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Thread: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

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  1. #1
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    The Hungarian parliament has just approved a new bill that allows the Prime-Minister to govern the country by issuing decrees. The duration of this measure is not precisely determined, but remains indefinite. According to its stipulations, neither elections nor referendums will be held in the meantime, while it also provides the head of government with the necessary authority to suspend the legislative body. Moreover, you can also be imprisoned for ''disseminating news that may endanger public safety''. The reason behind this extremely authoritarian initiative is supposed to be the need for a more rapid and efficient reaction against the current pandemic, but critics instead suggest that it concerns more Orban's effort to concentrate ultimate power with himself and his loyal circle of cronies and collaborators. Orban's administration is marked by such controversial policies, which include the tight control of the media (read: censorship and propaganda) and the mutually beneficial collaboration with several wealthy magnates, at the expense of the fragile Hungarian democracy.



    In my opinion, the new extraordinary powers given to Orban make him look rather similar to Admiral Horthy, the notorious dictator of the interwar Kingdom of Hungary, whom Orban has actually praised as an impeccable statesman. Orban's strategy follows the typical tactic of carefully constructing a populist profile to distract the voters, based mainly on alt-right principles, such as racial purity for the Magyar people and hysterical paranoia over George Soros (whose foundation had ironically financed Orban's early career), while he concentrates on consolidating his grab on power and promote the interests of influential lobbies, like the German automobile industry. Given his shady record, I think the fears of Orban at least partially usurping more authority than constitutionally allowed are rather justified. Unfortunately, the main issue is that Hungary lacks a credible opposition, which can provide a viable alternative.

    The second biggest party is Jobbik, a neo-fascist group founded by Gergely Pongràtz, a hero of the 1956 Budapest uprising, so it's reasonable to that these Antisemitic thugs will manage to be actually worse than Orban. On an international level, the European Union, allegedly our global beacon of humanitarianism and liberalism, has limited its reactions to verbal negativity, without producing anything more tangible. In fact, since the gradual rise of extremist formations in local elections, the EU has pandered to tribalism, albeit only symbolically, presumably in an effort to sabotage Euroskeptics, so, taking into consideration the complete absence of a solid opposition, the future image of Hungary is doubtlessly bleak.

  2. #2
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    What should the EU do? The other Visegrad states, at least Poland would veto every financial or political sanction against Orban's Hungary. The main birth mistake of the East expansion of the EU was to not change the principle of unanimity to majority vote.
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    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    What should the EU do? The other Visegrad states, at least Poland would veto every financial or political sanction against Orban's Hungary. The main birth mistake of the East expansion of the EU was to not change the principle of unanimity to majority vote.
    There's plenty the EU can do from unilateral sanctions that do no require a vote to investigations by the various EU institutions, the real question however is if the EU wants to do anything and risk upsetting german economic interests in Hungary.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    It reminds me of that guy I saw recently in my account page.

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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Here's an alternate view. Not sure I buy it, however; this still seems like an unnecessary power grab.

    Parliamentary systems are notoriously bad at checking executive abuse. Staggered elections and separation of powers are a must in any democracy.
    Last edited by Prodromos; March 30, 2020 at 04:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Its kinda funny, how Brits and Germans who can go to jail for social media posts are more "free" then Hungarians, since from establishmentarian ivory tower freedom is determined by acting government's loyalty to certain foreign interests, rather then actual individual freedom.
    At the end of the day, it is entirely understandable why Central/Eastern Europe replaced Western Europe as real Free World. Former has actual experience of life under a globalist authoritarian structure dictating their will with little consideration to local's interests - and that's why they were first to blow the whistle. Orban won elections fair and square. So accusations of him being "authoritarian" are nothing more then non-substantial complaints of the losing liberal side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    What should the EU do? The other Visegrad states, at least Poland would veto every financial or political sanction against Orban's Hungary. The main birth mistake of the East expansion of the EU was to not change the principle of unanimity to majority vote.

    "Oh no, why did we give them a right to vote if they don't vote the way we like!" - yeah, really shows how much you really care about democracy.

