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Thread: Theistic evolution makes no sense

  1. #101
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    So, the question being " does theistic evolution make sense ? " and the answer must be no, it does not,
    If only you had just stopped there we would have been in agreement for once, Basics

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  2. #102
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So, the question being " does theistic evolution make sense ? " and the answer must be no, it does not, why? Because Jesus Christ being the Way, the Truth and the Life which is unchangeable then His body the church cannot evolve from what He laid down. That's the biggest problem that lies within Christianity today in that false preachers and teachers have not stuck to the Gospel something that Paul wrote about to the Galatian church. If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then so should His body, the church be. Times may change but as He said " His word will never change," so too must the church be. It is unfortunate that that is not the case.
    I think this touches on something in christian thinking that I've never been quite able to logically reconcile. To give an example, in the middle ages protestants and catholics persecuted and murdered each other in the name of Christ. If someone were to try that today, this would undoubtably be characterized as a grave sin. So, how can a church handle such a discrepancy? If the church today were to say of the medieval church that they were grievous sinners, then the implication is that no christian today can be safe in following the church's teachings either, because at some point in the future, the church might decide those teachings were wrong. In general one might ask is how the church can be ' right ' today, if it's built on a tradition of wrongness?

    If I am not mistaken, what you suggest is that there should be no 'evolving understanding' or tradition in a church at all, but each of us should at any time refer to the bible directly and make the best judgement we can about how it applies to the world of today, without regard for what other people have, in the past, done in similar circumstances. And yet, even then you cannot fully detach yourself from tradition, even if it is not a church tradition like the Catholics have. No one can come into contact with the bible without preconceptions. Are you sure what you believe is totally not influenced by anyone at all? How about the fact that you decided to pick up the bible and not, e.g. the Koran? Is that not a product of the environment you grew up in? Do you not ever go to bible study groups, hear sermons, or read what other people think on how to interpret the bible in today's world? Because if you do you're not that different from a catholic following church traditions.
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  3. #103
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Muizer,

    To put the first thing to bed let's talk about Rome and what it believes. It doesn't follow the word of God because it believes that works are essential to salvation. It believes in praying to relics and saints which is definitely not Biblical. It believes in a purgatory that does not exist in God's word and it believes that its priesthood speaks for God and only them. The Reformation came about because certain Catholic priests saw from reading the Bible that these things were not true and so when they spoke out they were ostracized or even killed for saying and believing what they did. As history tells these Reformed Christians had to defend themselves against an onslaught not seen before.

    Now regarding tradition, the only tradition that is expected of the church that Jesus Christ is building is to adhere to His words and to follow them as best as possible. This is best explained by Paul when he talks of running a race not against other Christians for there is only one way to be a Christian, but to stay the course against all and every opposition that they will come up against. The biggest threat to the church is therefore false preachers who veer off the written word taking many with them. Therefore what is written has to be our guidance not just on a Sunday but every day of the week. The other important point to make is that prayer is most essential and not just on certain days of the week or bedtime, rather at any time and place for it delights God to hear them.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    You mean Protestants or worse, Evangelicals. Where any men get the hubris to think they can interpret the word of God passes from Jesus through his disciples and Peter into the one holy church is beyond me.

    Faith is accepting Jesus passed the word to his disciples. We need to accept Gods word not reform or even worse try as men to interpret it ourselves.

    Obedience to the Word is what separates true Christians from heretics trying to define the Word for themselves. Yuck
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Muizer,

    To put the first thing to bed let's talk about Rome and what it believes. It doesn't follow the word of God because it believes that works are essential to salvation. It believes in praying to relics and saints which is definitely not Biblical. It believes in a purgatory that does not exist in God's word and it believes that its priesthood speaks for God and only them. The Reformation came about because certain Catholic priests saw from reading the Bible that these things were not true and so when they spoke out they were ostracized or even killed for saying and believing what they did. As history tells these Reformed Christians had to defend themselves against an onslaught not seen before.

