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Thread: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

  1. #61
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    And i have the feeling you can't confess, that you simply have misunderstood who appoints the PP. You show exactly that behaviour, for which you critizise VZ.
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  2. #62
    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    why do you think i am talking about the consul and not about the citizens who voted?

    Edit: I have the feeling you just dont want to answer my first question.

    I'm of the mind the entire tangent was spawned in ill faith to make a nonexistent point by asserting that someone was elected, therefore anything bad they do is on the heads of those electing instead of the people instructing that improper procedure is followed by the elected party and said elected party went along with it in addition to having a bad attitude when that improper procedure was followed and called on.

    It's borderline senseless. It's okay to admit something went wrong; there is no need to try and use logical hoops to deflect any sort of guilt from responsible parties that are not being presented as straight up bad people for making the lapses (at least, shouldn't be in my view), and the entire matter would have probably fizzed out if an approach more like z3ns was used + stuck to and VZ actually mustered some care for this instead of someone trying to pull a lawyering game on faulty logic.

    I wouldn't suggest even trying to debate with that, as I'm of the mind it is willfully trying to stave off clarity itself on the matter.

  3. #63
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Well, best wishes to the curia, be more dialogant, commodus say yes to moderation staff.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  4. #64
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    The 'spirit of the constitution' is open to interpretation and abuse. That's why we do not stand or fall by the spirit. We do so by the word.

    Had VZ responded in a contrite fashion and resigned this could have been resolved quickly. He didn't. So now we have a PP who not only breached the constitution but deemed it unnecessary to acknowledge the breach. That alone makes him unworthy.

    The 'he made me do it' has never been and is not now, a defence.

  5. #65
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Oppose. Within the spirit (if not the letter) of the Constitution, I don't see a problem with the Primus Praefectus taking over administrative duties in the absence of both the Curator and any Censors - he is still an elected Curial official after all and someone is going to have to do it. I'm not sure it was entirely - or, to be honest, at all - necessary in this instance, and VZ could perhaps have conducted himself with a little more decorum, but, simply put, no harm no foul. Yes, ideally one would wait the requisite amount of time as stipulated in the Constitution, and then consult with the Curial body before taking action, but Hader seems to have greenlit this in advance, even if some wires appear to have gotten crossed. So an election thread went up a little early and was subsequently closed; it's hardly a coup d'etat. If the argument is that VZ has since acted in a manner unbecoming of his office or his citizenship, then perhaps a referral would be the more appropriate course of action, as - for whatever reason - one can't actually be VonC'ed for that, as it is neither dereliction of duty, nor abuse of authority.
    Neither do I, but in this case KA was still active and he could also do it. So I wonder, why didn't VZ notify KA about posting the Consul election threads.


    There is also another thing I am curious about. Why didn't Hader resigned in January when he became aware of his military duties that could make him occupied later due to the Corona pandemic.
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Neither do I, but in this case KA was still active and he could also do it. So I wonder, why didn't VZ notify KA about posting the Consul election threads.
    Regardless of what he's running for, isn't KA a praefect, thus even less well suited as a next rung to look into than VZ? The censors are the ones who should have been fallen to, and from the looks of it, they were neither the first choices taken nor were they especially active to be chosen.

    Having the censors in line at that time I would say is the best hindsight path by far, even if resignation might have been noble if it was more certain he would be gone. But with the uncertainty, seems just having censors online would suffice.

  7. #67
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Regardless of what he's running for, isn't KA a praefect, thus even less well suited as a next rung to look into than VZ? The censors are the ones who should have been fallen to, and from the looks of it, they were neither the first choices taken nor were they especially active to be chosen.

    Having the censors in line at that time I would say is the best hindsight path by far, even if resignation might have been noble if it was more certain he would be gone. But with the uncertainty, seems just having censors online would suffice.
    I guess you missed my post.

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  8. #68
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    The 'spirit of the constitution' is open to interpretation and abuse. That's why we do not stand or fall by the spirit. We do so by the word.
    That's a steaming pile of and you know it.
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I don't see how that has any relevance at all, especially from a chain of command perspective. I want to say you're telling me that praefects, not the primus praefect, should be posting the threads in a situation of absence. I don't see that reflected in the quote, but if it's in the constitution somewhere, I could buy that, even if it could slightly pitch KA at the bus (and honestly, if a praefect is capable, I believe the primus should be equally so if the responsibility falls to them).

    If not, I'm afraid I'm being slow and need a rephrasing of the point.

  10. #70
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    That's a steaming pile of and you know it.
    We've spent hours, sometimes weeks discussing the minutia of constitutional wording, we don't do that so we can interpret the 'spirit' of the wording.

  11. #71
    Lord William's Avatar Duke of Nottingham
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    are we actually debating this, do people actually care anymore?

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  12. #72
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    are we actually debating this, do people actually care anymore?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William
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    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  13. #73
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    ^ Could be more of a 'what an obvious answer, duh' kind of post where what he voted for should be the obvious outcome. Without seeing more of an opinion we can't really say, though.

    Perhaps there would be merits to discussing the constitution/curia and its modern viability in another thread, as elements of both seem to be clearly a continuous matter of debate.

  14. #74
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    VonC failed, closed & archived.
    Last edited by Hader; April 06, 2020 at 12:12 PM.

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