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Thread: Theistic evolution makes no sense

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    In saying, " Let there be..." at creation six times, is that any different from parting waters twice or Him walking on water,
    No, none of it is any different because it is all completely and 100% false.

    or telling the centurian that his son lives
    No one rose from the dead.

    or calling out Lazarus from the stinking grave.
    Again, no one can, will, or has risen from the dead.

    Was the laying on of hands on little Fiona not a literal act that resulted in her eyes being corrected to the amazement of many doctors and nurses in our modern times?
    No, it was not.

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  2. #62
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Akar,

    I'm glad you answered so quickly because last night I watched a programme on youtube but since I don't know how to make links I'll give you the reference, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM82qxxskZE I do hope you watch it as I do everyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    In saying, " Let there be..." at creation six times, is that any different from parting waters twice or Him walking on water, or telling the centurian that his son lives or calling out Lazarus from the stinking grave. Was the laying on of hands on little Fiona not a literal act that resulted in her eyes being corrected to the amazement of many doctors and nurses in our modern times? No my friend, you're quite wrong.
    Yes, it is different. Because in the first case, genesis, the scripture tells us who created the world and that's the point of the passage, not how. In the other cases you mention, the scripture shows to us that God is above death, that He rules over death. That's the message for me from these passages. Bible tells us God and the Apostles did many more miracles that didn't make it in the scripture. As such, Bible is not a word for word historical exposition of what happened, but a guide on how to live our life close to what God wants. The passages are instructive, not explanations.

    In the case of little Fiona... I have no idea what you're talking about. God has a lot of tools and I am sure He helps countless little Fionas in ways that are not mystical; i.e. He puts the right doctor in their path. I am not outright denying that He could have chosen to reveal His power in the modern age, but I am skeptical that He did something like that. If He did, then it was necessary for His plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Akar,

    I'm glad you answered so quickly because last night I watched a programme on youtube but since I don't know how to make links I'll give you the reference, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM82qxxskZE I do hope you watch it as I do everyone else.
    2 hours documentary?
    I think you overestimate how much energy and time we're willing to put in this discussion. As far as I am concerned, I am not willing to watch that, or any kind of documentary. You see, my position is set and I am telling you why I don't take Genesis literally as the exact way the world was made not trying to see whether I am right or wrong, I am convinced I am right. I am not considering changing my stance. I am not in doubt about my view of the non-literal meaning of the Genesis. My beliefs are what they are.
    Last edited by alhoon; April 06, 2020 at 03:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    alhoon,

    The whole point of chapter 1 Genesis is to tell us that God created all things in six literal days by word of command, so, the emphasis is on Him having control over anything. The Hebrew writing by its own style verifies this according to the experts on the subject as the documentary explains. Chapter 2 sees the emphasis turning to what He created without diminishing His part in it, why? To let the Israelites know how they came to be and to turn them away from the false gods they had taken up with. God had Moses take them right back to their roots in Adam and Eve and a geneology to back it up. It wasn't something mythical, rather something literal. The documentary is all about how impossible long ages were in creation right down to the very foundations and that's what makes it so interesting as well as informative. Why is it important? It is so because the eternal lives of every human hangs on it.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    If you could provide links to the sources the documentary references that would be great. Two hours is a bit much to sift through, but I watched the first 20 minutes and it was riddled with errors. The Grand Canyon for example is, if anything, evidence against a global flood. Otherwise you would see places like that all over the world. There is a scientific consensus on the formation of the Grand Canyon and the consensus is that it formed over 5-6 million years.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Akar,

    I can imagine that it being riddled with error actually means that it was riddled with things you didn't want to see and so after 20 mins you had enough. C'mon ole fella, even if Jesus Christ appeared before you you still wouldn't change one bit.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Akar,

    I can imagine that it being riddled with error actually means that it was riddled with things you didn't want to see and so after 20 mins you had enough. C'mon ole fella, even if Jesus Christ appeared before you you still wouldn't change one bit.
    How about you tell us where exactly are in that wannabe documentary, for instance, calculations for the rain density that would be necessary to dig the Grand Canyon within specified timeframe? So we won't have to sift through it, or why it's unique despite being, according to it, result of worldwide phenomenon. It's bloody long, try to convince us it's worth watching first.

