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Thread: Theistic evolution makes no sense

  1. #161
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    The text always requires exegesis to sort the human ballast from the divine truth. That's what the historical-critical method does.

    Furthermore, Sola Scriptura is the only part of Luther's Solae that I do not agree with and neither does the church. Scripture is the foundation but the Spirit is ever at work in the Church, allowing it to approach God ever more closely, and hence Tradition is just as important as Scripture, representing the work of the Spirit in the Church since the canonisation of Scripture.
    Last edited by Iskar; August 20, 2020 at 07:26 PM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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  2. #162

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The text always requires exegesis to sort the human ballast from the divine truth.
    The text is inerrant; it is all the divine truth. That's according to your own church. From Vatican II:

    CHAPTER III
    SACRED SCRIPTURE, ITS INSPIRATION AND DIVINE INTERPRETATION

    11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

    Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
    That's what the historical-critical method does.
    The historical-critical method is concerned with the material facts of ancient texts. It persistently contradicts the Vatican's line on biblical inerrancy and isn't related to your claims about redemption.

    Furthermore, Sola Scriptura is the only part of Luther's Solae that I do not agree with and neither does the church. Scripture is the foundation but the Spirit is ever at work in the Church, allowing it to approach God ever more closely, and hence Tradition is just as important as Scripture, representing the work of the Spirit in the Church since the canonisation of Scripture.
    The Roman church serves itself by falsely claiming its traditions are equal to the word of God. It has given itself the licence to make ontological proclamations sans any direct Scriptural justification. "We must burn away the slag" of clerical and liberal philosophizing, informed as it, not by the Word, but by "personal bias" and institutional interests.
    Last edited by Cope; August 20, 2020 at 09:20 PM.



  3. #163
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    alhoon,

    God has already decided who will enter His Kingdom as their names are in the book of life compiled before the foundation of the worlds. Nobody gets there by works. Unless sin is removed before death there is no other way into the Kingdom. The Law stipulates that unless a person has kept every aspect of it he or she remains condemned. God's mercy came by Jesus Christ Who came into the world as a man for the sole purpose of being the Sacrifice for sin applied only to them that God the Father gave to Jesus for saving. These are called the elect of God chosen by Grace. Why Grace? Grace because merit doesn't disconnect one sinner from another for all are under sin and all stand condemned. The Law demanded blood and so it was that Jesus Christ being sinless could provide that blood to satisfy both the Father and His Law.

    When Jesus died He went down into the pit for what reason? It certainly wasn't to teach or preach. It was to show all the unbelievers there that He had the power over death, that He was Him Who was prophesied of but they had spurned Him. Their fate was sealed and so if they hadn't realised why they now knew why. Now concerning baptism this has to be placed in its proper context. Water baptism is no more than a sign that believers make to announce their new life in Christ. John's baptisms were just that, a sign that they were prepared for Messias' coming. The real baptism is a working into the new creation in Christ securing their redemption by the Holy Ghost and leading them into all truth as they head for what Paul calls the finishing line of our race. Those that God has predetermined will hear the Gospel for as Jesus said, " All that the Father hast given Me I have lost not one." The very word all separates all from others in this context just as the wide and narrow paths do.

    It surely is written that, " God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." One has to ask therefore what world was it He loved to do that? God hated Esau. He hates sin so how does He love a sinfilled world? May I suggest that the world He loves is the world before the fall pictured by the heavenly type that was the garden of Eden, why? Because this fallen creation is to be replaced by a place that we know God loves and it's called the New Heaven and Earth. A place devoid of sin in any aspect into which only the elect will go. Surely pictured by the garden. I mean if the garden was open to all and sundry why was it shut off at the fall of man to man? The only thing about Scripture that one can make an assumption about is that a person must be born again of the Spirit of God to enter heaven and that by the regenerating blood of Jesus Christ unto and upon all them that the Lord God shall call as Peter points out. It's all of God.

  4. #164
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope;15945821The Roman church serves itself by falsely claiming its traditions are equal to the word of God. It has given itself the licence to make ontological proclamations [I
    sans[/I] any direct Scriptural justification. "We must burn away the slag" of clerical and liberal philosophizing, informed as it, not by the Word, but by "personal bias" and institutional interests.
    How can 'The Word' mean anything to someone without preconceptions, in other words to an infant? You may not put much faith in the traditions of the Roman church, but you have traditions of your own. At a fundamental level, how is that different. Are you not bound to just replace one form of slag with another?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  5. #165
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    @Cope:

    Pope Benedict XVI (a much greater theologian than his successor by the way) seems to disagree with your interpretation of Vatican II:
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict XVI in "Light of the World"
    The application of the historical method to the Bible as a historical text was a path that had to be taken. If we believe that Christ is real history, and not myth, then the testimony concerning him has to be historically accessible as well. In this sense, the historical method has also given us many gifts. It has brought us back closer to the text and its originality, it has shown us more precisely how it grew, and much more besides. The historical-critical method will always remain one dimension of interpretation. Vatican II made this clear. On the one hand, it presents the essential elements of the historical method as a necessary part of access to the Bible. At the same time, though, it adds that the Bible has to be read in the same Spirit in which it was written. It has to be read in its wholeness, in its unity. And that can be done only when we approach it as a book of the People of God progressively advancing toward Christ. What is needed is not simply a break with the historical method, but a self-critique of the historical method; a self-critique of historical reason that takes cognizance of its limits and recognizes the compatibility of a type of knowledge that derives from faith; in short, we need a synthesis between an exegesis that operates with historical reason and an exegesis that is guided by faith. We have to bring the two things into a proper relationship to each other. That is also a requirement of the basic relationship between faith and reason.
    Even if you cling to the notion that all of Scripture is exactly what God wanted to have put down in writing (which would be in contradiction to the free will of the writers - a free will the Church has always asserted in contrast to certain Protestant congregations), then that still does not mean he wanted us to take everything there literally. It still requires exegesis.
    Last edited by Iskar; August 21, 2020 at 12:12 PM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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  6. #166

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    @Cope: Pope Benedict XVI (a much greater theologian than his successor by the way) seems to disagree with your interpretation of Vatican II:
    Benedict XVI commenting on the utility of the historical-critical method does not in any sense imply that the church has abandoned the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. If a belief is materially disproved by way of critical analysis, it is simply assumed that the scriptural interpretation upon which said belief was founded was incorrect.

    Even if you cling to the notion that all of Scripture is exactly what God wanted to have put down in writing (which would be in contradiction to the free will of the writers - a free will the Church has always asserted in contrast to certain Protestant congregations), then that still does not mean he wanted us to take everything there literally. It still requires exegesis.
    I'm not arguing against the practice of literary analysis, scriptural reinterpretation or symbolic readings; I'm arguing against philosophies which claim a basis in Christian reasoning but are unsubstantiated by Scripture. The discussion about alleged Biblical fallibility and the value of critical analysis are entirely tangential. Even if I accepted everything you've said on those subjects, you would still be no closer to validating your theory about universal redemption.
    Last edited by Cope; August 21, 2020 at 05:42 PM.



  7. #167
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Well, then explain to me how a finite human capacity to sin squared with infinite divine love and mercy could result in anything less than universal redemption?
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
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  8. #168

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    After you've explained how infinite divine love and mercy could result in a finite human capacity to sin.
    Last edited by Cope; August 21, 2020 at 06:07 PM.



  9. #169
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    You mean as in why there is a capicity to sin to begin with? (The converse, that it is finite, is quite a trivial corollary of humans being finite beings.)

    The capacity to sin is a necessary consequence of free will. Without it, faith and good deeds would be meaningless, as there would be no underlying moral choice.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  10. #170

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    You mean as in why there is a capicity to sin to begin with? (The converse, that it is finite, is quite a trivial corollary of humans being finite beings.)

    The capacity to sin is a necessary consequence of free will. Without it, faith and good deeds would be meaningless, as there would be no underlying moral choice.
    It therefore follows that faith and good deeds would also be meaningless if God redeemed the faithless and the wicked. God's limitless mercy is juxtaposed with His righteous judgements. Those who cannot repent will be separated from heaven and the elect for all time, as was Lucifer. This is what Scripture tells us. All of your posts are pointing to the fact that you prefer the tenets of secular humanism to God's justice (hence why you denounce Scripture as fallible when it contradicts your philosophy).

    In this spiritual realm there is no neutrality. Jesus said: “He who is not with Me is against Me.” There are only two possible attitudes: submission to God, or opposition to God. Human beings who, through repentance, submit themselves to God, are spared from the lake of fire. All others, who do not thus submit, are in opposition to God. They necessarily associate themselves with the devil and his angels. Because of this association, they are condemned to the same destination—the lake of fire. For all who once enter this lake of fire—whether angels or men—there is no way back. It is “forever and ever.”

    Herein lies the subtle danger of this doctrine of “reconciliation” for those who profess to be Christians. In the Scriptures, God clearly states two things. First, God is absolutely just and impartial.Second, God has condemned the devil and his angels to the punishment of everlasting fire. Any person who questions the second of these two statements automatically questions the first also.If you deny that the devil is condemned to everlasting fire, you automatically repudiate both the truth and the justice of God. By this subtle deception, Satan has tricked you into taking sides with him against God. You cannot at the same time be the advocate of Satan and the friend of God.Without realizing it, you are now ranged alongside the enemies of God. If you persist in this attitude, God’s justice demands that He deal with you as with the devil. You will one day hear those fearsome words: “Depart from Me . . . into the everlasting fire.”