  7. #7
    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Orban won elections fair and square. So accusations of him being "authoritarian" are nothing more then non-substantial complaints of the losing liberal side.
    Your reasoning as always is inspiring. Dismissing valid concerns over actual laws as 'insubstantial loser rants' truly is the pinnacle of argumentation, why bother responding to the concerns? And implying that being elected 'fair and square' provides automatic immunity to being authoritarian is signature worthy.
    Last edited by Gigantus; March 30, 2020 at 09:47 PM.




  8. #8

    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Your reasoning as always is inspiring. Dismissing valid concerns over actual laws as 'insubstantial loser rants' truly is the pinnacle of argumentation, why bother responding to the concerns? And implying that being elected 'fair and square' provides automatic immunity to being authoritarian is signature worthy.
    Hungarians are still able to vote him out. If they decide to do so. Just because you don't like what Hungarians chose doesn't mean that the nation is somehow undemocratic, especially since such rules and regulations are being brought in almost universally. Not to mention that we wouldn't really have to dismiss "concerns" from a side that seems to really put a blind eye on authoritarianism that enforces its own beliefs. In other words, if one is perfectly fine with UK and Germany arresting their citizens over social media posts, don't be surprised that one's crying "authoritarianism" about a politician one doesn't like will be taken with a grain of salt from more unbiased and rational folk.

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    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Hungarians are still able to vote him out. If they decide to do so. Just because you don't like what Hungarians chose doesn't mean that the nation is somehow undemocratic, especially since such rules and regulations are being brought in almost universally. Not to mention that we wouldn't really have to dismiss "concerns" from a side that seems to really put a blind eye on authoritarianism that enforces its own beliefs. In other words, if one is perfectly fine with UK and Germany arresting their citizens over social media posts, don't be surprised that one's crying "authoritarianism" about a politician one doesn't like will be taken with a grain of salt from more unbiased and rational folk.
    You are making a lot of rather silly assumptions as usual.

    I am perfectly fine with what the Hungarians have chosen - every nation deserves what they elected. My beef is with the principle of giving omnipotent powers to what they have elected, which incidentally makes it impossible to vote that out again. (irony where is thy sting?)
    Your comparison about arrests is flawed (and without source) whataboutism as usual: you forget to mention by how much I have to lower my mental acuity to accept that someone got arrested for posting on social media. Using that then as disqualifier for voicing arguments is piss poor argumentation at it's best. Tip: misleading by omitting vital information does wonders for your credibility.

    How about arguing why the man should get omnipotent powers (the base for authoritarian rule), eg why you are fine with him having absolute powers instead of making ridiculous arguments like the above why no one is qualified to talk about it?
    You do have an argument supporting him being on his way to God Emperor having sweeping, if not absolute, powers, don't you?
    Apologies for making an assumption here myself based on your rigorous attempts to undermine comments against him getting those powers.
    Last edited by Gigantus; March 31, 2020 at 10:10 PM.




  10. #10
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Hungarians are still able to vote him out.
    Nope.I can't say I'm surprised. At the present time, Orban is the Europe's first dictator. Thanks to a new coronavirus law, Orban now rules by decree, no by-elections can be held, and the special powers have no time limit, for as long as he sees fit.I repeat, no elections or referendums can be held while it is in place.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 01, 2020 at 11:33 AM.
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    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Hungarians are still able to vote him out. If they decide to do so. Just because you don't like what Hungarians chose doesn't mean that the nation is somehow undemocratic
    very generally, and not specifically in regards to Hungary, being voted executive powers that enable one to pass laws and dismiss parliament without their consent is considered authoritarian, in the classical sense that a dictatorship is considered authoritarian. A personalist dictatorship if you want to be exact is the term that could be used for what Hungary is now. The Parliament could of course ask for its powers back, and the Hungarian people could try to vote Orban out, but nothing is preventing him from saying no and ignoring any election result that doesn't go in his favor. Also this gives him 2 years at least to prevent such a result.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Again, Hungary is not the only country that enacted such type of legislature, nor is Hungarian bill the most authoritarian one (at least compared to places like California or even Australia). That bill has also been approved by nation's democratically-elected parliament. I guess we will have to wait and see if Orban does indeed end it once the crisis is over.
    Judging by the article posted by OP, the main source of grudges comes from groups and individuals that aren't exactly known for tackling authoritarianism of certain other governments in Europe (former Italian PM with lunatic dreams of "united states of Europe" being a shining example) - so in that context it makes sense to view Hungary-bashing as something to do with pro-EU groups lamenting the fact that small, but rebellious nation resists them, rather then concern for freedoms that they gladly step on in the name of "fighting extremism" and such.
    Pointing that out would not be necessary if OP presented this as a debate on freedom vs public safety, without spicing it up with generic pro-EU partisanship.