    Now regarding tradition, the only tradition that is expected of the church that Jesus Christ is building is to adhere to His words and to follow them as best as possible. This is best explained by Paul when he talks of running a race not against other Christians for there is only one way to be a Christian, but to stay the course against all and every opposition that they will come up against. The biggest threat to the church is therefore false preachers who veer off the written word taking many with them. Therefore what is written has to be our guidance not just on a Sunday but every day of the week. The other important point to make is that prayer is most essential and not just on certain days of the week or bedtime, rather at any time and place for it delights God to hear them.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Why is it that >95% of atheists on this forum have a Catholic understanding of Christianity?
    Last edited by Prodromos; August 09, 2020 at 08:59 AM.
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  6. #106

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Why is it that >95% of atheists on this forum have a Catholic understanding of Christianity?
    You mean like you?



  7. #107

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    No, I mean capital-C Catholic. i.e. Romish
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  8. #108

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    You agree with the Roman church on the catholic (ie. the fundamental) element. You have a catholic understanding of Christianity.



  9. #109

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    If you are into history and or a logical chain of events and not committed to a certain Dogma you personally have bought into Eastern Orthodox or Catholic are the heirs to the historical or the spiritual church. Protestantism is young, nothing like the Christianity of the Early Church and so seeped in what became Capitalism its hard to see it as a Christian Faith to an unbeliever. Not so out there as the Mormons. But certainly a whole lot different than anything Jesus ever could have imagined.

  10. #110
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    You mean Protestants or worse, Evangelicals. Where any men get the hubris to think they can interpret the word of God passes from Jesus through his disciples and Peter into the one holy church is beyond me.
    Faith is accepting Jesus passed the word to his disciples. We need to accept Gods word not reform or even worse try as men to interpret it ourselves.
    Obedience to the Word is what separates true Christians from heretics trying to define the Word for themselves. Yuck
    wanderwegger,

    Try reading the Book to the Hebrews and broaden your mind a little.

    Faith is the result of regeneration not the cause. In fact the faith given to a person born again is the same faith that Jesus Christ has about the resurrection given Him by His Father and to be given to the saints once regenerate. But then how could you possibly understand that?

    Finally, where is that word? Oh dear me, it is in the Bible where the very word of God happens to be. Is it only for Romish priests to decypher, no, quite obviously it is for each person to read and if any are of God's elect to be then those words will come alive, the hardness of the heart removed so that regeneration can take place. All this being by God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. That is what God's word says.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    wanderwegger,
    All this being by God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. That is what God's word says.

    In nomine Patri et fillii et Spiritus Sancti

    Comes from the Roman Catholic Church not the Bible. Why it is in Latin.

    Thanks for succinctly proving everything I have ever said to or about you in a manner beyond my wildest dreams. Sending you a Bible. Think you would enjoy it as a first time reader.

    I believe Divinity laughed and the world was made. Thanks for bringing me closer to it.

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    wanderwegger,

    Since Scripture was written by men who preceded the Roman Catholic church system by many hundreds of years that puts your argument at rest in the dustbin of life. My job is to tell of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God's job is to bring people to Jesus through that Gospel, bring them to repentence, the broken and contrite heart and only then will He convert them. God already knows these persons and so it is not me rather the Gospel that is the trigger for God's saving grace. That is what the Bible teaches and also tells of how He laughs at the likes of you who tries hard to make a mockery of His word. " Heaven and earth may pass away but My word will never pass away."

  13. #113

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    wanderwegger,

    Since Scripture was written by men who preceded the Roman Catholic church system by many hundreds of years that puts your argument at rest in the dustbin of life. My job is to tell of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God's job is to bring people to Jesus through that Gospel, bring them to repentence, the broken and contrite heart and only then will He convert them. God already knows these persons and so it is not me rather the Gospel that is the trigger for God's saving grace. That is what the Bible teaches and also tells of how He laughs at the likes of you who tries hard to make a mockery of His word. " Heaven and earth may pass away but My word will never pass away."
    Source?

    You are quoting Latin, from the Church of Rome, which is the Roman Catholic Church. Not the Bible. Feel free to show me facts that are different. Any time you want lets join the challenge thread and use only passages from any Bible you want on any issue.

