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Thread: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

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    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Support: Love Mountain; Akar; Leonardo; Mhaedros;

    Dear citizens,

    It is with heavy heart that I have decided to issue a Vote of no Confidence against Van Zandt. Van Zandt, against the rules set in the Constitution has started an Election Thread, Stopped an Election Thread and demonstrated he has no understanding of the document that is the Constitution. This has led me to conclude that Van Zandt is unfit to remain as Primus Preafectus and should be issued a vote of no confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Hader asked me to post the election threads in his absence, as I mentioned in the application thread. Due to the circumstances he was not sure if he was going to return. The Censors have not been active and creating threads and polls is not outside the scope of the Praefects, who are full moderators of the Curia.

    Hader is still Consul as he has not been removed via absence or subject to a VONC. Since he has indicated he will return and resume his responsibilities than the decisions now lay in his court.

    Elections have been delayed before without much outcry. It seems unlikely that this delay will have any adverse impact on the process.
    I ask you citizens to pay close attention that the only rule, stipulating that the Primus Preafectus can post an election is not to be considered here. Because Hader was on-site enough not to invoke the following rule.

    Stipulations of Article II 12 If the Consul is absent (has not logged into the site) for seven days without giving a notice of absence, is absent for more than fifteen days regardless of notice, resigns, or is subject to a successful Vote of No Confidence (VoNC), they are automatically removed from office along with any appointed censors. Any decisions of the office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. When such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office is empty does not count towards the limit until a new Consul is elected. When the office of the Consul is empty, the Primus Praefect will organize the election of a new Consul, and assume day-to-day administration of the Curia.
    Article II stipulates the powers of each office clearly. The Censors aid the Consul in his duties, Article III says an election is the Consul's Duty. As per constitution, only a Censor would be eligible to take over said responsibility because they assist in the Curial Tasks. The Primus Preafectus has no business doing this, how good willed it may be. Article III further states that when an article is complete, it should move to vote. Something Van Zandt is also refusing to do.

    Article II
    The Consul acts as a local moderator of the Curia and is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks are accomplished. Two Censors, appointed by the Consul, assist with Curial tasks and review referrals from Curial infractions.11 Magistrates review Moderation actions in the Tribunal. Praefects are the full moderators of the Curia and its related fora.7


    Article III For every election the Consul opens a thread for applications3 to the vacant position and another one for all questions and discussion4. The Administration may veto any applicant.

    Once applications are complete, the Consul opens a poll in the Curia Vote forum5. The member who receives the highest number of votes is elected to the position.6



    To summarize, Van Zandt thinks this is within his power as Primus Preafectus. It clearly is not via the Constitution. Even if every citizen here would say, this is not much of an issue and Van Zandt did good. Then he still violated to constitution, Article III by willfully not sending a complete application to vote. Which Article III stipulates. If we now do chose not to follow the Constitution, I expect you all to vote in favor of it dissolution when this VonC doesn't carry. If we forsake the rules we all made, we all can change, we all need to adhere too. Then there is no need to have them at all.
    Last edited by General Brewster; March 29, 2020 at 03:10 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    With a heavy heart, and after lengthy deliberations... I'm inclined to agree with you Brew.

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    Akar's Avatar Faustian Bargain Maker
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Support. Van Zandt has shown himself to be unfit for office, as evidenced by what Brewster has posted in this thread as well as for his posts in the election debate thread.

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    Van Zandt's Avatar pulvis et umbra
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Oppose. Van Zandt has a sterling character and a heart of gold.



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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Oppose. Van Zandt has a Bronze POTW medal, and thus has more strength of character in his pinkie than you guys do in your entire bodies.
    Plus this is such a dumb VoNC, there's no way I'm supporting it.


    Edit: In light of recent developments I've decided to change this to an Abstain for the time being...
    Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; March 28, 2020 at 08:04 PM.




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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Oppose, minor transgression if one at all and VonC doesn't seem proportional. Besides, in these trying times, we should all consider being friendlier with each other for the good of the community and unity in the curia. Turn that frown upside down, give someone a divus or something
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Aside from the impressively horrible defense mustered above, I'm gonna have to break the crowd on this one. Slow I am, this was written before two opposes were put in line.

