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Thread: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

  1. #101

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    A few examples for you to ponder.

    It was your video that has zero fatalitys in it, its your video that has no one under orders to kill, or anyone charged with attempted murder. If you cant be bothered to understand your own video, and whats not in it, thats your problem/ignorance not others
    Yes, riot police are not generally trying to kill any of the rioters. But they are trying to break them up and subdue them by intimidation and injury. The goal of the riot police is to rout the rioters, so they stop being a riot. They may not slaughter the rioters after the rout, but it has distinct and identifiable similarities to an army trying to rout their enemies from the field in a pre-modern battle. Similarly, the goal of the rioters is to rout and drive off the police, to use violence and intimidation to extract concessions from the authorities on whatever particular subject has motivated them to riot. When a rioter is swinging a lead pipe or a club at a policeman, there is genuine intent to injure involved. When a policeman is striking a rioter down with a baton, he is meaning to subdue this person by pain and injury. Riots are very violent, uncontrolled, chaotic situations, which can and do result in injuries, concussions, comas, or death. Dismissing their value as an analogy on the basis of them being not violent enough is, frankly, quite mistaken.

    We also know that the majority of casualties in an ancient battle aren't a result of combat, but a result of one side slaughtering the other during the rout. The battle-winning action is to force the other side to rout and run away. Both rioters and police are trying to rout the other side, they just don't slaughter the people who run away. This may be a different context, but it has enough similarities to be a useful modern analogy, and is especially useful given that riots are well recorded and can be visually examined by watching video and news footage.


    Its your ignorant statement contradicted by Vegetius, who you used, who also explains:

    That for 4 months a recruit was trained how to,

    Marching
    drills comprised/How to march with all of your equipment/How to properly pack equipment/How to march in formation/What specific trumpet signals mean/Formation training/How to form a specific set of formations/How to identify the trumpet signals and flags for each formation/When certain formations are used/Physical conditioning/Small unit tactical training


    Tiro was a raw recruit, the Discens a trainee, and the Miles a basic trained soldier, none were assigned to a legion in the field as replacment as they were not yet ready for that. Then came Armatura, training for combat/individual and group training.

    Each legion had the following instructors
    Campidoctor; drill-instructor.
    Doctor armorum or armatura; weapon-instructor.
    Doctor cohortis; drill-instructor of the cohort/maniples

    4 months basic training, is longer than basic training in the British Army, nearly twice that of the US army.

    Training Soldiers for the Roman Legion
    S. E. Stout
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/3288082
    Vegetius was writing in the 4th century AD.

    My purpose in my original essay was to examine the Roman army of the 3rd to 1st century BC, the Roman army most visible in the writings of Polybius and Julius Caesar. I wished to examine that army because that was the Roman army which overcame Carthage, Macedon, the Gauls, and all the rest of Rome's peer rivals and granted Rome her empire. It had the most notable success against the most dangerous rivals. Vegetius is outside the purview of my interests and arguments. He may have useful information about the Roman army of the mid to late Empire, but I have not been discussing the army of Trajan or Marcus Aurelius. My apologies if that has not been communicated clearly. My comments have been about the armies of Scipio Africanus, Marius, Sulla, and Julius Caesar, down to about the solidification of the Augustan system circa 30 BC.

    I would doubt that the republican Roman Army of the period I have been discssuing had a 4 month training period prior to campaigning. The Roman campaign season began in March and ended in October, which if they were training for 4 months would mean that half their campaign season was spent training the troops. This seems unlikely, particularly in the earlier Republican context of seasonal wars against local Italian or Gallic rivals. Scipio's desire to avoid engagement prior to the Battle of Trebia in order to have a winter in quarters to drill their troops only makes sense if the Romans had marched off with green, unseasoned legions to seek out Hannibal at the start of the Second Punic War. Similarly, if a 4 month training period was the norm and there was some standard level of competency before going on campaign, then why did Caesar leave his newer legions out of his battle line in his early battles in Gaul and rely on veterans? I think it far more likely that training was not concentrated in a single "boot camp" period, but was rather carried out continuously throughout a legion's time on campaign, in a manner like apprenticeships in a trade, with particularly responsible or good commanders like Scipio and Caesar taking a greater personal interest in the tutelage of their soldiers.

    As for the oath of the Triarii you posted from Aulus Gellius: Gellius was living in the 2nd century AD, like Vegetius well after the period I am discussing. Polybius is an actual contemporary of the Roman army in the period, and all he has to say about their military oaths was: "those of the tribunes on whom this duty falls collect the newly-enrolled soldiers, and picking out of the whole body a single man whom they think the most suitable make him take the oath that he will obey his officers and execute their orders as far as is in his power. Then the others come forward and each in his turn takes his oath simply that he will do the same as the first man."

    And "Acies" still does not mean "Phalanx".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I'm afraid that between your ignorance of evolution of Roman army in the specified period and selectively picking the passages, you got quite carried away.

    Roman army evolved from the classical Greek hoplite warfare, which is a remarkably formalized type of combat, emphasizing periods of shield press to break the enemy, while skirmishing and other phases of battle are deemphasized. The formal separation of hastati, principes and triarii is most likely a legacy of that, a system formalizing rotating the troops during lulls in combat. But Romans, fighting often in rough terrain and against enemies fighting in different way, had to adapt. Scutum, first of these adaptations, allows user to protect himself without relying on assistance from his fellow, but you've wrongly interpreted it, because it's definitely not a shield for skirmisher or loose order combat. It's too unwieldy, limiting user's movement and situational awareness in loose order, but allows him to stand his ground in formation without having to rely on shield overlapping. In a similar manner, gladius is best employed by a soldier in close quarters, tight combat, but without having to rely on support from rear ranks, as happened with hoplite spears. But it's too short for open melee, spatha would serve better in such case, which is why late Imperial Roman army adopted it to replace gladius. Finally, pilum is not a skirmisher javelin. It's too heavy, giving the user low range and low ammunition. But it's a great shock weapon, disabling the target's shield right before closing in for melee. Again, Romans had better things in inventory for skirmishing.

    The equipment points toward main role of Roman legionary being heavy infantryman, fighting in close, ordered formation. While the intensive period of shield press couldn't be maintained for long periods, we have many accounts of legionaries engaging in prolonged, ordered melee, most likely maintaining distances that allowed changing of frontline troops and not pushing into intensive combat....but not fighting in open order either. For example, this is what Cassius Dio wrote about battle of Phillipi:
    "For a long time there was pushing of shield against shield and thrusting with the sword, as they were at first cautiously looking for a chance to wound others without being wounded themselves."
    This is a legacy and continuation of the ordered combat of the citizen militia hoplite. A hoplite, Camillian or Polybian legionary came from the relatively wealthier part of society-wealthy enough to afford full gear, and would see the combat mostly as his duty. Discipline, holding his place in formation, those were seen as parts of the duty, doing his part in the army. While the battle could present opportunities to display individual valor and gain status and monetary reward, it wasn't that usual to seek those out. After all, a typical legionary of the time had at bit of both already. He had more to lose and less to gain than, say, a Gallic or Thracian warrior. Of course, you had the usual...thrill seekers, those willing to risk much more than usual for status, those arrogant and impetuous, believing in own superiority or wanting to display their skill in arms...the equestrian and patrician orders especially produced those.
    But it wasn't the norm. You've noticed the awards for those who went above and beyond the call of duty in battle. There wasn't an award for restraint. Because that was the norm.
    Firstly, I would dispute whether the army of the Roman Kingdom or the early Republic could be characterized as a "phalanx" in any way equivalent to the hoplite phalanx of the Greek poleis. But that is neither here nor there. I would like to rather focus on the issue of close order order vs open order combat.

    The Romans were certainly aware of closely ordered, dense formations and the advantages of such a mode of combat. They fought wars with the Greeks of southern Italy, the Gauls and Germans often used dense shield walls in battle, they were on the receiving end of the terror of the Macedonian phalanx in their wars with Pyrrhus and the Macedonians. In their own army, the Triarii were the hardened backbone of the Republican legion, and were expected to save the army when the fortunes of battle were against it, and they fought in a dense, close formation. Yet the Triarii, as one might expect, used spears. Every army in Mediterranean Antiquity which relied on a dense, closely packed formation and some kind of shield wall used spear and shield, because that armament is very, very good for that kind of fighting. The Macedonians took it to the next step and used pikes, which given even more physical and psychological advantages to their troops and made the Macedonian pikemen the most formidable infantry of their time.

    So why were the Romans different? If they were also fighting in dense formations like everyone else, if they were also relying on tight ranks, why were their Triarii, with their spears, arranged as a reserve in the back? Why did they rely on javelins and swords at the leading edge of battle? When the Triarii disappear in the Late Republic, why does the Legion become even more reliant on javelins and swords and sets the spear aside for its line infantry?

    Why does Polybius state that the rear ranks of a Roman maniple cannot support the front ranks either by pressing with their shields or by use of their swords? If the Roman maniple was meant to fight in a closely arranged, tight formation, why does he state that the Roman legionary moves as an individual to ward or strike as he needs? Why do the texts of Caesar and later Livy emphasize that the Romans must spread out and open up their ranks in order to fight?

    If close ordered formations were how the Romans preferred to fight, you might expect the triarii to have been the leading edge of the legion in battle. It was fairly common in Antiquity for the oldest, wealthiest, and most experienced soldiers to be the ones placed in the front. Indeed that was the norm for the Greeks and the Macedonians, for good reasons. If they preferred close ordered formations, why did not they adopt the Macedonian phalanx after being on the receiving end of it against Pyrrhus? Why did they not develop their own equivalent to the pike array? They certainly had the means to do so, and direct demonstration of its terrible nature in battle. Yet they did not. Their front line troops relied on swords and javelins, which require space to wield. They used the scutum, which does not overlap with your neighbour's shield in a formation. Polybius says they were spread out enough that a single legionary would face two files of pikemen in a battle with a Macedonian phalanx, and have to contend with 10 sarissae. This seems very strange if the Romans rely on a close formation.

    Contrary to what has been alleged, I am not saying that the Romans were a disorderly mob. They had units, they had leaders, they had standards, and they probably had ranks and files too. The references in Caesar particularly to the standards of their centuries and cohorts as the landmarks in battle by which a soldier oriented himself are indicative of an army which has a system of order within its battle line. What I am saying, however, is that the Romans were more loose and open in array than their Hellenistic counterparts, and they tolerated and allowed for much more latitude and freedom within their battle line for the soldiers to move forward and back for whatever their individual needs as combatants were than other armies which relied much more on close order formation did.

    I said, perhaps over-zealously, that the legionaries were probably more like heavy skirmishers than heavy infantry. I no longer think this necessarily communicates the right ideas. I think "line infantry" is perhaps better, because the Roman legionary, like the later musketeer of Napoleon or Wellington, was a versatile soldier who, arrayed in a battle line, both fought with missiles and finally drove his enemies to rout by means of hand to hand combat. Due to the physical and psychological stresses of hand to hand combat, such encounters would necessarily be brief pulses or localized exchanges (As per the Sabin quote previously), interspersed with longer periods of stand off and lull.
    Last edited by EricD; April 25, 2020 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #102

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Yes, riot police are not generally trying to kill any of the rioters. But they are trying to break them up and subdue them by intimidation and injury. The goal of the riot police is to rout the rioters, so they stop being a riot. They may not slaughter the rioters after the rout, but it has distinct and identifiable similarities to an army trying to rout their enemies from the field in a pre-modern battle. Similarly, the goal of the rioters is to rout and drive off the police, to use violence and intimidation to extract concessions from the authorities on whatever particular subject has motivated them to riot. When a rioter is swinging a lead pipe or a club at a policeman, there is genuine intent to injure involved. When a policeman is striking a rioter down with a baton, he is meaning to subdue this person by pain and injury. Riots are very violent, uncontrolled, chaotic situations, which can and do result in injuries, concussions, comas, or death. Dismissing their value as an analogy on the basis of them being not violent enough is, frankly, quite mistaken.
    Any mistakes, come from your counter intuitive use of a video that does not depict anyone using lethal force, the difference between lethal and non lethal conflict is significant. Nor does it depict the Roman Army formations used in battle, it has no depth of ranks, it has no rank relief system.

    In your video the Police/Romans are the only ones moving in formation, formation requires discipline, none of them break ranks and act as individuals. Kinda disproves your points rather concretely.

    Your video in no way captures the essence of discipline, military training to perform rank relief, open order to close order movement etc, this one does https://www.military.com/video/law-e.../3122639958001

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    We also know that the majority of casualties in an ancient battle aren't a result of combat, but a result of one side slaughtering the other during the rout. The battle-winning action is to force the other side to rout and run away. Both rioters and police are trying to rout the other side, they just don't slaughter the people who run away. This may be a different context, but it has enough similarities to be a useful modern analogy, and is especially useful given that riots are well recorded and can be visually examined by watching video and news footage.
    Who is we?.You have confused the effects of rout with the effect of close combat to be sure, but no one else has made this error.

    If you want to understand history, dont watch modern videos of non lethal events, and think your watching ancient combat, its like comparing a video of M Ali winning, to a Roman gladiator winning.

    Use math to understand it instead. Here is what i know, winning a battle has no loss of the wounded who cannot escape, no rout and all it entails. Hanny at Cannae lost c5500 KIA of his c50,000, 10% of his starting force in a days combat, Meade at G-burg lost 3155KIA of his 104,000, 3% in 3 days. Hanny in Italy fought 8 major battles, all victories, his average KIA loss was still c10%. Twice that of the USA in the entire WBTS.

    Math explains that Hanny in Italy lost 10% of his forces KIA, without being subjected to a rout, 5 times the loss of life at Gettysburg, the difference is there was hours of close combat at Cannae, which shows up as massive more KIA than from the WBTS data from any battle, and the CS expended 3.5 million rnds of munition to contribute c85% of those KIA. 60k pila at Cannae is drop in the ocean and contributed little to the casualties, beyond making them easier to inflict by depriving the enemy of the use of his shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Vegetius is outside the purview of my interests and arguments. He may have useful information about the Roman army of the mid to late Empire, but I have not been discussing the army of Trajan or Marcus Aurelius. My apologies if that has not been communicated clearly. My comments have been about the armies of Scipio Africanus, Marius, Sulla, and Julius Caesar, down to about the solidification of the Augustan system circa 30 BC.

    That wont wash, you were happy enough to mention him ( and others) repeatedly and at length when it suited you to do so. More selective cherry picking.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I would doubt that the republican Roman Army of the period I have been discussing had a 4 month training period prior to campaigning.The Roman campaign season began in March and ended in October, which if they were training for 4 months would mean that half their campaign season was spent training the troops. (Snipped for continuity)
    I think it far more likely that training was not concentrated in a single "boot camp" period, but was rather carried out continuously throughout a legion's time on campaign, in a manner like apprenticeships in a trade, with particularly responsible or good commanders like Scipio and Caesar taking a greater personal interest in the tutelage of their soldiers.

    That 4 month period, is the training time for a replacement for a legion far away in the field. You may not have noticed that legions in the field during the Punic/Macedonian wars received replacements, they came from the trained manpower of Rome, who from the laws of servilus required them to serve.

    Correct it was far longer, Livy tells it was all year round when at peace/war, the city legions spent all year training on the Campus Martius, and gives us the rotation of daily exercises, Livy has the order different but the same exercises.. Polybios and livy then tell us how they trained in the campaigns, heres 2PW Spain. Livy only refers to a city legion/s, there alwatys being two, for its first year of service, in Rome, it then is sent out to campaign being replaced by a new city legions to be worked up.


    "He ordered the soldiers on the first day to go at the double for thirty stades in their armour. On the second day they were all to polish up, repair, and examine their arms in full view, and the third day to rest and remain idle. On the following day they were to practice, some of them sword-fighting with wooden swords covered with leather and with a button on the point, while others practiced casting with javelins also having a button at the point. On the fifth day they were to begin the same course of exercise again."

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Similarly, if a 4 month training period was the norm and there was some standard level of competency before going on campaign, then why did Caesar leave his newer legions out of his battle line in his early battles in Gaul and rely on veterans?

    Because as Caesar makes clear he was enrolling not in Italy, these recruits had no prior military training and he had to start from scratch with them. If you note Caesar was also surprised in one engagement and the veterans took up any posistion they could rather than their allocated position, this is exactly what happened at Herodonea where livy explains the same thing, and army surprised and troops forced to fight not in their accustomed place. Caesar was like Lee, who refused larger green Brigades when offered them as they "were more to feed and less to rely on."


    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    As for the oath of the Triarii you posted from Aulus Gellius: Gellius was living in the 2nd century AD, like Vegetius well after the period I am discussing.
    Gellius wrote in the 2nd, but was using accounts from the 2PW, Livy uses the same source for his numbers, as the source was captured by Hanny and wrote a history now lost except for details recounted by Gellius livy etc, so its what is in the book that is important not that Livy and Gellius wrote long after the evenjts, but that they used the acount of those who were there.

    Livy oath of 216
    "Then a new departure was made; the soldiers were sworn in by the military tribunes. Up to that day there had only been the military oath binding the men to assemble at the bidding of the consuls and not to disband until they received orders to do so. It had also been the custom among the soldiers, when the infantry were formed into companies of 100, and the cavalry into troops of 10, for all the men in each company or troop to take a voluntary oath to each other that they would not leave their comrades for fear or for flight, and that they would not quit the ranks save to fetch or pick up a weapon, to strike an enemy, or to save a comrade. This voluntary covenant was now changed into a formal oath taken before the tribunes."

    Example you used du Picq several times, written long after the events and you were happy to use him, except of course that means you have to ignore what he thought about roman training and discipline." Roman training and Roman discipline produced a fantastic army, discipline cannot be secured or created in a day, it is an institution."

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Polybius is an actual contemporary of the Roman army in the period, and all he has to say about their military oaths was: "those of the tribunes on whom this duty falls collect the newly-enrolled soldiers, and picking out of the whole body a single man whom they think the most suitable make him take the oath that he will obey his officers and execute their orders as far as is in his power. Then the others come forward and each in his turn takes his oath simply that he will do the same as the first man."
    Polybios also wrote "Each man swears to steal nothing from the camp and even if he finds anything to bring it to the tribunes." here he is giving just one detail of the contents of the oath being taken.