    The picture presented in Scripture of God’s nature and dealings with man is like a coin. It has two opposite sides, which together make up the complete coin. These two sides are clearly presented by Paul: “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God.” Here are the two sides: goodness and severity. On the one hand, mercy and grace; on the other hand, wrath and judgment.To efface one side of a coin renders it incomplete and valueless. So it is with the picture of God presented in the Bible. To speak always of goodness, but never of severity—to speak always of mercy and grace, but never of wrath and judgment—this is to efface one side of the coin, and to render the Bible’s picture of God incomplete and valueless. Those who speak like this are unfaithful to God, and unfair to men. In so doing, they misrepresent God and mislead men.
    Last edited by Cope; August 21, 2020 at 08:35 PM.



  11. #171
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    You mean as in why there is a capicity to sin to begin with? (The converse, that it is finite, is quite a trivial corollary of humans being finite beings.)
    The capacity to sin is a necessary consequence of free will. Without it, faith and good deeds would be meaningless, as there would be no underlying moral choice.
    Iskar,

    Man has a will there is no debating there but look to the Word and see what It says. In the garden did Adam and Eve have free will? No they didn't, why? Because God gave them a rule to follow with a direct threat to how their existence would end up if they broke it. They did break it and what followed? They were handed over to sin to become dead in that sin so where was the free-will there? From that point on only God had the power to break their sin but under certain conditions as no-one else was capable of doing it. The capacity to sin is because man can't do anything else, the power of sin being too great. His will isn't free and that's why regeneration is so important to understand because only God can do that. As He alone is Sovereign only He in His Three Persons can and do make it possible. His old cry, " Come out from among them My people," is a guide that not all are saved nor can be.

  12. #172

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    That part only states that the humble one went straight to paradise. It does not say that the other one went to eternal torment without any possibility of repentance and redemption.
    The Church is pretty clear about what happens to unrepentant sinners:
    Quote Originally Posted by Catholic Catechism
    1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
    1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

    1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
    1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
    Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2O.HTM
    But for those who subscribe to the final authority of scripture, what does the Bible say about hell?

    What is Hell?

    There are numerous references to “hell” in the Bible, centered on the following words:

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/sear...V#s=s_lexiconc

    ‎שְׁאוֹל, Sheol

    This is the Hebrew word translated as “hell” or “grave,” used throughout the Old Testament. It is literal in the sense that both “good” and “bad” people are referenced in this context; i.e. it is not a plane of punishment a priori, but a reference to the finality of death and separation from God. Examples:

    The first recorded use of the word is in the context of Jacob discovering that his son Joseph had been sold into slavery by his own brothers because they considered it more profitable than killing him. Here Jacob, as a devastated father, proclaims he will follow his son to the grave for grief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 37
    And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.

    35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (שְׁאוֹל) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

    36 And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, and captain of the guard.
    ‎ שְׁאוֹל is first used in the context of divine judgement in the book of Numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers 16
    And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
    29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.
    30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit (שְׁאוֹל); then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.
    31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
    32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
    33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit (שְׁאוֹל), and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
    34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
    And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
    In Deuteronomy, God’s wrath is said to burn “from the lowest hell (שְׁאוֹל)” in response to wickedness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 32
    Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
    19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
    21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
    22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (שְׁאוֹל), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
    24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
    ‎ שְׁאוֹל is first used in the context of salvation through God in Psalms
    Quote Originally Posted by Psalm 30
    I will extol thee, O Lord; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me.
    2 O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
    3 O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave (שְׁאוֹל) thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
    A note on the word “soul.”
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The word “soul” in the Bible comes primarily from the Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ and Greek ψυχή. It is used to describe the vital force within all living creatures, first seen in Genesis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 1
    And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
    21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    The use of the Greek ψυχή is also consistent in the New Testament, again referring to the state of being alive. Jesus confirms this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 6
    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
    25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life (ψυχή) what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life (ψυχή) more than meat, and the body than raiment?
    26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
    27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
    28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
    29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
    30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
    31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
    32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
    33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    The Greek terms whence “hell” is derived further affirm the context of hell/the grave.

    γέεννα, from the Hebrew בֶּן־הִנֹּם גֵּיא, Gehenna

    γέεννα is a direct reference to an actual place in the Bible:
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua 15
    This then was the lot of the tribe of the children of Judah by their families; even to the border of Edom the wilderness of Zin southward was the uttermost part of the south coast.

    [....]

    And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom (γέεννα ) westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Kings 23
    And the king sent, and they gathered unto him all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem.
    2 And the king went up into the house of the Lord, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the Lord.
    3 And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

    [....]