    A bit of half-ass background research would tell me that there are no active censors at the moment. Hader has been absent for a little while and not responsive in the Curia at the time core events (Consul election) are taking place. There are multiple contingencies here.
    - It is claimed that Hader deferred responsibilities to VZ in his short absence. On the same token, it is claimed that Hader will return tomorrow. Given the sheer speed of events, I'll make two statements here. First, this 's moving super quickly, and it may be best to get an explanation - it takes minimal time to verify the claim if Hader gives evidence he exists and indicates yes, he dictated this or no, he did not; the latter seals VZ's coffin, the former points to statement 2 - that this is clearly a multi-level miscommunication that started with the Consul bypassing his Censors and taking the matter straight to the Primus Praefect, which itself was the first egregious breach of protocol to be brought up and addressed.
    - If the above that VZ was basically told to handle things in Hader's absence was a lie, consider the next bits void and consider my support to be given in addition to a recommendation of referral.
    - While by the word of law, VZ indeed oversteps his authority, it would seem to me that the process conducted here is not entirely fair. First of all, we should wait to hear what is going on. The Consul, after all, should be handling this per constitution as it applies in this case, and if he's coming back very soon then it is trivial in the Curia's timespan to wait for the full information to be available. If what is stated is true, the primary fault lies on Hader, and the source should be addressed in tandem with or before the symptom, if VZ's claim - which he fails to bring here, I'm stretching I know - is correct. By first proving VZ wrong or realizing that Hader broke constitutional procedure in giving the green light for this, we can come up with a solid process for how to approach the issue (such as, what the hell is going on with the censor stuff, people who should have been the ones tapped to do this stuff). And the only hex who bothers with the curia, wearing his big red text and possessing more power than any one of the parts at play here, can be a persuasive figure indeed, even if I believe that should be no excuse and even a hex should be reminded of a process that the PriPre is appointed to help maintain order with.

    We should find out if the crime is laziness, misunderstanding, or powermongering before unfurling the noose. I'm not comfortable engaging in action without a more complete picture. This is not an opposition as there was clearly wrong done here. But it is a plea to learning more before proceeding.

  8. #8
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Not the best way to start a morning, but oh well...

    I definitely cant say I have been aware of any of this happening, so I will wait to see from more people.

  9. #9
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    This VonC seems similiar against Hitai 1½ years ago.

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    Turkafinwë's Avatar The Absurdist
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    I agree with Commodus. Let's wait and see what Hader has to say and clarify this business, before crucifying anyone.

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  11. #11
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    I am slightly disappointed to see that this process is not about Van Zandt's attitude, unfit for a Moderator. One does not have to go very far to look for examples, a stupid joke (so far) in this thread, unfortunate behavior in general in this discussion, refusing to dialogue with fellow citizens and accusing them of harassing him, speaking with an irresponsibility improper from any citizen, in the most bizarre way possible, his subordinate had to act...

    It is clear that he has acted outside the constitution, taking on tasks that were not his due regardless of whether Hader instructed him to do so. If Hader instructed him to do so, Hader also failed to comply with the constitution.

    Why were no elections held to replace the absent censors?
    Last edited by mishkin; March 29, 2020 at 05:10 AM. Reason: added information
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    No election would be held. Censors are Consul appointed.

    Some of those examples I'd have to argue with, as I've argued one already, but then I am not exactly a model citizen in style myself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  13. #13

    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Sorry Guys, i see no reason for a VonC.

    The Constitution declares:

    12 If the Consul is absent (has not logged into the site) for seven days without giving a notice of absence, is absent for more than fifteen days regardless of notice, resigns, or is subject to a successful Vote of No Confidence (VoNC), they are automatically removed from office along with any appointed censors. Any decisions of the office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. When such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office is empty does not count towards the limit until a new Consul is elected. When the office of the Consul is empty, THE PRIMUS PRAEFECT will organize the election of a new Consul, and assume day-to-day administration of the Curia.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=1#post1557997

    VanZandt has said:

    Hader asked me to post the election threads in his absence, as I mentioned in the application thread. Due to the circumstances he was not sure if he was going to return. The Censors have not been active and creating threads and polls is not outside the scope of the Praefects, who are full moderators of the Curia.

    Hader is still Consul as he has not been removed via absence or subject to a VONC. Since he has indicated he will return and resume his responsibilities than the decisions now lay in his court.

    Elections have been delayed before without much outcry. It seems unlikely that this delay will have any adverse impact on the process.
    So the consul declared, he is high likely absent because of (RL) circumstances, the by him appointed censors are undoubtly inactice and absent for months in the curia, who if not the from the Constitution authorized Primus Praefect can and must organize elections for a new consul and assume the day-to-day-business?

    So VZ was absolutely in his competence as he organized the election for a new consul.

