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Thread: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

  1. #41
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    There had been minor need for one at best for pretty much my entire last year in the position. It's no secret curial activity overall has been down a good while, funny how it always picks up because of drama. I should probably have asked for another censor at some point yes, but it was hardly on the forefront of my mind or a priority given the low activity.


    To be clear, I was notified of being activated as a national guard unit the day I posted in the Politia to let these guys know I would be gone for a few days at least. That was the mission at the time. Knowing the gravity of the whole situation surrounding COVID though, I figured it was something that would likely get extended, so I made it clear that may happen. And it did happen, on a day by day basis getting extended further and further. Technically, I am still activated, and on that mission. Just quarantined for now. I could have PMed StealthFox that day when I found out, but that wasn't foremost on my mind, and I instead just posted about it for all praefects/censors to see.


    The wrench was a miscommunication, or a non communication, as it wasn't something I thought would be an issue. I'm sure you're familiar with the Politia thread for keeping track of election dates and whatnot for the consul; that I have updated and kept with the right dates for threads and such. I was unaware that VZ wasn't aware of this one, or at the very least what I was going off of for correct dates. So I do not believe the starting of the election earlier than scheduled was an intentional breach of power. And I do not think anything done in regards to the election was of malicious intent either; misinterpretation or miscommunication at worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Didn't see this post before my other reply but hopefully some of this is answered by this. But for clarity's sake:

    1. What hindsight is great for, what I should have done: at the very least, PMed StealthFox and gotten a hold of him. As I said before, not my first thought when I had but a day to prepare. In even further hindsight, another/new censors would also have been preferable. And again as I said before, given the relative quiet of the curia as of late, was yet another thing not quite that pressing to accomplish right away. It doesn't excuse it completely, but it's just how things were prioritized.

    2. As mentioned, not out of malice or ill intent to screw up the process. The opposite in fact.

    3. A miscommunication, or lack of communication on the right dates.

    4. Technically wrong per Constitution, yes; however, I'd reckon it was out of a desire to not continue the process any longer than absolutely necessary. I had posted the other day (Friday) when I got home finally that I would soon be able to get back, but had to decontaminate literally everything about my and my stuff. That took the better part of yesterday, as expected, so I wasn't on the other night either.

    5. I believe the above answers this part as well? Or am I missing something.
    Hader, you are not the one facing the VonC here. There's no need to pull it towards yourself. I have nothing but respect for going on military assignments. Especially in a pandemic.
    Anyway, you are not responsible for the breach of constitution protocol. You can wrap it in any kind of paper you want. You asked something Unconstitutional, Van Zandt did multiple Unconstitutional things. He should have known the limitations of his office. He didn't, then he refused to recognize them and showed nothing but arrogance coupled with a complete and utter disrespect for this procedure.

    I'm merely painting a pattern of disregard for procedure and rules. Say anything you want, All the points from the summarization in my previous are constitutional breaches. Every single one of them. There's not "Technically wrong per Constitution" It plainly is wrong. What's the point of having rules when they can be thrown in the wind with every convenience?

  2. #42
    Cookiegod's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Here's my thoughts:

    1) Brew is right about the unconstitutionality etc. etc. etc.
    2) Brew is also right about upholding it actually being a pretty big deal. Either you have it, or you don't.
    3) However, Van Zandt was also right about having been asked about this. He simply did what he was asked to.
    4) Hader's right about the low activity, and it's easy to see how one can let it slide slowly away over time. There's nothing weird about it. A half-dead site doesn't warrant half the work a living one does.
    But then, much like the public health care systems of most countries that have been underfunded for years, you lose the safeguards that were in place when something unexpected happens. Like a pandemic.
    So Hader's handling of it all is also quite understandable and realistic, but not exactly ideal or correct.

