Theistic evolution makes no sense

[Prodromos]

yet you refuse to see it, why?

Because if Christianity turned out to be true, people would have to change, and people don't want to change.

[wanderwegger]

Which Christian sect are you referring to as true?

[basics]

Which Christian sect are you referring to as true?

wanderwegger,

Anyone born again of the Spirit of God regardless of denomination are true Christians.

[wanderwegger]

So the papists?

[Akar]

So literally no one anymore.

[Prodromos]

wanderwegger,

Anyone born again of the Spirit of God regardless of denomination are true Christians.

That is correct.

THE TRUE CHURCH
By Bishop J. C. Ryle
(1816-1900) Liverpool, England

I want you to belong to the one true Church: to the Church outside of which there is no salvation. I do not ask where you go on a Sunday; I only ask, "Do you belong to the one true Church?" Where is this one true Church? What is this one true Church like? What are the marks by which this one true Church may be known? You may well ask such questions. Give me your attention, and I will provide you with some answers.

1. The one true Church IS COMPOSED OF ALL BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS. It is made up of all God's elect — of all converted men and women — of all true Christians. In whomsoever we can discern the election of God the Father, the sprinkling of the blood of God the Son, the sanctifying work of God the Spirit, in that person we see a member of Christ's true Church.

2. It is a Church OF WHICH ALL THE MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME MARKS. They are all born again of the Spirit; they all possess "repentance towards God, faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ," and holiness of life and conversation. They all hate sin, and they all love Christ. (They worship differently, and after various fashions; some worship with a form of prayer, and some with none; some worship kneeling, and some standing; but they all worship with one heart.) They are all led by one Spirit; they all build upon one foundation; they all draw their religion from one single book — that is the Bible. They are all joined to one great center — that is Jesus Christ. They all even now can say with one heart, "Hallelujah;" and they can all respond with one heart and voice, Amen and Amen.

3. It is a Church WHICH IS DEPENDENT UPON NO MINISTERS UPON EARTH, however much it values those who preach the gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon Church-membership, or baptism, or the Lord's Supper — although they highly value these things when they are to be had. But it has only one Great Head — one Shepherd, one chief Bishop — and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, By His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it — neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism — the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper;but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be ex-communicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church. It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die.

6. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE SANCTITY. Its members are all holy. They are not merely holy by profession, holy in name, and holy in the judgment of charity; they are all holy in act, and deed, and reality, and life, and truth. They are all more or less conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. No unholy man belongs to this Church.

7. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY CATHOLIC. It is not the Church of any one nation or people; its members are to be found in every part of the world where the gospel is received and believed. It is not confined within the limits of any one country, or pent up within the pale of any particular forms of outward government. In it there is no difference between Jew and Greek, black man and white, Episcopalian and Presbyterian - but faith in Christ is all. Its members will be gathered from north, and south, and east, and west, and will be of every name and tongue — but all one in Jesus Christ.

13. Reader, THIS IS THE TRUE CHURCH TO WHICH A MAN MUST BELONG, IF HE WOULD BE SAVED. Till you belong to this, you are nothing better than a lost soul. You may have the form, the husk, the skin, and the shell of religion, but you have not got the substance and the life. Yes, you may have countless outward privileges; you may enjoy great light, and knowledge — but if you do not belong to the Body of Christ, your light and knowledge and privileges will not save your soul. Alas, for the ignorance that prevails on this point! Men fancy if they join this church or that church, and become communicants, and go through certain forms, that all must be right in their souls. It is an utter delusion, it is a gross mistake. All were not Israel who were called Israel, and all are not members of Christ's Body who profess themselves Christian. TAKE NOTICE; you may be a staunch Episcopalian, or Presbyterian, or Independent, or Baptist, or Wesleyan, or Plymouth Brother — and yet not belong to the true Church. And if you do not, it will be better at last if you had never been born.

[basics]

So literally no one anymore.

Jesus said, " a man must be born again by the Spirit of God if he is to enter heaven." The person can be taken from out of any religion or belief by God, why? Because God being Sovereign has the right to choose by grace and grace alone who are saved. That is what is written.

[wanderwegger]

So do the Mormons count?

[Akar]

No, only the sects that Basics personally believes in get to go to heaven.

Do dead babies get to go to heaven?

