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons. May Allah strengthen the belief - Imaan - of our women in the way of generosity and sacrifice for the supremacy of the word of Allah. Our women weep not, except over men who fight in the cause of Allah; our women instigate their brothers to fight in the cause of Allah.

    Our women bemoan only fighters in the cause of Allah, as said:

    Do not moan on any one except a lion in the woods, courageous in the burning wars Let me die dignified in wars, honourable death is better than my current life

    Our women encourage to Jihad saying:

    Prepare yourself like a struggler, the matter is bigger than words! Are you going to leave us else for the wolves of Kufr [infidels] eating our wings?! The wolves of Kufr are mobilising all evil persons from every where! Where are the freemen defending free women by the arms?! Death is better than life in humiliation! Some scandals and shames will never be otherwise eradicated.

    My Muslim Brothers of The World:

    Your brothers in Palestine and in the land of the two Holy Places are calling upon your help and asking you to take part in fighting against the enemy -your enemy and their enemy- the Americans and the Israelis. They are asking you to do whatever you can, with your own means and ability, to expel the enemy, humiliated and defeated, out of the sanctities of Islam. Exalted be to Allah said in His book: { and if they ask your support, because they are oppressed in their faith, then support them!} (Anfaal; 8:72)


    O you horses (soldiers) of Allah ride and march on. This is the time of hardship so be tough. And know that your gathering and co-operation in order to liberate the sanctities of Islam is the right step toward unifying the word of the Ummah under the banner of "No God but Allah" ).

    From our place we raise our palms humbly to Allah asking Him to bestow on us His guide in every aspects of this issue. Our Lord, we ask you to secure the release of the truthful scholars, Ulama, of Islam and pious youths of the Ummah from their imprisonment. O Allah, strengthen them and help their families.

    Our Lord, the people of the cross had come with their horses (soldiers) and occupied the land of the two Holy places. And the Zionist Jews fiddling as they wish with the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the route of the ascendance of the messenger of Allah (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM). Our Lord, shatter their gathering, divide them among themselves, shaken the earth under their feet and give us control over them; Our Lord, we take refuge in you from their deeds and take you as a shield between us and them Our Lord, show us a black day in them! Our Lord, show us the wonderment of your ability in them! Our Lord, You are the Revealer of the book, Director of the clouds, You defeated the allies (Ahzab); defeat them and make us victorious over them. Our Lord, You are the one who help us and You are the one who assist us, with Your Power we move and by Your Power we fight. On You we rely and You are our cause. Our Lord, those youths got together to make Your religion victorious and raise Your banner. Our Lord, send them Your help and strengthen their hearts. Our Lord, make the youths of Islam steadfast and descend patience on them and guide their shots! Our Lord, unify the Muslims and bestow love among their hearts! Our Lord, pour down upon us patience, and make our steps firm and assist us against the unbelieving people! Our Lord, do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord, do not impose upon us that which we have no strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our patron, so help us against the unbelieving people. Our Lord, guide this Ummah, and make the right conditions (by which) the people of your obedience will be in dignity and the people of disobedience in humiliation, and by which the good deeds are enjoined and the bad deeds are forebode. Our Lord, bless Muhammad, Your slave and messenger, his family and descendants, and companions and salute him with a (becoming) salutation. And our last supplication is: All praise is due to Allah .

    Usamah bin Muhammad bin Laden Friday, 9/4/1417 A.H (23/8/1996 AD) Hindukush Mountains, Khurasan, Afghanistan.

    **Text Supplied by : Muhammad A. S. Al-Mass'ari; CDLR (Committee For the Defense of Civil Rights in Saudi Arabia)



    OSAMA BIN LADEN: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans -1998
    Published in Al-Quds al-'Arabi on Febuary 23, 1998

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Statement signed by Sheikh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin; Ayman al-Zawahiri, leader of the Jihad Group in Egypt; Abu- Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the Islamic Group; Sheikh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan; and Fazlul Rahman, leader of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

    Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said "I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders." The Arabian Peninsula has never--since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas--been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies now spreading in it like locusts, consuming its riches and destroying its plantations. All this is happening at a time when nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

    No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

    First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

    If some people have formerly debated the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it.