    He also wrote that every Roman male had to serve 16 years in a legion, by age 46, or 10 years if a Cavalry man, if the State was in peril, it was raised to 20 years service.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    And "Acies" still does not mean "Phalanx".
    Your still the only one getting the translation incorrect, apparently you dont accept the Triari fought as a phalanx.
    Last edited by Hanny; April 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  3. #103

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    That wont wash, you were happy enough to mention him ( and others) repeatedly and at length when it suited you to do so. More selective cherry picking.
    Point of order: This is not the case. EricD has yet to use Vegetius in support of his arguments, and in point of fact, prior to this page where he explains why Vegetius is outside the remit of his thesis, he has named Vegetius only twice, both times in his opening essay as an off-hand reference to later authors looking back at history. I am the one who brought up a lengthy digression involving Vegetius back on page 4, and one that I stand by.
    Last edited by alhoon; April 26, 2020 at 02:21 PM. Reason: off topic negative personal reference removed

  4. #104

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    Point of order: This is not the case. EricD has yet to use Vegetius in support of his arguments, and in point of fact, prior to this page where he explains why Vegetius is outside the remit of his thesis, he has named Vegetius only twice, both times in his opening essay as an off-hand reference to later authors looking back at history.
    It is the case, he used him as as source to knock down, he opened the door for rebuttal in any discussion thereafter.


    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    To many people, the iron discipline and training of the Legions is legendary. The conquest of the vast Roman Empire seems evidence of this, and we have the statements of authors like Vegetius and Josephus to support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    It was an almost unprecedented prolonged period of military success, against genuinely formidable opposition, and one which later authors like Vegetius would often look back to with nostalgia.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    More materially, Vegetius' spacing [describing the spacing took up by Roman soldiers in battle] simply does not provide sufficient room to fight
    Post he exchanges views on Vegetius include post 47 post 60 and 61.

    Examples of authors he says support his views, when you look you find they do not.

    Cannae: The Experience of Battle in the Second Punic War
    https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...kC&redir_esc=y

    Battle Studies, by Colonel Ardant Du Picq
    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7294/7294-h/7294-h.htm
    Last edited by alhoon; April 26, 2020 at 02:21 PM. Reason: continuity
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    I shall reply in kind: 'countermarching' wasn't even a Roman tactic. It first turns up in the writings of William Louis, brother to Maurice, the Prince of Orange in the 1600's, who claims (unverifiable) to have discovered countermarching as an evolution of drills laid out in the Aelianus Tacticus, possibly inspired by Chorean or Persian techniques, which he could apply to the use of firearms. The Romans did not countermarch.

    Not according to re enactors.

    https://comitatus.net/romandrill.html


    https://books.google.co.uk/books?red...0march&f=false
    The Tactics of Aelian



    Not according to the Romans themselves.


    Romans had counter marched sine the 2nd cent BCE.


    "De Viris Illustribus Urbis Romae," by Sextus Aurelius Victor (320 AD to 390 AD).


    "45.1 Marcus Marcellus crushed Viridomar, the leader of the Gauls, in singular combat. 2 He was the third from Romulus to consecrate the opulent spoils to Jupiter Feretrius. 3 He was the first to teach the soldiers how to retreat without turning their backs."

    Claudius Marcellus, who first defeated Hannibal in a battle which he delivered to him in Campania, and who taught how the cavalry could retreat without flee before the enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    EricD already covered at some length that there is little to no record of Roman combat training
    Only if you cherry pick.

    Scipio Africanus, in Spain, conducted an extensive training program for his legions, then again while waiting in Sicily to attack Africa. Cato the Elder is known to have trained his forces in Spain, but his works are lost and exactly what he did is unclear (he was apparently against teaching individual fighting techniques since he believed bravery and discipline were superior to skill in arms). Aemilius Paullus had a minimum program set up for his army during the 3rd Macedonian War. Scipio Aemilianus had a training program for his legions during the siege of Numantia that was extensive. Caecilius Metellus instituted one with the help of his legates Marius and Rutilius Rufus during the Jugurthine War. Both Marius and Rutilius Rufus stood up their own training programs when they became consuls, the latter created the famous tradition of using gladiator instructors to teach sword play to the soldiers, and Marius' training reforms are quite famous . By the time of the Social Wars it became common for generals and tribunes to use those same training techniques, which passed on, with other big name generals like Pompey and Caesar using them, until it became standard to train them.Corbolu trained his Legions for two years to get ready to invade with.


    The extent of the training was marching for endurance, digging camps, sword drills, individual sparring and larger scale mock battles, pilum throwing, hurdling, vaulting, some swimming, and a little bit of close order drill.
    Last edited by Hanny; April 26, 2020 at 02:35 PM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  6. #106

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    It is the case, he used him as as source to knock down, he opened the door for rebuttal in any discussion thereafter.
    No, that's not using Vegetius, that's an offhand mention of later authors including Vegetius. You assert that EricD mentioned him 'repeatedly at and length', when to date his only lengthy use of Vegetius has been on this page, explaining why he is outside the remit of this essay. Your only quote which actually uses Vegetius as part of an argument, the third, which mentions Vegetius' spacing, is actually from post #27 where EricD is quoting Michael Taylor as part of a different argument, who briefly refers to Vegetius to the effect of preferring Polybius. Posts #47 and #61, while #60 both does not mention Vegetius and also isn't even by EricD. A couple of offhand mentions to sketch out the common understanding of Roman warfare do not constitute 'repeatedly and at length' mentioning Vegetius as part of the argument. Indeed, far from being 'selective cherry-picking', EricD's statement on this page that Vegetius is outside the scope of this discussion because he writes from further in the future,seems entirely of a piece with one of those offhand mentions back in post #1, where he refers to Vegetius only as a later author looking back on the period which EricD is actually interested in discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    Not according to re enactors.

    https://comitatus.net/romandrill.html


    https://books.google.co.uk/books?red...0march&f=false
    The Tactics of Aelian



    Not according to the Romans themselves.


    Romans had counter marched sine the 2nd cent BCE.


    "De Viris Illustribus Urbis Romae," by Sextus Aurelius Victor (320 AD to 390 AD).


    "45.1 Marcus Marcellus crushed Viridomar, the leader of the Gauls, in singular combat. 2 He was the third from Romulus to consecrate the opulent spoils to Jupiter Feretrius. 3 He was the first to teach the soldiers how to retreat without turning their backs."

    Claudius Marcellus, who first defeated Hannibal in a battle which he delivered to him in Campania, and who taught how the cavalry could retreat without flee before the enemy.
    To the first; Comitatus.net writes the following;
    Comitatus is lucky in that we have two well-known sources for drill giving us information for our period. Vegetius writing in the 390’s gives us information on how to deploy the cohorts, as well as other formations such as the “pigs head”. Much of the work is theoretical, and harks back to a glorious past. It may not give the standard practice of the early 5th century army. But it does impart much useful information and in many ways became the military manual of the Middle Ages. The Emperor Maurice, writing in the 590’s AD gives us actual Latin orders and basic drill for his Eastern army. It is designed as a field manual for serving officers, and it reads like a Comitatus guidebook. On top of this we can even read of the experiences of Ammianus Marcellinus, a serving officer in 353-363 AD.

    Comitatus drill commands come straight from Maurice, complete with grammatical errors.
    From Maurice, that being the very same Prince of Orange from the 1600's to whom William Louis wrote. Meaning, not directly from a Roman source, and in any case based on the writings of Vegetius, already established to be beyond this discussion's scope.

    To the second, did you, uh, look at that googlebooks page? There are many mentions of the Macedonian counter-march and Choral counter-marches and Persian counter-marches, all used by Aelianus to describe Greek tactics. None of, you know, Roman counter-marching, as I said. Meanwhile, for infantry to retreat without turning their backs, or for cavalry how to withdraw without routing, as Sextus Aurelius Victor describes, seems more akin to fighting retreats than countermarching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    Only if you cherry pick.

    Scipio Africanus, in Spain, conducted an extensive training program for his legions, then again while waiting in Sicily to attack Africa. Cato the Elder is known to have trained his forces in Spain, but his works are lost and exactly what he did is unclear (he was apparently against teaching individual fighting techniques since he believed bravery and discipline were superior to skill in arms). Aemilius Paullus had a minimum program set up for his army during the 3rd Macedonian War. Scipio Aemilianus had a training program for his legions during the siege of Numantia that was extensive. Caecilius Metellus instituted one with the help of his legates Marius and Rutilius Rufus during the Jugurthine War. Both Marius and Rutilius Rufus stood up their own training programs when they became consuls, the latter created the famous tradition of using gladiator instructors to teach sword play to the soldiers, and Marius' training reforms are quite famous . By the time of the Social Wars it became common for generals and tribunes to use those same training techniques, which passed on, with other big name generals like Pompey and Caesar using them, until it became standard to train them.Corbolu trained his Legions for two years to get ready to invade with.


    The extent of the training was marching for endurance, digging camps, sword drills, individual sparring and larger scale mock battles, pilum throwing, hurdling, vaulting, some swimming, and a little bit of close order drill.
    No, not if you cherry-pick. In point of fact, you are the one cherry-picking by making out that I was saying there was little to no record of Roman combat training in general, when from the context of that post it is clear I was referring to combat training in the sense of formation drills, maneuovres, and other exercises to teach a sense of rigid, organised fighting as an army, rather than... Well, just as you say; physical conditioning and individual sparring.

    Because yes, certainly Roman soldiers trained, but as I have discussed before, what did they train? Well, you mention Scipio Africanus, and as EricD already established, and to which I was referring...
    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Polybius does describe a training scheme put into place by Scipio Africanus while his troops were in winter quarters in his Iberian campaign, after the fall of Carthago Nova. Quoth:

    “He [Scipio] himself remaining for some time in New Carthage constantly exercised his navy and instructed the tribunes to train the land forces in the following manner. He ordered the soldiers on the first day to go at the double for thirty stades in their armour. On the second day they were all to polish up, repair, and examine their arms in full view, and the third day to rest and remain idle. On the following day they were to practise, some of them sword-fighting with wooden swords covered with leather and with a button on the point, while others practised casting with javelins also having a button at the point. On the fifth day they were to begin the same course of exercise again.” (Polybius’s Histories, Book 10, Chapter 20)

    Given that Polybius takes the time to explicitly describe this training program, it may not have been standard or usual in the Roman army at the time but rather an indication of Scipio Africanus’s great quality as a commander. However, note the attention paid in this training to the fighting qualities of the individual soldier. They practice their individual martial arts, they improve their individual endurance by running in armour, they repair and tend to their individual weapons. Maneuvers or drilling of formations are not mentioned, although the running in armour may have been in a formed body. Individual skill is again seen here as highly important. It may have been that Scipio the Elder wished for a similar training period to get his own soldiers a period of practice in their own martial arts prior to seeking battle.

    This emphasis on martial skill (As in, the skill with weapons of the individual soldiers) might be seen as analogous to training in basic soldier skills that takes place throughout a modern professional soldier’s time in the army. It could be seen as an ancient counterpart to time on the rifle range, individual marksmanship, or weapons handling and stoppage drills. What seems to be absent is exercising of the larger groups of Scipio’s army. While modern troops will drill and exercise in sections, platoons, companies, and larger groupings, in order to inculcate troops with smooth and effective battle drills to meet the challenges of the modern battlefield, there are no accounts of how Scipio’s men practiced in centuries, maniples, or legions. They certainly could plausibly have done so, but the text is silent on when, how, or to what extent. Given that Polybius is known to have been personally familiar with many leading military men in Rome, and to have accompanied Roman armies on campaign, and his array of other relevant comments on the military qualities of Roman armies, this is a very notable omission.
    Likewise, you mention the Marian Reforms, and again this has been covered;
    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    certainly there are changes in the army due to Marius’s reforms. The triarii disappear, and the legionary infantry becomes a “standard” type armed with scutum, pila, and gladius. So too go the velites. The aristocratic citizen cavalry, the equites, also disappear, both they and the velites replaced by foreign mercenaries and auxiliaries of various kinds. The army becomes organized primarily on cohorts rather than maniples. Marius recruits from the urban, landless poor, a thing never before done in Rome. The army gradually becomes loyal primarily to its commander, who recruits and pays them, rather than the Senate and People. There are substantial organizational, social, and political changes that come along with the Marian reforms.

    What I do not see, however, is substantial behavioural change on the part of the humans who made up the Roman army. Legions may have been simplified to a single type of troops, but they still deploy in the traditional three lines. The triarii are gone, but the legionaries still fight with pilum and gladius in much the same manner as their predecessors did. Their order is still loose, allowing them to fight individually. They still vie amongst themselves for glory by the public display of individual aggression and courage. That same heroic virtus still resisted the disciplina which their officers and commanders tried to restrain them with, often leading to disobedience. They still face harsh penalties for cowardice. They still scrupulously and carefully entrench their camp at the end of a day’s march. Caesar may have been a great general, but his armies do not evidence any maneuvers or battle behaviours more complex or different than what the armies of Paullus or Scipio are accounted as performing in combat.

    A legionary post-Marius may have been a “professional” mercenary who spent 20 years under the colours, but as said before the civilian militia of the earlier Republic also kept a large store of military experience in its body of citizens by means of her constant wars and by recalling experienced campaigners to the legions regularly. The theoretical 20 year service of a post-Marian legionary is not so very different from the 16 years of service before the age of 46 which Polybius mentions. Theoretically, keeping the legionaries as a standing force could allow for them to keep their soldiering skills in practice in times of peace, but how often was Rome ever at peace? Until some time into the Imperial period, the Romans seem to have always been at war with somebody, somewhere.

    So if there are all these elements of continuity, on what basis could we say that Marius changed or improved the training of the legions? This fact is often repeated as a truism, that Marius made the legions more professional and better trained, yet I do not believe it holds up to a close examination of the primary texts.

    ...

    And what, finally, do the primary sources (Plutarch for the life of Marius) tell us about the training of Marius’s army as he moved to face the invasion of the Cimbri?

    “Setting out on the expedition, he laboured to perfect his army as it went along, practising the men in all kinds of running and in long marches, and compelling them to carry their own baggage and to prepare their own food.” (Plutarch, Life of Marius, Chapter 13)

    Route marches, physical exercise, carrying burdens. Nothing in Plutarch’s account of the life of Marius suggests that his training regimen was a very revolutionary or different thing. Very likely it was the same kind of training which responsible Roman generals had exercised their troops in throughout the history of the Roman army, although it was perhaps more necessary for the army of Marius, drawn from the landless poor who may have lacked prior campaigning experience. Plutarch goes on:

    “And now, as it would seem, a great piece of good fortune befell Marius. For the Barbarians had a reflux, as it were, in their course, and streamed first into Spain. This gave Marius time to exercise the bodies of his men, to raise their spirits to a sturdier courage, and, what was the most important of all, to let them find out what sort of a man he was. For his sternness in the exercise of authority and his inflexibility in the infliction of punishment appeared to them, when they became accustomed to obedience and good behaviour, salutary as well as just, and they regarded the fierceness of his temper, the harshness of his voice, and that ferocity of his countenance which gradually became familiar, as fearful to their enemies rather than to themselves.” (Ibid, Chapter 14)

    There seems to be nothing in the accounts of training which Marius gave to his legions which appears substantially different or revolutionary from how Scipio is described as training his own forces, or what was likely common throughout a young man’s first campaign in the armies of the Republic.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I'm afraid that between your ignorance of evolution of Roman army in the specified period and selectively picking the passages, you got quite carried away.

    Roman army evolved from the classical Greek hoplite warfare, which is a remarkably formalized type of combat, emphasizing periods of shield press to break the enemy, while skirmishing and other phases of battle are deemphasized. The formal separation of hastati, principes and triarii is most likely a legacy of that, a system formalizing rotating the troops during lulls in combat. But Romans, fighting often in rough terrain and against enemies fighting in different way, had to adapt. Scutum, first of these adaptations, allows user to protect himself without relying on assistance from his fellow, but you've wrongly interpreted it, because it's definitely not a shield for skirmisher or loose order combat. It's too unwieldy, limiting user's movement and situational awareness in loose order, but allows him to stand his ground in formation without having to rely on shield overlapping. In a similar manner, gladius is best employed by a soldier in close quarters, tight combat, but without having to rely on support from rear ranks, as happened with hoplite spears. But it's too short for open melee, spatha would serve better in such case, which is why late Imperial Roman army adopted it to replace gladius. Finally, pilum is not a skirmisher javelin. It's too heavy, giving the user low range and low ammunition. But it's a great shock weapon, disabling the target's shield right before closing in for melee. Again, Romans had better things in inventory for skirmishing.
    The equipment points toward main role of Roman legionary being heavy infantryman, fighting in close, ordered formation. While the intensive period of shield press couldn't be maintained for long periods, we have many accounts of legionaries engaging in prolonged, ordered melee, most likely maintaining distances that allowed changing of frontline troops and not pushing into intensive combat....but not fighting in open order either. For example, this is what Cassius Dio wrote about battle of Phillipi:
    "For a long time there was pushing of shield against shield and thrusting with the sword, as they were at first cautiously looking for a chance to wound others without being wounded themselves."
    This is a legacy and continuation of the ordered combat of the citizen militia hoplite. A hoplite, Camillian or Polybian legionary came from the relatively wealthier part of society-wealthy enough to afford full gear, and would see the combat mostly as his duty. Discipline, holding his place in formation, those were seen as parts of the duty, doing his part in the army. While the battle could present opportunities to display individual valor and gain status and monetary reward, it wasn't that usual to seek those out. After all, a typical legionary of the time had at bit of both already. He had more to lose and less to gain than, say, a Gallic or Thracian warrior. Of course, you had the usual...thrill seekers, those willing to risk much more than usual for status, those arrogant and impetuous, believing in own superiority or wanting to display their skill in arms...the equestrian and patrician orders especially produced those.
    But it wasn't the norm. You've noticed the awards for those who went above and beyond the call of duty in battle. There wasn't an award for restraint. Because that was the norm.