  13. #13
    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Again, Hungary is not the only country that enacted such type of legislature, nor is Hungarian bill the most authoritarian one (at least compared to places like California or even Australia). That bill has also been approved by nation's democratically-elected parliament. I guess we will have to wait and see if Orban does indeed end it once the crisis is over.
    Judging by the article posted by OP, the main source of grudges comes from groups and individuals that aren't exactly known for tackling authoritarianism of certain other governments in Europe (former Italian PM with lunatic dreams of "united states of Europe" being a shining example) - so in that context it makes sense to view Hungary-bashing as something to do with pro-EU groups lamenting the fact that small, but rebellious nation resists them, rather then concern for freedoms that they gladly step on in the name of "fighting extremism" and such.
    Pointing that out would not be necessary if OP presented this as a debate on freedom vs public safety, without spicing it up with generic pro-EU partisanship.
    While I appreciate your attempt at a coherent argument I fear you fail to address anything raised by the OP and rather (once again) start off with whataboutism in your very first sentence and jumping to the defense of Hungary as a whole instead of addressing the actual issue.
    You also conveniently fail to notice (here is that misleading again I spoke about) that there never was a question about the legality of the law passed, the premise of the OP was to point out it's implication. It's actually in the very first sentence of the OP: "The Hungarian parliament has just approved a new bill that allows the Prime-Minister to govern the country by issuing decrees." You must have read that far given your complaint about 'spicing up', what made you ignore it?
    And do I really have to repeat my observation about making silly assumptions based on misconceptions?: "...makes sense to view Hungary-bashing as something to do with pro-EU groups lamenting.."

    So I guess your answer is a resounding 'No' to my question 'You do have an argument supporting him having sweeping, if not absolute, powers, don't you?

    Did I mention that posting in the same spirit that you complain about in others' posts is utterly ridiculous? Like complaining about 'spicing up' versus 'lunatic dreams of "united states of Europe"' by yourself? Using phrases like that as clubs in an attempt to beat others into submission is usually a last resort once you run out of arguments, but then you don't really have an argument to start with so I presume it's more a case of 'instead', not 'last resort'.
    Last edited by Gigantus; March 31, 2020 at 11:48 PM. Reason: grammar, she's a fickle beast




  14. #14

    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    While I appreciate your attempt at a coherent argument I fear you fail to address anything raised by the OP and rather (once again) start off with whataboutism in your very first sentence and jumping to the defense of Hungary as a whole instead of addressing the actual issue.
    You also conveniently fail to notice (here is that misleading again I spoke about) that there never was a question about the legality of the law passed, the premise of the OP was to point out it's implication. It's actually in the very first sentence of the OP: "The Hungarian parliament has just approved a new bill that allows the Prime-Minister to govern the country by issuing decrees." You must have read that far given your complaint about 'spicing up', what made you ignore it?
    And do I really have to repeat my observation about making silly assumptions based on misconceptions?: "...makes sense to view Hungary-bashing as something to do with pro-EU groups lamenting.."

    So I guess your answer is a resounding 'No' to my question 'You do have an argument supporting him having sweeping, if not absolute, powers, don't you?