    The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

    So now they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

    Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

    The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

    All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said "As for the militant struggle, it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

    On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

    The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

    This is in addition to the words of Almighty God "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated and oppressed--women and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

    We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

    Almighty God said "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

    Almighty God also says "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."

    Almighty God also says "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

    http://mideastweb.org/osamabinladen1.htm
    and:
    Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'
    Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

    In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
    "Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

    "Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

    While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:


    (Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
    Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?


    As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

    (1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

    a) You attacked us in Palestine:

    (i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.


    (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.


    When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

    (iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.


    (b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

    (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

    (i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

    (ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

    (iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

    (iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

    (v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

    (d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

    (e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

    (f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

    (g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

    (2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

    (3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

    (a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

    (b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

    (c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

    (d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

    (e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.


    (f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

    The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

    Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

    If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.


    (Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

    (1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

    (a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.


    It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

    (b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

    (2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

    (a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

    We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.


    (b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

    (i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

    (ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

    (iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

    (iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.


    Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

    (v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

    (vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers,visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

    (vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

    (viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

    (xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

    (x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

    (xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

    (xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

    (a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

    (b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

    (c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

    (d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

    (e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

    What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

    (3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

    (4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

    (5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

    (6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

    (7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

    If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

    The Nation of honour and respect:

    "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

    "So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

    The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

    "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

    The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

    "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

    "Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

    The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

    If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

    This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...24/theobserver


    Nothing religious at all....
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 10, 2020 at 07:32 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    [QUOTE=Fardin;15896076][CENTER][B][SIZE=3][FONT=system][SIZE=5]


    God in His mercy has sent messengers to guide us, in different communities, in different times. Each prophet came with guidance and miracles that were relevant for his time and for his people, but the message was the same: That there is only one God and worship is for him alone.
    This “Islam” is the same as the religions brought by all the prophets of God. Islam is the same as the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all) but with more details. God has in His Grace, addressed this issue to man in His final revelation, the Noble Quran.
    Consequently, God has sent the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as His last messenger to mankind. This implies that he must come with a complete and clear guidance, and a clear proof, for all humanity and all times till the Last Day. Otherwise the message is void. Also, the message must be confirming the previous messengers of before. The revelation, guidance, and miracle he received is the Quran
    Only Muslims regard the Quran as a miracle. Many non Muslim scholars think the Koran is a poorly written book, lacking logical structure grammatic errors, redundant and anything but clear, despite claims by the Koran to the contrary. Even Ali Dashti had to concede that "neither the Qu'ran's eloquence nor its moral or legal precepts were miraculous" ("23 Years: A Stuxy of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad" pg 47)


    Tawhid (Oneness)
    In Islam, Tawhid means to assert the unity of God, it is not just unity of Allah Almighty but also Uniqueness, as defined in Quran Surah 112(Al-Ikhlas), He is not born of anyone nor gave birth to any one, nor is any one like Him. The opposite of Tawhid is “Shirk”, which means “Association” or “Partnership” in Arabic. In Muslims view, polytheism and idolatry is known as “Shirk”.
    Tawhid is the most important principle that each Muslim must believe it. Also, Tawhid is mentioned in the other Abrahamic religions. (Uniqueness and unity of God is distorted in Christian religion)
    Since the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is what virtually all Christians believe and was the overwhelming belief of Christians even in Muhammad's time, does that mean the overwhelming number of Christians are guilty of Shirk in Muslims' eyes, and thus regarderld as idolaters, therefore meaning that all the Muslims directives of tolerance do notnapply to the overwhelming majority of Christians. What Muslims.don't tell people the of tolerance do not apply to idolators and pagans, and there are no more pagans in Arabia as a result.

    What do you personally believe? Are Christians who hold to the doctine of thr Trinity, which means thr overwhelming majority guulty ofnshirk and thus be ranked with idolators?