    What you completely missed is how this mentality gradually changed in the period on which you focus. In Second Punic War, Rome started feeling serious manpower shortage among classes from which were legionaries usually recruited. The standards of wealth for recruits have lowered, and eventually, a corps of velites was established for those too poor to afford proper legionary gear. And with this lowering came change of mentality. More legionaries, and epecially velites, saw the service not as a duty, but as means to gain wealth. Armor of dead enemy is worth much more to the guy who can't afford it than to the guy who can already afford a dozen.
    During late republic, the practice of abolishing the wealth requirements for recruits and shifting the cost of equipment toward state and commanders became commonplace. The dominant motivations of legionaries gradually shifted from duty to gain of wealth and status. This enabled rise of warlords like Marius, who formalized the practice, Sulla and Caesar. And it changed their behavior. Discipline that was previously taken for granted had to be sometimes enforced, and troops motivated by the material gains were more liable to display aggressive behavior. But they legacy of the disciplined militia remained, as did the traditional style of warfare, even though made more flexible. The mentality that drove Roman to fight in disciplined, ordered formations when asked remained, as evidenced by the Roman civil wars where veterans of various campaigns tended to stand their ground and outlast the green recruits, rather than beat them through aggression as one would expect based on your hypothesis.
    While there are other excellent posts in this Thread, I want to highlight this particular one.
    Have some Rep.

  8. #108

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    No, that's not using Vegetius, that's an offhand mention of later authors including Vegetius.
    Asked and answered. You lost. Move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    To the first; Comitatus.net writes the following;
    Not relevant. They are a Roman re enacting group, not a Dutch 17th Century one, they use " A complete military system was introduced to the Dutch army based mainly on Claudius Aelianus, involving distance, facings, doublings, countermarching and wheeling."

    Claudius Aelianus describes how to countermarch between gladius and pila armed members of a formation so as to bring pila armed to the front and gladius to teh rear by counter marching.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    To the second, did you, uh, look at that googlebooks page?
    yes, clearly you did and failed to comprehend it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    There are many mentions of the Macedonian counter-march and Choral counter-marches and Persian counter-marches, all used by Aelianus to describe Greek tactics. None of, you know, Roman counter-marching, as I said.
    What you wrote has no basis in fact, it is simply more of your uniformed opinion that is contradicted by historical facts.


    The 3 military evolution are what you( romans) use, each has a different function.


    (1)Macedonian, (2)Lakedaimonian, and (3)Persian countermarch are all tactical evolutions of drill, the formation, to allow entire command or sub division to maneuver in any direction, (1)( whole legion or sub division down to maniple, whole point of havinga sub divisions is to allow tactical maneuvers by the divisions, ergo drill to perform this must exist to allow the sub divisions to operate, otherwise its simply a gaint phalanx) file leaders turn ( change direction) and the file moves of after him. ) Formation is ill suited for combat as it has Standards and officers in the wrong position and will require further tactical maneuvers to orientate itself for combat. (3) File leader and file closer exchange places, (by counter march) unit is now facing to the rear, so as to maneuver in that direction ready for combat as all are in the usual position, or how to put rear ranks to the front and fromt ranks to the rear by rank replacemnt(Agmen claudere - Transforma which is Counter march to the rear).


    Romans were counter marching, and using 3 different ones for separate purposes, and we know this because we have them saying so, this is from c 50 BCE The Terms used for military Evolutions
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dotus/10*.html


    The same is expressed in Aullian 1 cent AD, Arrian late 2nd cent AD.


    We know how the orders were given by Caser to counter march, in his book. Caesar Gallic war. We know the Romanization of the selucid army in the 160s involved copying Roman counter marching methods, see https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hellenistic.../dp/8389786834

    Late Romans had an African drill, does not mean the Africans only used it, its just the term the Romans used for what they were conducting.

    The African Drill


    In the African system the troops are drawn up in one battle line, which has been the usual practice until the present. The middle moira is composed of defenders, both wings of assault troops. In picking up speed, as though in pursuit, the center moira drops behind a bit maintaining its close-order formation, while the assault troops on both flanks begin to move out. Then, when it is time to turn back, one moira stays in position or slows down on the outside, while the other races back to the defenders. The wing which had halted then starts moving back to the main line, the other wing moves quickly out to meet it, riding off to one side, and in this way the two wings come face to face, but without colliding. There is another formation similar to this in which the troops are drawn up in the opposite way, that is the central moira consists of assault troops and the wings of defenders, but following the same movements.

    There is also Cantabrian circle, another manoeuvre used by Romans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    Meanwhile, for infantry to retreat without turning their backs, or for cavalry how to withdraw without routing, as Sextus Aurelius Victor describes, seems more akin to fighting retreats than countermarching.
    Only because your completely unfamiliar with Roman military history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix View Post
    EricD already covered at some length that there is little to no record of Roman combat training
    He is wrong, and you are wrong. History is not on your side as it contains, what you claim it does not.
    Last edited by Hanny; April 27, 2020 at 06:11 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  9. #109

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    I feel that my arguments and positions are being misconstrued and misrepresented. I also feel that this argument is getting bogged down in minutiae and line by line dispute. I would like to instead step back and lay out the "model" I propose for the character of the Roman army in its Republican period, starting again from first principles.

    Human beings go to battle to achieve a goal, generally speaking. Humans don't seek out actual life and death battle for the sake of having a battle. The Battle itself is not the goal, it is the means to the end. Caesar fought the Battle of Pharsalus not because he got tired of killing Gauls and decided to kill Romans for a change, but because killing Romans was necessary to achieve his sociopolitical aims. There are many motivations, some noble and some not, that take humans into combat. Plunder, social status, defence of homes and families, advancement of political goals, the list is endless. Powerful as all these motivations may, the instinct for self-preservation is equally powerful. The countless armies which have been routed and driven from the field across history demonstrate that armies can come to the field with fullest intention and expectation of conquering, and still end up running away in flight instead. People may be willing to kill for their goals, but generally are pretty reluctant to die for their goals. Some people are willing to die, and can act with a disregard for their lives, but they are distinctly the minority.

    We can generalize the various factors which maintains an army's will to fight (Goals, culture, unit spirit, leadership, training, preparation) as "morale" and, we can generalize their instinct for self-preservation and their fear of death as, well, "fear". Morale vs fear is perhaps the most fundamental struggle in a battle.

    In the pre-firearms era, missiles are generally less lethal, less scary, and easier to defend against than hand to hand combat. An attack (Like a thrown javelin) from further away can be seen coming and avoided or blocked much more easily than an attack from very close (Like a sword blow). Skirmishing at a distance has less perceived immediate risk to life and limb as hand to hand combat, and soldiers can move and choose to flee as necessary as skirmishers. Dedicated skirmishers are generally of lesser social status than troops which charge to hand to hand combat, and are given less respect because missile combat carries less risk. But it's easier to get troops to fight with missiles than in hand to hand, because there is less perceived risk, because it is perceived as safer.

    Hand to hand combat, in contrast, is incredibly exhausting and terrifying. It taxes the entire body and mind, and you can die quickly from a single mistake even wearing armour and carrying a shield. But humans are scared to come to hand to hand combat, because it is so lethal and so terrifying, and because the enemy is up close where the blows come quickly and you can be wounded to the death in seconds. It is too physically and psychologically strenuous to last a long time. Hand to hand combat settles a fight quickly, it is decisive.

    It is known that an army suffers far heavier casualties when it is routing and running away without fighting, than when it is standing and fighting. My experience fencing with blunt longswords has taught me that an opponent who stands his ground and is ready to strike you is very difficult to approach safely. Even if you attack and strike him, he can still often hit you back (The after blow problem, as we call it in HEMA). In a context with sharp weapons, even if you strike your opponent a lethal blow he may still kill you anyways with an after-blow, because he may not be dead immediately even with a lethal injury. This fact too means that people will be wary of hand to hand fighting.

    The army which runs away is slaughtered, the army which keeps fighting is not. Fear vs morale.

    One of the biggest challenges in warfare is getting troops to close in to hand to hand combat in the first place. Few people will wish to charge in alone, people feel safer in a group, but the very sense of safety in numbers given by a group can allow its members to lag back and not close in. Skirmishing with missiles, feeling safer to most people, can thus be a form of combat which is carried on for a long period of time without the battle being decided. Breaking the other side's morale, being so terrifying to the opponent that they would rather run away than stand and face you even though turning and running makes them vulnerable to being cut down as they flee, is the quickest and most effective way to win. The quickest way to do that is to charge to close combat, which in many cases can break an opposing army's will without a single actual blow being struck. So you need to get troops to go into close combat to end the battle decisively rather than have a merely prolonged skirmish which does not bring you closer to the goals which brought you to the battlefield in the first place, but this is a very difficult task because hand to hand combat is so terrifying and most people generally avoid it if they can. Some people, by upbringing or nature, are inclined to aggression, but without group support they may be merely be quickly killed for no benefit. So how do you get your troops to move forward into close combat, aggressively, and with enough group support so that the front-fighters are not just killed to no effect? If you can do that, you can quickly rout an enemy and achieve victory, but it is difficult.

    The Greeks and later Macedonians had one answer to this question: Pack the troops into a close formation, and give them long spears and later pikes. Their choice of this answer was, of course, motivated by numerous Greek and Macedonian cultural factors which I won't go into in depth (The influence of Homeric texts, the status of the hoplite class, Greek influence on Macedon, Macedon's nature as a feudal society possessing a peasantry accustomed to arbitrary labour corvee under the leadership of nobles, the list is endless).This has several advantages. Firstly, a pike like the sarissa lets the soldier fight from a range of 15 feet or more, which provides a similar perception of distance and thus safety as skirmishing with missiles does. He feels safer advancing because he need not come face to face with the opponent, and against enemies with shorter weapons may be able to strike them with impunity with less risk to himself. This sense of security will make him more willing to keep advancing. Secondly, the density of the ranks in a phalanx creates a perception of safety in numbers, safety in the group. It also compels the soldier to move forward, by the immediate physical presence of his comrades around him. The front-fighter in the phalanx cannot lag back or move back, because his fellow soldiers are immediately behind him and are both physically blocking his way and are psychologically reminding the soldier that his comrades are all around him and depending on him. The soldier in the middle of the phalanx can do little but move forward. For all these reasons, the Macedonian phalanx motivates soldiers to go forward into combat, it makes easier to go forward than to lag or back back, and its inexorable advance and dense thicket of pikes it presents is terrifying enough to rout and break enemy infantry.

    The Phalanx is a very good answer to the problems of warfare in its period, but it has its drawbacks. The Macedonian phalanx particularly requires quite a lot of training, much more so than is the norm for the period. Undisciplined movement in a dense formation like a phalanx can throw the whole group into disarray. Keeping troops fed and paid in order to keep them training is very expensive, and especially so in an agricultural society where every man who is practising as a soldier is a man who isn't working the fields or plying a trade. Organizing the training of large groups of specialist skills presents numerous organizational and leadership challenges. It also, in a sense, "wastes" the aggression of the more aggressive members of the group, because the whole phalanx can only keep together by advancing at a steady pace, and so it sacrifices the aggression of the individual in order to keep the group moving forward.

    The Romans, originating from a different cultural and social context than the Greeks or Macedonians and different military influences in Italy, devised their own distinctive answers to the problems presented in ancient war. I would guess that at some point they learned that attacking aggressively was often the key to breaking the enemy's morale and so gaining victory. Perhaps their long development of raids and skirmishes with neighbouring Latins, Etruscans, and Samnites taught them this, or perhaps it was a result of the cavalry orientation of their nobility. Either way, although they valued obedience and group cohesion as well, they seemed to have decided that aggression and attacking courage in an individual was to be allowed for, and praised, rather than to be strictly controlled as in the Hellenistic phalanx. It required control to keep within the parameters of militarily useful aggression, but it received a far wider degree of latitude than the Greeks allowed. Their soldierly ideal in the Republic can be seen in the story of Titus Manlius Torquatus, who sought and received permission from his commander and then fought a heroic duel with a Gallic champion which won him his title and his political career. This perhaps summarizes the two contradicting ideals in the Republican army: You should fight aggressively and boldly, but only when your commander gives you permission to do so. Military and martial success in the Republic was rewarded with social advancement and prestige, and both victorious duellists and victorious generals were greatly respected and admired in Republican Roman society.

    The Romans accepted that most of their soldiers would prefer to fight at a distance, and so chose to fight with excellent javelins and a large, strong shield well-designed to protect the individual in the missile exchange. But they wanted people to attack aggressively, they needed to attack aggressively or else skirmishing could go on for hours without result, and so they needed means to suddenly end a skirmish with a swift group charge into hand to hand distance. Without the support of the group, the individual gets killed, and so the individual won't attack without the group going forward as well. The charge alone could send the enemy reeling back without a blow needing to be struck. So they employed the sword, which requires the soldier to rush into very close range, and use the shield aggressively, to be able to stand a chance against a spear-armed opponent. Javelins and swords, requiring space to wield, required the formation to maintain space in combat. An open spacing also allows for the unit to rush forward or retire back easily, as the legionaries have space to move as they need in any direction and have less risk of jostling or off-balancing each other than a close order formation does. They chose the most charismatic, experienced, and aggressive soldiers to serve as centurions, providing their soldiers with local, immediately present leadership at the sharp edge of battle, and organized the battle line into small, distinct sub-units around these leaders, small enough to follow a single centurion but large enough to provide a level of group support (Physically and psychologically) to the aggressive individuals who would want to move forward most swiftly in the charge. The use of standards to indicate the front line of battle helped the soldier orient himself on the battlefield and kept groups together. Each century in the battle line can generate its own local charge wherever and whenever the enemy begins to recoil, can take initiative and respond to opportunities as they occur, and if worsted has its own leadership on hand to keep the troops together and provide motivation by example at the front in the battle (A role testified by the high casualties suffered by centurions).

    This mode of combat allows the aggression of its most glory-hungry soldiers to come to the forefront, and takes advantage of their hunger for glory. It provides leaders and standards for less aggressive soldiers to stick to in the heat of combat, and provides the support of the group to the more aggressive soldiers. The importance the Romans placed on letting people be aggressive is indicated by how they placed the youngest and poorest soldiers in their army (The ones with the most desire for social advancement) at the front line of battle, which reversed the normal practice of other armies of Mediterranean Antiquity in which the oldest and most experienced soldiers would make up the front rank.

    It does indeed require training for fighting in the republican Roman fashion. One must be a skilled swordsman and javelin-thrower, must be able to recognize your centurion and your standards in the confusion of battle and follow them to and fro as the battle dictates, and keep your place in the maniple. It requires balanced and nimble footwork, a level head, physical strength and endurance. It requires a high degree of mental endurance and grit to keep up this sort of back-and-forth cycle of missile combat and shock charges until the enemy is finally broken and routed entirely. Complicated close-order drill evolutions are less necessary, although some basic group drill would be required to move the maniple or century from the camp to the march and to battle. In comparison to either their Hellenistic counterparts, or to modern soldiers however, the specialized training requirements for this method are somewhat less and somewhat simpler. The ability of the Roman Republic to mobilize great levies of its strategic manpower in these wars was supported by the simpler training and equipping of legionaries. I am not saying that they never trained, only that their advantages weren't that they were much better than drill than everyone else (Although they probably were in many cases of dealing with inferior opponents, as when they crushed the Achaean League in 146 BC). Martial practice in Rome in a man's youth was of course carried out in the form of games and hunts and exercises in the Campus Martius, but their specifically military training seems to have been carried out while on active campaigns, under the discretion of the commander, and to have placed an emphasis on fitness and martial skill.

    The Romans, being a pragmatic and warlike people with many neighbouring enemies, did not leave everything in war to a single toss of the die as the classical Greeks who staked everything on a combat of phalanxes did. The Romans employed successive reserve lines of more experienced troops to lend resilience to their battle line, so that if repelled they could fall on the enemy again with greater force. This depth of reserves helps prevent a repulse or retreat from becoming a rout. Similarly a fortified camp provided a place to retreat to in the event of a lost battle, helping prevent defeat from becoming catastrophe (Not that they were immune to catastrophe either, just that they took steps to prevent it). The very act of digging in a fortified camp at the end of every day's long march was likely a factor in the tenacity and endurance of the Romans in battle, as it built physical endurance and accustomed a young soldier in their first campaign to hard labour and the stresses of life in wartime.

    The downside to having aggressive and glory-hungry soldiers willing to risk much to achieve their goals in battle (Victory, plunder, social status) is that they are less inclined to obedience, and their officers and leaders likewise often less inclined to caution or prudence. The Roman soldier seems to have believed, genuinely and often with good reason, that he was a better soldier and a better fighter than any enemy, and that all that the army need do to achieve victory was "lay the ship alongside the enemy at pistol shot", to borrow a later naval term. Any sign of hesitation or caution from the commanders could bring bitter recrimination from the officers and soldiers of the army, as Paullus experienced before Pydna. Military disobedience in the Roman army appears to have been generally inclined in the direction of too much aggression rather than too little. This may be a bias in the sources, or it may be due to the fact that the Romans punished cowardice by death, but disobedient aggression (If it didn't get you killed) just got a chewing out from the commander.

    This particular approach to war is what I detect by my readings of the most contemporary and detailed accounts of the Roman Army in the mid to late Republic we have, those being Caesar and Polybius. The Roman army in the Empire after Augustus's military reforms appears to have changed quite dramatically in character. This is to be expected in an army which had changed greatly in context, from the citizen's militia of a warlike Republic expanding against peer enemies, to the professional standing force of a vast Empire maintaining its borders and serving an autocratic monarch. There are many things to be critical about in Vegetius as a text, but the writings of Josephus and Tacitus do indicate a Roman army in the Empire which have evolved towards greater emphasis on engineering and sieges, and on the accompanying need for obedience and discipline which the Roman Emperor needed in the legions which ensured his rule. The role of aggression and courage, though still important, seems to have become subordinate to discipline in the Empire, in comparison to its place of cultural primacy in the Republic. I think that imposing the military ideals found in Imperial period texts onto Republican period Roman armies is an anachronism, and for that reason I prefer Caesar and Polybius to Livy when it comes to accounting for the military methods of the Roman Republic. Tacitus and Josephus and other Imperial-period texts may preserve a lot of useful information for us, but they reflect life in the Empire, not the Republic, and must be taken with according grains of salt.

    There are, of course, numerous other factors to consider in ancient war. Cavalry, sieges, logistics, generalship, leadership, finances, society, political and social organization and objectives, the list goes on endlessly. My original essay, though long, is only a brief overview of some relevant and often over looked aspects of Roman military culture, and this post is likewise brief and summary in nature. Like many revisionists in history or archaeology (Archaeology is my field), I have a tendency to make my points and opinions stridently and to seek out discourse and debate where established views can be challenged. If my views clash with received wisdom, it is because I think the received wisdom is flawed and needs to be improved. The study of history and of human civilization should always be open to revision and new thought.

  10. #110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I feel that my arguments and positions are being misconstrued and misrepresented.
    Revisionist often have this issue when their distortions are exposed, you intersperse plagiarism of your selected authors works with you own revisionist views, only those paying attention can see when and where you do this, as you plant these views between large portions of otherwise standard viewpoints,( which generally no one here has a problem with), and then claim those authors support your added bits, others and and i do a problem with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I am an unabashed revisionist when it comes to the history of the Roman army. Like many revisionists in history or archaeology (Archaeology is my field), I have a tendency to make my points and opinions stridently and to seek out discourse and debate where established views can be challenged. If my views clash with received wisdom, it is because I think the received wisdom is flawed and needs to be improved.

    The Roman legionaries were not very well-disciplined soldiers. The Roman legionaries were, in point of fact, often aggressive and individualistic to the point of foolishness and disobedience. Close reading of our best sources on the Roman army in its classical period will reveal something very different than what you expect.
    Except that is not the case. Your confirmation biased cheery picking skills were not up to the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    What I am saying, my thesis, is this: The Roman legionary was mostly an individual fighter in combat. In fact, I would say he was mostly a javelineer, a heavy skirmisher more than what you might call a heavy infantryman in the manner of the Greek or Macedonian phalangites. I believe the pilum was the weapon he used most of the time he spent in combat (In fact, I think javelins, stones, and missiles were the predominant weapons in all ancient warfare), and this view is supported in the academic world by the works of Philip Sabin, Alexander Zhmodikov, and J.E. Lendon. If you have a JSTOR account, I would greatly recommend the following articles: Roman Republican Heavy Infantrymen in Battle, by Zhmodikov, and The Face of Roman Battle, by Sabin.
    None of those authors believe or write that the pila was weapon he most used in combat as a heavy skirmisher. What you believe is contradicted by those same authors. Caesars Gallic war has more references to sword charges than to jav attacks, and all such jav attacks are followed by a charge.
    1 That being dispersed, they made a charge on them with drawn swords. It was a great hinderance to the Gauls in fighting, that, when several of their bucklers had been by one stroke of the (Roman) javelins pierced through and pinned fast together, as the point of the iron had bent itself, they could neither pluck it out, nor, with their left hand entangled, fight with sufficient ease; so that many, after having long tossed their arm about, chose rather to cast away the buckler from their hand, and to fight with their person unprotected.

    2Caesar, when he perceived that the seventh legion, which stood close by him, was also hard pressed by the enemy, directed the tribunes of the soldiers to effect a junction of the legions gradually, and make their charge upon the enemy with a double front; which having been done, since they brought assistance the one to the other, nor feared lest their rear should be surrounded by the enemy, they began to stand their ground more boldly, and to fight more courageously.

    3Which command having been most carefully obeyed, when any cohort had quitted the circle and made a charge, the enemy fled very precipitately.

    4Our men, raising a shout, quickly throw their javelins at the enemy. They, when, contrary to their expectation, they saw those whom they believed to be retreating, advance toward them with threatening banners, were not able to sustain even the charge, and, being put to flight at the first onslaught, sought the nearest woods; Labienus pursuing them with the cavalry, upon a large number being slain

    5Accordingly our men, upon the signal being given, vigorously made an attack upon the enemy, and the enemy so suddenly and rapidly rushed forward, that there was no time for casting the javelins at them. Throwing aside [therefore] their javelins, they fought with swords hand to hand.


    1 Pila first charge to contact with swords.
    2 Close order contest with swords.
    3 Charge no contact.
    4 Pila Charge no contact
    5 No time for pila contact with sword.


    5 have charges with swords, 2 has pila.


    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Human beings go to battle to achieve a goal, generally speaking. Humans don't seek out actual life and death battle for the sake of having a battle. The Battle itself is not the goal, it is the means to the end. Caesar fought the Battle of Pharsalus not because he got tired of killing Gauls and decided to kill Romans for a change, but because killing Romans was necessary to achieve his sociopolitical aims. There are many motivations, some noble and some not, that take humans into combat. Plunder, social status, defense of homes and families, advancement of political goals, the list is endless. Powerful as all these motivations may, the instinct for self-preservation is equally powerful. The countless armies which have been routed and driven from the field across history demonstrate that armies can come to the field with fullest intention and expectation of conquering, and still end up running away in flight instead. People may be willing to kill for their goals, but generally are pretty reluctant to die for their goals. Some people are willing to die, and can act with a disregard for their lives, but they are distinctly the minority.

    Not how Livy or Polybius explain why Rome went to war, but then they are not using 20 and 21 century authors like you are doing.


    Romans as a state went to war because it was their duty, to Romanise the world, bringing a Pax Romana ,the Gods sanctioned it, demanded it, (Jupiter "On the Romans I impose no boundaries of time or place: I have granted them empire without end." ) so they were doing the will of the gods when they won. Cicero "Our people, through repeatedly defending their allies, have ended up as master of the world."
    Livy
    "There was one nation in the world which would fight for the liberties of others at its own cost, with its own labor, and at its own danger. It was even ready to cross the sea to make sure there was no unjust rule anywhere and that everywhere justice, right, and law would prevail".
    Polybius
    "For who is so worthless or indolent as not to which to know by what means and under what system of polity the Romans in less than fifty-three years have succeeded in subjecting nearly the whole of the inhabited world to their sole government, a thing unique in history?"


    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I think that imposing the military ideals found in Imperial period texts onto Republican period Roman armies is an anachronism, and for that reason I prefer Caesar and Polybius to Livy when it comes to accounting for the military methods of the Roman Republic. Tacitus and Josephus and other Imperial-period texts may preserve a lot of useful information for us, but they reflect life in the Empire, not the Republic, and must be taken with according grains of salt.
    Depends what he writes and where he got the information from:

    Vegetius says that new recruits received 'daily training for four or more months' before before formed into a legion. He was writing at the end of the 4th century AD, but drawing on sources from much earlier times. In this case, his source was M. Porcius Cato's similarly-named de Re Militaris from the mid 2nd century BC. It also from that work we know when teh gladiators training stake was introduced into legionary training, morning and after noon a soldier practised killing strikes inside his usual alloted space in the line of battle

    'Each recruit would plant a single post in the ground so that it could not move and protruded six feet. Against the post as if against an adversary the recruit trained himself using the foil and hurdle like a sword and shield, so that now he aimed at as it were the head and face, now threatened the flanks, then tried to cut the hamstrings and legs, backed off, came on, sprang, aimed at the post with every method of attack and art of combat, as though it were an actual opponent.'

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0posts&f=false


    http://www.digitalattic.org/home/war...index.php#b100
    THE ROMAN DISCIPLINE THE CAUSE OF THEIR GREATNESS


    Victory in war does not depend entirely upon numbers or mere courage; only skill and discipline will insure it. We find that the Romans owed the conquest of the world to no other cause than continual military training, exact observance of discipline in their camps and unwearied cultivation of the other arts of war. Without these, what chance would the inconsiderable numbers of the Roman armies have had against the multitudes of the Gauls? Or with what success would their small size have been opposed to the prodigious stature of the Germans? The Spaniards surpassed us not only in numbers, but in physical strength. We were always inferior to the Africans in wealth and unequal to them in deception and stratagem. And the Greeks, indisputably, were far superior to us in skill in arts and all kinds of knowledge.


    But to all these advantages the Romans opposed unusual care in the choice of their levies and in their military training. They thoroughly understood the importance of hardening them by continual practice, and of training them to every maneuver that might happen in the line and in action. Nor were they less strict in punishing idleness and sloth. The courage of a soldier is heightened by his knowledge of his profession, and he only wants an opportunity to execute what he is convinced he has been perfectly taught. A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    In the pre-firearms era, missiles are generally less lethal, less scary, and easier to defend against than hand to hand combat. An attack (Like a thrown javelin) from further away can be seen coming and avoided or blocked much more easily than an attack from very close (Like a sword blow). Skirmishing at a distance has less perceived immediate risk to life and limb as hand to hand combat, and soldiers can move and choose to flee as necessary as skirmishers. Dedicated skirmishers are generally of lesser social status than troops which charge to hand to hand combat, and are given less respect because missile combat carries less risk. But it's easier to get troops to fight with missiles than in hand to hand, because there is less perceived risk, because it is perceived as safer.


    Hand to hand combat, in contrast, is incredibly exhausting and terrifying. It taxes the entire body and mind, and you can die quickly from a single mistake even wearing armour and carrying a shield. But humans are scared to come to hand to hand combat, because it is so lethal and so terrifying, and because the enemy is up close where the blows come quickly and you can be wounded to the death in seconds. It is too physically and psychologically strenuous to last a long time. Hand to hand combat settles a fight quickly, it is decisive.
    The Romans tell us how they fought.

    Appian, Celtica (fragmenta), ch.1, s.3, Caius Sulpicius commanded the men of the first rank to simultaneously hurl their hyssoi (Pila) at the Boii and then immediately kneel down so that the second rankers could do the same. These in turn should do the same and so on until all had discharged their pila. Then they should leap up with a shout and charge together.

    Rome like sparta, built its success on having a beter military machine than those it went to war with, so that inferior numbers by superior methods could defeat greater numbers, without discipline inherent in the methods neither Rome or Sparta would have prevailed.

    Fear factor/ quality v quantity/losses in a rout.


    Spartan military achievements in the 4th century.

    Wins
    494 Sepiea 25 5000 4000 6000
    480 Thermopolea 1 100 2700 1300 8000
    480 Thermopolea 2 100 2800 1250 8000
    480 Thermopolea 3 150 2650 550 7000
    480 Thermopolea 4 50 2600 300 8000
    479 Platea Moleis 250 6500 2500 22000
    470 Tegea 100 5000 400 5000
    464 Dipaea 40 2000 300 4000
    457 Tanagra 1000 11500 2500 14000
    423 Lynsestis 20 3000 400 1750
    418 Mantinea 400 9100 1100 8000
    403 Porus 50 1500 100 1000
    403 Halea Marsh 100 7500 180 3000

    Totals:
    Spartan/Allies
    strength 53850
    Spartan/Allies
    losses 2385

    Opponents
    Strength 99750
    losses 16300

    Winning: Generally outnumbered c2:1
    number of spartans to effect a kill 3
    number of Opponents to effect a kill 42


    Odd of staying alive while winning;
    spartan 1 in 23
    opponents 1 in 6

    Comments, in winning the spartan side is four times likly to survive, and 14 times more efficient at inflicting a casualty.

    losses
    480 Thermopolea5 950 1200 1000 7000
    465 Stynlekares 300 300 30 600
    461 Oeneo 150 2000 100 4000
    425 Spaceteria 128 420 0 1000
    424 Cytherea 100 1000 60 2000
    424 Cotyra 20 300 10 1000
    412 Panormus 80 500 20 800
    411 Athens1 30 600 0 300
    411 Cyzicus 15 750 50 300
    409 Ta Kerata 470 2200 50 1000
    407 Garium 250 1250 50 2500


    Totals:
    Spartan/Allies
    strength 6190
    losses 2493
    Openents 20500
    losses 1640


    Losing: Generally outnumbered c3:1
    number of spartans to effect a kill 4
    number of Opponents to effect a kill 8

    Odd of staying alive while Losing:
    spartan 1 in 2.5
    opponents 1 in 12

    Comments, when losing the spartan side is 5 times more likely to survive and twice as likely to inflict a casualty.

    Combined totals
    Spartan/Allies
    strength 60140
    losses 4978
    Opponents 120500
    losses 17940

    Spartan/Allies: 3 spartans to effect a kill, odd of staying alive in doing so: 1 in 12
    All comers: 24 to effect a kill, odds of odd of staying alive in doing so: 1 in 6.

    Comment, overal the spartan side is 8 times more likely to inflict a casualty, and twice as likely to survive.

    New form of opponents tactical approach, 50 deep, phalanx
    Spartan v Theban in 4th and 3rd century.

    418 Mantinea 400 9100 1100 8000
    394 Nemea 1100 23000 2800 24000
    394 2nd Corona 350 15000 600 20000

    Spartan/Allies
    strength 47100
    losses 1850
    Opponents 52000
    losses 4500


    Spartan/Allies: 10 spartans to effect a kill, odd of staying alive in doing so: 1 in 25
    Thebans: 28 to effect a kill, odds of odd of staying alive in doing so: 1 in 12.

    Comment at even odds, a spartan was 3 times as likely to inflict a casualty and twice as likely to survive.

    4th century Data from https://www.amazon.com/Land-Battles-5th ... 0786467738
    3rd century data from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Battles-R ... 0826430155
    Last edited by Hanny; April 28, 2020 at 06:31 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  11. #111

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    It is known that an army suffers far heavier casualties when it is routing and running away without fighting, than when it is standing and fighting.
    Depends, to fight against Sparta, meant you had to bring 3:1 odds to make the odds in your favour of winning, in doing so you will lose 8% of this number, if you brought less your probably going to lose and suffer 16%.


    If you brought 2:1, and had 10,000 you can expect to lose the engagement and1600 men, or if that same 10,000 had a 3:1 advantage, you can expect to lose 800.
    Sparta outnumbered 2:1, ie 5000 would prob win, and lose 200, or if had 3,333 and was outnumbered 3:1, it will probably lose, and lose 1333.


    Spartan/Allies lost 4% of their strength when defeating Opponents, and had half the Opponents numbers
    Spartan/Allies lost 40% of their strength when being defeating Opponents, and had a third Opponents numbers


    Opponents of Sparta lost 16% of their strength when defeated by Spartans, and had twice the Spartan numbers.
    Opponents of Sparta lost 8% of their strength when defeating by Spartans, and had thrice the Spartan numbers.
    Last edited by Hanny; April 28, 2020 at 11:38 AM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  12. #112

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    It is rather surprising that I keep being accused of misquoting or misrepresenting the authors whom I am citing in support of my arguments, given that I wrote this essay and came up with this argument on the basis of their works. It is true that my position is a synthesis, opinions of my own informed by the scholarship of several different academics. It also should not be a controversial thing to cite an academic on one particular aspect or argument from their work, even if you disagree with other aspects or positions of their work. In this thread: I cited Ardant du Picq, not because I believe his model for Roman tactics is the most accurate (I think that aspect is rather dated and too heavily influenced by his 19th century military experience), but because I think du Picq's insights on the importance and dominating influences of morale and fear are very important. I did not cite du Picq on Roman tactics, I cited du Picq on the impact of fear in battle, because on that topic I think du Picq's writings are very accurate. I would cite J.E. Lendon, Philip Sabin, and Alexander Zhmodikov as the most influential modern academics of my views on Roman behaviours in battle, and I maintain that as a whole they support the main thrust of what I have to say even if they as individuals differ with each other or with my own views on some of the specifics.

    I am going to provide the most salient quotes from the works of Lendon and Sabin. I can't quote their entire works, but I can provide some quite extensive and exhaustive quotes which should illuminate how I drew the conclusions that I have from the works of these scholars. I have already quoted Zhmodikov previously, and I maintain that academic support for my position can be found in his work, which you can read quite easily on JSTOR and see for yourself.

    Excerpts from The Face of Roman Battle, Philip Sabin, 2000

    "It is obviously perilous to draw comparisons with the much better documented infantry clashes of the gunpowder era, since military technology has changed so much over the intervening centuries. However, the instincts and psychological pressures affecting massed formations of troops in close proximity to similar opposing formations are unlikely to have changed anything like as much over what is an insignificant interval in evolutionary terms. Hence, several recent scholars have made good use of modern findings regarding the psychology of men in battle as a contribution to their analyses of ancient morale. When a pattern emerges from the ancient evidence about human behaviour in combat, it has greater credibility and resonance if it chimes with modern experience - Caesar's description of men slipping away from the rear of his hard-pressed cohorts at the Sambre (BG 2.25) is a case in point, since this accords exactly with how Napoleonic infantry columns seem to have broken from the back rather than the front" (Pg 4)

    "Four features in particular set the context for any attempt to explain the mechanics of Roman infantry combat. These are the duration of the clashes, the casualties inflicted on both sides, the mobility of the two fighting lines, and the role played by supporting ranks behind those initially engaged. I will discuss each of these four features in turn.

    As regards duration, Roman infantry clashes were sometimes decided very quickly by one side giving way at (or even before) the first shock. Livy describes this happening to the Romans themselves at the Allia and Herdonea, and to their enemies at Ibera and Agrigentum (5.38, 23.29, 25.2I, 25.40). Goldsworthy cites several similar instances from late Republican and early Imperial times, and argues that such quick decisions were commoner in these periods than in earlier or later eras of Roman history. More usually, however, Roman infantry battles involved a drawn-out engagement before either side finally broke and ran. The crucial question is, was the duration of these more prolonged engagements generally measured in minutes or in hours? Our sources certainly speak in terms of the latter. Livy explicitly describes particular Roman battles as lasting several hours (e.g. 22.6, 23.40, 24.15, 25.I9, 27.2, 27. I2), Plutarch (Aem. 22) says that Pydna was decided unusually speedily in just one hour, and Vegetius (3.9) claims that battles were usually resolved in two or three hours. One might suspect that these statements by later writers are ill-informed, or include other phases such as preliminary skirmishing as well as the actual heavy infantry clash. However, Caesar makes very clear in his account of Ilerda (BC I.45-7) that an isolated contest between several cohorts of legionaries could indeed last as long as five hours" (Pg 4)

    "The second important characteristic of Roman infantry battles concerns the respective casualties inflicted. Krentz has studied casualty statistics for hoplite engagements, and has concluded that the victors lost an average of 5 per cent and the defeated side an average of 14 per cent of their strength. Casualties among the losers in Roman battles were frequently far heavier, with over half the defeated army often being killed or taken prisoner according to our sources. For example, Polybius tells us that the Carthaginians at Zama suffered 20,000 dead and almost as many captured, only a few escaping, while at Cynoscephalae, 8,ooo were killed and 5,000 taken prisoner out of Philip's 25,500 strong force (Polybius 15.I4, I8.27; Livy 33.4).