    Which brings me to the following proposal:
    • Let's all try and reaffirm that the constitution is a big deal. It might need some changes (I don't know, but probably), but it doesn't have them yet. Even when it can seem like a hazzle and even when there's so little activity it doesn't seem to matter, the fact ist that this lack of discipline can only hurt the forum and cause it to slide down further.
    • But, let's also appreciate that VZ did what he was asked by someone else and not as a personal power grab or something. So if he agrees to not do this again and stick to the constitution then we should be cool?
    • We also don't have that many people left that are willing and able to take all those positions and tend to them. Revitalising the site isn't going to happen through this drama. Oh well, maybe it did, but it won't last that way.
    • I'll profess complete ignorance as to what a consul, censor, praefect, etc. does. But maybe the leadership should create make all of this more accessible and draw people in to help.
      Part of it is kinda easy to do: Commodus is already someone pretending to be cynical and not care, and you gave him a citizenship. Which is a good thing and well done, since he, as can be seen in this discussion, actually does care. So do mishkin and Morticia, even though they too (like Commodus previously) say they don't want citizenship. Since they posted thoughtfully and added as much to this discussion as anyone else, give them citizenship. @Athelchan/@Akar what the heck are you waiting for?! do your job!
    • Then maybe do a refresh of institutions. Won't solve the technical decay, but apparently we have an institutional as well. Do some reforms. Make it sleek, make it simple. Instead of adding and adding and adding things on top of each other, until you have a mess one needs a specialised law degree to understand.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; March 29, 2020 at 03:56 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Mhaedros hit the nail on the head. While the initial violation of the constitution might not necessarily rise to the level of a VonC, the subsequent reaction to the VonC and to people questioning his actions was flippant and unbecoming.

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  4. #44
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    So, I'll make this my definitive stance on the issue.

    The constitution was violated, and in my belief, from a combination of misunderstanding and lack of care. The issue was distinctly caused above Van Zandt's head, and he is mainly guilty of complacency in following along with what the Consul wanted in the absense of the people who were truly supposed to be handling the matter, in addition to subsequent handling I'd boil down to inexperience and/or being hasty with the process that he shouldn't have needed to get into anyways. A VonC, ie, removal of office, is to me a disproportionate response to what could be approached and settled with calling out the issue and mutually rebuking both the Consul that instigated the problem and the Praefect who went along with something that was incorrectly handled. Neither individual, from what I can tell, acted with any malice. It was incorrect, but my damnable sense of mercy would say that's just not enough to straight up axe him.

    However, while I don't feel right condemning on these grounds, the 'defendant' has done an incredibly poor job for their own case here. He depends on me, Hader, others to give him any level of balance when he himself can't be arsed to take a threat to his position that has a credible constitutional basis seriously. He's not indicated that the matter could have been so much as handled better, and given the circumstances I do see why he did what he did that lead to this thread being posted (pausing the election so the person who was supposed to handle it can proceed over it). It wasn't procedure, but it was meant well, and yet there's an abysmally poor effort to indicate this. I expect nothing, but I'd expect Hader in particular would be due a bit of appreciation, as he certainly hasn't thrown VZ under the bus, simply added clarity to the issue. Van Zandt's handling in a crisis with any sort of criticism strikes me as faulty when paired with faulty decision making across the board that I've seen him in the Curia, even if his record for his term so far is ultimately decent. I do not forget that he instigated a VonC of his own against someone who was also doing their best, something I kept track of when it happened, that was on similarly disproportionate grounds (in fact, I'd even say petty) when combined with less constitutional validity. He certainly showed no mercy or good faith then that would have entitled him to his defense now. In this I would say my confidence is rather low, and if this VonC highlighted a bit more of that history or Mishkin polished up an alternative take that highlights the lapses, I'd be moved to support.

    As it stands, I feel it is unfair to condemn on the VonC's current grounds, yet dirty to declare someone who has a callous disregard on multiple levels undeserving of censure - as well as my increased lack of faith in the individual's situation handling as compared to anyone else I can think of at the moment when presented the same circumstances. So, I'm going to call an abstain for now leaning support and advise people vote their minds based on what they make of the circumstances that are a bit light to straight up fire VZ for following with, yet still feature VZ acting irresponsibly for his role and taking zero responsibility or care in the matter.