    I like to say, there are two types of people. If a fiery letters "I am God. Bow before me" appeared in the sky one day, the first would drop to their knees and pray. The second would grab telescopes and go looking for aliens with advanced technology and cruel sense of humour. And it's the second type that does most to improve human lives, because they seek answers that are logical, that can be applied and utilized.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Sar1n,

    Well, the Bible tells us that out of the deep burst waters as well as the rains that poured down thus covering the whole earth. There weren't any high mountains until then and these came about by earthquakes and volcanic activity when the waters began to recede. Each section of the documentary is about the different aspects of the flood and the extreme power invoked by it. The men in each section are PhD's in their respective fields so I imagine they know what they are talking about, but then if you're not interested what they have to say won't make any difference to what you already believe.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    the Bible tells us that out of the deep burst waters as well as the rains that poured down thus covering the whole earth
    So how does that account for their only being ONE Grand Canyon? Shouldn't there be locations for that all over the Earth? Also, how come the evidence from the Grand Canyon all points towards it being formed over slow erosion from a river, rather than water from above and below. How would something like that even cause the Canyon to be formed?

    you're not interested what they have to say
    I'm interested in what they have to say, if it's presented in a clear and scientific method. If you can link me to their journals and their work I would appreciate it and would read through it. A long ass documentary that's clearly biased towards one view point (doesn't inherently make it wrong, I'm just saying.) isn't the kind of objective science one can familiarize themselves with. That being said, I personally appreciate you making the effort to provide sources for your claims. Thank you.

    There weren't any high mountains until then
    Do you have a biblical source for that, even? I've never even heard that claim before, not even from young earth creationists.

    these came about by earthquakes and volcanic activity when the waters began to recede
    How exactly does this cause rapid-fire tectonic activity? And where did all of the water go?

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Akar,

    At creation it is said that the earth was a ball of water until God raised up the land, the land that was raised being replaced by the water apart from that which made the firmament above. The land was in one piece until the flood so when we read of mountains up until then we see high hills not the huge mountains we now have. As the deep broke through the land was separated meaning that as space became available volcanic as well as earthquake activity broke out as well. This was filled by the waters as they receded. So when we read of high mountains in these days hight hills were known as mounts. For example Jerusalem sits on mount Zion, Moriah and others yet they are hardly mountains as we know them. There are many grand canyon types but not on the same scale.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    The land was in one piece until the flood so when we read of mountains up until then we see high hills not the huge mountains we now have
    So you're saying that the earth was Pangaea until the flood, where it then split into the continents we know of today? And all of this happened in a 40 day period? Everything that happened in this GIF happened over 40 days and nights of heavy rain? Absurd.

    Not to mention that you're also implying that somehow there weren't any mountains on Pangaea. Which is also a pretty wild claim. Are you claiming that there was no tectonic or meteoric activity before the flood? No erosion?

    So when we read of high mountains in these days hight hills were known as mounts. For example Jerusalem sits on mount Zion, Moriah and others yet they are hardly mountains as we know them
    "Mount" is literally just short for mountain. It doesn't refer to a separate type of geographical formation. We call Everest "Mount" as well but I don't think you can argue that it's not a mountain. First of all, without any sources that show there weren't mountains more than 5-6000 years this is just wild conjecture. And secondly, what's to say that the Israelites just weren't familiar with higher mountains?

    A lack of mountains around the "holy land" is not evidence for a global flood. Not to mention that there are quite a few significant mountain ranges within reach of the ancient Israelites.