    Such figures may contain some understandable exaggeration by the victors, but the difference from the earlier situation is readily explicable in terms of what happened after one side broke. In hoplite clashes, the victors were hard pressed to catch fleeing adversaries who had thrown away their heavy shields, even had they wished to do so once clear superiority in the agon had been established (cf. Thucydides 5.73). After Roman battles, by contrast, defeated troops sometimes found themselves encircled and incapable of flight (as at Cannae), while others were subjected to a drawn-out pursuit like those after Pydna or the defeat of Ariovistus, in which they were mercilessly slaughtered from behind by faster enemy cavalry (Plutarch, Aem. 2I-2; Caesar, BG I.53). The many sculptural depictions of Roman cavalry riding down defeated foes illustrate the importance placed on following up a victory in this way (cf. Caesar, BG 4.26, 35; Josephus, BJ3.I3-2I).
    What is more interesting is to examine how heavily the victors suffered during Roman infantry clashes which went on for a considerable time before one side broke. Sometimes their losses could be severe, as in the proverbial 'Pyrrhic victories' of the early third century B.C. (Plutarch, Pyrrh. I7, 2I), but this was very much the exception rather than the rule. Polybius gives figures for engagements during the Punic Wars which suggest that the average death toll for the victors was around 5 per cent, the same as for the winners in Greek hoplite clashes

    [...]

    One of two conclusions seems inescapable - either the losses during the fighting itself were heavily one-sided, with one antagonist's troops being killed without being able to make effective reply, or else both sides suffered relatively limited overall casualties before the rout, with the real danger for the losing troops (especially those incapacitated by wounds) coming only after they turned and fled. These two models in fact represent two ends of a spectrum, and the likeliest interpretation is that different clashes could fit virtually anywhere along that spectrum

    [...]

    Whatever the balance in individual cases, the key point is that even the most prolonged of Roman infantry contests did not usually produce greater mutual slaughter than in the (possibly much briefer) clashes of the hoplite era." (Pg 5-6)

    "The third important characteristic of Roman infantry engagements concerns the mobility of the fighting lines. We know that infantry formations could give ground during combat, either by deliberate choice or under irresistible enemy pressure, without fleeing altogether. At Cannae, the Punic infantry centre was transformed from a convex into a concave formation under the Roman onslaught, thereby trading space for time and helping to suck the legionaries into Hannibal's trap (Polybius 3.II3-I5). At Cynoscephalae and Pydna, the Romans themselves were forced back by the Macedonian phalanx, thereby sealing its doom by drawing it onto poor terrain or exposing its vulnerable flank to other Roman forces (Livy 33.8-9; Plutarch, Aem. 20). Polybius described this vulnerability of the phalanx to differential advances and retreats as a key generic weakness compared to the more flexible Roman forces, but it is clear from his account of Sellasia that even Macedonian pikemen could sometimes recover and go on to win after being pushed back by the enemy (2.68-9, I 8.3 I -2).

    To have such grand tactical significance, these retrograde movements must have involved hundreds rather than tens of yards (cf. Plutarch, Cleom. 28). Caesar (BG 1.25-6) writes that the Helvetii fell back no less than a mile after getting the worst of the initial clash, before resuming fierce resistance from their new uphill position. Exactly how the withdrawals were carried out is difficult to reconstruct. Some descriptions of Celtic retirements suggest that the troops simply turned and ran, and then rallied once they had temporarily outdistanced pursuit (Livy 22.47; Caesar, BG 2.23). However, it is hard to envisage more heavily equipped troops succeeding with such an approach in the face of an active opponent, and other sources describe a more measured withdrawal in which forces stepped back gradually while still facing the enemy (cf. Polybius 2.68-9; Appian, BC 4. I 28).

    The actual means by which troops were 'pushed back' by their adversaries is especially hard to discern, given the possible confusion between metaphor and reality. Appian evocatively wrote that Octavian's troops at Philippi 'pushed back the enemy's line as though they were revolving a heavy mechanism' (BC 4.128), but, as in the othismos debate, the question of what was really going on in practice depends critically on our model of infantry combat as a whole." (Pg 6)

    "Before considering this issue, I will discuss the final key characteristic of Roman infantry clashes, namely the role played by supporting ranks behind those initially engaged.

    Sometimes such troops were simply used to add depth to the main fighting formation, as had been the norm in hoplite warfare. This applied particularly to the adversaries of the Romans, and especially to Hellenistic pikemen, as in the deployment of the Seleucid phalanx at Magnesia no less than thirty-two ranks deep (Livy 37.40). However, the Romans themselves rarely used supporting ranks in this manner, and when they did employ unusually deep infantry formations against Xanthippus in 255 B.C. and against Hannibal at Cannae, the disastrous outcome was quite the opposite of what Epaminondas achieved at Leuctra (Polybius I.33-4, 3.113-17). Nor were deep formations particularly successful against Roman troops themselves, as shown by the repeated victories of legionaries over phalangites and by the fact that Pompey's ten deep lines at Pharsalus were overcome by Caesar's much shallower formations (Caesar, BC 3.88-94; Frontinus, Strat. 2.3.22).

    The Roman alternative to forming a single battle line many men deep was, of course, to deploy their infantry in multiple lines, be it within the mid-Republican framework of hastati, principes, and triarii or in the famous triplex acies of the later cohort legion (Polybius 6.21-4; Caesar, BC I.83). There is no space here to go into the many complex issues surrounding the tactical and grand tactical employment of this distinctive multiple-line system - such an analysis would require a long article in its own right. For our present purposes, namely to understand the face of Roman battle at the front line itself, it will suffice to highlight two significant consequences of the multiple-line system for any model we might consider.

    First, since the Romans clearly thought it more worthwhile to use multiple lines than to form one single deep formation as was the norm in other ancient armies, our model of Roman infantry combat must explain this preference. Multiple lines were employed in many ways, including for wide-ranging grand tactical manoeuvres by troops from the supporting lines as in battles at the Metaurus, the Great Plains, Zama, Cynoscephalae, Second Chaeronea, and Pharsalus (Polybius 11.1, 14.8, I5.14, i8.26; Plutarch, Sulla i 9; Caesar, BC 3. 89-94). However, the primary purpose of the multiple- line system seems to have been to allow fresh troops to replace or reinforce tired ones in the front line itself. Livy describes this process clearly for the manipular legion (8.8), albeit in an anachronistically early context, and Caesar speaks of fresh cohorts replacing tired ones at Ilerda and Pharsalus (BC I.45-6, 3.94). The ancient authors repeatedly state that it was this advantage of having fresh men fighting tired ones which gave the Romans such an edge over opponents who were in equal or greater overall numbers, but massed in a single fighting line (cf. Livy 9.32, 34.14-I5; Onasander 22). Hence, any model we might develop of Roman infantry combat must be one in which having fresh troops in the fighting line matters at least as much as the physical and psychological advantages of greater formation depth.

    The second and related point is that our model must be one in which the physical passage of lines to accomplish this line relief would have been a feasible proposition. Scholars have long debated the practicalities of the famous 'chequerboard' deployment of Roman legions, addressing such intractable issues as how wide the gaps between maniples or cohorts would have been, whether and how these gaps were closed before combat, and how they were opened again to allow an engaged first line to admit or withdraw through its supports without making itself catastrophically vulnerable to enemy penetrations in the process. It is very hard to find satisfactory answers to these questions, and so any model of infantry combat at the level of individual soldiers which makes it easier to understand how the line relief process may have worked will be much more convincing as a consequence." (Pg 6-7)


    "The clashes between legionaries and phalangites were very much a special case, and the normal adversaries of the Romans in the Western Mediterranean and Northern Europe were other infantry equipped broadly like themselves, with large shields, javelins or spears, and swords.38 If the more symmetrical contests between these adversaries did not take the form of a close-packed shoving match, then the obvious alternative model (as in the hoplite controversy) is of a charge into contact followed by a succession of hand-to-hand duels between the opposing troops.39 This is the image popularized by a whole string of Hollywood epics, and (in amended form) it represents the 'default consensus' among scholars based on numerous references to such melees in the ancient sources. However, on closer analysis, this model proves to be almost as problematic as the othismos image as a way of explaining the overall characteristics of Roman infantry combat.

    [...]

    So what is wrong with this image of Roman infantry clashes consisting of continuous front-line duelling with swords and spears? The most important problem is that of time. If the contests could drag on for hours, it is impossible to imagine individual front-rankers managing the sustained physical effort required, even given the Roman practice of training with weighted equipment (Vegetius I. I I). Although this problem would certainly explain the Roman emphasis on replacing tired units with fresh ones using their line relief system, that system alone seems insufficient to provide the endurance needed, especially since the supporting lines were sometimes used for grand tactical manoeuvres rather than line relief. Furthermore, although our sources do record several instances of fresh Celtic and Punic troops relieving tired comrades (Livy 7.2, 30.18; Caesar, BG 3.5, 7.85), there is no sense that this practice was anything like as routine in those armies as it was in the Roman case.

    Some have answered this objection by suggesting that each rank within a maniple or cohort progressively replaced the one in front, in a close combat equivalent of the early modern caracole system for delivering fire. However, there is no clear ancient evidence for such a constant rotation of ranks within heavy infantry units, and plenty of arguments against it. The system could hardly have been unique to the Romans, since it would have given them a crushing advantage in combat endurance without even needing the line relief mechanism. The Greeks are known to have placed their best men in the front and back ranks (Xenophon, Mem. 3.i8), and Roman centurions seem to have fought continuously in the front rank of their units, hence the high casualty rate they sometimes sustained. Appian does say on two occasions when describing combat between legionaries that wounded front-rankers were carried away (presumably between the files) and replaced by the men behind (BC 3.68, 4.i28), and Caesar describes how the troops defending the rampart of Galba's besieged camp were too few for wounded or weary men to be replaced as the Gallic attackers were able to do during the six-hour assault (BG 3.4-6), but to generalize this into a routine system in which each file in the open field was effectively a queue of troops waiting to take their turn to fight goes far beyond the evidence we have.

    There is, in any case, an even more decisive objection to the image of prolonged and uninterrupted sword duelling, namely that (like a continuous othismos) such a contest would surely have produced far greater mutual casualties before one side took to flight and exposed itself to one-sided slaughter during the pursuit. I have already shown that the victors usually suffered less than 5 per cent fatalities, with many of these casualties no doubt occurring when parts of their own forces were pushed back or even routed, and not simply as a statistical consequence of a prolonged attritional duel. It is very hard to see how an infantry battle array a mile long and containing tens of thousands of troops could remain within arm's reach of a steady enemy for hours on end without enough of the weapon strokes getting through to cause far greater losses even to the eventual victors." (Pg 10-11)

    "It has long been considered axiomatic that pila, and similar throwing weapons used by non-Roman heavy infantry, were a mere precursor to the real combat with swords and spears, and were hurled in massed volleys during the charge to contact. Our sources do indeed often speak of legionaries throwing pila and then drawing their swords to charge, or even of clashes in which the two sides closed so quickly that there was no time for pila to be hurled before the collision (cf. Livy 9.13, 28.2; Caesar, BG 1.25, 1.52, 2.23; BC 3.46, 3.93). However, Zhmodikov points out that there are other passages in the sources which paint a rather more equivocal picture.

    For one thing, several officers and commanders who were killed or wounded in Roman infantry battles are reported to have been hit by a missile weapon rather than transfixed by a sword or spear, even though this was often long after the contest began (cf. Livy 8.9, 24.42, 25.19, 29.2, 41.18). Moreover, Zhmodikov cites frequent references to missiles in a wide range of battle accounts, for example at Emporiae, where Livy (34.14) reports an indecisive period of missile exchanges, followed only later by a charge into hand-to-hand combat. Caesar describes several infantry contests in which missiles were used on a protracted basis, most notably at Ilerda, where he says that pila were exhausted only after five hours of continuous combat (BG I.26, 2.27, 4.32, 5.33-5; BC 1.45-6). The stalemate at Ilerda was broken only when Caesar's men drew their swords and charged the enemy, although his account does not make clear whether this was the first time sword-fighting had occurred during the prolonged engagement.

    Front-rankers would clearly have found it difficult to retain their javelins after launching or receiving a charge, since their hands would be occupied with shield and sword - the horizontal grip of the scutum made it impractical for pila to be retained in the left hand. However, the many supporting ranks could well have held on to their javelins for future use, even after a hand-to-hand clash had occurred. A relief from the fortress at Mainz shows a soldier with drawn sword backed up by another carrying a pilum, and Plutarch (Sulla I8-I9) explicitly describes a constant stream of javelins and fire-bolts being launched from the Roman rear ranks during the clash with the slave phalanx at the second battle of Chaeronea. There are also several references in the sources to spent missiles being picked up for re-use (cf. Livy IO.29; Sallust, By 58). The very fact that later versions of the pilum were designed to break on impact (Plutarch, Mar. 25) indicates that re-use of enemy weapons was common, hence supporting the idea that the employment of javelins was not necessarily confined to a brief volley during the initial charge." (Pg 12)

    "A few years ago, I put forward my own model of Roman infantry combat, based heavily on psychological considerations and on deductions from more recent experience.

    We know from eighteenth and nineteenth-century engagements that bayonets caused only a tiny proportion of battle casualties, but bayonet charges do seem to have been decisive in triggering routs. The explanation for this apparent paradox seems to be that cold steel held a unique terror for troops, over and above that caused by the more random and impersonal perils of shot and shell. The morale of opposed infantry formations appears to have been closely interlinked, such that if one side could nerve itself to launch a bayonet charge in the conviction that the enemy would not stand, the enemy did indeed break before contact. Conversely, if mutual deterrence was maintained, then the combat could bog down into a bloody close-range firefight between the opposing lines, often lasting for hours.

    The mid-nineteenth-century French officer Ardant du Picq was closely familiar with such dynamics, and produced an insightful comparative study of ancient and modern battle in which he argued that massed combat in both eras was dominated by the overpowering instincts of fear and self-preservation among the individual troops on both sides. Du Picq wrote that, 'Man does not enter battle to fight, but for victory. He does everything that he can to avoid the first and obtain the second'. As a consequence, face-to-face combat was inevitably a highly traumatic and tentative affair." (Pg 13)

    "So what does all this mean for the many cases in Roman infantry battles where neither side broke at the outset, and the combat turned into a prolonged affair? I suggest that close-range sword duelling between steady bodies of infantry must have been a highly unstable state, and one that would require massive injections of physical and psychological energy either to initiate or to sustain for any length of time. It was clearly only the availability of protective armour and shields that made such duels endurable at all, given their apparent intolerability for the unprotected troops of more modern times. I would argue that there must also have been a more physically and psychologically sustainable 'default state' within protracted Roman infantry contests, into which the combatants would naturally relapse if the initial advances by either side failed to trigger an early rout.

    We can see such 'default states' in a wide variety of other forms of human combat. Anthropological observations of primitive tribes confirm the image in heroic poetry of protracted stand-offs in which individual warriors would move forward to do battle and then retreat into the safety of the supporting mass.61 Even when lethal weapons are not involved, we can see similar stand-offs between rioting mobs and lines of police, or at an individual level between duelling boxers, who spend much more time circling each other warily and looking for an opening than they do in the actual flurries of blow and counter-blow. I suggest that the default state in protracted Roman infantry combats would have been similar to that between eighteenth- and nineteenth-century infantry, namely a small separation of the two lines so that they could exchange insults and missile fire but were not quite close enough for hand-to-hand duelling.

    […]

    I find it very hard to believe that all the prolonged infantry clashes which took place in Roman battles were purely missile duels, with sword fighting occurring only at the very end. Such a radical image seems to me incompatible with the many references in the literature to true hand-to-hand fighting, and it makes it difficult to explain how one side could 'push back' its adversaries during the course of the contest. Hence, unlike in the stalemated firefights of more recent times, I believe that in most Roman battles the lines did sporadically come into contact, as one side or the other surged forward for a brief and localized flurry of hand-to-hand combat. The flurry of combat would end when one side got the worst of the exchange, and its troops would step back to re-impose the 'safety distance' while brandishing their weapons to deter immediate enemy pursuit.

    This kind of dynamic stand-off punctuated by episodes of hand-to-hand fighting could continue for some time until one side finally lost its ability to resist, thereby breaking the bonds of mutual deterrence and encouraging the opposing troops to surge forward and begin killing in earnest, their gnawing tension and fear now released and converted into an orgy of blood lust. The most common mechanism for such a transformation would obviously be the panic of the losing troops due to the breaching of their line, a psychological shock such as the death of the general, or the sheer accumulation of casualties and fatigue. Livy's detailed account of the initial fighting at Zama (30.34) seems to me to fit perfectly with such a model of sporadic close combat:

    […]

    Livy's references to 'repeated charges' and to steady advances and withdrawals before the final rout accord very well with the image of sporadic surges forward from a shifting stand-off position. However, like most other ancient battle pieces, the account is far from unambiguous, and parts of it could be interpreted more literally in terms of a physical othismos.64 When one adds to this characteristic ambiguity the additional problem of the unreliability of such descriptions, especially those by non-military authors like Livy, writing long after the battle concerned, it becomes apparent why the 'pure' approach of relying on ancient sources alone as a guide to ancient battle mechanics is so sadly deficient. That is why it is so important to test possible models against wider yardsticks, in the form of the overall characteristics of Roman infantry engagements and the enduring psychological strains upon men in mortal combat.


    The model of Roman infantry combat as a dynamic balance of mutual dread fits the overall characteristics of the phenomenon far better than do the alternative images of a protracted othismos or continuous sword duelling. It helps to explain why some clashes were decided at the first onset while others dragged on for hours. It accounts for the relatively low casualties suffered by the victorious army, since periods of close range stand-off would be far less bloody than the equivalent firefights in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, given the much lower numbers of missiles available and the fact that the great majority would be blocked by the large infantry shields (cf. Livy 28.2, 28.32-3; Caesar, BGI .26; Josephus, BJ 3. I I2-I4).65 The model also suggests how one side could gradually 'push' another back over distances of hundreds of yards, since if it was always the same side that gave way after the sporadic flurries of hand-to-hand duelling, the accumulation of such small withdrawals would have significant grand tactical impact over time

    Why would parts of each line sporadically surge forward into contact? The key individuals would surely be the 'natural fighters' and junior leaders, who would encourage a concerted lunge forward to overcome the understandable reluctance among their comrades to be the first to advance into the wall of enemy blades. Roman sub- units such as centuries, maniples, and cohorts offered an ideal basis for such localized charges, whereas tribal warriors would mount less disciplined attacks led by the bolder spirits among them. The many accounts of Roman standard-bearers carrying or flinging their standards towards the enemy to embolden the onslaught of their comrades (as at Pydna and in Caesar's invasion of Britain) are of obvious relevance in this connection (Plutarch, Aem. 20; Caesar, BG 4.25). Across an overall infantry battlefront many hundreds of yards wide, the back and forth movement of individual sub-units or warrior bands just the crucial few yards to engage in or disengage from hand-to-hand combat would not prejudice the maintenance of the overall line.