    I think Cookiegod raises a lot of credible points. While the negatives are heavy to me, I'd ultimately prefer the matter to simply move on and for us to focus on ensuring this isn't repeated again and censors are appointed that ensure the process goes smoothly. While I think there is nothing wrong with the procedure that lead us to this point - again, proper censor management would have avoided the question, and the flawed handling resulted in the line of events that sparked this thread - I do think the curia has both institutional and ideological reflection that's necessary. I understand why this thread was posted, yet I also understand beyond the ideology that we really just needed a fire to kick into. Obviously I derive some enjoyment from it. Yet it would serve us better to move that energy towards things like Cope's effort to use the curia as a proposition body that tries to be proactive for the broader site rather than honing in on itself and further polarizing a base that is highly skeptical about the Curia as it is.

    With that in mind, such reflection should probably happen before a recruitment drive. Even now I'm pretty meh on my own citizenship; I've yet to apply it real meaning beyond an opportunity towards roles I have no means of getting right now anyways. Others (citizen and not) are no doubt disillusioned and have rolled their eyes with the much ado they find this thread represents. Both of the non-citizens are stronger than I am in the sense that onee stablishes a brand of active anti-curial sentiment and the other takes my apathy towards citizenship to another degree; I don't think either would be easily moved until the Curia stands for something more agreeable and more, well, visible than its threads regarding constitutional rigidity.

    I get what Brew is driving at here and per above, I'm pretty damn close to supporting, but at the same time, while this exercise has its fun, I think it's energy best spent elsewhere.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    I think that everyone here, on both sides of the arguments, is completely and entirely correct.




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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Cookie wrote a little emotionally, but generally correctly. I'm of the same opinion. Caligula is also right. The result of this is stomping on the spot. We need to go further if we want to develop something here.

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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Oppose. Within the spirit (if not the letter) of the Constitution, I don't see a problem with the Primus Praefectus taking over administrative duties in the absence of both the Curator and any Censors - he is still an elected Curial official after all and someone is going to have to do it. I'm not sure it was entirely - or, to be honest, at all - necessary in this instance, and VZ could perhaps have conducted himself with a little more decorum, but, simply put, no harm no foul. Yes, ideally one would wait the requisite amount of time as stipulated in the Constitution, and then consult with the Curial body before taking action, but Hader seems to have greenlit this in advance, even if some wires appear to have gotten crossed. So an election thread went up a little early and was subsequently closed; it's hardly a coup d'etat. If the argument is that VZ has since acted in a manner unbecoming of his office or his citizenship, then perhaps a referral would be the more appropriate course of action, as - for whatever reason - one can't actually be VonC'ed for that, as it is neither dereliction of duty, nor abuse of authority.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Opposed. This was the result of miscommunication.
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    I'm saddened to see that the rules no longer have to be adhered according the majority of people posting here. Furthermore devaluating this institution, it's offices and my citizenship.

    Considering there is support I will be requesting this goes to vote. Simply because it's the only just thing. Miscommunication, that can happen but four different counts of constitutional breaches, failing to see your mistakes, ridiculing people that point you to your mistake via a normal way(not going strait to vonc) and then when a VonC was chosen demonstrating a complete and utter lack of respect for the office you have.. This place has become nothing but a joke, filled with people who no longer wish to act. Why have rules when you throw them into the wind every given opportunity?

    @Hader, I am hereby publicly notifying you of my intend to resign from my position as a magistrate. When I am sure my duties on a current case are not/no longer needed I will leave the group.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    The rules still apply however the spirit of the rules is far more important than the actual letter, because otherwise we will fall in the same legalistic as before. As far as I am concerned the constitution is a guideline to help create a fair playing field for everybody, nothing more.
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  11. #51
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    Hader, you are not the one facing the VonC here. There's no need to pull it towards yourself. I have nothing but respect for going on military assignments. Especially in a pandemic.
    Anyway, you are not responsible for the breach of constitution protocol. You can wrap it in any kind of paper you want. You asked something Unconstitutional, Van Zandt did multiple Unconstitutional things. He should have known the limitations of his office. He didn't, then he refused to recognize them and showed nothing but arrogance coupled with a complete and utter disrespect for this procedure.