    As the deep broke through the land was separated meaning that as space became available volcanic as well as earthquake activity broke out as well. This was filled by the waters as they receded
    Please provide a scientific or at least biblical source for this.

    There are many grand canyon types but not on the same scale.
    Where? Please provide sources.
    Last edited by Akar; April 10, 2020 at 03:04 AM.

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  12. #72
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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Akar,

    On the first day of creation God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was a ball of water without form, that is anything else to be seen other than water and even that could not be seen until He declared, " Let there be light : and there was light." On the second day God divided the waters to make a firmament above as well as on the surface. On the third day God said, " Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear " : and it was so. Therefore from that reading we see that the land was in one piece because all the waters were in one place. Was there volcanic activity then? Possibly, but the water pressure would have been enough to keep it from interrupting creation as it continued. What I don't quite get is that you know if the West Coast of America falls into the sea the devastation it would cause or if the ice caps break away the devastation they would cause yet you cannot accept Noah's flood made Supernaturally not just naturally.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Akar,

    On the first day of creation God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was a ball of water without form, that is anything else to be seen other than water and even that could not be seen until He declared, " Let there be light : and there was light." On the second day God divided the waters to make a firmament above as well as on the surface. On the third day God said, " Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear " : and it was so. Therefore from that reading we see that the land was in one piece because all the waters were in one place. Was there volcanic activity then? Possibly, but the water pressure would have been enough to keep it from interrupting creation as it continued. What I don't quite get is that you know if the West Coast of America falls into the sea the devastation it would cause or if the ice caps break away the devastation they would cause yet you cannot accept Noah's flood made Supernaturally not just naturally.
    Citation needed.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    So you're ignoring my requests for sources, then?

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    So you're ignoring my requests for sources, then?
    Akar,

    You already know my sources because they are plainly written.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    You haven't even cited a single bible verse, mate. You just keep saying "The bible says"

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    You haven't even cited a single bible verse, mate. You just keep saying "The bible says"
    Akar,

    I used to give out chapter and verse but then realised that without context and flow people would twist the wording so I stopped doing that in the hope that people might lift up a Bible and read it knowing that God the Holy Spirit would reveal its meaning to any that wish to find the truth. If I say it is written, rest assured it is yet when you denounce it, clearly you have not read it.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Akar,

    I used to give out chapter and verse but then realised that without context and flow people would twist the wording so I stopped doing that in the hope that people might lift up a Bible and read it knowing that God the Holy Spirit would reveal its meaning to any that wish to find the truth. If I say it is written, rest assured it is yet when you denounce it, clearly you have not read it.
    It is certainly true that anti-theists use Biblical quotes out of their proper context. As you say, this is usually a consequence of their not having read the full text. A common mistake anti-theists make is citing Mosaic law at believers while not realising that the new covenant released humanity from the old.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    If I say it is written, rest assured it is yet when you denounce it,
    That's certainly convenient that everything you say is true and exactly as written. You should always provide sources and citations, how else do you expect people to read and verify your claims? What a ridiculous notion, to expect others to take everything you say to be exactly as written in the bible. Do you think you're the pope or something?

    clearly you have not read it.
    I've read my bible front to back dozens of times. I was raised Christian. My lack of belief does not stem from a lack of reading the bible, basics, and suggesting that it is displays your own ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It is certainly true that anti-theists use Biblical quotes out of their proper context. As you say, this is usually a consequence of their not having read the full text. A common mistake anti-theists make is citing Mosaic law at believers while not realising that the new covenant released humanity from the old.
    Oh we understand the whole new testament old testament thing, we just realize the absurdity of ignoring thousands of years of mosaic law and genocide and only reading the parts where god is nice.

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    Default Re: Theistic evolution makes no sense

    realising that the new covenant released humanity from the old.
    which is ridiculous. Show me where Jesus said anything like that. he came to reinforce the law, not over turn it. Where the old testament says "don't kill," Jesus wants you not even to harm. If anything he made Mosaic law more strict.

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