    I will wipe the floor with your idiotic, born again mumbo jumbo statements. God can watch.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    You agree with the Roman church on the catholic (ie. the fundamental) element. You have a catholic understanding of Christianity.
    Cope,

    Sorry to say but the RC system didn't come into play for some centuries later, long after the Gospel was being preached around the globe. So, Rome might agree on some principles of Scripture but then goes off on a tangent that is not Scriptural at all. Peter was never in Rome and even if he was he would have found that he wasn't the first Bishop of Rome as Paul had established that by ordinating in each place where there was a church two men to be Bishops. That didn't matter because Rome needed Peter thinking only he had the keys to the kingdom never understanding that the Gospel is the key and God alone Who by grace regenerates men and women into His church and kingdom. That grand old man would be shocked at what has been said and done in his name.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    You agree with the Roman church on the catholic (ie. the fundamental) element. You have a catholic understanding of Christianity.
    I agree with many members of the Roman church but probably not with the Roman church itself. I'm increasingly coming to the view that some of its teachings aren't simply harmless add-ons but may actually compromise the Gospel. But obviously many members of the Roman church have a thoroughly biblical understanding of Christianity and either reject or are unaware of the more serious errors of their church, so while they are good Christians, their church itself might not be.
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  16. #116

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    As Jesus would be horrified by Christianity. Straight up said no gentiles.

    Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6)


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cope,

    Sorry to say but the RC system didn't come into play for some centuries later, long after the Gospel was being preached around the globe. So, Rome might agree on some principles of Scripture but then goes off on a tangent that is not Scriptural at all. Peter was never in Rome and even if he was he would have found that he wasn't the first Bishop of Rome as Paul had established that by ordinating in each place where there was a church two men to be Bishops. That didn't matter because Rome needed Peter thinking only he had the keys to the kingdom never understanding that the Gospel is the key and God alone Who by grace regenerates men and women into His church and kingdom. That grand old man would be shocked at what has been said and done in his name.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by wanderwegger View Post
    As Jesus would be horrified by Christianity. Straight up said no gentiles.

    Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6)
    wanderwegger,

    Yes, He came to the Jews first and yet even during that time we can read of a Centurian who was a follower of God. Paul carried on that custom of preaching to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. I believe that Mark's mother was a Gentile who followed Jesus as was Luke who investigated for a friend the authenticity of Jesus and His works. So, when Jesus commanded the disciples to go out into the world, world meaning all creeds and kinds, to preach the Gospel, He meant Jews only? No my friend, once again your seminary teaching has got it wrong. Oh by the way did the Samaritan women not become a believer after her conversation with Jesus? And then just to finish, what about all the men made righteous before God who were not Jews? Abel was not a Jew. Noah was not a Jew and neither were his family. But then consider what Paul says. A true Jew is not one circumcised in the flesh, rather one circumcised, born again, in the heart and that is what makes up the real Israel of God. Yes ole son Jew and Gentile born again of the Spirit of God are true Jews.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Matthew 15:24 I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

    Please only bible verses when conversing with me going forward. Your interpretations are very obscure and don't lend credence to your arguments. If we only use the Word we can find the truth.

    Assuming you know your bible well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    wanderwegger,

    Yes, He came to the Jews first and yet even during that time we can read of a Centurian who was a follower of God. Paul carried on that custom of preaching to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. I believe that Mark's mother was a Gentile who followed Jesus as was Luke who investigated for a friend the authenticity of Jesus and His works. So, when Jesus commanded the disciples to go out into the world, world meaning all creeds and kinds, to preach the Gospel, He meant Jews only? No my friend, once again your seminary teaching has got it wrong. Oh by the way did the Samaritan women not become a believer after her conversation with Jesus? And then just to finish, what about all the men made righteous before God who were not Jews? Abel was not a Jew. Noah was not a Jew and neither were his family. But then consider what Paul says. A true Jew is not one circumcised in the flesh, rather one circumcised, born again, in the heart and that is what makes up the real Israel of God. Yes ole son Jew and Gentile born again of the Spirit of God are true Jews.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    wanderwegger,

    So when Jesus told the disciples to go out into all the world and preach the good news it was for Jews only? All the world kind of looks to me as everyone in it, Jew and Gentile. Paul goes to great lengths explaining this yet you refuse to see it, why?

  20. #120

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Biblical sources. There was debate in the early church and even today amongst scholars whether Paul went rogue or was doing what Jesus said. But you know this.

    No KJB please. That translation is trash. Plenty of good english translations today created by non states hoping to enforce their views. Use any one of them.

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