    I'm merely painting a pattern of disregard for procedure and rules. Say anything you want, All the points from the summarization in my previous are constitutional breaches. Every single one of them. There's not "Technically wrong per Constitution" It plainly is wrong. What's the point of having rules when they can be thrown in the wind with every convenience?
    Yes, but someone is facing it due in part to my actions, I would be remiss to not make my mistakes clear first and foremost, in addition to just clarifying things overall.

    As such I believe I have cleared up enough to show it was not out of a place of malice that any constitutional breach occurred. This is hardly a clear cut case of rule being completely thrown into the wind just because we can; an unexpected situation arose for myself, in the time I had to prepare for that I made a call/request, which wasn't the most right per the constitution, but hopefully in the spirit of still doing right, and VZ took that and did was asked and probably seemed right.



    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    I'm saddened to see that the rules no longer have to be adhered according the majority of people posting here. Furthermore devaluating this institution, it's offices and my citizenship.

    Considering there is support I will be requesting this goes to vote. Simply because it's the only just thing. Miscommunication, that can happen but four different counts of constitutional breaches, failing to see your mistakes, ridiculing people that point you to your mistake via a normal way(not going strait to vonc) and then when a VonC was chosen demonstrating a complete and utter lack of respect for the office you have.. This place has become nothing but a joke, filled with people who no longer wish to act. Why have rules when you throw them into the wind every given opportunity?

    @Hader, I am hereby publicly notifying you of my intend to resign from my position as a magistrate. When I am sure my duties on a current case are not/no longer needed I will leave the group.
    I have done as much in depth explaining as I think I can for this issue,
    It seems a case of you wanting the letter of the law adhered to in its entirety, which is not something I would say is wrong of you. I wouldn't disagree that we should adhere to the constitution as best we can, but this is also hardly the first time that accidents have happened, or that it has been strayed from to some small degree. Hell, COVID could have easily put me in a hospital the other week and I would indeed be absent and most of what VZ did would be in the right.

    I have noted my mistakes, and I'm sure VZ his own, and I'd dare to say that objectively speaking, after clarifying everything this wasn't something as big as the weight of a VonC may carry with it to suggest. Had something like this happened in the middle of my term, I would surely have to take some more corrective action on my end, however I just so happen to be near the end of my term, which maybe waters things down a bit too.

    Regardless, it seems like this VonC was started in somewhat equal part due to VZ actions being unconstitutional, and otherwise his demeanor regarding it. Hopefully the former has been clarified enough to lessen the initial severity of the situation everyone was aware of. If you wish the VonC to go off of the latter more so, then perhaps refocus on that and see if VZ will talk more about that as well, as it seems to be the focus is still more on the unconstitutional acts more so than the rest.

    ----

    I hope your resignation of Magistrate is not due to all this either, since it seems that way now. If anything that office has probably stood as the most detached, yet longest serving and important citizenry role to fill. Don't think of myself as a stranger to being disillusioned with the Curia or the value of my own citizenship, however despite that over many years I never resigned mine in the end. Hell, we even got Lifthrasir back to our ranks, and look at that guy! - he's French.

    Plenty of Curial history can make you go "WTF?" but if this is what sets you over the edge, then color me surprised. Whatever the case, contact me when/if you officially are done with whatever cases and resign.

    ----
    I will move it to vote however since requested.
    Last edited by Hader; March 30, 2020 at 10:55 AM.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    This is hardly a clear cut case of rule being completely thrown into the wind just because we can; an unexpected situation arose for myself, in the time I had to prepare for that I made a call/request, which wasn't the most right per the constitution, but hopefully in the spirit of still doing right, and VZ took that and did was asked and probably seemed right.
    This is where I disagree. If he had kept it with one violation, sure I'd agree with you but he continued to do more.. So in my eyes it is clear cut and rules are being thrown overboard.