[wanderwegger]

No, only the sects that Basics personally believes in get to go to heaven.

Do dead babies get to go to heaven?

Careful, a baby joke can get you in real trouble. I don't think basics would disagree with your statement. Which means the disciples aren't in Heaven because no way they believed what he does, a Christianity evolved over thousands of years influenced by so much more than theology. No Augustine. No Jerome. None of the Saints. Francis of Assisi is probably the most on brand Christian in history and for a time he was almost deemed a heretic, and to a protestant he was. As was Peter and Paul, John, Ringo and the rest.

[Akar]

It's not a joke, it's a serious question that none of the christians on this forum will ever answer.

Ringo

Saint Ringo of Liverpool is my patron saint.

[basics]

Only the elect of God get into heaven, that is them whose names are written in the book of life. So, do babies get into heaven? As babies no, but when they are able to repent of their sin and be born again then yes eventually if they are of God's elect. We have Biblical examples of babies who were aware of God, in one case the Baptist who jumped in his mother's womb when Mary entered into her house. The other I can think of was David who at a later stage demonstrated his faith in God. But, the most important of all was baby Jesus Who came into the world as the " Door " to heaven. There is not a moment in anyone's life that God does not know of or has not determined. You're on these threads for His purpose just as many others before you were and I think of Pharaoh in this instance.

[Akar]

So a baby who dies in a car accident on the way home from the hospital doesn't get into heaven?

Why do you think that's just?

We have Biblical examples of babies who were aware of God,

If you ever find yourself tempted to say "there are biblical examples of X" save yourself and everyone else the trouble and cite the verse then and there, it saves us the time of having to ask you for them (and be ignored, usually). So, which verse is this found in?

[basics]

Akar,

The curse of sin belongs to us all so in Jesus' own words being conceived in sin makes us sinners from the beginning of our lives. No one is innocent.

[Akar]

Why do you think it's okay for a baby to go to hell?

I don't want to hear what jesus says or what god thinks, I want to know what YOU think. In your own words.

[conon394]

Why do you think it's okay for a baby to go to hell?

I don't want to hear what jesus says or what god thinks, I want to know what YOU think. In your own words.

So if you are conceived in sin supposedly because of God's desire to impose blood attainder for a crime you never committed why did he not provide an option of redemption immediately?

[basics]

Akar,

You want me to disagree with God? My first wife carried a dead baby full term which nearly killed her so how do you think I felt then? We lost a child but I never blamed God if anything I blamed myself because there was nothing I could do to change anything. My heart bleeds whenever I hear of someone dying and at my age I have seen a lot of death and pain and sorrow so what else would you expect? It's God's business who goes where and when not mine.

The alternative is that babies being products of chance at death are just a splodge of nothingness which is just as sad.

[Akar]

So you're just going to ignore what I asked then, fair enough.

[Iskar]

Do dead babies get to go to heaven?

It's not a joke, it's a serious question that none of the christians on this forum will ever answer.

It may turn out less mangificent than you had hoped, given that I strongly disagree with basics' neo-Calvinist convictions of predestination as a Catholic, but here is an answer from someone considering themselves a Christian:

The self-sacrifice on the cross erased that very original sin basics speaks about for everyone. It is not predetermined that only a small number will be saved. The free will granted to humans furnishes everyone with the capacity to not sin or to repent once they have sinned.
Humans are fallible and imperfect beings, but the divine grace and mercy is in every aspect greater than the human capacity to sin. (cf. the Augsburg Join Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, wherein the Catholic and Lutheran churches agreed that salvation is based on divine grace alone and that is sufficient.)
Hell is not an eternal torment but the self-chosen aversion from God, which in a Christian point of view is bad enough as it is for (self inflicted) punishment. This state may last arbitrarily long (given free will), but not eternally, because ultimately divine grace overcomes human obstinacy. (If you want to discuss the difference between arbitrarily long and eternal, i.e. mathematically speaking the difference between arbitrarily large numbers and infinity, we should do so separately in the Athenaeum.)

In short, dead babies go to heaven.

Amen, urbi et orbi, deus lo vult, or whatever you would be expecting Catholics to say.

[Prodromos]

Well, you don't need to affirm universal salvation or appeal to extrabiblical tradition to believe in infant salvation. Even just going off of Scripture alone, you can make a strong case that all babies (and mentally handicapped adults) go to heaven.