    And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
    9 Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the Lord in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
    10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom (γέεννα ), that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Chronicles 28
    Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem: but he did not that which was right in the sight of the Lord, like David his father:
    2 For he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and made also molten images for Baalim.
    3 Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom (γέεννα ), and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel.
    γέεννα is a place of pagan sacrifice; death and physical destruction by fire, unholy, profane, utterly separated from God. This context is important to keep in mind as the word is used in the New Testament, beginning in Matthew, Chapter 5
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 5
    And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
    And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

    [....]

    Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (γέεννα) fire.

    [....]

    And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (γέεννα)
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (γέεννα)
    Here, Jesus references total separation from God in the context of γέεννα, a reference his Jewish audience would well understand. Mark’s interpretation is even more specific:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark 9
    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    What is this place of total separation from God; this place of unquenchable fire? The other keyword used for hell provides additional context.

    ᾅδης, Hades

    Paul writes to the Corinthians:
    Quote Originally Posted by I Corinthians 15
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave (ᾅδης) where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
    Jesus claims victory over hell, the grave, through his second coming. This is consistent with what the Bible says about the fate of hell (ᾅδης) in Revelation:
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation 20
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell (ᾅδης) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    As part of God’s final judgement of mankind, the dead are brought forth from hell, the grave, to be judged, whereupon the wicked and hell itself, the grave, are consumed by fire in the everlasting finality of the second death.

    According to the Bible, hell is the fate of unrepentant sinners Jesus warned about, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna; the final and total separation from God that awaits Satan, his angels and the wicked. It is this hell, grave, from which the wicked are not redeemed, and therefore are destroyed by the fire of divine judgement that is the second death, a death which is eternal and final.

    Much of the traditional Christian concept of an otherworldly plane of individual, amorphous spirits in eternal, fiery torment comes from Dante’s Divine Comedy, and Greco-Roman traditions and beliefs about the afterlife. That said, there is a firm Biblical basis for a hell that is the grave, and for the wicked, that grave is their ultimate fate. Jesus was clear:
    Quote Originally Posted by John 14
    1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
    5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    Jesus is God and he is the only salvation from the fate of death in an eternal grave. Paul affirms this as well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Acts 16
    And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.
    23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:
    24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.
    25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
    26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
    27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
    28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
    29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
    35 And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; August 22, 2020 at 03:33 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #173

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    It seems the RCC at least tolerates universalism, as long as it's a 'hopeful' view rather than one maintained with dogmatic certainty.

    In the twentieth century, the Protestant theologian Karl Barth moved back in Origen’s direction and articulated a more or less universalist position on salvation. He maintained that the cross of Jesus had saved the world and that the church’s task was to announce this joyful truth to everyone. The Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar was a friend of Barth’s and a fellow Swiss, and he presented a somewhat Barthian teaching on this score, though he pulled back from complete universalism. Balthasar argued that, given what God has accomplished in Christ, we may reasonably hope that all people will be saved. The condemnation of apokatastasis compelled him to draw back from saying that we know all will be saved, but his keen sensitivity to the dramatic power of the cross convinced him that we may entertain the lively and realistic hope that all people will eventually be drawn into the divine love.
    Bishop Robert Barron has also expressed a 'hopeful' universalism.

    My own conviction is that Balthasar has this more or less right. Catholic doctrine is that Hell exists, but yet the Church has never claimed to know if any human being is actually in Hell. When the Church says that Hell exists, it means that the definitive rejection of God’s love is a real possibility. “Hell” or “Gehenna” are spatial metaphors for the lonely and sad condition of having definitively refused the offer of the divine life. But is there anyone in this state of being? We don’t know for sure. We are in fact permitted to hope and to pray that all people will finally surrender to the alluring beauty of God’s grace.

    Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside not from the outside. The existence of Hell as a real possibility is a corollary of two more fundamental convictions, namely, that God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.
    From an interview with Archbishop Cormac Murphy O'Connor, head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales:

    Q: And hell?

    A: We're not bound to believe that anybody’s there, let's face it. But certainly in the Scriptures there's a stark confrontation between heaven and hell.

    But when Jesus talks about hell, it's also exhorting people to repent, to turn away. It is in the context not of "you will be damned", but "repent and turn to God". I believe that hell exists and it is really the absence of God.

    ...

    Q: It is sometimes said that there will be a separate heaven for Bavarians because they would not be in a state of eternal happiness if they had to share heaven with the Prussians. Will Catholics and Protestants be together in heaven?

    A: I hope they won't be separate. I think that the divisions manifest here on earth will be reconciled in some mysterious way in heaven. I'm not thinking just of Catholics and Protestants, but people of other faiths and people of no faith. We are all children of God.

    Q: So we shouldn't be surprised if we were to meet in heaven someone who was a Muslim or an atheist on earth?

    A: I hope I will be surprised in heaven... I think I will be.
    Last edited by Prodromos; August 23, 2020 at 12:29 AM.
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