    And if you think, he has no right to organize elections in the case of a vacancy, then be consequent, then the whole application thread for a new consul is null and void from the beginning .

    No reason for a VonC.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; March 29, 2020 at 06:26 AM.
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  14. #14
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Morticia, I do not believe that the criteria for the election of a new consul due to his absence (or his vonc) are met . (although my curialist abilities are clearly reduced)

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    No election would be held. Censors are Consul appointed.
    Right, I forgotten, sorry. Tomorrow* Hader will tell you why he did not. I hope the answer is not that he had appointed Van Zandt as censor.

    Some of those examples I'd have to argue with, as I've argued one already, but then I am not exactly a model citizen in style myself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    You are not a bad citizen at all from what I have seen (I've seen few bad citizens), and Van Zandt occupies a very important curia position. A dismissive attitude (to put it in some way) would be a very acceptable criticism in an application for the position of moderation leader (Primus Praefect) in the curia.

    *I think you should be a bit more compromising with the times due to the current RL situation.
    Last edited by mishkin; March 29, 2020 at 06:35 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Sorry Guys, i see no reason for a VonC.

    The Constitution declares:

    12 If the Consul is absent (has not logged into the site) for seven days without giving a notice of absence, is absent for more than fifteen days regardless of notice, resigns, or is subject to a successful Vote of No Confidence (VoNC), they are automatically removed from office along with any appointed censors. Any decisions of the office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. When such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office is empty does not count towards the limit until a new Consul is elected. When the office of the Consul is empty, THE PRIMUS PRAEFECT will organize the election of a new Consul, and assume day-to-day administration of the Curia.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=1#post1557997

    VanZandt has said:



    So the consul declared, he is high likely absent because of (RL) circumstances, the by him appointed censors are undoubtly inactice and absent for months in the curia, who if not the from the Constitution authorized Primus Praefect can and must organize elections for a new consul and assume the day-to-day-business?

    So VZ was absolutely in his competence as he organized the election for a new consul.
    I've highlighted the condition on which he could have acted in your own quotation. Mishkin is right, the criteria have not been met. Also your second highlight in your quotation is plain wrong in this context. Hader had not been removed from office so the office of Consul was and is not vacant. Thus reinforcing that VZ went beyond the limitations of his office. All this line of debate does Mortitia is show that VZ did even more wrong than I am accusing him off here.

    And if you think, he has no right to organize elections in the case of a vacancy, then be consequent, then the whole application thread for a new consul is null and void from the beginning .

    No reason for a VonC.
    Oh but it is. I never said it wasn't. Frankly I even said I appreciated his pro-active approach. It's his second constitutional violation, stopping the election when it was complete, that bothered me the most. I'm fine with invalidating the entire election. As Hader's Curial Service Award should then also be invalidated.

    If this is no reason for a vonc the entire process should be removed from the constitution. Mistakes can be made but multiple constitutional breaches and a complete lack of knowledge about the constitution is a clear indication someone is not fit for office.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Morticia, I do not believe that the criteria for the election of a new consul due to his absence (or his vonc) are met . (although my curialist abilities are clearly reduced)
    You are right Mish.

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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Morticia, I do not believe that the criteria for the election of a new consul due to his absence (or his vonc) are met . (although my curialist abilities are clearly reduced)
    Quite, Morticia's premise is incorrect. His last login, the metric for activity, is the 27th. The line is blurred due to the real world causing trouble and making him unable to seriously commit. It would seem to me that we have a case of Hader simply taking the most expedient path by using the highest ranking official that's active he can find to get the job done. Per constitution, the foundation of critique in this thread, that's not how to do it. Censors are appointed, thus the responsibility of the Consul to ensure are available, and not having the ducks in a row is simply not responsible. Per constitution, the existence of everyone who should be doing the job and the lack of applicable constitutional exceptions should be more than enough to say that VZ was technically not supposed to do this.

    But this is why I was opposed to outright condemnation in the first place, as I increasingly believe this was a communication problem mixed with a liberal grasp on the constitution (which some are probably thinking is just an archaic limiting doc that is little more than guidelines to an overly bureaucratic structure, anyways). The censors were not available, the Consul was to be out at the critical time. VZ seemed an appealing subject to take control of something that, in most circumstances, wouldn't have even been given the blink of an eye. Had it gone smoothly and nobody taken issue this thread probably wouldn't exist. This is why further deliberation on the subject should wait for Hader to clear things up, and we can decide if we want to take action from there, or let him go out the door with a 'that's not right' and not terribly much drama. This decision will probably be remembered if either of them attempt to take on a role again anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    A dismissive attitude (to put it in some way) would be a very acceptable criticism in an application for the position of moderation leader (Primus Praefect) in the curia.
    We can be certain this will be remembered if he puts in for the position again. There are problems and I agree that they should not be let go in the case of another election.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    *I think you should be a bit more compromising with the times due to the current RL situation.
    I don't intend to push at all for the time being, myself. Others have the right to demand as they like. But I am quite aware that life is at the moment and Hader is literally in the epicenter of the crisis that actually matters in the world. That should be kept in mind for a reasonable time. I only really used 'tomorrow' to borrow VZ's wording anyways.

