Sparta's Glaring Manpower Problem

[Summary]

Sparta has terrible manpower to begin with. To make matters worse, the only units worth a cent in their roster are Homoioi (1st class), their Perioikoi (2nd class) units are slightly above mediocre and their Helot (3rd class) units are downright awful. Does anyone even recruit Helots? Problem is if you don't recruit them, you empty your provinces from the 1st and 2nd class citizenry opening a gateway for an explosive Helot growth, even with buildings that stack 1st and 2nd class population growth bonuses. Anyway to get rid of them damn Helots?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Homoioi 46, Perioikoi 100, Heilotes 73,855!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Perioikoi 2,275, Heilotes 220,689!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The four Helot class units available to Sparta, (Note I am using experimental battle pack by KAM hence the unit stats are different from base game). Heilotes troops are completely useless. And yet, somehow I have to hire them to keep my population balanced, and 50% of my army consisting of arguably the worst units in game. There isn't a single faction in game with such terrible 3rd class units.

P.S. I don't mean any disrespect, but while I understand why Sparta has severe manpower problems at the start of the campaign as is historically accurate, it makes no sense, that they continue to do so, even once they acquire the territorial equivalence of the Roman Empire.

[Loyt]

Current population system often ends up with deficit of 1st class.

I suggest some changes to system itself.
Make each class pop increase not from existing class base, but from all pop base. 10%/30%/60% (1st/2nd/3rd class) for example. All bonuses to certain class pop would change that ratio (at the expence of 3rd class).
That way there is always some higher class pop in region, but it remains limited.

And that is even realistical to some degree - if region sustained high blow to its elite population, it doesn't remains elitless, new elite forms from lower classes.
Social and administrative roles must be fulfilled anyway - classes forms from that.

[Summary]

I like that idea. It does makes sense that the classes always try to normalize around a fixed ratio, and that a city doesn't just become a pleb city. That's a great idea in fact. There should be a limit to the growth of plebs. This can be done through immigration as well. Say a city "A" has majority upper class people, and city "B" has majority lower class people, the lower class people could flock to city "A" in search of better opportunity to climb the ladder, while the elite from city "A" could migrate to city "B" with an idea of monopolizing their elite status.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Yeah I played a sparta campaign a while back and it’s mostly just using aor troops. but it would go against the spirit of the mod to pull new troops for sparta from nowhere, though the allied troops they get later are at least competent. But being in greece really is just an advantage unto itself, you can get solid pikes and decent cav from macedon, archers from Crete, agrianians are buffed in kams experimental pack and are very solid flankers, and then moving up just a little further to Thrace gives you a great heavy sword unit, heavy peltasts, and ing rhompaias.

[CadetNewb]

Playing as Sparta, you have to grapple with the same exact problems that the Spartans themselves faced in reality - there were never, ever enough of them. If you want to feel what it's like to lead Sparta, do not change the population values with a mod and stick to how it is in DeI. It's just like what Vida Loca said. You got to solve this the same exact way that the Spartans did, and that's going light on the Homoioi and Perioikoi, while filling your ranks out with mercenaries and foreigners. You're in Greece, so you have access to pretty good ones too, and they all draw from your 4th population class, which is no problem at all. As you progress through the tech tree, you'll see that this is the central theme around them as well.

Remember, the Spartans are the best. But there are never enough Spartans.

[Atomic Punk]

How i play sparta

Disband your 1st class troops, left only the general on 1st turn
Use high taxation (hurts growth, but hurts more 3rd class than 1st and 2nd class)
Turtle with your garrison (Sparta settlement battles are very easy, so even if someone declares war on you, you can defeat superior forces with few loses)
Play like a , for a long time (usually 50 or 60 turns)
???
Profit

[Loyt]

Playing as Sparta, you have to grapple with the same exact problems that the Spartans themselves faced in reality - there were never, ever enough of them.

Because they lost wars, territories and influence historically before start of the game. It is only starting challenge.

But why should it persist, if you manage to conquer sizeable kingdom? You are in Greece, very densely populated, urbanized and developed area at the time. It doesn't make sense to have same population problems in completely different circumstances.

[Summary]

Because they lost wars, territories and influence historically before start of the game. It is only starting challenge.

But why should it persist, if you manage to conquer sizable kingdom? You are in Greece, very densely populated, urbanized and developed area at the time. It doesn't make sense to have same population problems in completely different circumstances.