    Nabuwwah (Prophet Hood)
    “Nabuwwah” means “Prophet Hood”. It comes from the word “Nabi” that is mentioned in Old Testament too, as the meaning of God’s messenger. Nabi denotes that God has appointed Prophets and Messengers to

    It means everything Allah does is based on benefit and wisdom
    It means all human are the same before Allah and they are equal
    Actually this not quite true. Sura 4:34 says that men are superior women, which is why women are always under the control of men. In some matters, yes women are the equal ofnmen, such as in matters of faith. In other ways, Islam clearly regards womenmas inferior to men


    Women in Islam

    Status of woman in Islam is incomparable to the other religions or ideologies: In Arabia or some other countries, before Islam, men used to bury newborn alive girls. Women had no rights whatsoever and were treated no better than a commodity. Not only were they enslaved, but they couldn’t also be inherited as a possession. They were subordinate to their fathers, brothers, and husbands.
    The status of women is actually inferior to many, most other religions. A brother inherits twice as much as his sisters (Quran Sura 4:11). She is judged inferior to men (Sura 4:34) and husband are directed to beat disobedient wives (Sura 4:11), the testimony of a man is worth twice that of a woman (Sura 2:282), with the consequence that a rapist word is worth more than his victim and it is very difficult for a woman to prove rape when there are no other witnesses. Further, Islam sanctions the rape of slaves (Sura 23:.5-6, 4:24, 33:50), since there is no requirement for consent.

    Also, while a man can divorce is wife for any or no reason, a wife could only divorce her husband if she had good reason (and becauss of 4:34, beating wouldn't be one of those reasons). So after a lifetime of loyal and faithful service, a man could dump hiz wifd simply because shd wasn't as young and pretty as she once was, and replacs her with somone younger and prettier. Incontrasf, such behaviour filled Jesus with rightous anger and he banned divorce both men and woman equally. Unlike Islam, both sexes are treated equally. Also, while Muslim men can have 4 wives, Muslim woman still can have onlyb1 husband. This inbalancd is invariably going to lower the status of women. In contrast, Christianity again promoted an equality Islam lacks, allow one partner for each. And when a woman's husband died, a woman could become her own mistress and and did not have to fall under submission to another man, again unlike Islam. A Christian widow of a wealtby man a a freedom thst Muslim woman could only dream about, since Muslim women were always under men control. And unlike Islam, a Christian woman could inherit equal sharez and maybe even more, than her brother. Parents could chose to leave more money.ro their widowed daughter who had a family to support than their single son who could more easily fend for himself.

    The bottom line of a this is that of the 5 worst countries for women, 4 are Muslim. 5 of the best countries for womsn were Christian countries (nominally) https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#7e59d8e1273b



    In Egypt, people were putting a bowl of honey just near the corps of dead men body, not women dead body because they believed just the soul of men would return. Women were not allowed to touch holy books or texts but they were used for scarifying.
    Please provide a source.

    In Roman law a woman was even in historic times completely dependent. If married she and her property passed into the power of her husband. The wife was the purchased property of her husband, and like a slave acquired only for his benefit. A woman could not exercise any civil or public office or could not be a witness, surety, tutor, or curator; she could not adopt or be adopted, or make will or contract.
    Not completely true. A Roman women could be her own advocate in court. By the early Empire she remained under limited control of her father even when married. While still under her father control, his sons also remained under his guardianship. She could own her own property, and his being meant he did not excercize much day to day control when married. She was not the property of her husband and Muslim women also remained under the control of men a their lives as well. Depsite claims otherwise, Muslim women also did not hold offices either nor could they be teachers like Imans.

    And unlike even modern Muslim women in Iran, Roman women were not stoned to death for adultry like a Muslim women. A Roman woman inherited equals with her brother, unlike the inferior shares of a Muslim womwn (although later empire tbat might have changed.

    There was widespread Christian belief that the woman had no soul. In 586 A.D, the Council of Macon was held to decide whether the woman was a body that had a base soul or that she did not have a “saved” soul. They made an exception to Mary (PBUH), may God exalt her mention, because she is the mother of Prophet Jesus (PBUH).
    This a lie invented in the 17th century by a heretical Lutheran pastor Johannes Leyser who supported polygamy. Nothing more clearly shows the inferiority of women in Islam than onlynone woman is mentioned by name, and that is Mary, all the other women are not even important enough to have their name mentioned.




    Paul declared that the woman is the source of sin, the basis of every evil and the fountainhead of every abominable act. St. Bonaventure said to his disciples, “When you see a woman, you should not think that you saw a human being or even a beastly being. Rather, you saw the devil in person.”
    Provide sources. What Paul said that the Snake deceived Eve but Adam. In other words, Eve was lesser understanding, Paul is not saying anything different than what Muslims said in the Koran Sura 4:34. Paul clearly laid the blame of sin and death entering the world on Adam in Romans 5:12




    Jews and Christians believe Eva fooled Adam and she was the reason of quitting from heaven, but in Quran it is mentioned that Devil (Satan) fooled both of them and Eva never was the cause of fall from heaven.
    No they don't. There is nothing said about Eve tricking Adam. Adam ate the fruit voluntarily, no mention of being tricked. Paul clearly blamed Adam, since Adam was the senior being and the man, but Genesis makes clear both Adam and Eve were guilty and punishes them both.