    If such flurries of sword fighting were not quickly decisive, then sheer physical and nervous exhaustion, coupled with the killing or wounding of the key junior leaders who were inspiring their men to engage, would lead the two sides to separate back to the default stand-off. The fact that even phalangites could step back facing the enemy (as at Sellasia) indicates that there was usually sufficient 'give' within infantry formations to allow front-rankers to shy away from their adversaries without bumping immediately into the man behind. Indeed, when this flexibility was removed and troops became too closely packed together, thereby hindering their ability to use their weapons properly or to step back from clashes which were not going well, they risked exposing themselves to one-sided slaughter. Something like this clearly happened at Cannae, and it could well be that a key reason why flank and rear attacks were so devastating was not just the psychological shock they caused but the fact that they crowded the victims in on one another, removing their ability to re-establish the 'safety distance' and so to recover their cohesion and fighting effectiveness." (Pg 13-16)

    From Sabin's work, I have derived my overall model for Roman battle on a mechanical level: A stand off outside of hand to hand range, in which the two sides fling missiles and insults at each other, punctuated at times by the "bayonet charge" led by the centurion and other aggressive individuals with drawn gladius, shocking the enemy into a local retreat. Sometimes the gladius charge breaks the enemy before the first blow, but when the enemy is steady and resolute then there are repeated charges and brief exchanges, advances and retreats, until the enemy has been so battered in spirit that they break and rout. Together with Zhmodikov's emphasis on the importance of the pila in this tactical system, I think they have the most correct model for Roman battle on a mechanical level at the moment.


    Excerpts from Soldiers & Ghosts, J.E. Lendon, 2005

    "Roman discipline. This has been the explanation for Roman success at least since Machiavelli’s Arte della Guerra (1521). For its discipline, modern soldiers emulate the army of the Romans; for its discipline, scholars praise it; for its discipline, the public admires it. Iron discipline is basic to the odd popular appeal of the Roman army. A perfectly disciplined, machinelike Roman army long ago became an intellectual navigational marker for those who think about armies, a beacon that all other armies approach far or near. Its traditional role as a tool for evaluating other armies places the discipline of the Romans beyond analysis: Roman discipline is useful, so it must be true. But where did Roman discipline come from? and how did the Romans come to have the most of this essential quality? and why, if discipline is the key to Roman success, was discipline allowed to decay? To be grasped and evaluated, Roman discipline must be seen not as a platonic ideal, shorn of its Roman identity, but instead placed in the wider realms of the Roman army and the Roman mind.

    Stress on Roman discipline has a good ancient pedigree. Polybius, the major source for the army of the mid-Republic, praises Roman military punishments. He is particularly impressed by the good attitude inculcated by decimation, the execution of every tenth soldier after a unit had broken in battle, and the execution of negligent sentries. Josephus and Vegetius, under the empire and late empire, respectively, praise the early imperial army’s discipline and especially its training. But few have stopped to ask how the perspective of these observers affects their conclusions: Polybius, an officer of the Achaean League, whose army was badly trained and intermittently cowardly and whose officers had only a very limited disciplinary authority; Josephus, a leader of the Jewish levies hastily raised to resist the Romans, a militia whose insubordination, indiscipline, and infighting appalled him; and Vegetius, a would-be military reformer and starry-eyed lover of things past. Polybius, in fact, did not think Roman discipline the key to Roman success, although it was praiseworthy: he thought the soldiers of Macedon more orderly and obedient than the Romans. The Romans defeated the Macedonians, he says, not because of their discipline, but because of the superiority of their formation. And a close look at the record of the Roman army, a litany of mutinies, rebellions, and individual and mass disobedience, can easily raise doubts as to whether the army of the Romans was, by the standards of modern armies, very well disciplined at all.

    [...]

    Both discipline and cohesion assume their proper role in Roman military success when they are understood in the context of a fundamental Roman cultural drive: competition in aggressive bravery arising from a heroic tradition of single combat" (Pg 170-171)

    "Later Romans believed that this practice of one-on-one dueling on the battlefield was sanctified by immemorial tradition. Romulus, they believed, the very founder of Rome, had been the first to dedicate to Jupiter the spolia opima, the “noble spoils,” a special honor for a Roman commander who had killed the opposing commander with his own hand. And the Romans told a story about olden times when they were ruled by kings, a story about a duel between two sets of triplets, the brothers Horatii and Curatii. Two of the Roman brothers were cut down, the tale went, but all three of their opponents were wounded, and the surviving Roman brother fled. This was a ruse to spread out his attackers, and the Roman killed them one by one as they pursued him. And so the town of Alba, whose sovereignty was the stake for which the champions fought, was made part of Rome. When Romans imagined the fighting of their distant ancestors, they imagined it had allowed for and demanded formal combats that arose from challenges. Later Romans, in short, imagined a heroic culture not too far distant from the military culture depicted in the Iliad but even more ceremonious and ritualized.

    In projecting heroic dueling back into their very earliest days, later Romans were doing nothing more than projecting back in time the military ethos by which they actually lived in the late third century bc. From the well-attested age of the Second Punic War come credible reports of single combats and of heroes who fought in many of them, including the Roman marshals Marcellus and Marcus Servilius, consul in 202 BC, who had killed twenty-three men in various duels. He had despoiled everyone of those he slew of his armor, Livy has him boast. Like Homeric heroes, Romans of the Republic claimed the armor of their victims. The Romans hung such armor on their houses as “witnesses to their bravery.” Under the Roman law such spoils could not be removed even if the house were sold, and in an emergency, when the Roman Senate needed to be replenished after a slaughter, those who displayed such spoils on their houses might be enrolled in that august body. There was a special term, spolia provocatoria, for spoils taken after a single combat that issued from a formal challenge. Polybius, our best witness to the way Romans fought in the Republic, described the seeking out of single combat as especially characteristic of the Roman way of war. He was looking into the past, but he was also describing his own generation in the second century BC, when Romans, Polybius’s own protector Scipio Aemilianus among them, still regularly sought out single combat.

    Seeking out single combat was hardly confined to the Romans: it was part of the Celtic warrior tradition as well and the Greek, revived by Alexander and part of his legacy. Perhaps the most eager Greek emulator of Alexander in this regard was King Pyrrhus of Epirus. But when he found himself fighting the Romans and their allies in Italy (281–272 bc), although he fought in battle with his own hands, he proved less eager for single combat than the natives. After an Italian cavalry captain who charged him was killed, Pyrrhus nervously gave his own conspicuous equipment, no doubt including his famous helmet with its enormous crest and goat horns, to a friend, who was attacked and killed in turn. Greece offers no tales of multiple duelists to approach the Romans, nor the sense that single combat was a common rite of passage for young men of the ruling class. Seeking out single combat was a more prominent characteristic of Roman military culture than of the Classical or Hellenistic Greeks.

    The force driving the quest for single combat was the yearning to demonstrate the human quality that Romans of the middle Republic most admired, virtus, or martial courage.


    [...]

    It was the fiery ambition of Romans, especially young Roman aristocrats, to excel those around them in virtus that led them to seek out single combat. In the historian Livy’s version of the Corvus story Valerius accepts the challenge out of a sense of rivalry with the older duelist hero Manlius Torquatus" (Pg 175-177)

    "The old stories of the Romans, then, are not just a Roman rumination on their aggressive, competitive military ethos, but also a way of worrying at the tension between that ethos and another fundamental Roman
    military value, disciplina. “Discipline,” the flat English translation, fails to convey the full force of this Roman concept. For disciplina was not primarily a system of imposed or felt rules to make an unwarlike people place themselves in danger, to do something unnatural to them. In the old stories the Romans used to think about disciplina, tales like that of the son of Manlius Torquatus, it is conceived primarily as a brake to overly aggressive behavior.

    The tradition as it came down to the first century bc could be summed up thus: “In war, fighting against the enemy without orders, or retiring too slowly when recalled from the fight, was more often punished than fleeing the standards or abandoning one’s position when pressed.” Roman disciplina was understood to be more a curb than a spur, and it formed an opposed pair with Roman virtus.

    Details of early Roman legends are a dangerous sand upon which to build an enduring historical castle. But conceived as the dreams of men who, early and later, passed them down, elaborated them, and often invented them they reveal the concerns of those who dreamt them. The story of Corvus and related tales suggest a military culture at war with itself. The Romans had two contradictory sets of imperatives, both the heroic ethos of the single combatant and the stern code of disciplina" (pg 177-178)

    "The velites seem to have fought individually as an irregular swarm, without officers or standards of their own, although they might be dispatched en masse or in groups on special missions, often with the cavalry. They also might be set to throw javelins in volleys to disrupt and discourage the enemy, like light-armed skirmishers in a Hellenistic army, although unlike Greek skirmishers they were eager to fight hand to hand as well. The maniples of the hastati, principes, and triarii were cohesive bodies of men, but the hastati and principes at least fought as individuals, maneuvering with sword and shield against the foe. Before it came to sword point, at least some of the hastati and principes threw their javelins, but the
    throwing of javelins seems to have continued all through a Roman infantry fight" (Pg 179-180)

    "Once the military tribunes, the officers, had been elected and assigned to their legions, the thirty-five tribes of Roman citizens were called forward in an order decided by lot. From a tribal contingent groups of four men, chosen as reasonably alike in age and body, came forward one after another for inspection by the tribunes. The tribunes of the first legion chose one man, then the tribunes of the second, then the third; the fourthwas left with the last. When the next four men came forward, the second legion got first choice and the first legion was left with the last. And so it went around until the legions had their full complement of men. This guaranteed, as Polybius says, that each legion got men of the same caliber. Yet this system was not only laborious and time-consuming, but also ensured that each soldier would serve among strangers. This method of selection cut across all previous bonds of attachment, splitting fellow tribesmen, fellow villagers, fellow tenants, clients of the same patron, even comrades in arms who had served together in the previous year.

    [..]

    "All the cohesion born of previous civilian connection and previous military service the Romans cast away in selecting men for legions. This Roman system of selection, which so curiously prefigures the way athletes are drafted onto American professional sports teams and the way children are divided up for schoolyard games, suggests that the Romans of the middle Republic conceived that a soldier’s qualities as an individual were far more important to his military potential than his membership in a cohesive preexisting group.

    This vision of the Roman soldier fits well with the competitive pursuit of virtus which the highborn youths of the Republic, youths like Valerius Corvus, manifested in their quest for single combat. The Roman soldier did not primarily think of himself as part of a team, and he was not treated as such by his officers. Rather, he regarded his comrades as his competitors in aggressive bravery. This was also how a Roman of the first century imagined the early fighting of his countrymen: “Their greatest contest for glory was with each other: each hastened to be the first to strike down a foe, to climb a wall, to be witnessed while doing such a deed.” In this army a commander might have to ride up and down in front of an advancing legion beating eager soldiers back into their lines with the shaft of his spear. If this aggressiveness characterized the generations when the manipular legion was evolving (and certainly the Romans thought it did) the manipular legion appears not as a rational adaptation to changing military circumstances, but as the direction in which the competitive ethos of the Roman soldier drove the Roman phalanx" (Pg 183-185)

    "Yet whatever the order of their coming, the phalanx and the ethos of single combat were in conflict. Even the archaic phalanx had no greatplace for offensive prowess or heroic dueling, for aggressive virtus as the Romans understood it. To employ the phalanx in the face of this culture therefore required severity from above and self-discipline below, that is, disciplina, set in opposition to the individual ambitions of the warriors. And in fact there is a Roman story set in the mid–fifth century bc, in the age of the Roman phalanx, about another exemplar of disciplina, the dictator Postumius Tubertus, who executed his son for advancing beyond the lines without permission. It is from this dimly seen conflict between the phalanx and the culture of single combat that the singular Roman code of disciplina may derive and the odd sense, which the Romans worried at in their old stories, that for young men to disobey and fight against orders was justly punishable but at the same time right and natural." (Pg 186)

    The manipular legion was a solution to the problem of how to reconcile a competitive culture of individual dueling with the unaggressive mass fighting of the phalanx. It was the archaic, mixed phalanx that the Romans learned from their neighbors, one in which missile-armed troops mingled with hoplites. In Greece this evolved under peculiar Greek cultural pressures into the mature phalanx, from which missile-users were excluded, but in Rome the aggressive cult of virtus exerted a quite different cultural pressure, not expelling missiles but finally dissolving the phalanx toward the front into the manipular legion. The ideal of virtus required the youngest men to sally forth in front of the phalanx, to gratify their
    yearning for individual distinction. The power of the same ideal compelled their elders to allow them to go, to satisfy what they too considered a legitimate ambition, and to gain glory through them.

    By this logic the manipular legion was not an abstract tactical system developed by a mythical Roman general staff. It was not a phalanx rationally adapted to rough terrain or to enemies who fought with irregular tactics, although perhaps
    it proved useful in such cases. The manipular legion was the fruit of compromise resulting from the meeting of an imported method of fighting, the phalanx, with a people whose martial values, whether inherited or new-acquired, made fighting in the phalanx a heroic challenge for them." (Pg 189-190)

    "Generalship that tended to delay battle was offensive to the inherited Roman ethic of virtus, and its practitioners were suspected of cowardice. To get their way generals had to rely on the old opposing ethic of disciplina and the power it gave them. But when generals forced the two hallowed principles against each other, as in the war against Hannibal, disciplina was often the loser. The Romans, like the Greeks before them, never made the decision that obedience was the overriding military duty. Their discipline, as Polybius reveals in amazement, was far harsher than that of the Greeks. But virtus had legitimacy as well, and legitimacy not inferior in kind." (Pg 203)

    "Yet cerebral generalship was strongly resisted at Rome. Trickery and tactics, as the old senators had complained when the envoys reported the lies they had told to Perseus, could be viewed as opposed to virtus. “Among
    the Romans, a bit of a trace of the old philosophy of war is left,” wrote Polybius of the Romans of Aemilius Paullus’s day. “They declare war openly, rarely use ambushes, and fight their battles hand-to-hand at close quarters.” Many Romans preferred a battle, as Livy put it, “with standards set against standards, on a clean and open field, where without fear of ambush the affair could be settled by true virtus.” The general, in this view, was to lead the army directly at the enemy, to allow his soldiers to display their virtus, and to display his own. After a loss a Roman general might be prosecuted for personal cowardice, but not for tactical stupidity. Terentius Varro, the aggressive consul who committed the Roman army to the disaster at Cannae, was not punished for his bad planning but thanked when he returned to Rome for “not despairing of the Republic.” It was far more important to the Romans that their generals be plucky and adventuresome than that they be skillful strategists and tacticians.

    An unusual general like Scipio Africanus could regularly prevail in this conflict over how wars and battles should be fought. His personal heroism at the battle of Ticinus, where he was said to have saved his father’s life, and in the wake of Cannae, where he rallied a party of survivors when they threatened to surrender or flee from Italy, gave him at least partial protection against charges of personal cowardice. But even Scipio was severely criticized at Rome for lack of aggression, for moving too slowly, and for spoiling his soldiers. And he was sometimes obliged to trick his troops into obeying him by pretending that his plans were suggested to him by the gods. A less charismatic figure like Fabius Maximus,
    by contrast, could exert only an intermittent sway over his army in the face of the Romans’ aggressive culture, despite the supreme constitutional power the awe-evoking office of dictator supposedly conferred." (Pg 206-207)

    "Many Roman generals shared the common Roman distaste for strategy and tactics; others were impatient of slow strategy but not of tactics which did not delay the battle: the aggressive Varro deepened the Roman manipular array at Cannae. Still others, politicians in a city where politics and reputation were so wound up with war, will have been unwilling or unable to resist the impatient expectations of their soldiers and officers, whatever their private views: as long as the general and the soldier both followed the banner of virtus, the conflict between virtus and disciplina, for the most part, slept. But to make sophisticated plans—to fight like a Greek—might require that disciplina be set against virtus, and so produce
    the baying of angry voters, that sound so dreaded by the politically ambitious. Frequently, therefore, in the Roman army, as Livy had Paullus complain, “the soldiers do the thinking, and the commander is led around by the gossip of the rankers.” Roman command gyrated between tactical ingenuity and tactical simplicity." (Pg 207-208)

    "It is the conflict between the ancestral Roman value of virtus—and the impatient aggressiveness which grew from it—and the opposed tradition of cerebral generalship, which disciplina made possible, which explains the Romans’ facing the Macedonian phalanx head-on upon the plain of Pydna. On the day before the battle, Paullus had had to trick his own soldiers to prevent an engagement: a bald order to go into camp would not, it appears, have been obeyed. And soldiers’ entering battle against the orders of a commander was hardly uncommon in the Roman army. On the day of the battle both Paullus’s long sacrifices and his council of war were denounced as yet more delay. As long as possible Paullus lingered upon the rough ground: perhaps Perseus would advance and fight where the Romans had an advantage. But finally Paullus’s power to restrain his soldiers was at an end, and the Romans fought on ground of Perseus’s choosing. Ferociously denounced by both his officers and men, Paullus finally could resist no longer the virtus of his army. Before the Macedonians and Romans fought at Pydna the Roman ethics of virtus and disciplina fought their own battle, and in that battle virtus won" (Pg 208)

    "Roman warfare of the mid-Republic was a product of fierce division over how war should be fought. The vision of generalship that Aemilius Paullus embodied, that is, the Hellenistic conception of the general as the master of trickery, tactics, flanking maneuvers, and applied scientific knowledge, was conceived as illegitimate on its face by a large proportion of his army and his officers, at least if it delayed their getting to grips with the enemy. To them the duty of the general was to lead his army straight at the foe and to fight as soon as possible. The willful virtus of the soldiers and officers pounded like a siege ram against disciplina, the ethic the general relied upon to command the obedience of his soldiers and to put his plans into action. Yet this very conflict underlies the success of the army of the middle Republic, for despite the disasters it sometimes produced, the result of the conflict was a balance between qualities essential to Roman victory: on the one hand, the bravery and aggressiveness of Roman soldiers of all ranks, and on the other the ability of commanders to use that bravery and aggressiveness. The Roman army was disobedient because it was brave: a less brave army might have been more obedient but would have won fewer wars, while an army whose bravery broke entirely through the bonds of disciplina would have been uncontrollable and so would have won fewer wars as well. In a world where their enemies often represented extremes—brave but ungovernable Gauls, drilled but sometimes timid Greeks—the secret of Roman superiority was that the Roman army, although often inferior in respects in which their enemies excelled, was adequate in respects in which their enemies were not" (Pg 210-211)
    It is J.E. Lendon that best summarizes the military culture of the Roman Republic. They were a people who glorified in the aggressive courage of single combat, who believed virtus was the noblest of all manly qualities and the best way to gain the respect of your community, and that soldiers should move forward and attack aggressively. They greatly valued aggressive individuals, and allowed them scope within their army to be aggressive in competition with each other. They employed the stern rule of Disciplina as a curb, not a spur. It was there as a brake on too much aggression, not as a motivator to make up for too little. The downside of their great aggression was that they were quite liable to be disobedient to their commanders, or to spur and force their commanders into disadvantageous engagements by their great aggression, but the Romans found this quite acceptable in the trade-off for a more aggressive and brave army, better able to withstand the terrors of combat.