Totally agree, that's the point people are missing. Yes I get the starting conditions are required and very true to history. That an earthquake, the loss of citizenship due to poverty and the Battle of Leuctra caused Sparta severe manpower shortages. But I am talking about 40 years to 50 years into the game that's around 160 to 200 turns in. Also I own all of Italy, the Balkans, Anatolia, Mesopotamia and the Levant (all with majority Hellenic culture), and still the province of Makedon has around 500 Homoioi, 2,000 Perioikoi, while having 220,000 Heliotes! Assuming Sparta could in reality achieve what I had in game, they wouldn't be able to do it in their current state of affairs, they would have to follow what Rome did historically to improve the manpower available to them by relaxing citizenship criteria and granting citizenship. Obviously, if a Sparta existed for so long and did so well, they would surely try to restore their depleted manpower through reforms. Sparta unlike most other factions historically was pretty much an army with a state and was extremely militarized, even to the very end despite manpower shortages. Unlike in Rome where all were not required to enroll, in Sparta every citizen was required to serve in the army.

Currently after the final reforms Sparta gets access to a heavy shock cavalry unit, whose description states that Spartiates themselves didn't become cavalrymen but understanding the importance of cavalry started hiring allied cavalry to fill that role, however, even these units ironically draw from the Spartiate/Homoioi population.

Changes I would recommend:
1.) Cleomenes reforms if possible could add an increased growth rate to Spartan 1st class citizens, and upgrade in the main Homoioi hoplitai and the introduction of Sarissa wielding phalangitai, that draws from the Homoioi class, as is currently the case in the game.
2.) Nabis reforms if possible could introduce higher quality units from the Heliotes class, who were now granted full citizenship, and even allowed to marry Spartan women and acquire land. However, they would never be as professional as the Spartans of antiquity. But certainly better than men in togas flinging stones.

The stats say that Sparta at its height during the Peloponnesian Wars fielded about 8,000 Spartiates, this number dwindled to a few hundreds in the centuries to follow, due to Cleomenes III's reforms this number increased to 4,000 and following Cleomenes, Nabis' reforms increased this number to 10,000. Of course the circumstances were very different then, as the Spartans would have to face the Romans (who were already the emerging Mediterranean power that controlled Macedon) and its allies.

An extract from Wikipedia, (I know not a great reference, but it is still quite reliable).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Nabis' reforms[edit]

In return for his assistance in the war, Rome accepted Nabis' possession of the polis of Argos. While Nabis was already King of Sparta, he made his wife Apia ruler of her hometown Argos. Afterwards, Apia and Nabis staged a financial coup by confiscating large amounts of property from the wealthy families of these cities, and torturing those who resisted them; much of the confiscated land was redistributed to liberated helots loyal to Nabis.^[3][10] After increasing his territory and wealth by the aforementioned method, Nabis started to turn the port of Gythium into a major naval arsenal and fortified the city of Sparta.^[5] His Cretan allies were already allowed to have naval bases on Spartan territory, and from these they ventured on acts of piracy.^{[Note 4]} His naval buildup offered a chance even for the very poor to participate, as rowers, in the profitable employment. However, the extension of the naval capacities at Gythium greatly displeased the abutting states of the Aegean Sea and the Roman Republic.^[3]
Nabis' rule was largely based on his social reforms and the rebuilding of Sparta's armed forces. The military of Lacedaemonia, Sparta, had traditionally been based on levies of full citizens and perioeci (one of the free non-citizen groups of Lacedaemonia) supported by lightly armed helots. From several thousands in the times of the Greco-Persian Wars, the numbers of full citizen Spartans had declined to a few hundred in the times of Cleomenes III. There were possibly several reasons for the decline of numbers, one of which was that every Spartan who wasn't able to pay his share in the syssitia (common meal for men in Doric societies) lost his full citizenship, although this didn't exclude his offspring from partaking in the agoge (traditional Spartan education and training regime).
As a result, the fielding of a respectable hoplite army without mercenaries or freed helots was difficult. Cleomenes increased the number of full citizens again and made the Spartan army operate with an increased reliance on more lightly armored phalangites of the Macedonian style.^[15] However, many of these restored citizens were killed in the Battle of Sellasia and Nabis' politics drove the remainder of them into exile. In consequence, the heavy troops were no longer available in sufficient numbers. This led to a serious decline in Sparta's military power, and the aim of Nabis reforms was to reestablish a class of loyal subjects capable of serving as well-equipped phalangites (operating in a close and deep formation, with a longer spear than the hoplites'). Nabis' liberation of the enslaved helots was one of the most outstanding deeds in Spartan history. With this action, Nabis eliminated a central ideological pillar of the old Spartan social system and the chief reason for objection to Spartan expansion by the surrounding poleis (city-states). Guarding against helot revolt had been, until this time, the central concern of Spartan foreign policy, and the need to protect against internal revolt had limited adventurism abroad; Nabis' action abolished this concern with a single stroke. His freed helots received land from him and were wedded to wealthy wives of the exiled Spartan demos (all former full citizens) and widows of the rich elite, whose husbands had been killed at his orders.^[5]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The reforms[edit]