    In the pre-Islamic period, the Arabs regarded the woman as a piece of property or as rubbish. When the husband died, his guardian would cover the wife of the deceased with his garment and she could not remarry. They used to prevent her from remarrying until the young matrimonial guardian would grow up and then decide whether he wished to marry her or give her in marriage to anyone else and take the dowry as long as she was not his mother. If she was his mother, he would not marry her. The woman had no rights and she did not inherit anything. She was considered a source of humiliation and shame.

    Islam prohibited all this and allocated for her a specific share in inheritance. Allah the Almighty Says: “there is a share for men and a share for women from what is left by parents and their relatives as heritage whether the property be small or large, it is a decreed share” (4:7)
    Please provide a contemporary source from Arabia that supports your claims. Claims made by Muslims centuries later cannot be trusted. As I showed we can't even trust modern Muslims such as yourself say, even though what you say could easily be disproved, so we simply cannot trust what these medieval Muslims said it is impossible to verify what they said was true or not. We have.very little literary ormarchaeological evidence.from Arabia from Muhammad's time, so we really can't say what the pagan Arabs did or did not, do.

    Moreover, the Arabs in the pre-Islamic era did not only deprive the woman of inheritance but also deprived her of life itself. When some of them begot a female child, they would dig a hole and throw her into it and heap dust over her. What is worse and more disgusting is that once, a father was away travelling when his wife gave birth. When he came back, he took his grown up daughter from her mother, dug a hole while she removed the dust from his clothes, and then, took her by surprise, pushed her into the hole, afterward, heaped dust over her while she was screaming for pity. But his heart did not soften for her. This situation is described in the Quran when Allah the Almighty says: “and when the female infant, buried alive, shall be questioned (8). For what sin was she put to death? (9)” (81:8,9)
    Women in the pre-Islamic era used to expose their adornments and entice men. Noble verses of the Quran were revealed to prohibit Muslim women from imitating the disbelieving women just as Muslim men were prohibited before them from imitating the disbelieving men. Allah the Almighty Says: “And stay very often in your houses; do not exhibit your beauty and ornaments as the manner of the women of the time of ignorance; establish prayer, and pay alms and obey Allah and his messenger. Verily, Allah’s will is to remove away impurity from you, the people of the messenger’s household and to purify you thoroughly (33).” (33:33)
    ??????????? .
    The Quran dedicates numerous verses to Muslim women, their role, duties and rights. In Quran, woman is named as the relaxation for man, as Allah says: “and of Allah’s signs of power is that he created mates for you from your own kind, [i.e., human being] to seek peace and happiness from one another and he caused love and kindness between you; and in all these there are signs of Allah’s power and divine wisdom for men of thought” (30:21).

    Allah wants men to care about women, love them, speak them softly, not to strict or hurt them because woman is divine trust. Any agression towards women is prohibited in Islam.
    Unless it is a husband beating his wife, then it is ok to hurt women. And Islam practices female genital mutilation. Sure it is not in the Koran, but neither is stoning adulterous women (but not adulterous men) but Muslims regard it as Islamic.


    Right to vote, have been given to the women In the United State, by 1920, but the right of voting was given to the women in Islam more around 550 A.D. Islam knows the woman as the base of family and because of that the great responsibility of upbringing is taken on woman shoulders, i.e. motherhood.
    Muslims women couldn't even vote even in modern times and Muslims were not electing anybody in 550 AD. If fact, Muhammad didn't even begin preaching until 614? AD, so there were no women in Islam then. Iranian women got the right to vote only in 1963, and full generation after the US. No Muslim nation had voting rights as early as Christian nations. I would like to see where you up with that claim.

    It is an established fact that taqiyya, lying and deception, ok in Islam if it advances the cause of Islam, especially Shiite Islam. Because of taqiyya, you cannot trust what Muslims say since they might be lying to protect Islam. If telling the true status of womdn makes Islam look bD, then you would practice taqiyya and lie to make Islam look better.