    Did I mention that posting in the same spirit that you complain about in others' posts is utterly ridiculous? Like complaining about 'spicing up' versus 'lunatic dreams of "united states of Europe"' by yourself? Using phrases like that as clubs in an attempt to beat others into submission is usually a last resort once you run out of arguments, but then you don't really have an argument to start with so I presume it's more a case of 'instead', not 'last resort'.
    While I am amused by the attempts at condescending remarks, I don't really see any arguments present by OP to address in the first place. All he did was stating that legally passed bill (thankfully now we all admitted that) will make Orban a functional dictator. Then he compared him to Hungarian dictator Horthy. I recall he did the same before in his other Hungary-bashing threads, and it seems that the issue with these threads and posts is in Orban's euroskpetic and nationalist stance rather then his authoritarianism - since we don't see threads and posts about say Germany or UK coming from the same source, which seems to have a problem with euroskpeticism and nationalism rather then with authoritarianism, which he merely uses as an excuse to attack the "far-right" and other boogeymen that establishmentarian sources tell us to be be afraid of. This isn't whataboutism - just observation of expressed bias.
    Now we can talk about implications - but then again, we have to look at global context and in that context such accusations have to be leveled across the board, from Canada and US to Europe and East Asia. I do find such measures in general as a dangerous precedent - individual freedoms in retrospective are far more important then concerns for public safety, since latter is almost always lost after the former is given up.

    I guess the advise one can give to OP is to put personal beliefs in specific government'' policies aside when discussing such issues, since by expressing bias over those policies he negates the rational concern about the above-mentioned issue.

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    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    at least compared to places like California
    didn't realize the President of California had supreme executive powers

    I guess we will have to wait and see if OrbanSulla does indeed end it once the crisis is over
    I think its ironic how you talk about free markets in the other threads then are perfectly fine with a strong man stepping in and giving power to his cronies in the name of keeping out le evil Soros, refugees and coronavirus.

    fascism really is a merger of capital and state power

    I hope hungarians enjoy their permanent slave labor laws

  16. #16

    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    This reminds me of the reorganization of the Galactic Republic into the first Galactic Empire.

  17. #17
    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    There are certain similarities in it, for my part it's 'this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause' where some of the comments here are concerned.




  18. #18
    irontaino's Avatar Pizza time!
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    "Blatant power grabs are totally fine as long as it's someone I like" - HH.
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    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    "Blatant power grabs are totally fine as long as it's someone I like" - HH.
    Literally the post above:
    I do find such measures in general as a dangerous precedent - individual freedoms in retrospective are far more important then concerns for public safety, since latter is almost always lost after the former is given up.
    Blatantly lying about other people's posts will sure do wonders to your credibility.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Hungary: Orban's Next Step towards Authoritarianism

    Soo, it looks like OP's claims are debunked:
    • The law had to be approved by the Parliament and it passed with 137 votes for and 53 against.
    • It declared a state of emergency.
    • It empowered the government to pass decrees to face the coronavirus emergency.
    • The Parliament can revoke the authorization accorded to the government at any time it sees appropriate.
    • The bill cannot and does not contain any restrictions on the activities of the Parliament;
    • The government is required to keep Parliament at its sittings informed about the measures adopted with a view to eliminating the state of emergency.
    • The authorization that is given to the government is also limited: it may only adopt exceptional measures that are necessary and proportionate in the context of the coronavirus pandemic to protect citizens’ life, health and security.
    • Rule of law is not suspended.
    • The Constitutional Court is fully operational under the supervision of the President and Secretary General.
    • Concerning the elections, no by-elections can be held during the state of emergency, and any already scheduled elections will be cancelled. Postponed elections must be scheduled within 15 days of the end of the state of emergency.
    • Only intentional false statements made to the general public that could obstruct or frustrate defense efforts against the pandemic would be sanctioned.
    • Anyone who makes preparations for hindering a disease control measure is punishable with imprisonment for up to one year.
    • A person who, during the special legal order, utters or publishes before the public at large a statement they know to be false which is capable of hindering or frustrating the effectiveness of the containment effort is punishable by imprisonment for one to five years.
    So the bill is pretty much entirely focused on curbing the pandemic and doesn't repress any individual freedoms outside the context of dealing with pandemic. In other words, you can go around saying " Orban" in Hungary and you won't be arrested. You just can't (temporarily) say stuff like "let's all go outside and hug each other" (like western liberal left did less then a month ago while calling pandemic a right-wing hoax).
    Now I do still have a problem with limitations on free speech, as we see in example of Germany and UK, laws like that always end up being abused by the system. Having said that, there is no evidence that bill will remain in place after pandemic is over. I guess we will have to wait and see.

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