After having removed the ephors, who obstructed his political will, Cleomenes used the character of Lycurgus the lawgiver, which allow him to legitimize the violence, and he began his reforms. He first handed over all his land to the state; he was soon followed in this by his stepfather and his friends and the rest of the citizens. He divided up all the land and gave an equal lot to every citizen, a unique achievement. The land was pooled and redistributed in equal portion to some 4,000 citizens (although the first Agis plan projected 4,500 citizens). These citizens were half old citizens who had been exiled, and half new citizens who for the most part were mercenaries who fought with the Spartan army. There were also Perioeci granted land for their dedication to Sparta. Those 4,000 citizens enhanced the body of Spartan citizens, which had suffered from oliganthropia.^[17]
For the first time the amount of produce the Helots had to surrender to each klaros-holder^{[clarification needed]} was specified in absolute quantities rather than as a proportion of the annual yield. Cleomenes trained 4,000 Hoplites and restored the ancient Spartan military and social discipline.
The citizens' children were required to pass through an agoge, and the adult citizens had to practise again the old austere diaita centred upon communal living within the framework of the military-minded masses. More significantly, Cleomenes decreed that his new army should follow the model of the Macedonian army, a century after the bitter defeat of the Athenians and Thebans to the Macedonians at Chaeronea. This was characterised by the use of the Macedonian sarissa, a five-meter pike, which performed well over the next two campaigning seasons. Cleomenes completed his reforms by placing his brother, Eucleidas, in charge, making him the first Agiad king on the Eurypontid throne.^[12]

The above spoiler kind of reveals how Sparta tried to reverse its apparent manpower problems, but it was too little, too late with the Romans at their doorstep and unwilling to allow for Sparta to gain strength, which lead to its eventual conquest. While the game does include these two reforms; The Cleomenes reforms and the Nabis reforms, all these reforms do in game is to upgrade the Homoioi hoplitai stats, rather than address what the reforms really addressed in reality. The former allowed for more citizens to be restored, and the latter even included and freed helots and granted them citizenship. The latter especially sounds quite a kin to the Marian reforms, with the grants of citizenship and the extending of military enrollment to non-citizens as well as arming the army by the state.

[KAM 2150]

You have population problems only if you overrecruit in single region. You should also disband your Spartan when not on campaign as it was done in history, that way your pop growth increases. If you have sizeable empire, you will have quite big total amount of Spartans. Greek cities and especially Sparta were pretty elitist and would not give away their power, especially once they rose to power. Greeks in Bactria and India also did not take non-Greeks into their ranks and they still had institution that made sure Greeks marry only other Greeks there still in II AD. If you take pop management from Sparta, they just become like any other faction.

From what I know, population already works on a ratio to which it balances itself. Only thing that comes to my mind would be to add Helot population cost in addition to Homoioi population cost to Spartan units to show they always had some helots with them on campaign as servants.

[corsair831]

Helots are fantastic for soaking up damage and chasing off archers, Spartan elite infantry is so good that you just need to keep it alive and doing damage while your generals level up; allow the helots and mercenaries to take all the casualties while the Spartan elites destroy the main body of their army. Army composition should be around ~~ 8-10 units of Spartan elite/peroikoi with the rest being a mixture of mercenaries and helots

[Dardo21]

Population effects aren't added to the reform script at the moment, Sparta itself receives a population growth bonus, but perhaps some kind of tech could be added for Sparta specifically to increase its growth towards the mid/late game. Personally, I added minor pop growths to several more technologies.

[KAM 2150]

I actually got two new neat ideas for Sparta, that seems to be missing from their army but I need to research more.

First would be a unit of Neodamodes, who were helots that gained freedom through military service, for balance purpose they would still come from Helot class and they will fight as light but veteran spearmen. They were most likely fighting as Hoplites but I am not sure how balance wise it would work for whole army perspective. They could be using hoplite like equipment but have "Disciplined formation" instead of normal phalanx to be a bit more support than mainline unit.

Second unit will be Trophimoi; they were non Spartan citizens who were went through Spartan education, for example Xenophon sent his sons there. They would mostly go back to their native lands but would also decide to stay and remain in army or even be granted citizenship. Since they were probably from more wealthy families, they will be using good equipment and come from foreigner population class but overall inferior to regular Spartans.

[Summary]

I actually got two new neat ideas for Sparta, that seems to be missing from their army but I need to research more.

First would be a unit of Neodamodes, who were helots that gained freedom through military service, for balance purpose they would still come from Helot class and they will fight as light but veteran spearmen. They were most likely fighting as Hoplites but I am not sure how balance wise it would work for whole army perspective. They could be using hoplite like equipment but have "Disciplined formation" instead of normal phalanx to be a bit more support than mainline unit.