    Allah gave to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), a daughter as the only child, Lady Fatima (PBUH), when woman was known as nothing among Arabian people. Islam encourages women to educate and take part in social activities. In addition Allah put 12 Imams in his daughter generation and it also proves the importance of woman in Islam.
    Education of Muslim women lag those od Christian women. Of the 28 countries with the worst literacy rates for women, 20 are Islamic. And of the 7 countries with the biggest literacy gap between boys and girls, all are Islamic https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...ys-critics-are

    In Islam, there is no difference between men and women’s relationship to God; they receive identical rewards and punishments for their conduct. Many classical Islamic scholars, supported female leadership.
    But Islam today does not support women leadership. How does these scholars support square with Sura 4:34? Ans csn you provide sources? I proved you wrong several times now.

    It is also true in Chrisrianity there is no difference between men and woman in their relationship with God. When women go paradise, do they get 40 male virgins, 40 female virgins or no virgins. If the woman martyrs get 40 female virgins are they really getting the same reward as men? Would a heterosexual woman have the same use for 40 virgin female as heterosexual man?

    In early Islamic history, some women took part in political activities.
    Do you any sources to support those claims? Currently the countries that don't have women representatives are Muslim ones https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...ys-critics-are

    Women have played an integral part in the development and spiritual life of Islam since the inception of Islamic civilization in the seventh century A.D. Lady Khadijah (PBUH), a businesswoman who became the Prophet Muhammad's wife,
    Khadijah was a business woman while still a pagan, Muhammad hadn't had his revelations when he went to work for her and adventually married her. Muhammad essentially married his boss. Sounds to menthsr in some women were better off in pagan Arabia, since.modern Muslims frown on woman bosses.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; April 10, 2020 at 09:40 AM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Given Islam's history and current state I think the burden of proof weights heavily on those trying to claim women are equal under Islam

    Here are some examples of the kind of things Women deal with in Islam.

    Women are arrested for not wearing Hijabs. This has happened dozens of times, I've chosen just one article as an example.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rrest-29-women

    The women's world chess champion was expelled from the team for refusing to play with a Hijab on.

    https://women.ncr-iran.org/2020/01/0...-forced-hijab/
    Go to a market in your country and steal something, we'll see what happens to you, Law is law and putting on Hijab is a law in a Islamic country like Iran and the law must be respected till changing the law via election of someone who intends to change it.
    How about the prevalence of female genital mutilation in predominantly Islamic countries?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...n-where-happen
    This matter is not related to the religion they practice we do not have such obligation in Islam. This is because of the culture of the communities in those places and even non muslims in those regions do that too.
    Let's not forget the prevalence of child marriages in Iran, which are condoned in the Quran.

    https://observers.france24.com/en/20...old-bride-iran

    Or the fact that you can marry your adopted daughters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pted-daughters
    The legal age for marriage for girls in Iran is 13 years old.Any underage marriage requires a court order, and the court examines the person's maturity and, if approved, issues a certificate. Most of these appeals to the court fail.

    Let's not act like Islam is a religion or culture that respects women, that's naive. If you want to try to make that sort of claim, it's imperative that you provide actual evidence.
    What kind evidence is actual to you? so I can provide something you are after.
    "A full heart has room for everything and an empty heart has room for nothing"
    Antonio Porchia

    Clearing up misconceptions about Islam
    Clearing up misconceptions about Iran


  13. #33

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fardin View Post
    .
    I bring you the entire verse:
    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
    Thank you.
    For others reading this, note that the parentheticals indicate an addition, not in the original.

    "اضربوهن"/"beat them(lightly)" in this verse might come with a misunderstanding that we could beat our wives! But Imam Sadiq (PBUH) says: ... "اضربوهن" in this verse means beating them lightly... which means without causing any bruises or redness of skin.

    In Iran as a Shia ruled country, We have these penalties for domestic violence According to Articles 386 and 387 of the Islamic Penal Code, the perpetrator must be retaliated against if he commits a crime against the members of the body, at the request of the defendant or her guardian, if the conditions for retribution are met.
    Then, beating your disobedient wife, lightly, for her caring and reforming, is not considered domestic violence under the Islamic Penal Code (of Iran). Is that correct?

  14. #34

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What are the "world's media giants"? Who is 'severely censoring' these "world media giants"? Define "Zionists" and who are "the Zionists" that control the "world media giants"?
    Which terrorist groups were created by the US and its allies?
    Start another thread in these topics and we'll discuss about these matters in there. These issues require a broad discussion that leads to a departure from the main discussion.
    Which people are turning to "Islamist politicians"?
    people who embrace Islam.

    How is people turning to "Islamist politicians" "very dangerous for the current regimes"?
    I do not know if this is really a question or what?
    But we simply can say people's inclination towards political groups that oppose the ruling party is always dangerous for the government.

    Whom does Islam not accept the "oppression" of?
    I didn't get the point of the question again!




    Due to the lack of time and the multiplicity of questions and comments, the answers may be slightly delayed. I apologize in advance to those who spent their time to comment.
    "A full heart has room for everything and an empty heart has room for nothing"
    Antonio Porchia

    Clearing up misconceptions about Islam
    Clearing up misconceptions about Iran


  15. #35

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Thank you.
    For others reading this, note that the parentheticals indicate an addition, not in the original.

    Then, beating your disobedient wife, lightly, for her caring and reforming, is not considered domestic violence under the Islamic Penal Code (of Iran). Is that correct?
    The "lightly" is not in the original Arabic text. You probably are using the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation, and he does that a lot, adding words that were not in the original text that slightly alters the meaning of the verse, usually to put Islam in a more positive light. If you look at your translation, you see that "ligbtly" will be in parenthesis.

    Adding the word lightly gives an impression that might or might not be true. Some translators use the word "scourge" which gives thr opposite meaning, implying a heavy beating. There is ambiguity in the text, and in case it is up to the husband to define what exactly a light beating is. Unlike the d Testament, whichnactually specifies the number of lashes, the Koran is vague. And when you have such vagueness, there will be people who will abuse it. A 250 lbs 2 meter tall (6' 6" ) might give a beating he thought was light but we would thinks is heavy.

  16. #36

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamat View Post
    Of course you're not obliged to do anything, but it'd go a long way in making your attempt at an argument more convincing. Simply put, you don't want to elaborate because you can't.
    You're not really in a position to criticize me for not elaborating in the fashion you wanted while you completely refused to address my argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The "lightly" is not in the original Arabic text. You probably are using the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation, and he does that a lot, adding words that were not in the original text that slightly alters the meaning of the verse, usually to put Islam in a more positive light. If you look at your translation, you see that "ligbtly" will be in parenthesis.

    Adding the word lightly gives an impression that might or might not be true. Some translators use the word "scourge" which gives thr opposite meaning, implying a heavy beating. There is ambiguity in the text, and in case it is up to the husband to define what exactly a light beating is. Unlike the d Testament, whichnactually specifies the number of lashes, the Koran is vague. And when you have such vagueness, there will be people who will abuse it. A 250 lbs 2 meter tall (6' 6" ) might give a beating he thought was light but we would thinks is heavy.
    The "beating" part is not in the original Arabic text either. I'm not sure if they do it in English, but in Turkish, Quran is always presented as basically paraphrasing, not translations. They used the word "meal" here which is different from the Turkish word for translation. The reason for that pretty much all translators actually do not translate based on etymology or actual language rules. They often do it based on their own culture and how others have translated.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; April 10, 2020 at 09:30 AM.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  17. #37

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The "beating" part is not in the original Arabic text either.
    Yes it is (bolded):

    الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا

    Transliterated:

    ar-rijālu qawwamūna ʿala -n-nisāʾi bimā faḍḍala - llāhu baʿḏahum ʿala baʿḍin wa bimā ʾanfaqū min ʾamwālihim fa-ṣ-ṣāliḥātu qānitātun ḥāfiẓātun l-il-ghaybi bimā ḥafiẓa -llāhu wa-l-lātī takhāfūna nushūzahunna fa-ʿiẓūhunna w-ahjurūhunna fi-l-maḍājiʿ w-aḍribūhunna fa ʾin ʾaṭaʿnakum falā tabghū ʿalayhinna sabīlan ʾinna -llāha kāna ʿalīyyan kabīran
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #38

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Yes it is (bolded):

    الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ ۚ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا

    Transliterated:

    ar-rijālu qawwamūna ʿala -n-nisāʾi bimā faḍḍala - llāhu baʿḏahum ʿala baʿḍin wa bimā ʾanfaqū min ʾamwālihim fa-ṣ-ṣāliḥātu qānitātun ḥāfiẓātun l-il-ghaybi bimā ḥafiẓa -llāhu wa-l-lātī takhāfūna nushūzahunna fa-ʿiẓūhunna w-ahjurūhunna fi-l-maḍājiʿ w-aḍribūhunna fa ʾin ʾaṭaʿnakum falā tabghū ʿalayhinna sabīlan ʾinna -llāha kāna ʿalīyyan kabīran
    Except it doesn't mean "to beat" in that form. It's like the difference between "strike" and "strike out" where you have the same word but in a totally different meaning given the context and form. That word, in fact, is used countless times throughout Quran, but with different meanings based on context and form.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post


    There is little in the post you responded to that warrants this pissing contest. Not that what you post is anywhere near accurate. You're not really using any data while making a claim about how attacks from Muslims on non-Muslims is a tiny fraction of attacks on Muslims by non-Muslims. It's safe to assume you're ignoring cases from Myanmar or Burma, heck, you wouldn't even think of mentioning invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I provided links to support everything I said, while you a merely have made unsipported assertions. If you dispute what I wrotd, you too can provide facts to back up what you said, instead of just complaining what I said.because you found the truths I said uncomforable.

    I didn't mention Iraq or Afghanistan because unlike the Muslim attacks they were not religioisly motivate. The US wars in Iraq and Afghanistannwere not intended to kill Muslims, they were change the regimes running those countries. Any civilians killed were a.regrettable and unintended byproduct. In contrast the killing of men, women and children by Muslims was intentional, innocent children and women and men were intended target. The Muslim killigs wers just to satisfy an insatiable lust for.killing non Muslims. They served no military obkjective, and bombing churches of a religious minority was not going to change the Sri Lankan government. It was just to kill non Muslims, Christians in particular, a goal you seem to support.

    Also, Muslim.terrorist killed far more Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq than the US did in those countries. Iran, in particular through its surrogates killed.far more civilians in Iraq than the US ever did. If you really cared about Muslims or anybody you would stop supporting these Muslim groups.

    And my response was definitely warranted. His post demostrated exaxtly what is wrong with Islam, and why terrorism and groups like ISIS and tragedies like Syria are some.prevalent in the Islamic world. The arrogant, conceited, bigotted and false belief in the superiority of Islam is exactly what is wrong with the Islamic world, but the poster and Muslim like him don't see it. You are not going to make changes if you think you are better than everyone else. The poster thinks that Muslims are the victims where thr truth is the opposite, everyone else is the victim of the Muslims.

    He believes that women are better off in the Islamic world than elsewhere when again the truth is opposite. Saudi women only just got the right to drivs a car, 20 of the 28 countries with the lowest literacy rate are Muslim countries, the 5 worst countries for women are Muslim, yet the poster thinks women are better off in Islam.. Unfortunately, with thst kind of attitude things won't improve and a lot of Muslims think that way, even in the West, and the majority worldwide. That is scary.

    Have ever read the Koran? Just try to read it without being told what a passage meant and without cherry picking a verse here or there? Just start reading what.is basically the first chalter of the Koran, Sura 2, and nust a few verses into it stsrtig with verse 6 it starts criticizijg an condemning non-Muslims, threatening thrm with dire fates, and calls.liars and fools and continues this way for the nexf couple pages until verse 20..


    PS - There.are.a few places like Myamar, which Burma, where innocent Muslims are being attacked. And Muslims have been victims of some very viscious riots in India, such as the Gujareet Riots in 2002. But these are local events, involving just locals, while Muslim terrorist attacks involve Muslims from around the world.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; April 10, 2020 at 11:35 AM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: What Is ISLAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Except it doesn't mean "to beat" in that form. It's like the difference between "strike" and "strike out" where you have the same word but in a totally different meaning given the context and form. That word, in fact, is used countless times throughout Quran, but with different meanings based on context and form.
    If you believe there is an ambiguity about that, the best thing you can do is to look how this particular passage is interpreted by muslims, especially leading islamic scholars...like those is Saudi Arabia who like to specify the tools allowed in wife beating.

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