    Putting these puzzle pieces together with primary sources and other forms of anthropological data (Like studies of Roman culture, looking at modern riots, reenactment and experimental archaeology, my own practice in fencing, et cetera) has made me arrive at my conclusions about the nature of the Roman army in its Republican period: That it was an army which relied more on aggression than on discipline, that its maneuvers were necessarily simple and reliable rather than complicated, that it was necessarily an army whose infantry formation was looser and allowed for more individual movement. The Roman army was never a static entity, and it evolved steadily throughout its long history. It becomes a decidedly different entity under the Empire, as Lendon accounts later in his text. Projecting the ideals and nature of the Imperial-era Roman army, particularly from later Imperial sources like Vegetius, back onto its Republican predecessor is as historiographically hazardous as using the behaviours of the US Army in the Vietnam War to explain the nature of the US Army in the First World War. It would be likewise hazardous to use Byzantine period texts to explain the nature of the Imperial Roman army, so why insist that the Republic's army behaved identically to Imperial period norms and ideals?

    I am not arguing from ignorance of this matter or subject. If I have what seem to be heterodox views, it is because firstly the "received wisdom" about the Roman army is often deeply mistaken or inaccurate, and secondly because I have done enough research and reading of the works of leading scholars on this field to develop heterodox views in the first place. One generally does not expound unexpected or controversial positions from ignorance, ignorance rather makes one follow what is commonly repeated in pop history. If I were ignorant, I would be out here singing the praises of the perfect discipline of the legions, and talking about how their tight shield wall of soldiers with short swords stabbed their way through hordes of Gauls all day long like mindless automatons. That's been a narrative that has been repeated many times, and unfortunately it isn't accurate.

    I would also dispute any characterization of the evolution of Roman military methods based upon some idea that they meant to create a "superior military machine" such that "superior methods" could make up for "inferior numbers". The Romans certainly always strove and fought mightily for victory, they fought to overcome their foes, glorify themselves socially, and advance the political aims of their Res Publica. However I dispute that their choice of military means were motivated by needing superior methods to make up for inferior numbers. In the early days of the Republic, Rome fought peer enemies and rival cities which all seem to have possessed roughly equal resources to the Romans. In later wars with Carthage and the Hellenistic empires, Rome was able to mobilize the manpower of Italy to a far larger extent than contemporary polities were able to do, and were able to quickly raise new armies and fleets repeatedly after considerable disasters. They could always put and support sizable armies into the field, and while they may not always have outnumbered the enemy tactically in a given battle, they usually had armies of comparable size to any opponent and they never seemed to have suffered from any anxiety about their manpower.
    Last edited by EricD; April 28, 2020 at 08:34 PM.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    [FONT=&amp] They could always put and support sizable armies into the field, and while they may not always have outnumbered the enemy tactically in a given battle, they usually had armies of comparable size to any opponent and they never seemed to have suffered from any anxiety about their manpower.
    Tell that to lucullus while he was marching
    deep in Armenia.

  14. #114

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I cited Ardant du Picq, not because I believe his model for Roman tactics is the most accurate (I think that aspect is rather dated and too heavily influenced by his 19th century military experience), but because I think du Picq's insights on the importance and dominating influences of morale and fear are very important. I did not cite du Picq on Roman tactics, I cited du Picq on the impact of fear in battle, because on that topic I think du Picq's writings are very accurate.
    Talking about incompetence, Picqs view on Roman discipline is exactly the opposite of yours, his is the view that the un brave Roman was compelled to fight from fear of punishment.

    Then you shoud have used Roman sources not a source from a millennia past the events, only your ignorance of both Roman warfare and Picq, can excuse you, especially since what Picq wrote is "The Roman was not essentially brave. He did not produce any warrior of the type of Alexander.""The discipline of the Greeks was secured by exercises and rewards; the discipline of the Romans was secured also by the fear of death. They put to death with the club; they decimated their cowardly or traitorous units.""In order to conquer enemies that terrified his men, a Roman general heightened their morale, not by enthusiasm but by anger. He made the life of his soldiers miserable by excessive work and privations"" Roman training and Roman discipline produced a fantastic army, discipline cannot be secured or created in a day, it is an institution."""The soldier is unknown often to his closest companions. He loses them in the disorienting smoke and confusion of a battle which he is fighting, so to speak, on his own"


    Here Picq is using his knowledge of French harsh military views of discipline, conscription of people unknown to each other who then served together, and what it produces in his time, and *thinking* this applied to a different culture in a different time. Btw his thinking is what led to French mass slaughter by charging into high volume rifle fire with bayonet charges, in the Franco Prussian war, roughly equal numbers committed to campaign, and French casualties were 5 times that of Prussia.

    Picq views were formed in his century, and the mechanics and nature of combat had radically changed, ergo his views were totally different from a Romans views on morale and fear.

    To a Roman citizen of the Republican period, his service was an not only a duty, it was an act of devotio, he put himself at risk for body politic, wounds received were proof of this for all to see. Livy describes how a first centurion was picked, by giving us his speech as to why he should be preferred. Marcus Servilius"I have a body distinguished by honest scars,every one of which was received on the front of my body."Servilius was presenting a common discourse about warrior values in the ancient world. A soldier should only have wounds on the front of his body, since wounds on the back were a shameful sign that he had run away. Another centurion when arguing for promotion, pointed out his awards for killing 23 enemies in combat and 7 wounds to his front. Caeser lament the loss of a centurion "Q. Lucanius, of the same rank, fighting most valiantly, is slain while he assists his son when surrounded by the enemy", father dies to save son, unlike saving that man next to you who you dont know,,and relates chief centurion of the legion P. Sextius Baculus, a very valiant man, who was so exhausted by many and severe wounds, that he was already unable to support himself.

    The Roman manipular standard has an open hand on its top, on taking the military oath, the citizen becomes a soldier, he raises his open hand and gives his fides to serve, to a Roman his fides was more than important than his life, to break it was to become less than Roman and to offend the gods.

    Only those of high dignitas advanced in rank in military service, those who surrendered, performed badly by routing etc, exiled on poor rations to serve in sicily for the duration of the war, freed slaves were preferred over them for military action and service.

    With his fides intact he could achieve viritus, 'acting like a brave man in military matters'. virtus was to be found in the context of 'outstanding deeds' (egregia facinora), and brave deeds were the accomplishments which brought gloria ('a reputation'). This gloria was attached to two ideas: fama ( fame) ('what people think of you') and dignitas ('one's standing in the community'). The struggle for viritus at Rome was above all a struggle for public office (honos), since it was through high office, to which one was elected by the People, that a man could best show his manliness which led to military achievement, which would lead in turn to a reputation and votes. c25% of all citizens were in service during the Republican period, and c9% lost there lives there.

    The Treatment of War Wounds in Graeco-Roman Antiquity, (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Treatment-G.../dp/9004114793) Salazar points out that the ancient sources used "wounding as a metaphor for heroism." To be wounded and continue to fight was heroic; to stop fighting after suffering a wound was cowardly. Titus Quinctius, the son of Cincinnatus, continued to fight despite having an "arm cut off."

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    I would also dispute any characterization of the evolution of Roman military methods based upon some idea that they meant to create a "superior military machine" such that "superior methods" could make up for "inferior numbers".

    So, they must have abandoned the use of a phalanx for the Legion to create an inferior method of fighting then, acording to you. Greeks gave up the pike phalanx it up to imitate the Roman legion, because it was so inferior. Half of Roman field forces were allies in the period, as Roman citizens were to few on their own, and Rome required Allies to serve the Roman Military machine, because the Roman state that had a small citizen body, and they all ended up using Roman equipment and methods, because they were inferior.

    They gave up having 2/3 of the legion with spears, to 1/3 and finally to no spears because pila were inferior then, they gave up using greek straight swords for gladius during the 2nd PW because it was an inferior weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    It is known that an army suffers far heavier casualties when it is routing and running away without fighting, than when it is standing and fighting.
    Known only to the innumerate it appears.

    I just, pointed out what you know is contradicted by the evidence the opponents of Sparta, with 2 and 3 to 1 odds in their favour, incurred 8% when defeateing Sparta at odds of 3:1, and twice that when defeated by Spaerta when at odds of 2:1, ie they will take 8% anyways, so another 8% from losing, is not how you described it, and is exactly why Sparta with inferior numbers but superior training and discipline was able to defeat superior numbers, when all were using the same weapons. This data set again points out the cost in lives lost in close combat was far higher than that of missile based engagements for a millennia and beyond.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    They could always put and support sizable armies into the field, and while they may not always have outnumbered the enemy tactically in a given battle, they usually had armies of comparable size to any opponent and they never seemed to have suffered from any anxiety about their manpower.
    Appointment made by Caeser from Allesia/ Bibracte, who wants a word with you about how to count, 15 mins later, you have an appointment with Marius who wants a word about Aquae Sextiae/Vercellae, 15 mins later Paulinus is coming back from watling street to have a word, oh, he is double/treble booked with Lucullus on his way back from Armenia and Scipio from Magnesia.

    Meanwhile, the Senate wants to know why they were outnumbered in the 2nd PW till 202, and when can they have a word.

    Mobolized forces 2nd PW


    218 Rome 70k Carthage 140k.
    217 Rome 70k Carthage 85k
    215/214 Rome 100k Carthage 165k
    204 Rome 110k Carthage 128k
    202 Rome 150k Carthage 50k


    Carthage as 150% 120% 165% 115% 50% % of Rome



    Only if you ignore Roman history and the search for the bloodless battle that Romes generals looked for.
    Military defeats, casualties of war and the success of Rome
    https://cdr.lib.unc.edu/concern/dissertations/gm80hv44c
    Last edited by chriscase; April 30, 2020 at 10:09 PM. Reason: personal references removed
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  15. #115

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Firstly, providing quotes from authors and citing their works is not plagiarism. Plagiarism would be if I were to claim their works as my own. I do not. I am saying that Sabin et al's works on this subject have influenced my own views. That is not plagiarism. Kindly cease to accuse me of such.

    Actually: How would you summarize my views on the Roman Army, in your own words? Because the arguments that I am making and the arguments that you keep saying I am making appear to be two different things.

    Talking about incompetence, Picqs view on Roman discipline is exactly the opposite of yours, his is the view that the un brave Roman was compelled to fight from fear of punishment.
    Yes, and? Again: I did not cite du Picq for his view on Roman tactics, because I believe they are dated and no longer accurate. I cited du Picq for his views on the effect of fear and the importance of morale on the mechanics of battle, where I think he has important insights. Again: I think Sabin, Zhmodikov, and Quesada-Sanz's papers have the most correct model for Roman tactics and the "face of battle" in Roman times. Du Picq's work Battle Studies is an important work on understanding the impacts of morale and fear in combat, but I don't agree with every aspect of his characterization of Roman or Greek armies. So stop saying that du Picq disagrees with my characterization of the Roman army, I already know that and it's not particularly relevant.

    So, they must have abandoned the use of a phalanx for the Legion to create an inferior method of fighting then, acording to you. Greeks gave up the pike phalanx it up to imitate the Roman legion, because it was so inferior. Half of Roman field forces were allies in the period, as Roman citizens were to few on their own, and Rome required Allies to serve the Roman Military machine, because the Roman state that had a small citizen body, and they all ended up using Roman equipment and methods, because they were inferior.

    They gave up having 2/3 of the legion with spears, to 1/3 and finally to no spears because pila were inferior then, they gave up using greek straight swords for gladius during the 2nd PW because it was an inferior weapon.
    This is a misrepresentation of my views, and I have not said any of these things.

    The Roman state, and the Roman military method, had many advantages in war or battle. I can list many of them: The training and equipping necessary for a legion is simpler and easier than the very specialised level of drill needed to handle a sarissa in a phalanx, allowing for more manpower to be mobilized more quickly. The widely distributed system of centurions assigned to conveniently sized sub-units provided a generally very reliable level of local leadership at the sharp edge of battle. The pilum is a very effective weapon, and the scutum's size and strength both physically protects the soldier and provides a psychological feeling of safety to support him as he moves into combat. The gladius is an effective sword for both cut and thrust, and the act of charging with swords drawn would terrify many lesser opponents into flight outright.

    The intervals between the maniples let the Romans vary the frontage of a legion for whatever the circumstances required by varying the size of intervals, but still keep reserve lines disposed in depth. Those reserve line leant a very great degree of resilience to frontal pressure upon the legion, as a repulsed attack or a retreat of a few maniples does not turn into a rout of the whole army. Even in battles with phalanxes like at Cynoscephalae and Pydna, the Romans were able to both match frontage with the phalanx and have reserve lines in depth at the same time. This is a very great advantage, keeping reserves well back from the stress of combat, being able to bring up reinforcements wherever a maniple is hard pressed, and at the same time not sacrificing frontage so that the enemy cannot overlap your line. The Roman battle line could bend without breaking, but also had great resilience because of the depth of the triplex acies.

    Their light troops and skirmishers had similar aggression to the line infantry, and performed well. Their cavalry particularly is often underestimated but was a very dangerous and important force.

    The Romans taught their young men to be brave, and glorified in aggression in battle. They had a great degree of grit and elan, which often let them keep up the pressure until an opponent's will was cracked, or let them keep in the fight even when being driven back until the battle could be won elsewhere on the field (Cynoscephalae and Pydna spring to mind). Their centurions were experienced men of proven courage who could inspire the normal soldier to fight more bravely by leading from the forefront of battle. The social glory that accompanied single combat, and the loose array of the maniple which enabled aggressive individuals to move forward, and at the same time the mass of the century or maniple offered group support to those individuals who lead the charge.

    Their distributed system of leadership and the organization of numerous sub-units let the Roman army be very responsive and exploit opportunities swiftly and ruthlessly as they occurred on the battlefield. This is perhaps best shown by the tribune of Cynoscephalae. For my money the most incredible example of it was Claudius Nero's actions at the Battle of the Metaurus, outflanking the Carthaginians by shifting maniples from one end of the Roman battle line to the other, behind the rest of the embattled army.

    They were very skilled campaigners, who were diligent about fortifications, watches, and picquets, and this set of skills transfers well over to siege warfare, where they excelled many of their contemporaries. Siege warfare is really the decisive act of ancient warfare, as only by taking the fortified places of an enemy can you truly conquer their lands. In sieges, the Romans did well in the Republic and only became better with more practice later on.

    So no, the Romans didn't win out of inferiority. That is a ridiculous statement, and a misrepresentation of my arguments.

    Why did the Romans win their Empire? I would argue that the most salient factors include high strategic reserves of manpower, a culture of constant military expansion leading to a high level of experience of warfare present in the society for the legions to draw upon in recruitment, and a lot of aggression of both individual soldiers and of commanding generals combined with enough self-discipline to keep their aggressive behaviour generally (Although not always) within the parameters of militarily useful actions.

    I don't believe that they had perfect, unbreakable discipline, or better close order drill, or that they needed superior methods to cover up for less manpower. I believe they had a greater cultural system for bringing out the courage of their men, enough discipline to keep said aggression under control, a better system for mobilizing the manpower of their territories, a simpler, but very resilient array for battle, and superior campaigning and siege skills. They had morale, numbers, organization, and leadership, and these are considerable advantages. There are trade offs in that their armies were at times disobedient in their aggression, but overall they had more advantages than disadvantages.

    Appointment made by Caeser from Allesia/ Bibracte, who wants a word with you about how to count, 15 mins later, you have an appointment with Marius who wants a word about Aquae Sextiae/Vercellae, 15 mins later Paulinus is coming back from watling street to have a word, oh, he is double/treble booked with Lucullus on his way back from Armenia and Scipio from Magnesia.
    Why, yes, the Romans could be outnumbered in a given battle. Now the exact numbers claimed in ancient sources are a matter of controversy, because often they strain credibility (Herodotus claiming that Xerxes invaded Greece with a million men, for perhaps the most classic example), so we don't precisely know what was the level of outnumbered an army could be in a single battle. But we have a pretty good idea that, say, the Seleucids outnumbered the Romans at Magnesia. The Romans had the same logistical challenges and limits as anyone else, so yeah they could be outnumbered in a given battle.

    But just as often, they had armies of comparable size to their enemies. You cite Alesia, Bibracte, Aquae Sextiae, Vercellae, Watling Street, and Magnesia as incidences when the Romans were outnumbered. I could cite Asculum, Bagradas, Adys, Trebia, Dertosa, the Metaurus, Zama, Cynoscephalae, and Pydna as incidences when the Roman army is estimated to have been similarly sized to their opponents. I could also cite Heraclea, Cannae, the Siege of Carthage, or the Battle of Corinth as incidences where the Romans outnumbered their enemies. So whether the Romans outnumbered their enemies or were themselves outnumbered was always a matter of the fortunes of war, the skill of the general, the logistical challenges of the campaign, but the Romans were just as capable of meeting these challenges as anyone else, and had similar resources to their opponents, and so they usually seem to have deployed armies of comparable size to their enemies.