Second unit will be Trophimoi; they were non Spartan citizens who were went through Spartan education, for example Xenophon sent his sons there. They would mostly go back to their native lands but would also decide to stay and remain in army or even be granted citizenship. Since they were probably from more wealthy families, they will be using good equipment and come from foreigner population class but overall inferior to regular Spartans.

I like this idea of Neodamodeis. Yes you are right they were most likely hoplites. Maybe you can still make them hoplites albeit with lower armor values since, they wouldn't be able to afford good armor like the Spartiates. They could fill the role of early Perioikoi Hoplites. Maybe the relationship between Neodamodeis>Perioikoi>Spartiate could be more like Hastati>Principes>Triarii.

Second unit sounds good to be normal hoplites better than the Perioikoi, worse than the Spartiates. And making them come from the foreign class is a great way to balance Spartan's manpower problems.

Currently the main problem with Sparta is too much pressure on the 1st and 2nd class even after conquering large swathes of territory. Making the 2nd or 3rd reform diversify the army a bit to draw from the other population classes would be a boon to Spartan gameplay and enjoyability.

[meerkatology]

unless something has changed recently. 2nd class troops are quite ok at start of game. periokoi hoplties and skritai swordsmen IIRC are both pretty good units. the real problem with hoplite armies ironically was their vulnerability to mass ranged fire, due to being clumped and not having something like testudo.

should be a bit better with the new shield buff.

later in the game u should probably be able to manage the manpower

and iirc growth isn't based on current pop, unless something has changed

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Skiritai swords are pretty good, a very quality unit without many analogs prior to the Agrianian infantry buff
The Skiritai peltasts I haven’t tried but they do have stealth abilities which gives them a decent niche.

[CadetNewb]

For some reason, I read "Skiritai swords" as "Skiritai Legionnaires".

[Demosthenes26]

It would be great to see Nedamodes and Trophimoi! It would add a lot to recruitment strategy while being historical

First would be a unit of Neodamodes, who were helots that gained freedom through military service, for balance purpose they would still come from Helot class and they will fight as light but veteran spearmen. They were most likely fighting as Hoplites but I am not sure how balance wise it would work for whole army perspective. They could be using hoplite like equipment but have "Disciplined formation" instead of normal phalanx to be a bit more support than mainline unit.

I wonder if there might be another way to balance them which allows them to be hoplites. Sparta doesn't have proper epistratoi hoplites as is, so they could fill that role with essentially no amour outside of helmet and greaves (though given spartan training probably better than other light hoplites). Due to the number of Helots in Laconia there was a constant and visceral fear of revolt among the spartans, so they didn't take to arming them lightly. When Brasidas first recruited them the Spartans selected a few thousand of the fittest helots, and then separated them into two groups by lot. Then they outright slaughtered one half of them, and told the other group the dead ones had been rejected and went back to being helots. Since those who survived went off to campaign in Macedonia for years, they didn't find out for a long time, and the regular helots who weren't recruited were told that all recruits went off to campaign...this brutal practice both gave the Spartans more desperately needed hoplites and reduced the ability of helots to rebel. (I heard this in the History of Ancient Greece Podcast, they cite their sources for each episode, I can try to find it if you want, but its probably Thucydides). Maybe this unit could draw from double the helot population as is actually in the unit, as well as having a campaign cap? If the spartan army was formed of too many helots there would likely be a major political threat, especially under less adept leaders than Brasidas.

Second unit will be Trophimoi; they were non Spartan citizens who were went through Spartan education, for example Xenophon sent his sons there. They would mostly go back to their native lands but would also decide to stay and remain in army or even be granted citizenship. Since they were probably from more wealthy families, they will be using good equipment and come from foreigner population class but overall inferior to regular Spartans.

I really like this idea! Since they were often granted lands in spartan territory, I reckon they could be particularly expensive compared to Periokoi and Homoioi-but could be extra useful in an expanded spartan state.

[KAM 2150]

Hmm that light hoplite unit with phalanx would work even better than spear version. My issue with spear version was that they would not be that much different to regular Helots and inferior to Spartan youths. What could work is them being "light" hoplites with shield, spears, swords and helmets, with maybe 1/5 having some very light quilted armour or such BUT with overall stats of a regular hoplites since they had already seen some combat. I think that would make them rather solid lower tier units.

As for Trophimoi, I could make them 3rd tier unit (just to compare, stats wise Spartans are 4th tier, Perioikoi are 2nd tier), drawing from 4th pop class BUT with increased recruitment and upkeep so they would not be replacing Spartan units but be more like a expensive substitute. Also due to being members of more noble and wealthy families, I can make them a bit more "flamboyant" in terms of look compared to rather simper look of Spartans.

[Summary]

Are you making this as a submod, KAM?

[KAM 2150]

No, I would like it to be in main mod.