    I have done as much in depth explaining as I think I can for this issue,
    It seems a case of you wanting the letter of the law adhered to in its entirety, which is not something I would say is wrong of you. I wouldn't disagree that we should adhere to the constitution as best we can, but this is also hardly the first time that accidents have happened, or that it has been strayed from to some small degree. Hell, COVID could have easily put me in a hospital the other week and I would indeed be absent and most of what VZ did would be in the right.
    I am happy that you and others at least support that I'm not "wrong". Fact remains that COVID didnt hospitalize you and you hadn't been online the mandatory time for someone to intervene.

    I have noted my mistakes, and I'm sure VZ his own, and I'd dare to say that objectively speaking, after clarifying everything this wasn't something as big as the weight of a VonC may carry with it to suggest. Had something like this happened in the middle of my term, I would surely have to take some more corrective action on my end, however I just so happen to be near the end of my term, which maybe waters things down a bit too.
    I'm sure VZ did not in fact. Because he denied doing so when I and others pointed him to his mistake. Refused to take ownership and decided to offer such a ridiculous defense/reply. After all the post he still refuses to say he was wrong.

    Regardless, it seems like this VonC was started in somewhat equal part due to VZ actions being unconstitutional, and otherwise his demeanor regarding it. Hopefully the former has been clarified enough to lessen the initial severity of the situation everyone was aware of. If you wish the VonC to go off of the latter more so, then perhaps refocus on that and see if VZ will talk more about that as well, as it seems to be the focus is still more on the unconstitutional acts more so than the rest.
    He had ample opportunity and refuses to take any ownership of the issue by declaring he was at fault. I tried being civil with him and all he did was laugh and deny.

    ----

    I hope your resignation of Magistrate is not due to all this either, since it seems that way now. If anything that office has probably stood as the most detached, yet longest serving and important citizenry role to fill. Don't think of myself as a stranger to being disillusioned with the Curia or the value of my own citizenship, however despite that over many years I never resigned mine in the end. Hell, we even got Lifthrasir back to our ranks, and look at that guy! - he's French.

    Plenty of Curial history can make you go "WTF?" but if this is what sets you over the edge, then color me surprised. Whatever the case, contact me when/if you officially are done with whatever cases and resign.

    ----
    I will move it to vote however since requested.
    It certainly has to do with it. Detached as it may be, the constitution guarantees the office, the same constitution which is desecrated with throwing out the rules or using them only when it suits people.
    Last edited by Legio_Italica; March 30, 2020 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Disruptive bits removed

  13. #53
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    (...) Hell, we even got Lifthrasir back to our ranks, (...)
    I blame Flinn and General Brewster for this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    (...) and look at that guy! - he's French(...)
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  14. #54
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Do you realize all the problems that you would have saved if there were some communication between the curia staff and the rest of the citizens (i.e: "hey guys, your consul here, I have this problem what do you think if I do this?") and you had chosen a minimally dialoguing person for the primus praefectus position?
    Last edited by mishkin; March 30, 2020 at 02:24 PM.
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    The Primus Praefectus is elected from the Curia and applying himself as candidate.

    So the Curia should blame itself instead of pointing with fingers on others.

    The Electorate get, what it had voted for.
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  16. #56
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    So the Curia should blame itself instead of pointing with fingers on others.
    Who are they pointing to?
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  17. #57
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    You can't blame the consul for the primus praefecti, as he is voted by curia, not appointed by consul. You get, what you have voted for.
    Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. (Morticia Addams)


  18. #58
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    I havent blamed the consul for choosing the PP
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Do you realize all the problems that you would have saved if there were some communication between the curia staff and the rest of the citizens (i.e: "hey guys, your consul here, I have this problem what do you think if I do this?") and you had chosen a minimally dialoguing person for the primus praefectus position?
    You have not?
    Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. (Morticia Addams)


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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [VonC] [Primus Preafectus] Van Zandt

    why do you think i am talking about the consul and not about the citizens who voted?

    Edit: I have the feeling you just dont want to answer my first question.
    Last edited by mishkin; March 30, 2020 at 03:22 PM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

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