  17. #17
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    I find this from the Amendments of Hader's Curial Overhaul Order 66 intresting.

    Item 3: Censors and Curator's Assistants

    Since the Censor's old job of managing referrals is now in the hands of the Praefects, they will instead retain the name and distinction as the official Curator's Assistants instead. They will assume all duties of the Curator's Assistants as before, and this essentially just moves the badge and name over for assistants to have, and the Curator badge to be strictly reserved for the Curator only. They will no longer be an elected position, but chosen by the Curator, as assistants have been. It is recommended however that the Curator pay attention to those with little experience and wanting to gain more, to help build confidence and ability in the position for future applicants to the Curator position. There will remain no limit to the number of Censors in this regard, though it is advised to keep the number modest as well (2-3 on average is probably a good amount).

    These syntax changes are reflected in other areas of this proposal, as they affect multiple parts of the constitution, but aside from the changes to the referral process for who does what, there is little other syntax amendment required for this (that I have noticed, though thorough as I hope I am, I am not perfect either...well, only on Tuesdays at least). If anyone sees this must be reflected in the Constitution elsewhere beyond where the other parts of this proposal already change, let me know.

    Now, if I understood this correctly, it seems Brew is correct and only Praefects can/should post an election thread if either the Consul or a Censor(s) are not active, so I think VZ violated the constitution when he posted the election thread.
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    @General:

    The position of consul is not only empty, if the Consul is VoNC'd. It is also empty, if the Consul is absent or resigned. It has no literally restriction on the case of being VoNC'd.

    Your restriction of "empty position" on the case of being VoNC'd has no backup in the wording of the constitution.

    @Commodus:

    Do we certainly know, that Hader was not absent for more than a week, as VZ started the election thread one week ago?

    No.
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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    But this is why I was opposed to outright condemnation in the first place, as I increasingly believe this was a communication problem mixed with a liberal grasp on the constitution (which some are probably thinking is just an archaic limiting doc that is little more than guidelines to an overly bureaucratic structure, anyways). The censors were not available, the Consul was to be out at the critical time. VZ seemed an appealing subject to take control of something that, in most circumstances, wouldn't have even been given the blink of an eye. Had it gone smoothly and nobody taken issue this thread probably wouldn't exist. This is why further deliberation on the subject should wait for Hader to clear things up, and we can decide if we want to take action from there, or let him go out the door with a 'that's not right' and not terribly much drama. This decision will probably be remembered if either of them attempt to take on a role again anyways.
    I think I share with you the impression that there is a certain idea of "the important thing is that this works, it is not necessary to strictly follow the constitution." A point of view with which I do not disagree, but I think it should be clarified.

    I don't intend to push at all for the time being, myself. Others have the right to demand as they like. But I am quite aware that life is at the moment and Hader is literally in the epicenter of the crisis that actually matters in the world. That should be kept in mind for a reasonable time. I only really used 'tomorrow' to borrow VZ's wording anyways.
    it was not my intention to insinuate that someone was pressing Hader.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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    Imperator Majora's Avatar What's under your mask?
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    @Commodus:

    Do we certainly know, that Hader was not absent for more than a week, as VZ started the election thread one week ago?

    No.
    If he can or cannot be proven absent in that time (we can't know for sure due to forum limitations and must fall on other facts) is irrelevant.

    If he was, VZ should have started a process to replace Hader on the spot, something that would have different language than what was used.

    If he was not, and was clearly active enough to tell VZ to do it (assuming VZ was told to do it), then he was active enough to defer authority. The authority then fell on the wrong place. Censors should be maintained in order to keep the process running smoothly. They clearly were not and the activity gap is too large for their absence to have been impossible to note in time for this, so at the very least there was an issue with planning who takes on what.

    By the post you quoted and used to base your point, "Hader is still Consul as he has not been removed via absence". With this any point you're trying to make with the snipe is gone.

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