    Above the tactical level, however, the Romans always had similar or superior strategic resources in manpower to their opponents. A defeat like Cannae could have shattered other polities, much less four crushing defeats in a row like Trebia, Trasimene, Cannae, and Silva Litana. Fear and panic and sorrow certainly affected the Romans after slaughters like these in the Second Punic War, yet they raised new legions and carried on until Carthage was defeated.

    "For the conquest of Italy, the system perpetuated itself, as the more Rome expanded, the larger its collective army became. Some states even joined the alliance system voluntarily, recognizing its benefits. Newly conquered areas were also made safe by series of colonies that Rome planted throughout Italy, many of which went on to become large cities in their own right and provided Rome with even more troops. The confederacy provided immense resources of manpower which go a long way towards explaining Rome’s military success during the mid-Republic. The system allowed Rome both to conquer large parts of the Mediterranean and to defend Italy from incursions by the Gauls and by Pyrrhus and Hannibal. They could now fight wars on multiple fronts and survive bitter and costly defeats, as the human capital of Italy gave them enough resources virtually to guarantee eventual success"
    Cambridge History of Greek & Roman Warfare, Volume 1, 2007, Pg 486

    "Just as gainful military campaigns account to a degree for the lack of internal stasis in mid-Republican Rome, this type of warfare was also necessary for Rome’s relationship with its Italian allies, as the latter were taxed not in money or kind but in men for the communal army. This alliance system served as indirect financing for the Roman state at war, as the costs of combat for Rome itself were greatly reduced due to the large presence of the allies, who met their own expenses. The system accounts for much of Rome’s success on the battlefield, as the vast reserves of Italian manpower saw the Republic through many long and bitter conflicts. Furthermore, many of the allies did not serve by compulsion, as they saw for themselves the economic benefits brought about by plundering others."
    Ibid, Pg. 495

    "Rome of the mid- Republic went to war nearly every year. The Roman people voted wars in assembly – the comitia centuriata, itself a body with military origins – and no case is known of its refusing a war the Senate wanted. Individuals might have resisted the call to arms with impunity, since the Roman state was quite incapable of compelling the unwilling to serve in the army, but Roman men did not (Polyb. 6.26.4). When there was widespread resistance to the callup in 151 Polybius reports that this was new to Roman experience. And comparison of the size of Roman armies to census numbers reveals that the Romans were able to mobilize a remarkably large proportion of their men for war. From 200 to 168, when the Republic faced nothing we would accept as a threat to its security, nearly one out of six adult male citizens was in the field every year. During the crisis of the Second Punic War (218–201) the proportion had been higher – more than a quarter."
    Ibid, Pg. 511-512

    "On a practical level the societal urge to demonstrate virtus produced brave armies (Polyb. 1.64.6), large armies, and armies that could be reconstituted year after year even in the wake of bloody defeats, as during the Second Punic War. Roman manpower poured forth like a fountain (a Greek might observe); fighting the Romans was like fighting the hydra, cut one head off, and others sprung forth in its place"
    Ibid, Pg. 514-515



    Manpower and mobilization was a major strategic Roman advantage, not a disadvantage that they needed to cover up.
    Last edited by chriscase; April 30, 2020 at 10:11 PM. Reason: continuity

  16. #116

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Firstly, providing quotes from authors and citing their works is not plagiarism. Plagiarism would be if I were to claim their works as my own. I do not. I am saying that Sabin et al's works on this subject have influenced my own views. That is not plagiarism. Kindly cease to accuse me of such.
    I quoted your posts that were plagiarisms, because thats what they are are, when you run them through plagiarism detection software. After i pointed it out you went back to properly cite and quote authors. If you revert to plagiarism you may expect to have it pointed out to you again. That wont me me mid you, there is no quid pro with you.

    My last post to you btw, as you dont know anything about the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Actually: How would you summarize my views on the Roman Army, in your own words? Because the arguments that I am making and the arguments that you keep saying I am making appear to be two different things.
    .

    You dont appear to understand the quote function, when your quoted as writing something, its to that quote people respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    In fact, I would say he was mostly a javelineer, a heavy skirmisher more than what you might call a heavy infantryman in the manner of the Greek or Macedonian phalangites. I believe the pilum was the weapon he used most of the time he spent in combat (In fact, I think javelins, stones, and missiles were the predominant weapons in all ancient warfare), and this view is supported in the academic world by the works of Philip Sabin, Alexander Zhmodikov, and J.E. Lendon.
    Except its not, its a mathematical fact he cannot be mostly a missile armed skirmisher ( no such thing in Roman terms, your a velite or your not a velite) spending most of his time using pila in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    The Roman legionaries were not very well-disciplined soldiers. The Roman legionaries were, in point of fact, often aggressive and individualistic to the point of foolishness and disobedience. The Roman legionaries were impatient, rash, and impulsive soldiers, and their great courage brought with it a high chance of disobedient behaviour which would border on mutinous among modern soldiers. They also didn't train much as formations or groups.
    Pure fantasy without any basis in fact, all the evidence we have point to the opposite. Cn Torquatus had he son executed for engaging in single combat without orders. From that comes the Roman manlian law of execution for fighting in single combat without permission. We have hundreds of acounts of single combat in front of the standards, all with permision by the officer class, or done by the officer class, Cn Claudius Marcellius won many single combats, Servilius Pulex 23 single combats, Legate Occius Achiles killed 2 in single combat. Postumius Tubertus had his son put to death for desertion, Aemilius Scaurus banished his son, for his desertion, he killed himself instead from shame.

    Training with gladius twice a day, is far more than a modern solider trains with his fire arms.


    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    A traditional Roman legion of the Republic was 4,000-odd strong. Of this, only 3,000 were actual infantry of the line (Hastati, principes, triarii), the rest being skirmishers and cavalry. Let us set aside the skirmishing of light troops for the moment and consider this: At the Battle of Cynoscephelae, Philip V hurtled the 8,000 strong phalanx of his right wing against Flaminius's 3,000 legionaries in his left wing legion. In fact, the actual numbers involved at the sharp end were even worse because the Roman legion deployed in a depth of three lines, and so those 8,000 pikemen came bearing down on the 1,200 hastati of the first line. Polybius tells us that the pikemen triumphed in this encounter, which of course they would, but the legionaries stayed in the fight long enough for the Roman right wing to win the battle. The courage required for such a feat, to merely stay in the fight against the Macedonian phalanx, the most formidable infantry array yet devised in the world, is incredible. That testifies, I think, to the resilience which Roman virtus lent them in battle.
    Polylbios also tells us the Legions sent to Macedonian were 6000 strong, so your 3000 was actually 4200, and the velites were not set aside, they were part of how the legion fought, so it 5700.

    8000 pike men were 16 deep, so the frontage was 500*1.5 feet per man was c750 feet, you keep using 6 feet as a skirmisher legionary, so that makes the frontage of the legionaries it faced, 125 equivalents, since the formation had equal space ( checkerboard) between each one thats reduced, by half, thats 65 man frontage, 3 or 4 maniples frontage not even half the legions Hastati can fit in your skirmisher formation for the legion.

    You ignore your own source for Legion numbers, and your ideas do not fit the reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Du Picq's work Battle Studies is an important work on understanding the impacts of morale and fear in combat, but I don't agree with every aspect of his characterization of Roman or Greek armies. So stop saying that du Picq disagrees with my characterization of the Roman army, I already know that and it's not particularly relevant.
    .

    I just explained to you warfare was completely different in Picqs day, to the ancient period, "Man does not enter battle to fight but for victory. He does everything that he can to avoid the first and obtain the second.' you have used, several times, and i just explained to a Roman, his fama and dignitas comes from the fight, in which he kills the enemy to prove his superiority, in person up close with a hand weapon, after using a single missile weapon, with an effective range of 100 feet to aid in that process. he enters the fight for the sake of the fight, in which he gains fama when he succeeds.

    Picqs day a Prussian needle gun had effective range of 670 feet and 10 rnds a min, to close to contact means taking 1200 rnds, a Roman Maniple formation advancing to contact, with 20 man frontage, 6 ranks deep, of 6 feet per man, is 120 feet wide, and can expect to receive missile fire of the same output it can produce in a min, a min being the time it takes to cover 100 feet, so both sides have 20 rnds a min.

    Picq understanding of how we use catastrophe theory in combat modelling, a mathematical model for human morale in combat, and is to explain the sudden change in human behavior, fight to flight in response to events. In the ancient period of close combat as being the decisive means of deciding conflict resolution, you chances of getting to close combat were very good, and once in it you could see how many you were up against and gauge you chances there, deciding to continue or retire, and again taking missile fore for a min.

    The linear progression of events that a person perceives as threats to life are seen and the brain responds to, i can see the missile and blows from hand held weapons, odds of being hit by a missile as they advance, odds i hit and take away his shield, and close on him and finish him, oops, a friend steps in to cover him now its not so easy, now its two friends shoulder to shoulder, enough of that ill back of to my mates. All these are incremental steps in the fight to flight process of the brain, there is no catastrophe event that make flight the choice from it, that comes from an incremental accumulation of small events to produce it over time and can be observed.

    Not so by the advent of breachloading firearms, and supporting artillery, you cannot see the munitions, only the effects of them, which can come from 670 feet to the front and side, meaning you on your 6 feet could be the target of anyone from a range of 1300 feet to your front, catastrophic events occur in front of you as entire front ranks go down in seconds, causing an obstacle to advancing. Catastrophic losses are observed and the brain chosses flight/surrender in an instant, no incremental accumulation is needled as what used to take to occur, now occurs in an instant.

    Polybios tells us single combat is how fame is acquired in the Roman military system. Livy tells us that after Cannae there was not enough Centurians left, and that the void was to be filled by making as many Romans who had killed in single combat, ie those with high fame and dignitas, Centurians.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Manpower and mobilization was a major strategic Roman advantage, not a disadvantage that they needed to cover up.
    Manpower and mobilization are two different things, Rome never mobolized at the level Carthage did, and fought at a numerical disadvantage because of it, the loss of 330k of the 750k manpower base, including a loss of half of the Roman citizen body, during the 2PW saw a fundamental shift in Roman society as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    "Rome of the mid- Republic went to war nearly every year. The Roman people voted wars in assembly - the comitia centuriata, itself a body with military origins - and no case is known of its refusing a war the Senate wanted. Individuals might have resisted the call to arms with impunity, since the Roman state was quite incapable of compelling the unwilling to serve in the army, but Roman men did not (Polyb. 6.26.4). When there was widespread resistance to the callup in 151 Polybius reports that this was new to Roman experience. And comparison of the size of Roman armies to census numbers reveals that the Romans were able to mobilize a remarkably large proportion of their men for war. From 200 to 168, when the Republic faced nothing we would accept as a threat to its security, nearly one out of six adult male citizens was in the field every year. During the crisis of the Second Punic War (218-201) the proportion had been higher - more than a quarter."
    Ibid, Pg. 511-512
    .

    I know of one, Polybios tells us about it, the Senate could not get a declaration of war from the assembly for Macedonia.

    "The proposed declaration of war against Macedonia was almost unanimously rejected at the first meeting of the Assembly. The length and exhausting demands of the late war had made men weary of fighting and they shrank from incurring further toils and dangers. The Senate got its declaration with this compromise:"

    "The consuls were ordered to disband the old armies and, each of them, to raise two fresh legions. As the conduct of the new war, which was felt to be a very serious one, was entrusted to Sulpicius, he was allowed to reenlist as volunteers as many as he could out of the army which P. Scipio had brought back from Africa, but on no account to compel any of the veterans to join against his will."
    Last edited by chriscase; April 30, 2020 at 10:14 PM. Reason: personal references removed
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  17. #117

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    I quoted your posts that were plagiarisms, because thats what they are are, when you run them through plagiarism detection software. After i pointed it out you went back to properly cite and quote authors. If you revert to plagiarism you may expect to have it pointed out to you again. That wont me me mid you, there is no quid pro with you.

    My last post to you btw, as you dont know anything about the subject.

    .

    You dont appear to understand the quote function, when your quoted as writing something, its to that quote people respond.
    Can you actually summarize my views and arguments, or are baseless accusations of plagiarism all you have? My assumption is that people come to a discussion like this in good faith with the intent to discuss and learn, and these attacks are neither educational nor helpful. I am not a plagiarist, and I do not appreciate being accused of such.

    Except its not, its a mathematical fact he cannot be mostly a missile armed skirmisher ( no such thing in Roman terms, your a velite or your not a velite) spending most of his time using pila in combat.
    If it's a mathematical fact, then why do the primary sources speak throughout of missiles being used for the duration of a battle? Why does Livy regard the pilum as the primary Roman weapon? Why does Caesar describe the climax of the Battle of Ilerda, a contest of Roman cohorts versus other Roman cohorts, thus:

    " Finding nearly the whole of his line panic-stricken — an event as unusual as it was unexpected — Caesar exhorts his men and leads the Ninth Legion to their support. He checks the foe who are pursuing our men with insolent daring, and compels them again to turn and retreat to the town of Ilerda and halt beneath the walls. But the men of the Ninth Legion, carried away by zeal in their desire to repair the loss received, rashly pursuing the flying foe too far, get into unfavourable ground and approach close under the hill on which the town of Ilerda was situated. When our men wished to retreat from this position, the enemy in turn kept pressing them hard from the higher ground. The place was precipitous with a steep descent on either side, and extended only so far in width as just to give room for three cohorts drawn up in battle array, so that supports could not be sent up on the flanks nor could cavalry be of any use if the men were in difficulties. But on the side of the town sloping ground with a slight descent stretched to the length of about four hundred paces. In this direction our men stood at bay, since, carried forward by their zeal, they had recklessly advanced thus far. The fighting took place in this spot, which was unfavourable both from its confined limits and because they had halted just under the very spurs of the mountain, so that no missile failed to reach them. Nevertheless they strove with valour and endurance and sustained every description of wound. The forces of the foe were increasing and cohorts were continually being sent up to them from the camp through the town so that the unexhausted were always taking the place of the exhausted. Caesar was obliged to adopt the same course of withdrawing the exhausted and sending up supporting cohorts to the same place.

    When they had fought in this way continuously for five hours, and our men were being grievously harassed by superior numbers, having spent all their missiles, they draw their swords and, breasting the hill, charge the cohorts, and after laying a few low, they force the rest to retreat." (De Bello Civili, Book 1, Chapter 45-46)

    This combat went on for five hours in Caesar's account, and then only after this long combat are their missiles all spent and they draw their swords and charge their enemies. Ilerda may not have been a typical engagement, but the text implies that missiles were a central feature of a legionary vs legionary battle for five hours. How exactly can you account for that, other than that pila were thrown gradually throughout the engagement? And, probably, also collected from the ground and rethrown?

    Pure fantasy without any basis in fact, all the evidence we have point to the opposite. Cn Torquatus had he son executed for engaging in single combat without orders. From that comes the Roman manlian law of execution for fighting in single combat without permission. We have hundreds of acounts of single combat in front of the standards, all with permision by the officer class, or done by the officer class, Cn Claudius Marcellius won many single combats, Servilius Pulex 23 single combats, Legate Occius Achiles killed 2 in single combat. Postumius Tubertus had his son put to death for desertion, Aemilius Scaurus banished his son, for his desertion, he killed himself instead from shame.

    Training with gladius twice a day, is far more than a modern solider trains with his fire arms.
    So what you're saying is that the Romans loved single combats? The same thing I've been saying throughout? That they had a very individually-driven combat style, combined with a degree of discipline and control?

    So is your disagreement only that I characterize them as an undisciplined force? Aggressive soldiers are also at times disobedient soldiers. We often see the Roman Army as this perfect ideal, the most disciplined, the most well trained, but that is not the human reality that emerges from the surviving texts, which point to an army in which disobedient behaviour was a repeating feature.

    Its relevant to show your incompetent grasp of both Roman history, and human Psychology.

    I just explained to you warfare was completely different in Picqs day, to the ancient period, "Man does not enter battle to fight but for victory. He does everything that he can to avoid the first and obtain the second.' you have used, several times, and i just explained to a Roman, his fama and dignitas comes from the fight, in which he kills the enemy to prove his superiority, in person up close with a hand weapon, after using a single missile weapon, with an effective range of 100 feet to aid in that process. he enters the fight for the sake of the fight, in which he gains fama when he succeeds.

    [...]

    Polybios tells us single combat is how fame is acquired in the Roman military system. Livy tells us that after Cannae there was not enough Centurians left, and that the void was to be filled by making as many Romans who had killed in single combat, ie those with high fame and dignitas, Centurians.
    Yes, a Roman's fame and dignity came from success in combat, but he wants the success, not the combat itself. The combat is just a means to the end, not the end in itself. People within normal psychological parameters do not, generally, seek out violence for its own sake. People who seek out violence for the sake of performing violence are psychopaths or serial killers. For the most part, normal people are willing to fight when there is something they gain from it. In the Roman's case, he gains in prestige and social status. It is the gain in status that is the desirable thing, not the fight in and of itself.
    Last edited by chriscase; April 30, 2020 at 10:16 PM. Reason: continuity

  18. #118
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    We've already had a thread warning about directing attacks at the post rather than the member. If thread participants continue to have difficulty following the rules laid out in the Terms of Service, penalties will escalate.
    Last edited by chriscase; April 30, 2020 at 10:19 PM. Reason: reopening

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  19. #119

    Default Re: The Disobedient Roman Soldier

    Modern discipline, whether that of Frederick the Great's grenadiers or of a SEAL team, is often about ordering men into harm's way. Modern military discipline aims to inculcate a sense of instant obedience to orders which may not be fully understood and which may result in the death of the soldier, who must nonetheless obey. Of course, that's a simplification and it is much more complicated than that, but at heart a modern soldier's discipline is the discipline to go forward into danger when they might really, really not want to do so. The Roman disciplina, in contrast, seems to be about holding one's self back from combat, even when your natural inclination to charge forward and seek glory is pulling you on.
    This is the essence of Eric's argument. But I don't see why this makes the Romans less disciplined or less obedient to orders. It makes them naturally braver, or at least more aggressive and eager for battle. The fact that they managed to constrain their near bestial instincts and that in spite of their love of glory, they considered that holding the line, defending their post and saving their comrades' lives was more important than displaying their individual prowess by killing many enemies is what separates them from the barbarians. Their brutal corporate punishments and their relentless attention to tedious but important tasks when on campaign is what separates them from the Greeks.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

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