Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

  1. #1

    Default Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Hi!

    I am doing a bit of research on the barding of Western knights and Middle east seljuk atabegs in the XIII century. From what I've read so far, it seems that they were not covered in mailed barding as I originally had thought, but were only clothed covers and quilted gambeson (I hope I use that term correctly). Are there any proofs that show that knights and seljuk heavy cavalrymen rode heavily armored horses? Maybe a chest piece, or a small engraving tablet exist somewhere that I don't know.

    I hope that you guys can provide me some clues

    Thank you!

  2. #2
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    8,066

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century


  3. #3

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    That's not really helpful, first thing that anyone would check.

    But frankly, there won't be much, if anything. Caparisons were used by Europeans, and maybe some partials by Seljuks, but metal horse armour wasn't common, mostly because there were few, if any, horse breeds strong enough to carry it and rider in heavy armour. Nisean breed, used by cataphracts, was just about extinct by then, Middle Eastern horses were by then bred more for agility and European breeding hasn't yet reached point where most warhorses could carry metal armour.

    Though if you are determined to try...assuming you tried the basic google search, a good way would be to try searching for specific piece+timeframe and location. Chanfron (head armour) and peytral (chest armour) were most common parts of horse barding.

  4. #4
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    8,066

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    The Byzantines are known to have been using kataphract cavalry as early/late as the 4th crusade.
    What horse breed were they using

    It is estimated that the (lighter than kataphract) combination of padded and chainmail barding for a destrier would weight about 120 kg.
    To that we can add as much for the combat ready armored rider.
    A horse can carry that much and walk but a destrier can carry that and gallop.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    That's not really helpful, first thing that anyone would check.

    But frankly, there won't be much, if anything. Caparisons were used by Europeans, and maybe some partials by Seljuks, but metal horse armour wasn't common, mostly because there were few, if any, horse breeds strong enough to carry it and rider in heavy armour. Nisean breed, used by cataphracts, was just about extinct by then, Middle Eastern horses were by then bred more for agility and European breeding hasn't yet reached point where most warhorses could carry metal armour.

    Though if you are determined to try...assuming you tried the basic google search, a good way would be to try searching for specific piece+timeframe and location. Chanfron (head armour) and peytral (chest armour) were most common parts of horse barding.
    Did the caparison have any protective function, like gambeson, or was it mostly for show? I read somewhere that a gambeson like garmet could have been worn under the caparison for added protection, but haven#t seen any evidence for that.

    If you are charging your horse at a line, the head and chest would be the most exposed target, so the chanfron and peytral would protect the most vulnerable parts of the horse.

  6. #6
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    8,066

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Did the caparison have any protective function, like gambeson?
    Wikipedia says yes but they were use in combination with gambesons for better effect.
    Caparison
    also
    Carlton-in-Lindrick knight



    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    ...or was it mostly for show?
    Heraldry was important until the War of the Roses.



    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I read somewhere that a gambeson like garment could have been worn under the caparison for added protection, but haven't seen any evidence for that.
    I guess it is difficult to know for sure as cloth materials are unlikely to survive that many centuries and a depiction of a caparisoned horse wouldn't likely show what's underneath.



    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    If you are charging your horse at a line, the head and chest would be the most exposed target, so the chanfron and peytral would protect the most vulnerable parts of the horse.
    No disagreement here, just that plate armor for horses seems to have been introduced in the 14th century.
    We know that crusader horses were protected from the sun with caparisons.
    What we don't know is when a padded protection was added underneath.
    Also, later works of art depict horses clad in chain mail. When did that start?
    Last edited by paleologos; March 31, 2020 at 07:00 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuong Vu View Post
    Hi!

    I am doing a bit of research on the barding of Western knights and Middle east seljuk atabegs in the XIII century. From what I've read so far, it seems that they were not covered in mailed barding as I originally had thought, but were only clothed covers and quilted gambeson (I hope I use that term correctly). Are there any proofs that show that knights and seljuk heavy cavalrymen rode heavily armored horses? Maybe a chest piece, or a small engraving tablet exist somewhere that I don't know.

    I hope that you guys can provide me some clues

    Thank you!
    Here is an article from the MET Museum on horse armor.

    https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/hors/hd_hors.htm

    In Europe, mail horse armor started to reappear in thr 12th century, and caparisons were in use by end of the twelfth caparisons were in use. By the first quarter of the thirteenth century it seems both mail trappers and caparisons were in use throughout Europe. Caparisons could provide protection if thickly padded, but mostly they were for displaying heraldic colors or coats of arms.




    Apparenrly there are inventories that testify to a variery of horse armor, mail trappers or thickly padded and quilted trappers.or caparisons, and plate defenses.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    That's not really helpful, first thing that anyone would check.

    But frankly, there won't be much, if anything. Caparisons were used by Europeans, and maybe some partials by Seljuks, but metal horse armour wasn't common, mostly because there were few, if any, horse breeds strong enough to carry it and rider in heavy armour. Nisean breed, used by cataphracts, was just about extinct by then, Middle Eastern horses were by then bred more for agility and European breeding hasn't yet reached point where most warhorses could carry metal armour.

    Though if you are determined to try...assuming you tried the basic google search, a good way would be to try searching for specific piece+timeframe and location. Chanfron (head armour) and peytral (chest armour) were most common parts of horse barding.
    Friesians, which we find in illustrations dating to the 11th century, can weigh up to 1400 lbs and would.seem big enough to carry both and armored knight and an armored horse. A study found that horses could comfortably carry 29% of its weight. For a Friesian weighing around 1100 lbs, that would mean they could carry 319 lbs, and even assuming thd knight weighed 200 lbs, that still means he could carry 60 lbs of armor and still have 60 lbs of horse armor, easily enough for a mail trapper.

    Perhaps in the early Middle Ages European horses were not big enough, but by the 11th century, based on illustrations they seem to be. The horses of thr Bayeux Tapestry would sesm large enough to handle a mail trapper.


    https://thehorse.com/115953/how-much...fortably-carry

  9. #9

    Default Re: Horse armors of knights and seljuk turks in the XIII century

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    That's not really helpful, first thing that anyone would check.

    But frankly, there won't be much, if anything. Caparisons were used by Europeans, and maybe some partials by Seljuks, but metal horse armour wasn't common, mostly because there were few, if any, horse breeds strong enough to carry it and rider in heavy armour. Nisean breed, used by cataphracts, was just about extinct by then, Middle Eastern horses were by then bred more for agility and European breeding hasn't yet reached point where most warhorses could carry metal armour.

    Though if you are determined to try...assuming you tried the basic google search, a good way would be to try searching for specific piece+timeframe and location. Chanfron (head armour) and peytral (chest armour) were most common parts of horse barding.
    Hi! I thank you for your response to this thread. Your comment is very insightful. I have never paid attention the kind of horse and his endurance. Do you know any book or article that specifically dwell into different kinds of warhorses?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •